Good Guy VS. Bad Guy

[Steve R]

Here's the good guy, a backwoods hunter from Alabama serving in our military.

[Steve R]

Here's the good guy, a backwoods hunter from Alabama serving in our military.

[Steve R]

And here's what he did with ONE round out of his 50-cal sniper rifle. You'll notice the cowardly terrorist had his suicide jacket on and was looking to bring some people with him to meet his pig-god Allah.

Looks like he'll be meeting allah alone, but instead of 100 virgins, looks like he'll be needing a little head instead.

Suck it up, we have the right to protect ourselves!


[The image was removed with all respect to Steve R and our men and women in the military]

[Steve R]

And here's what he did with ONE round out of his 50-cal sniper rifle. You'll notice the cowardly terrorist had his suicide jacket on and was looking to bring some people with him to meet his pig-god Allah.

Looks like he'll be meeting allah alone, but instead of 100 virgins, looks like he'll be needing a little head instead.

Suck it up, we have the right to protect ourselves!


[The image was removed with all respect to Steve R and our men and women in the military]

[Steve R]

You suppose that hurt him a bit?

Nahhhh.....nothing a few aspirin won't clear-up

[Steve R]

You suppose that hurt him a bit?

Nahhhh.....nothing a few aspirin won't clear-up

[partsguy]

wholly crapeye's open now

[partsguy]

wholly crapeye's open now

[ROX]

Thanks, now I'm going to have nightmares. Couldn't he have used anything bigger? I can't find a little picture of the smiley face puking.

[ROX]

Thanks, now I'm going to have nightmares. Couldn't he have used anything bigger? I can't find a little picture of the smiley face puking.

[KenP]

Nice shot!http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/blackeye/snipersmilie.gif

[KenP]

Nice shot!http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/blackeye/snipersmilie.gif

[partsguy]

Blue socks with white sneakers http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gifSHUT UP! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[partsguy]

Blue socks with white sneakers http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gifSHUT UP! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Fubar]

God Bless this solder. I hope he shoots more of these bastards.

[Fubar]

God Bless this solder. I hope he shoots more of these bastards.

[Albie]

He popped him b/c that guy had wood

[Albie]

He popped him b/c that guy had wood

[PARAGON]

Not to discount the photos and the kill, but rules of engagement used to not allow a Barrett M82A1 .50BMG to be used as an anti-personnel weapon. One had to be firing on a fortified position or vehicle and if a body got smoked, it was considered collateral. Of course, with a range out to 2000 meters it does allow one to snipe these chumps before they can get close enough to hurt someone else and maybe it's being allowed there now.

[PARAGON]

Not to discount the photos and the kill, but rules of engagement used to not allow a Barrett M82A1 .50BMG to be used as an anti-personnel weapon. One had to be firing on a fortified position or vehicle and if a body got smoked, it was considered collateral. Of course, with a range out to 2000 meters it does allow one to snipe these chumps before they can get close enough to hurt someone else and maybe it's being allowed there now.

[Kevin B]

If thats a M821A1 50 cal. Im thinking the rules have changed or why the scope http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

BTW Steve, maybe a "graphic photo" warning would be in order. Not to piss on the campfire but my 10 year old and I check this site out togather http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Any posts by Drty are to be expected but YOU slipped that one by http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

[Kevin B]

If thats a M821A1 50 cal. Im thinking the rules have changed or why the scope http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

BTW Steve, maybe a "graphic photo" warning would be in order. Not to piss on the campfire but my 10 year old and I check this site out togather http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Any posts by Drty are to be expected but YOU slipped that one by http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

[PARAGON]

If I remember correctly it was brought into service as an anti-armor round and was scoped with a low (10x or so) power scope. It was to be used for armor such as taking down a helo or disabling a vehicle, and putting out HE rounds that would explode at implacements. But that gun was brought into service about 15 years ago or so, and I have no idea. I just remember a time when things were so panty-anty and that's the reason we have FMJ NATO rounds and not some super-duper ballistic tip hollow points to fire at the SOB's that are firing back.

[PARAGON]

If I remember correctly it was brought into service as an anti-armor round and was scoped with a low (10x or so) power scope. It was to be used for armor such as taking down a helo or disabling a vehicle, and putting out HE rounds that would explode at implacements. But that gun was brought into service about 15 years ago or so, and I have no idea. I just remember a time when things were so panty-anty and that's the reason we have FMJ NATO rounds and not some super-duper ballistic tip hollow points to fire at the SOB's that are firing back.

[DRTYFN]

BOO YAH!!!!!

I wish I could go over there and help with the sniping. It'd be just like taking squirrels & rock chucks at 200 yards with a varmint rifle.

[DRTYFN]

BOO YAH!!!!!

I wish I could go over there and help with the sniping. It'd be just like taking squirrels & rock chucks at 200 yards with a varmint rifle.

[DennisAJC]

I have this strange craving for strawberries and cream.

[DennisAJC]

I have this strange craving for strawberries and cream.

[RI Hummer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Not to discount the photos and the kill, but rules of engagement used to not allow a Barrett M82A1 .50BMG to be used as an anti-personnel weapon. One had to be firing on a fortified position or vehicle and if a body got smoked, it was considered collateral. Of course, with a range out to 2000 meters it does allow one to snipe these chumps before they can get close enough to hurt someone else and maybe it's being allowed there now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That depends on the circumstance. If the individual involved saw (or his spotter) the terrorist making threatning actions towards other US forces or civilians under US protection, his only course of action at the time may have been the use of the weapon in question. ROE (Rules Of Engagement) would allow the use of the weapon for this type of kill.

I have to agree with N2ITNSD, Try a warning before posting this kind of stuff.

RI



Rules of Engagement


The Commander’s Rules for

The Use of Force

ROE 101

Back to the Basics

ROE 101: Fundamental Concepts

ROE always fall into one of two distinct functional categories:

SELF DEFENSE

or

MISSION ACCOMPLISHMENT

ROE 101: Fundamental Concepts

ROE are not merely a restatement of the Law of War, but the commander’s rules for the use of force

ROE 101: Fundamental Concepts

ROE may be generally restrictive or generally permissive, depending on the mission

ROE 101: Fundamental Concepts

JCS Standing Rules of Engagement (CJCSI 3121.01A, 15 JAN 00)

Apply to US forces

During military attacks against the US and

During ALL military operations, contingencies, and terrorist attacks occurring outside US territory

Not to be confused with Rules for Use of Force (peacetime operations within US territory)

ROE 101: Definitions

Hostile Act

An attack or other use of force

Against US and US forces (and others as designated)

Including force used directly to preclude or impede the mission and/or duties of US forces

CJCSI 3121.01A, para. 5(g)

ROE 101: Definitions

Hostile Intent

The threat of imminent use of force

Against the US and US Forces (and others as designated)

Including threat to use force to preclude or impede the mission and/or duties of US forces


CJCSI 3121.01A, para. 5(h)

ROE 101: Definitions

Hostile Force

Any civilian, paramilitary, or military force, or terrorist(s)

With or without national designation

That has committed hostile act, exhibited hostile intent

Or has been declared hostile by appropriate authority

CJCSI 3121.01A, para. 5(i)

ROE 101: Self Defense

The inherent right to use all necessary means available and to take all appropriate actions to defend oneself, unit, other US forces from a hostile act or demonstrated hostile intent.

For commanders, self-defense is an obligation.

ROE 101: Self Defense

Elements of Self-Defense CJCSI 3121.01A, 5f.

At all times, the requirements of necessity and proportionality will form the basis for judgment as to what constitutes an appropriate response (para. 5a.)

Necessity: Exists when a hostile act occurs or when a force or terrorist(s) exhibits hostile intent

Proportionality: Force used to counter a hostile act or demonstrated hostile intent must be reasonable in intensity, duration and magnitude based on all facts known at the time.

ROE 101: Self Defense

Who and What can I defend?

Host nation has principal responsibility for defending US nationals and their property (amplification of this rule is confidential).

Under certain circumstances, self-defense right may extend to US nationals and their property and/or US commercial assets.

NCA must approve defense of non-US forces, foreign nationals and their property. (Collective SD)

[RI Hummer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Not to discount the photos and the kill, but rules of engagement used to not allow a Barrett M82A1 .50BMG to be used as an anti-personnel weapon. One had to be firing on a fortified position or vehicle and if a body got smoked, it was considered collateral. Of course, with a range out to 2000 meters it does allow one to snipe these chumps before they can get close enough to hurt someone else and maybe it's being allowed there now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That depends on the circumstance. If the individual involved saw (or his spotter) the terrorist making threatning actions towards other US forces or civilians under US protection, his only course of action at the time may have been the use of the weapon in question. ROE (Rules Of Engagement) would allow the use of the weapon for this type of kill.

I have to agree with N2ITNSD, Try a warning before posting this kind of stuff.

RI



Rules of Engagement


The Commander’s Rules for

The Use of Force

ROE 101

Back to the Basics

ROE 101: Fundamental Concepts

ROE always fall into one of two distinct functional categories:

SELF DEFENSE

or

MISSION ACCOMPLISHMENT

ROE 101: Fundamental Concepts

ROE are not merely a restatement of the Law of War, but the commander’s rules for the use of force

ROE 101: Fundamental Concepts

ROE may be generally restrictive or generally permissive, depending on the mission

ROE 101: Fundamental Concepts

JCS Standing Rules of Engagement (CJCSI 3121.01A, 15 JAN 00)

Apply to US forces

During military attacks against the US and

During ALL military operations, contingencies, and terrorist attacks occurring outside US territory

Not to be confused with Rules for Use of Force (peacetime operations within US territory)

ROE 101: Definitions

Hostile Act

An attack or other use of force

Against US and US forces (and others as designated)

Including force used directly to preclude or impede the mission and/or duties of US forces

CJCSI 3121.01A, para. 5(g)

ROE 101: Definitions

Hostile Intent

The threat of imminent use of force

Against the US and US Forces (and others as designated)

Including threat to use force to preclude or impede the mission and/or duties of US forces


CJCSI 3121.01A, para. 5(h)

ROE 101: Definitions

Hostile Force

Any civilian, paramilitary, or military force, or terrorist(s)

With or without national designation

That has committed hostile act, exhibited hostile intent

Or has been declared hostile by appropriate authority

CJCSI 3121.01A, para. 5(i)

ROE 101: Self Defense

The inherent right to use all necessary means available and to take all appropriate actions to defend oneself, unit, other US forces from a hostile act or demonstrated hostile intent.

For commanders, self-defense is an obligation.

ROE 101: Self Defense

Elements of Self-Defense CJCSI 3121.01A, 5f.

At all times, the requirements of necessity and proportionality will form the basis for judgment as to what constitutes an appropriate response (para. 5a.)

Necessity: Exists when a hostile act occurs or when a force or terrorist(s) exhibits hostile intent

Proportionality: Force used to counter a hostile act or demonstrated hostile intent must be reasonable in intensity, duration and magnitude based on all facts known at the time.

ROE 101: Self Defense

Who and What can I defend?

Host nation has principal responsibility for defending US nationals and their property (amplification of this rule is confidential).

Under certain circumstances, self-defense right may extend to US nationals and their property and/or US commercial assets.

NCA must approve defense of non-US forces, foreign nationals and their property. (Collective SD)

[PARAGON]

Well, if you remember the video from the Apache smoking a couple of guys next to a tractor out in a field using his 30mm chain gun. That was against personnel with hostile intent. So, sniping a bomb-toter with a .50 cal should easily fall within ROE there.

I am just happy to see that we have guys there deployed with that kind of hardware. Easily take out unfriendlies from a distance before they can get into an area that would do damage or before they get to detonate. Hell I think every squad over there should have one and along with his eyes provide cover while they are on a maneuver.

[PARAGON]

Well, if you remember the video from the Apache smoking a couple of guys next to a tractor out in a field using his 30mm chain gun. That was against personnel with hostile intent. So, sniping a bomb-toter with a .50 cal should easily fall within ROE there.

I am just happy to see that we have guys there deployed with that kind of hardware. Easily take out unfriendlies from a distance before they can get into an area that would do damage or before they get to detonate. Hell I think every squad over there should have one and along with his eyes provide cover while they are on a maneuver.

[Kevin B]

I saw a pretty cool link of a guy getting wacked (pretty much ended up like the guy above) who stepped out in the street shouldering a R.P.G (I think). Has anyone seen that link?

[Kevin B]

I saw a pretty cool link of a guy getting wacked (pretty much ended up like the guy above) who stepped out in the street shouldering a R.P.G (I think). Has anyone seen that link?

[DRTYFN]

Oh yeah!!! That one REALLY ROCKS!!!
It's called Don't bring a rifle to a tank fight.

Anyone wants it PM me with an email address.

[DRTYFN]

Oh yeah!!! That one REALLY ROCKS!!!
It's called Don't bring a rifle to a tank fight.

Anyone wants it PM me with an email address.

[PARAGON]

Here is a link to the video of the Apache "Smoke em"

http://www.indybay.org/uploads/hell_movie.mov

[PARAGON]

Here is a link to the video of the Apache "Smoke em"

http://www.indybay.org/uploads/hell_movie.mov

[PARAGON]

Here is another Apache video

http://globalresearch.ca/images/Massacre%20of%20Civilians.wmv

[PARAGON]

Here is another Apache video

http://globalresearch.ca/images/Massacre%20of%20Civilians.wmv

[PARAGON]

here is a better video of the first apache

http://www.globalresearch.ca/audiovideo/apachehit.mpg

[PARAGON]

here is a better video of the first apache

http://www.globalresearch.ca/audiovideo/apachehit.mpg

[Fastest H-Town Realtor]

1-When that man gets state-side, I want to buy him all the Shiner Bock he can drink.

2-A graphic warning woulda been nice...not for me,but for others who may not have wanted to view that...

[Fastest H-Town Realtor]

1-When that man gets state-side, I want to buy him all the Shiner Bock he can drink.

2-A graphic warning woulda been nice...not for me,but for others who may not have wanted to view that...

[PARAGON]

some more good videos

http://dover.warblogging.com/IMG_0206.MOV

http://go.fark.com/cgi/fark/go.pl?IDLink=1215086&location=http://members.cox.net/macallan_the/falluja.asf

http://www.military.com/Registration/Login?strGotoURL=http://www.military.com/pics/C130_Gunship.wmv

[PARAGON]

some more good videos

http://dover.warblogging.com/IMG_0206.MOV

http://go.fark.com/cgi/fark/go.pl?IDLink=1215086&location=http://members.cox.net/macallan_the/falluja.asf

http://www.military.com/Registration/Login?strGotoURL=http://www.military.com/pics/C130_Gunship.wmv

[DennisAJC]

Anyone have a copy of the one where they were watching two do it in the car. That one was funny yet erotic. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[DennisAJC]

Anyone have a copy of the one where they were watching two do it in the car. That one was funny yet erotic. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[GeorgeSSSS]

I'm told that Paragon's second excellent video is not actually an Apache, but an F-16 that was supposed to be bombing the building that the 30 or so terrorists in the scene were vacating to join in a firefight against our U.S. soldiers. While the 500 lb smart bomb was in the air, the pilot got permission to re-direct it against the guys in the street -- -- with really terrific results. You can see the sighting device start out on the building and then move over to the walking deadmen. Well spent tax dollars, in my opinion.

Here's to the good guys.

George

[GeorgeSSSS]

I'm told that Paragon's second excellent video is not actually an Apache, but an F-16 that was supposed to be bombing the building that the 30 or so terrorists in the scene were vacating to join in a firefight against our U.S. soldiers. While the 500 lb smart bomb was in the air, the pilot got permission to re-direct it against the guys in the street -- -- with really terrific results. You can see the sighting device start out on the building and then move over to the walking deadmen. Well spent tax dollars, in my opinion.

Here's to the good guys.

George

[Fubar]

outstanding keep em coming.

[Fubar]

outstanding keep em coming.

[Steve R]

My apologies....a "graphic warning" notice truly should and would have been in order.

It's just not too often I get to contribute something so "interesting" and I was a bit hasty with posting it.

[Steve R]

My apologies....a "graphic warning" notice truly should and would have been in order.

It's just not too often I get to contribute something so "interesting" and I was a bit hasty with posting it.

[PARAGON]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GeorgeSSSS:
I'm told that Paragon's second excellent video is not actually an Apache, but an F-16 that was supposed to be bombing the building that the 30 or so terrorists in the scene were vacating to join in a firefight against our U.S. soldiers. While the 500 lb smart bomb was in the air, the pilot got permission to re-direct it against the guys in the street -- -- with really terrific results. You can see the sighting device start out on the building and then move over to the walking deadmen. Well spent tax dollars, in my opinion.

Here's to the good guys.

George <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I read somewhere that the video was from an Apache, but I also read elsewhere that a Fighter/Bomber did drop the bomb where you see the explosion and that the Apache was on scene and maybe directing the fighter/bomber. This video is being used as propaganda that we just indiscriminately kill civis.

[PARAGON]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GeorgeSSSS:
I'm told that Paragon's second excellent video is not actually an Apache, but an F-16 that was supposed to be bombing the building that the 30 or so terrorists in the scene were vacating to join in a firefight against our U.S. soldiers. While the 500 lb smart bomb was in the air, the pilot got permission to re-direct it against the guys in the street -- -- with really terrific results. You can see the sighting device start out on the building and then move over to the walking deadmen. Well spent tax dollars, in my opinion.

Here's to the good guys.

George <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I read somewhere that the video was from an Apache, but I also read elsewhere that a Fighter/Bomber did drop the bomb where you see the explosion and that the Apache was on scene and maybe directing the fighter/bomber. This video is being used as propaganda that we just indiscriminately kill civis.

[GeorgeSSSS]

Paragon: Thanks for posting it. I saw it a while back and lost it. I didn't realize it was being used for anti-U.S. propoganga.

George

[GeorgeSSSS]

Paragon: Thanks for posting it. I saw it a while back and lost it. I didn't realize it was being used for anti-U.S. propoganga.

George

[Big Z]

Now That's Gun Control!

[Big Z]

Now That's Gun Control!

[Rory]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DennisAJC:
Anyone have a copy of the one where they were watching two do it in the car. That one was funny yet erotic. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I found it: Apache Voyeur Video (http://www.not5150.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&wrap=Extreme%20Audio%20and%20Video%20Clips&Itemid=40)

[Rory]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DennisAJC:
Anyone have a copy of the one where they were watching two do it in the car. That one was funny yet erotic. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I found it: Apache Voyeur Video (http://www.not5150.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&wrap=Extreme%20Audio%20and%20Video%20Clips&Itemid=40)

[DennisAJC]

AAAAWWWWWW YAAAAAAAAAAA BOIEEEEEE!!!!! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Nice find Rory.

[DennisAJC]

AAAAWWWWWW YAAAAAAAAAAA BOIEEEEEE!!!!! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Nice find Rory.

[DRTYFN]

Ok, I haven't seen this one before. It ROCKS!!!!

Major Gatling Fun (http://www.kaktuz.com/1046-US_Fire_Power_Unleashed.html)

[GeorgeSSSS]

In another era, that kind of shooting was known as "raining pee on the VC."

[PARAGON]

http://www.gdatp.com/products/lethality/gau19/gau19_multimedia/1.htm

[PARAGON]

http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/guns/firepower.mpg

[BlackDragon]

Our Hummers we may have in common, but this kinda gung-ho hero worship of stoopid stuff like guns is where I've gotta stand off from this party. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[GeorgeSSSS]

Paragon:

Very nice. Some people have all the fun.

[Kevin B]

Originally posted by BlackDragon:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>but this kinda gung-ho hero worship of stoopid stuff like guns is where I've gotta stand off from this party. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then please feel free to stand down!

BTW stupid you spelled stupid wrong, how ironic http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.

[Klaus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlackDragon:
Our Hummers we may have in common, but this kinda gung-ho hero worship of stoopid stuff like guns is where I've gotta stand off from this party. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

[PARAGON]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlackDragon:
....this kinda gung-ho hero worship of stoopid stuff like guns is where I've gotta stand off from this party. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree. Gung-ho hero worship of stoopid stuff like guns is stoopid. Now having a complete love of their design, simplicity and complexity all together, their artistic precision and the love of blowing things apart with that is one of the greatest thing we have.....oops, sorry. Now I realize why you have crab up your butt about this. You can't have this kind of fun where you live.

Seeing as how you don't undertand the application of this type of enjoyment, depart you should.

[BlackDragon]

Human life is a very precious thing. Getting some kind of kick out of ripping the head of an insane animal (like the one in the second picture) apart surely makes the distance between that animal and the person taking pleasure from it smaller than it should be?

I drive a car that looks like a tank because design is cool. Design is creative, and creation is life. Using Design to create death is not cool and it never will be.

[PARAGON]

So when you roll over that little ant with your tank and create death, you are no longer cool. Oh....what about the little bugs that you squash against your windshield while driving your tank around.

You see, anything designed can be utilized to "create death." It is how it is applied. I choose to go out and shoot varmints, targets, rocks whatever and do so with responsibility. I take it you would rather your soldiers defend your country with toothpicks and cheese. I can go on and on about how narrow-minded this line of thought can be. But I digress, my fingers are tired.

[BlackDragon]

I also eat meat, but as I mentioned in my last post, this was in reference to Human life.

The terrorists are scum, and I realise that this is a side effect of us having to defend ourselves against these irrational attacks, but the problem still remains that it shouldn't be glorified. That was my only gripe here.

Just to back up the statement I made earlier - I gave up eating red meat a few years ago, because I figured it wasn't good to eat something I wouldn't be OK with killing myself. I eat poultry and fish - I'd sooner keep a cow as a pet than a future meal.

Can't say I'd consider myself narrow minded either, and other than this opinion and the fact that I own a Hummer, you don't know me well enough to make that call. I just don't like arbitrarily killing stuff and celebrating it - what is narrow minded about that?

[PARAGON]

Actually, I didn't say you were narrow-minded. My point is that to belittle one because they like firearms by using the argument that guns kill people or animals, is being very narrow-minded.

You said you don't like arbitrarily killing stuff, but you do everyday. I guess bugs don't qualify because that makes it easier for you to have this view. I fire weapons nearly every weekend, and kill maybe 10 animals through the course of a year. Many are in competions where they shoot thousands of rounds and the whole time they are killing little paper targets.

So, do I still believe a very narrow-minded line of thought is being applied here. Yes

[BlackDragon]

And your argument is being scaled to fit your needs.

You'll notice above that I've never mentioned that I think there should be no killing - what I said was that the glorification of killing is bad.

And do I feel bad about the dead bugs? Sure! But I'd feel a hell of a lot worse if those bugs were people...

[DennisAJC]

The comparison of expressing pleasure killing human life and unintentionally killing a bug.....

Not many things make me shake my head but..... http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif



DRAGON!!!!! Show some pics of your new baby!!!! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[LasVegas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DennisAJC:

DRAGON!!!!! Show some pics of your new baby!!!! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pay attention to the posts you inattentive newbie!

http://elcova.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=2826088551&f=5106011751&m=2431044001

[DennisAJC]

DOH!!!! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I've actually seen those pics of Dragon's ugly mug. I want some action pics!

[LasVegas]

DRAGON....I'm with you, mostly. I own guns and wouldn't hesitate one second to use them defending myself, my family, OR my dogs. And I want the continued right to own them. But using them to kill defenseless animals in this day & age don't get it. Give the weapon to the animals and let them stalk the human! See how they like it. Better yet, try hunting/killing animals with just yourself and what mother nature provides you and see who's the smarter. And no, before anyone asks I don't belong to PETA. I just respect animals and consider many of them smarter than some people.

[BlackDragon]

Huh? I'm kinda getting the impression that people are thinking I'm saying it's OK to kill animals - I'm not! Life is precious, and my comments about "I'll only eat what I could kill" are based on if it became a necessity to do so - out of choice, I wouldn't kill anything!!

[Kevin B]

I eat animals because they are made of meat. I find it funny that vegetarians make hamburger shapped patties out of vegetablas http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif. If you want to eat vegetables eat vegetables, don't try to desguise them as a meat product.

The rabbits that eat my lawn get killed. Do I feel bad about killing them? No. Would I kill a human eating my lawn? No. Would I kill a terrorist if I were in the military? Yes. All of the videos (i think) were military, I think that makes them different.

L.V. please explain, I must be one of the stupid ones your refering to http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I just respect animals and consider many of them smarter than people.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Klaus]

I'm curious - How do you animal rights people rationalize purchasing a vehicle with a leather interior?

[GeorgeSSSS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I'm curious - How do you animal rights people rationalize purchasing a vehicle with a leather interior? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Answer: They keep their eyes closed.

[LasVegas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by N2ITNSD:

L.V. please explain, I must be one of the stupid ones your refering to http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif[QUOTE]I just respect animals and consider many of them smarter than people. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't think I used the word "stupid" in my post. That's your interpretation.

1. I eat meat.
2. I believe those animals we eat should be slaughtered in a humane manner.
3. How many people vs animals were lost in the Tsunami?
4. Animals for the most part have never set out to stalk and kill humans. But we in our infinite "wisdom" call it sport while using enough firepower to blow up the countryside and then proud of ourselves because we're "smarter" than them. Bit lopsided isn't it?
5. I believe in controlled hunting for the betterment of a species.
6. I believe in the war in Iraq. The bad guys that get killed there deserve it.

Just had to cover as many bases as possible to avoid as much flaming as possible.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a PETA nut. I've just spent enough time around animals to respect their intelligence, feelings and willingness to give more than they receive. Unfortunately I can't say the same about all the people I've known. Call it whatever you want.

[Kevin B]

So what would be the opposite of smarter be then http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif.

[LasVegas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by N2ITNSD:
So what would be the opposite of smarter be then http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Less smarter

[Kevin B]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Less smarter
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif O.K. my bad http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[LasVegas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Klaus:
I'm curious - How do you animal rights people rationalize purchasing a vehicle with a leather interior? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Klaus. I'm not an animal "rights" person. I love my leather interior and have 6 sheepskin pelt rugs in various places in my home. I just don't believe in killing for the sake of killing or personal pleasure, human or animal.

[Klaus]

Fair enough LV. I love animals as well. I once told my apartment manager that it would be extremely bad if someone let my cat out of my apartment while I was not there. She then asked me if my cat was that dangerous. I said no, but that I was! She got the message.

[PARAGON]

Ok, you guys can dress things up however you want. You believe in degrees of killing and you tidy the whole thing up to make you feel warm and fuzzy inside by overemphasizing one potential aspect.

First point is that guns are not just used to kill. And when they are, most hunters attempt to be as accurate as possible to make a clean kill. Don't attempt to explain things you can't seem to understand. I do not enjoy the single aspect of killing. I do enjoy when I make a clean shot resulting in a clean kill. I do understand that I am a part of nature and not just some observer on the outside and that if it weren't for hunters like me, you would not get to see the animals you hold so precious. I guess balance of nature doesn't equate with you guys. I am sure you are fine with the killing predatory animals if they were killing people or killing the livestock that would have otherwise ended up as your Saturday night dinner.

Now to suggest that slaughtering is somehow more humane than me hunting an animal that has more abilities to evade me than I do to take him is simply ridiculous. Mainly there is nothing humane in the way the meat that you buy from the supermarket was harvested. This is a little absurb. I suggest before you condemn others, you do a little hands on research. Please visit any pork, chicken or beef operation and view it from beginning to end and tell me where does humane come into play.

I take great pleasure in providing habitat for the animals in which I hunt on an open range. I take great pleasure trying to outwit them and their many heightened senses of which I have to attempt to employ numerous different ways to overcome. LV, the comment of saying give them guns is simply asinine. I suppose we should condemn all predators for killing an animal for their food or condemn most cat owners because they let their cats out that kill defenseless mice and birds but do not consume them. They simply do it for the pleasure.

Candy coat things how you like that makes you feel better in life but don't expect people of logic to somehow believe that not hunting animals is somehow "smarter". You know it's Ok if you don't like vanilla ice cream but don't try to impune me because I do. And yes it boils down to being that simple. You don't like it, fine. But that does not make it wrong no matter how you try to dress it up.

[DennisAJC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Klaus:
Fair enough LV. I love animals as well. I once told my apartment manager that it would be extremely bad if someone let my cat out of my apartment while I was not there. She then asked me if my cat was that dangerous. I said no, but that I was! She got the message. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL!

[DennisAJC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LasVegas:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Klaus:
I'm curious - How do you animal rights people rationalize purchasing a vehicle with a leather interior? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Klaus. I'm not an animal "rights" person. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



To prove yourself, you must go next door and kill your neighbours's dog. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Klaus]

Paragon,

My personal opinion is that if you want to hunt, by all means do so. I don't because it is too easy to go to the store. However, I support everyone’s right to hunt.

IMHO, once someone has decided to use animals for food or clothing it really doesn't matter whether it comes from the slaughter house or a hunter's field. The animal is still dead.

I get aggravated when someone takes the stand that they don't believe in killing animals while they enjoy animal products such as leather interiors.

It reminds me of the "No Blood for Oil" bumper stickers. I guess what was in their vehicle's tank didn't count.

[LasVegas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PARAGON:
Ok, you guys can dress things up however you want. You believe in degrees of killing and you tidy the whole thing up to make you feel warm and fuzzy inside by overemphasizing one potential aspect.

First point is that guns are not just used to kill. And when they are, most hunters attempt to be as accurate as possible to make a clean kill. Don't attempt to explain things you can't seem to understand. I do not enjoy the single aspect of killing. I do enjoy when I make a clean shot resulting in a clean kill. I do understand that I am a part of nature and not just some observer on the outside and that if it weren't for hunters like me, you would not get to see the animals you hold so precious. I guess balance of nature doesn't equate with you guys. I am sure you are fine with the killing predatory animals if they were killing people or killing the livestock that would have otherwise ended up as your Saturday night dinner.

Now to suggest that slaughtering is somehow more humane than me hunting an animal that has more abilities to evade me than I do to take him is simply ridiculous. Mainly there is nothing humane in the way the meat that you buy from the supermarket was harvested. This is a little absurb. I suggest before you condemn others, you do a little hands on research. Please visit any pork, chicken or beef operation and view it from beginning to end and tell me where does humane come into play.

I take great pleasure in providing habitat for the animals in which I hunt on an open range. I take great pleasure trying to outwit them and their many heightened senses of which I have to attempt to employ numerous different ways to overcome. LV, the comment of saying give them guns is simply asinine. I suppose we should condemn all predators for killing an animal for their food or condemn most cat owners because they let their cats out that kill defenseless mice and birds but do not consume them. They simply do it for the pleasure.

Candy coat things how you like that makes you feel better in life but don't expect people of logic to somehow believe that not hunting animals is somehow "smarter". You know it's Ok if you don't like vanilla ice cream but don't try to impune me because I do. And yes it boils down to being that simple. You don't like it, fine. But that does not make it wrong no matter how you try to dress it up. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I said "should" be slaughtered in a humane way, not are slaughtered in a humane way. I believe I said I agreed with controlled hunting. Hunt all you like. That's your perogative. Try doing it on an equal basis sometime without your arsenal. It might be more satisfying if you ever kill something. Cats hunt out of instinct to sharpen their skills that were necessary for survival. Never said that not hunting makes me or anyone else smarter. Believe me, nothing was candy coated because I don't care what you or anyone else does. That's your measure to deal with. Just stating my position as you so aptly said we're all entitiled to. And yes, I've still had animals with more common sense than a lot of people I've known.

[LasVegas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DennisAJC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LasVegas:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Klaus:
I'm curious - How do you animal rights people rationalize purchasing a vehicle with a leather interior? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Klaus. I'm not an animal "rights" person. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



To prove yourself, you must go next door and kill your neighbours's dog. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ssshhhhh. Be vewy vewwwy quiet. I'm hunting dogs with an AK-47! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[LasVegas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Klaus:
Paragon,

My personal opinion is that if you want to hunt, by all means do so. I don't because it is too easy to go to the store. However, I support everyone’s right to hunt.

IMHO, once someone has decided to use animals for food or clothing it really doesn't matter whether it comes from the slaughter house or a hunter's field. The animal is still dead.

I get aggravated when someone takes the stand that they don't believe in killing animals while they enjoy animal products such as leather interiors.

It reminds me of the "No Blood for Oil" bumper stickers. I guess what was in their vehicle's tank didn't count. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[PARAGON]

As a hunter I have encountered arguments such as this quite often and am just amazed at where the lines are drawn. It's OK to kill mice, snakes, bugs or even plant forms but somehow there is a line drawn (for many) there and anything above that killed is somehow wrong.

It is worse for me when someone is mischaracterizing hunting (granted there are those that are inhumane and do not treat it sportingly). In a normal deer hunting season, I spend about $3000 on food seed and supplements for the animals on my land, spend about 200 hours keeping the land habitable by game and non-game species and then spend about 150 hours hunting and on average kill 2 deer, of which I take to a processor and have the meat processed into sausage and chopped patties. I receive enjoyment and relaxation from the whole thing. I have a digital camera and a digital video recorder with me on my hunts and shoot tons of photos and hours of video throughout the year because I observe animals that I do not intend to take at that time.

LV, you have twice stated something to the effect of evening the odds by not using my compound bow, magnum rifle or in-line muzzleloader. This is where you have a grave misunderstanding of what and why a hunter does what he does. Most hunters are interested in a clean kill and utilizing any weapon that diminishes this ability I consider very inhumane. Even hunting with a bow where you have to be within 30-35 yards of the game, death is not as clean as it is with a rifle. Also, please understand that these game animals are indeed very smart because they live life minute by minute like their life depends upon it. This is not because of us hunters it is because in nature, they are naturally prey and it is instinct for them.

I think I fairly represent the average hunter also and don't feel it is honest to mischaracterize either how we take the game or the level of intelligence that game animals have and their natural born ability to elude the hunter.

Now aside from that, the FBI profiles serial killers early in life by those who very arbitrary in killing of animals. Those that get some lust or satisfaction from the actual kill. As I said I, and I think most hunters, get know satisfaction from the kill itself. There is no bloodlust. If there where I wouldn't worry about how I manage the wildlife on my property.

[LasVegas]

I believe everybody has made their position clear and I respect all of them.

[PARAGON]

Awww come on there is nothing about this board that shouts dimplomacy. You have to carry the arguments into dimensions that have nothing to do with the arguments themselves. Really get into it. There are two goals, seeing how many pages it can go to and to up your post count. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Most of time I am not so longwinded though.

[LasVegas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PARAGON:

Most of time I am not so longwinded though. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh really http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[KenP]

I killed a mouse today. Yep, caught the little bastard with a glue trap. Right now it is in a Ziplock in the back of the pickup awaiting disposal in the neighbor's yard. Do you think it is frozen yet? The little f*$ker may still be alive... I better go check.http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/otn/laughing/yelrotflmao.gif

[DRTYFN]

Glue traps are the best!! Reminds me of the classic Road Runner cartoons.

[DennisAJC]

I found a glue trap at work. The little guy was squirming like a trooper.

The more he squirmed the more stuck he got.

Like a trooper. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[KenP]

Even the exterminator companies use them.

[DRTYFN]

I wish there were some really big ones for the hippies and liberals. And how about a couple thousand miles of it along the U.S./Mexico border.http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[LasVegas]

It's either mouse revenge or DRTY jerking off http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[DennisAJC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DRTYFN:
I wish there were some really big ones for the hippies and liberals. And how about a couple thousand miles of it along the U.S./Mexico border.http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why do you think we have such a low crime rate? We use em at our border. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


......Oh f*ck I'm dead....

[KenP]

Why don't they keep you OUT... http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[DennisAJC]

Dual Citizenship. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[LasVegas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PARAGON:
Awww come on there is nothing about this board that shouts dimplomacy...... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't allow the insult of being called a diplomat http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Kevin B]

After seeing that, I guess it's a good thing they dont sell "Tard Tags" http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.



O.K.



IT'S A JOKE!

[LasVegas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by N2ITNSD:
After seeing that, I guess it's a good thing they dont sell "Tard Tags" http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMAO That's good! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif