Hybrids worse than Tahoe

[PARAGON]

Hybrids Consume More Energy in Lifetime Than Chevrolet's Tahoe SUV
BANDON, Ore., March 31 /PRNewswire/ -- As Americans become increasingly interested in fuel economy and global warming, they are beginning to make choices about the vehicles they drive based on fuel economy and to a lesser degree emissions. But many of those choices aren't actually the best in terms of vehicle lifetime energy usage and the cost to society over the full lifetime of a car or truck.

CNW Marketing Research Inc. spent two years collecting data on the energy necessary to plan, build, sell, drive and dispose of a vehicle from initial concept to scrappage. This includes such minutia as plant to dealer fuel costs, employee driving distances, electricity usage per pound of material used in each vehicle and literally hundreds of other variables.

To put the data into understandable terms for consumers, it was translated into a "dollars per lifetime mile" figure. That is, the Energy Cost per mile driven.

The most Energy Expensive vehicle sold in the U.S. in calendar year 2005: Maybach at $11.58 per mile. The least expensive: Scion xB at $0.48 cents.

While neither of those figures is surprising, it is interesting that driving a hybrid vehicle costs more in terms of overall energy consumed than comparable non-hybrid vehicles.

For example, the Honda Accord Hybrid has an Energy Cost per Mile of $3.29 while the conventional Honda Accord is $2.18. Put simply, over the "Dust to Dust" lifetime of the Accord Hybrid, it will require about 50 percent more energy than the non-hybrid version.

One of the reasons hybrids cost more than non-hybrids is the manufacture, replacement and disposal of such items as batteries, electric motors (in addition to the conventional engine), lighter weight materials and complexity of the power package.

And while many consumers and environmentalists have targeted sport utility vehicles because of their lower fuel economy and/or perceived inefficiency as a means of transportation, the energy cost per mile shows at least some of that disdain is misplaced.

For example, while the industry average of all vehicles sold in the U.S. in 2005 was $2.28 cents per mile, the Hummer H3 (among most SUVs) was only $1.949 cents per mile. That figure is also lower than all currently offered hybrids and Honda Civic at $2.42 per mile.

"If a consumer is concerned about fuel economy because of family budgets or depleting oil supplies, it is perfectly logical to consider buying high- fuel-economy vehicles," says Art Spinella, president of CNW Marketing Research, Inc. "But if the concern is the broader issues such as environmental impact of energy usage, some high-mileage vehicles actually cost society more than conventional or even larger models over their lifetime.

"We believe this kind of data is important in a consumer's selection of transportation," says Spinella. "Basing purchase decisions solely on fuel economy or vehicle size does not get to the heart of the energy usage issue."

The goal of overall worldwide energy conservation and the cost to society in general -- not just the auto buyer -- can often be better addressed by being aware of a car or truck's "dust to dust" energy requirements, he said.

This study is not the end of the energy-usage discussion. "We hope to see a dialog begin that puts educated and aware consumers into energy policy decisions," Spinella said. "We undertook this research to see if perceptions (about energy efficiency) were true in the real world."

Source: CNW Marketing Research, Inc.

[HummBebe]

Uhhh....Paragon.....
http://elcova.com/groupee/forums/a/frm/f/6916043161

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by HummBebe:
Uhhh....Paragon.....
http://elcova.com/groupee/forums/a/frm/f/6916043161 figures... I don't think thats the first time Klaus and I have done that

[working Hummer]

this is interesting, I'm going to print that out and give it to all the tree huggers that rip into me at the gas stations. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif By the way "South Park" kind of had a spoof show on hybrid drivers. It was pretty funny. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[HummerNewbie]

Got to love this paragraph http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

For example, while the industry average of all vehicles sold in the U.S. in 2005 was $2.28 cents per mile, the Hummer H3 (among most SUVs) was only $1.949 cents per mile. That figure is also lower than all currently offered hybrids and Honda Civic at $2.42 per mile.

[HummBebe]

Originally posted by working Hummer:
this is interesting, I'm going to print that out and give it to all the tree huggers that rip into me at the gas stations. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif By the way "South Park" kind of had a spoof show on hybrid drivers. It was pretty funny. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


SMUG!!!!

[DennisAJC]

I see a new bumper sticker on the horizon. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[GeorgeSSSS]

Outstanding information. A Hummer is better for the environment than a Honda Hybrid.

Also: It takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than the ethanol gives off when it is used. Ethanol is a net energy loser. The farm lobby convinced the knot-headed congress to force people to use ethanol. If they would have left it to free market forces, ethanol would never exist.

[Klaus]

Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HummBebe:
Uhhh....Paragon.....
http://elcova.com/groupee/forums/a/frm/f/6916043161 figures... I don't think thats the first time Klaus and I have done that </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great minds think alike! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[westhillsat]

Great info!!!

[MovinH2]

Figures. Stupid little cars.

[Alan06SUT]

Nice! Some more ammo for when the tree huggers try to debate me! It makes sense.

[KenP]

And the H2 fell where?

[hmrlvr]

Very interesting article. Here's my take: The study's authors are right in the frame of the way they are measuring cost. However, it's important to note that the hybrids cost more over a life-time of energy usage because they are relatively new technology. The traditional internal combustion engine, as an established technology, is much cheaper to manufacture, market and dispose of. As hybrid technologies evolve, the cost will come down, as will the energy required to build them.



More to the point, for the last two years, and for the first time ever, oil and gas exploration companies have found less new reserves then the amount they refined and sold. The oil is running out. It may take a 100 years, but those last 50 will be ugly unless we invest in new technologies now and make them cheaper.

But, I still love my HUMMER

[Aubs]

YES, I DID IT! I found the numbers breakdown.

The H2 comes in at $3.027 per mile. That's just a bit more than the Honda Insight. Otherwise, it's got all the Hybrids beaten.
The H3 is way down on the list, well below the industry average.
The H1 comes in at $3.505 per mile. Unfortunately, all Hybrids are below that number. Ok, well, I should say all of the cheap hybrids. I don't see they new Lexus things on here.

Full List
Source: CNW Marketing Research, Inc.

Dust to Dust
Model E Cost Per Mile
Maybach $11.582
Phaeton $11.213
Rolls-Royce $10.660
Bentley $10.555
allroad quattro $5.595
A8 $4.964
A6 $4.963
LS 430 $4.734
Carrera GT $4.528
NSX $4.453
GS 430 $4.416
Q45 $4.243
Cayenne $4.146
Touareg $4.134
Lamborghini $4.009
S-Type $3.989
SLK class $3.982
Ferrari $3.962
M45 $3.876
GS 300 $3.861
GT $3.851
Range Rover $3.775
G class $3.711
Sequoia $3.672
S class $3.669
CLS class $3.668
H1 $3.505
CLK class $3.492
DTS $3.471
Armada $3.450
SC 430 $3.407
DeVille $3.385
XC90 $3.325
E class $3.313
RX330 $3.306
Seville $3.305
Excursion $3.304
80 series $3.301
Accord Hybrid $3.295
XLR $3.276
Prius $3.249
Civic Hybrid $3.238
LX 470 $3.229
Boxster $3.224
Escalade ESV $3.197
Land Cruiser $3.184
Escape Hybrid $3.178
STS $3.175
Corvette $3.158
5 Series $3.140
Suburban $3.134
Yukon XL $3.132
Expedition $3.058
XK $3.058
Maserati $3.055
FX35/45 $3.029
Aston Martin $3.028
H2 $3.027
R class $2.960
Insight $2.939
Tahoe $2.937
50 series $2.937
Yukon $2.936
7 Series $2.936
MDX $2.845
911 Carrera 4 $2.830
XJ $2.785
SRX $2.782
Pacifica $2.780
TT $2.768
RL $2.762
Town Car $2.756
Escalade $2.753
911 Carrera $2.738
Z8 $2.733
M3 $2.727
Golf/GTI $2.697
Savana/G Van $2.692
Titan $2.691
Econoline/Club Wagon $2.686
GX 470 $2.686
SL Coupe/Roadster $2.686
Navigator $2.617
L series $2.534
CL class $2.533
Discovery $2.525
Murano $2.510
Tundra $2.509
Highlander $2.490
LR3 $2.489
Ram pickup $2.484
Z4 $2.483
QX4 $2.483
Express/G Van $2.482
70 series $2.482
RX8 $2.482
M class $2.482
Freestyle/Windstar $2.481
Silverado $2.450
Sierra $2.450
SSR $2.442
Range Rover Sport $2.420
Sprinter Van $2.420
Civic $2.420
HHR $2.397
Rendezvous $2.392
F Series $2.392
X5 $2.368
Aviator $2.347
G6 $2.342
Mountaineer $2.336
EuroVan/T4 $2.294
Industry Straight Average $2.281
Classic $2.269
60 series $2.269
QX56 $2.269
Ram Van $2.267
6 Series $2.267
Lotus $2.267
Odyssey $2.267
Outlander $2.266
X3 $2.264
Montego $2.264
LaCrosse $2.245
B9 Tribeca $2.240
Montana SV6 $2.239
Impreza $2.225
Grand Am $2.224
Pathfinder $2.220
Town & Country $2.218
Tucson $2.215
Tribute $2.212
Terraza $2.212
Fusion $2.202
Milan $2.202
Pilot $2.197
Zephyr $2.196
Envoy $2.196
Econoline van $2.195
4Runner $2.193
350Z $2.193
Caravan/Grand Caravan $2.181
Sienna $2.180
Accord $2.180
Rainier $2.180
Montero $2.177
Viper $2.176
9-7X $2.169
Stratus $2.165
Venture $2.144
Relay $2.143
Montana $2.142
Montero Sport $2.123
TL $2.122
Quest $2.118
Uplander $2.117
A3 $2.096
Eclipse Spyder $2.079
Freestar $2.069
Monterey $2.069
Passat $2.052
Escalade EXT $2.048
Jetta wagon $2.046
CL $2.022
Xterra $2.022
Eclipse $2.021
Santa Fe $2.019
Magnum $2.019
Five Hundred $2.018
LS $2.017
Jetta $2.016
GTO $1.995
Optima $1.994
Sedona $1.994
Sonata $1.980
Avalanche $1.978
Torrent $1.974
Endeavor $1.974
Charger $1.974
Celica $1.969
Avalon $1.967
Maxima $1.966
300/300M $1.961
Camry $1.954
MPV $1.953
Escape $1.950
H3 $1.949
Mariner $1.948
RAV4 $1.948
Mark LT $1.944
Diamante $1.932
Malibu $1.919
Baja $1.909
Trooper $1.909
X-Type $1.908
Verona $1.908
Mini Cooper S $1.908
RSX $1.908
40 series $1.897
Solstice $1.880
ES 330 $1.852
I30/I35 $1.851
Legacy $1.849
Vue $1.847
IS 300 $1.833
Beetle $1.828
Forester $1.825
Equinox $1.821
Ridgeline $1.807
Element $1.807
Millenia $1.802
Lucerne $1.802
Mazda6 $1.796
Mini Cooper $1.795
Bonneville $1.782
G35 $1.777
A4/S4 $1.774
Intrepid $1.772
Mustang $1.758
Axiom $1.735
TSX $1.725
Safari $1.725
Astro $1.725
C class $1.699
MR2 Spyder $1.683
CTS $1.680
Mazda5 $1.679
Freelander $1.674
9-3 $1.636
330 $1.616
PT Cruiser $1.612
Park Avenue $1.556
9-2 $1.553
Aztek $1.542
Rodeo $1.542
Concorde $1.531
Ascender $1.531
Commander $1.531
325 $1.531
9-5 $1.529
Monte Carlo $1.506
Grand Cherokee $1.495
CR-V $1.478
XL-7 $1.477
Thunderbird $1.477
MX-5 Miata $1.471
Galant $1.465
Grand Prix $1.465
Century $1.455
S2000 $1.455
Sable $1.447
Taurus $1.446
Tiburon $1.439
Durango $1.429
Grand Marquis $1.418
Crown Victoria $1.417
Grand Vitara $1.414
Explorer $1.404
626 $1.397
Altima $1.381
LeSabre $1.372
TrailBlazer $1.363
Impala $1.357
Crossfire $1.323
Sorento $1.320
Blazer $1.295
Firebird $1.287
Camaro $1.286
XG350 $1.285
Sebring $1.283
Canyon $1.283
Sonoma $1.283
Amanti $1.263
Vitara $1.257
Rodeo Sport $1.225
Sportage $1.168
Regal $1.167
Frontier $1.160
Tacoma $1.147
Colorado $1.125
Raider $1.124
Liberty $1.099
B-Series $1.088
Dakota $1.014
Cobalt $1.013
Matrix ** $1.011
Vibe $1.011
Mazda3 $0.980
Ranger $0.968
Rio $0.964
Sentra $0.962
Aerio $0.888
Lancer $0.872
Spectra $0.864
Accent $0.852
tC $0.845
Forenza $0.840
Focus $0.803
S10 $0.779
Protégé $0.772
Aveo $0.765
Sunfire $0.758
Cavalier $0.757
xA $0.736
Corolla $0.732
Neon $0.728
Elantra $0.723
Ion $0.709
Echo $0.703
Tracker $0.694
Wrangler $0.604
Escort $0.568
xB $0.478

[PARAGON]

cool

[DDWH]

good info aubs!

[KenP]

GREAT list!!!111

[dochummer]

sweet!

[raptor2ride]

"The oil is running out. It may take a 100 years, but those last 50 will be ugly unless we invest in new technologies now and make them cheaper."



HaHAHA,Wait a minute! 80% of the worlds oil is in Alaska and the Gulf! You have been trained by the media to think there is a oil shortage and there is global warming.

Go back and research the papers and reports that were done in the mid to late 70s. Due to the cold weather it was said we were headed to a possible ice age. It was reported that the ice caps were getting bigger.
Today they just reported on the news that the earths climate changes were now thought to be because of the sun and the changes it goes through.
No matter how you see it the earth will continue to go through temperature changes no matter WHAT humans do.

[working Hummer]

http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[KenP]

Originally posted by raptor2ride:
"The oil is running out. It may take a 100 years, but those last 50 will be ugly unless we invest in new technologies now and make them cheaper."



HaHAHA,Wait a minute! 80% of the worlds oil is in Alaska and the Gulf! You have been trained by the media to think there is a oil shortage and there is global warming.

Go back and research the papers and reports that were done in the mid to late 70s. Due to the cold weather it was said we were headed to a possible ice age. It was reported that the ice caps were getting bigger.
Today they just reported on the news that the earths climate changes were now thought to be because of the sun and the changes it goes through.
No matter how you see it the earth will continue to go through temperature changes no matter WHAT humans do. Another reason to open up ANWAR!!!! I've said it before and I'll keep saying it!!!!

[PackerFever]

I just got out of a Listing Appointment, (I sell Homes), with a Prius owner who writes for many envronmental magazines and is moving to Alaska.

Everything was going well, I usually get the listing once I acutally have a face to face meeting.

About half way through the meeting the homeowner looked outside and noticed that my H3 was parked next to his Prius....I am pretty sure that killed all the good Karma I had going in the meeting. Even after I showed him how much money he would be saving going with my company I believe he thought he would be selling his soul if he were to list with anyone who drove a Hummer. I kept it light hearted and told him how we get reasonable MPG compared to most SUV's and how we, my family, are not earth rapers.....his comment "But it is still a Hummer." Trying to remain friendly and jovial I mentioned how his other vehicle, a very old pickumup truck, was not doing anyone any favors...he said when he bought the new vehicle he did it to help save the earth and how since he is a researcher there is no doubt that Humans are the cause of Global Warming.

It was clear to both of us that we come from different worlds and I don't think he is going to work with me. So as he followed me out to my car and looked inside it...maybe I should have let him show me his Prius but I am not interested...mainly becaue of size, ability, and safety, I commented on the article quoted in this thread. About how the cost of Technology and Disposal actually makes the Prius a higher cost per mile vehicle than mine....he didn't belive me but decided to write it off as being worth it in order to do his part to save the earth.

I will follow up with him and if I don't get the Listing I will probably send him the stats and take comfort in knowing that he is paying more per mile, more to list his home with someone else, and is driving a smaller, less safe, vehicle and if he wants to go to his special areas to observe the earth and the human destruction we are causing he will have to drive his old and tired pickumup truck to get there....what an irony.


I did rev the engine a little more as I was leaving his neighborhood and giggled while I did it. ;)

[cl998]

Does anyone have any recent and reputable links on this subject? I have a battle to fight with a co-worker.

[zmanH2]

I really don't get it all :twak:

Example:
How can a $65k Hummer H2 be about the same money factor compared to a $30k Toyota Prius assuming they both last 200k miles (dust-to-dust)? Can somebody elaborate please.

In fact here's a question from one of my co-workers already. He owns an Infiniti FX-45:

"I think there is a big flaw in the analysis of this data.
I looked at a few Nissan products with the same power trains.

The, FX35/45 $3.029 most FX?s are 3.5 L but some are 4.5 L ,
Murano $2.510 has the 3.5 L V-6,
350Z $2.193 has the 3.5 L V-6
G35 $1.777 has the 3.5 L V-6
Some Altimas have 3.5 L V-6s and others have 2.5L 4 cyl Altima $1.381
There is some fuel economy differences, but not a whole lot.
I would like a table so we could see how much of this energy cost is fuel, batteries, waste disposal, and materials on each car.
The fuel costs have to be way out of line. At $3.00 per gallon and 15 mpg, I get $0.20 per mile.
Top cost on a $45,000 car over 150,000 miles is $0.30 for car plus $0.20 for fuel which is $0.50 per mile.
I suppose we could add a little for oil changes, tires, and parts over the car lifetime, but insurance and the like are not energy costs. Every energy cost per mile far exceeds my quick and dirty maximum cost analysis. I looked at total dollars spent that could be attributed to energy costs, so either I am missing something, this study is seriously flawed or is propaganda. There are a lot of flat earth society type reports, so it is hard to separate the truth from fiction."

[Gunzz]

OK just my thoughts. I think people on welfare are the cause of global warming. I believe that since they cannot afford a car and have to take those smog spewing city buses back and forth everywhere that they are the direct cause of it. And with SO many welfare recipients taking the buses they are overloading the system and causing more buses to be put on the streets even spewing more pollution and smog into the air.

SO they should leave us Hummer owners alone and make these bus taking welfare people get jobs and stop taking the black smoke pouring public transportion system. Then they to could buy Hummers and lower my tax load, so that I could contribute more money to alternative fuel exploration.

[OldHiker]

:iagree:

:jump:

[Prelector]

Just think about those numbers posted earlier in the thread. Do you really think owners of everyday cars are spending $3 per mile to operate them? That's about $36,000 per year.

Clearly, the researchers engaged in some wild and crazy assumptions. Personally, seeing results like these would have sent me back to the drawing board.

My blog post on the study:

http://www.truedelta.com/blog/?p=48

First, quoting and referencing yourself to prove your own point is "wild and crazy"... Try referencing a valid source of some kind to back up your assertions, otherwise it's all just hot air...

Second, your rebuttal completely misses the mark as to what the report is showing: The report calculates a TOTAL COST per driven mile of a vehicle. That is, the total cost to manufacture, operate, and dispose of the vehicle, amortized over the total life miles of the vehicle as reported by the manufacturer; they are not saying the vehicle costs $.492 per mile to OPERATE (the numbers you're reporting).

When you figure in the costs to manufacture the vehicle, and the costs to destroy the vehicle at the end of it's life, the number they came up with is $.492. As such, the miles driven per year is completely irrelevant, and you can't come up with a yearly cost of the vehicle, since that would be forcing the numbers into something they don't fit.

They are saying that if you built this vehicle yourself, from scratch (but using the manufacturers facilites and costs), drove this vehicle for it's entire lifetime miles, then had to destroy the vehicle yourself (back to scratch?). The cost to you would figure out to $.492 per mile.

Now, I'm not saying their figures are correct, I'm explaining what their figures show.