Uh-Oh! We're in Trouble!

[Queen Sheba]

And so it begins......

Feds to Tighten Fuel Rules (http://www.detnews.com/2003/autosinsider/0312/23/a01-16896.htm)

We have a nice shot of the SUT there. Why are HUMMERs always the first ones to be picked on? Or is that obvious?

"I don't believe that life is supposed to make you feel good, or to make you feel miserable either. Life is just supposed to make you feel"

[Queen Sheba]

And so it begins......

Feds to Tighten Fuel Rules (http://www.detnews.com/2003/autosinsider/0312/23/a01-16896.htm)

We have a nice shot of the SUT there. Why are HUMMERs always the first ones to be picked on? Or is that obvious?

"I don't believe that life is supposed to make you feel good, or to make you feel miserable either. Life is just supposed to make you feel"

[devilsfan]

I think the H2 is fair game. I absolutely love my truck, but 12 MPG really is abysmal. Hummer/AM General has the capability to do better, and I think it would benefit the consumers.

2003 yellow Lux series
Sunroof, 3rd row seat, yellow painted dash, locking gas cap
Tree-hugger embedded in grill http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[KenP]

What does the NHTSA have to do with CAFE standards. Or is their real motivation to decrease the size of vehicles on the road.

H2 does not weight 8500lbs.

I do not think 12 mpg is that bad. If I did I would not have purchased the truck.

Black Lingenfelter Lux

[Klaus]

History is about to repeat itself. You young folks don't remember the era of the muscle car. They were big sellers, in high demand. Then the government targeted them, passing regulations that made it impossible to build them. In a year or two, they ceased to exist.

Get ready to see that happen soon with trucks...

Klaus

"God made some men big and some men small, but Sam Colt made them all equal."

[luckydog]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KenP:
H2 does not weight 8500lbs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
They are referring to the GVWR.

If I'm not back in five minutes... wait longer!

[Queen Sheba]

http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I am all for the environment. I volunteer to plant trees every year in parks, at high schools and other places. Plus I recycle when possible. However, I don't think it right to target people and businesses who have the money to purchase these vehicles. Tree HUGGERS: GO AWAY!

You guys are doing your part to help the economy. Some make it seem like HUMMER is a Martian and they're here to take over Planet Earth. Run fo' yo' livez!

"I don't believe that life is supposed to make you feel good, or to make you feel miserable either. Life is just supposed to make you feel"

[MAC]

To be the target is the price of success or the chosen one must pay.

If you are doing well at work and promoted, some people will be saying something bad about you behind your back. If you are rich, somebody will be making fun of you or try to take your money legally or illegally. If you are the winner, some people will be trying to talk you down. If you don't share the same opinion as the majority, some will attack you. If you are an American, some people in this world will hate you for being an American.

There is no surprise why Hummer is the target, because Hummer is the Chosen one. It is The biggest and most expensive American auto, it does not blend in but it stand tallest among all, it screams "I am the biggest, I am the best and I am the King!" Why won't the mob attack Hummer?

The question is, are you worthy to be a Hummer? can you handle the success and all the attention it attracts? are you a strong and confident man to withstand the insults and ridicule? does the King change his course or get into a argument with jesters?

In the end, the weak and the impostors shall retreat, only true knights stand tall on the hill.

[H2 REGION RATS]

RIGHT ON-

[Steve R]

We're just the consumers, we bought these toys because of what they are, not on account of their mpg statistics. I think we all basically relegated the fuel issue as being circumstantial.

Diesel engines have been proven to get substantially better mileage AND lower/cleaner emmissions as well. Beyond that, there's all sorts of alternative fuels and super-efficient designs out there. Let the gov't fund research and offer incentives towards better engines and means of powering vehicles.

I don't want to sound like one of those conspiracy theorist, but the technology is out there...there's just too much oil-related economic interest to allow better technology to flourish just yet.

And for the record, ANY 8-cylinder engine is basically getting the same mileage as we are...we just stand out more on account of our width & height.

[89vette]

Oh good. I love government intrusion. I mean how would we ever know what was good for us if we did not have them to tell us?

03 Sunset H2!
89 Vette
02 Escalade

[Drag]

Oh great moderator, I do hesatate to disageree here but when you say <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Diesel engines have been proven to get substantially better mileage AND lower/cleaner emmissions as well <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What do you mean? Diesels are filthy engines, and there are currently three, yes only 3 engines that meet post 2005 emissions laws anywhere in the world. One is Volvo, one is Mercedes-Benz, and one is Mitsubishi-Heavy Truck. No others emit the small amount of sulfur that is allowable in the US after the 2005 Model Year. Isuzu is working on the next generation Duramax, and it is (according to rumor) going to be available on 05 or maybe 06 GM vehicles, but current diesel engine technology is filthy with Nitrogen Oxide (NOx).

The rant starts here. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Many thanks to Car and Driver editor in chief Casba Csere for suppling the majority of the real rant! For a link to the whole article that I lifted parts of, go to th bottom of this rant.

NOx is one of the major precursor emissions to smog. The federal Tier 2 emissions standards, which began their five-year phase-in in 2004, will cut allowable NOx emissions by 75 percent to 0.05 gram per mile per vehicle. NOx is created during peak combustion temperatures and pressures, and since diesels run compression ratios roughly double those of gasoline engines, they have trouble meeting this standard. This lofty compression ratio, however, is also one of the key factors behind the diesel's high efficiency. Another component of diesel efficiency is lean combustion, which precludes the use of the three-way catalysts that control NOx so effectively in gasoline engines.

Particulate emissions are the black haze that we see in diesel exhaust, especially from heavy trucks operating at full power. The color comes from tiny particles of soot produced during combustion. It's a problem inherent with diesels because the fuel is injected directly into the combustion chamber at the end of the compression stroke and has very little time to mix with the air in the cylinder. By contrast, in a gasoline engine, the fuel is injected while the air is rushing into the cylinder during the intake stroke and can disperse even farther during the compression stroke. Even though diesels burn lean overall, without this opportunity for thorough mixing, there are invariably tiny pockets of rich mixtures, which generate soot.

Modern diesel injection systems—similar to gasoline electronic fuel injection except that they operate at a fuel pressure of 20,000 psi rather than 50 psi—have greatly reduced this soot generation. Still, the Tier 2 standards mandate a maximum particulate emissions level of 0.01 gram per mile, which no current diesel can meet. To solve this problem, the industry has been fooling around with particulate traps for years. These devices sift the soot from the exhaust and periodically burn it off. But getting these filters to operate for 100,000 miles has been a major challenge.

Furthermore, environmentalists have been calling for even stricter particulate standards. The current Tier 2 limit applies to particles of soot larger than 10 microns. That's four ten-thousandths of an inch, or about one-fifth the thickness of human hair. But there's talk of including particles as small as 2.5 microns. This would exacerbate the particulate problem exponentially.

This utter rejection of diesels by U.S. environmentalists is in stark contrast to attitudes in Europe, where the diesel has been accepted with open arms. About one-third of the new cars and light trucks sold in Europe are purchased with diesel engines—a choice undoubtedly motivated by the fuel costs in Europe of $4 to $5 a gallon. Moreover, upcoming European NOx and particulate limits are four to ten times higher than ours will be. European diesel fuel is also better, with significantly lower sulfur content and higher cetane (a measure of a fuel's affinity for ignition, it's the opposite of octane).

European environmentalists, who are numerous enough to support powerful Green parties in several countries, seem to accept these concessions for diesels. They feel the diesel's benefits in reduced fuel consumption, and the associated CO2 emissions, outweigh the potential health effects of their particulate emissions. Then again, the Europeans have barely discovered no-smoking sections in restaurants.

Car and Driver Magazine (http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=1796&page_number=2)

Yes, this is my truck. No, I will NOT help you move.

[ckhagman]

Diesel just looks dirty. How come CARB (the governing body of the EPA for fueling standards) has not went after diesel like it has with gasoline. How come there is no ORVR requirements for diesel.

[SONA]

great thread...

"Life is tough... tougher if you’re stupid." "Just think, right now, all over the world there are people exercising bad judgment. Somebody, right this minute, is probably making the mistake of his life

[Guido]

It seems everyone wants to make an issue of gas mileage with the Hummer H2 just because you can tell just by looking at this vehical that it will not get 20 MPG. My previous vehical before I bought my H2 was a 2001 Dodge 5.9l V8, 1500 4x4 Quad Cab with the "Off Road" package. It was a beautiful truck but it didn't do anything well and it got consistantly 10-11 MPG on the highway. I complained to the dealer about the gas mileage and he replied all "Off-Road" packages are that way because they have a 4:10 axle ratio. The Dodge Ram is the Number 3 best selling vehical in the world. They have sold and continue to sell millons of these super gas guzzlers but people still single out the low production Hummer. AT least now with my H2, I get a little bit better gas mileage, I can tow my trailer, I have a much more capable vehical off road and I really enjoy driving my car. So to those who think Hummers are going to destroy the world I say take your battle elsewhere. It's not the Hummer thats causes you so much grief, you just need a kick ass looking vehical that everyone wants and talks about but few can afford so people will read your stories! Hummers draw attention "Like Nothing Else"! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[89vette]

The sad reality is that if H2's got 20mpg and the rest of cars out there got 40mpg, the H2's would still be under fire. These liberal ecoweenies just need somehting to bitch about to justify their exsistance. Great point on the Dodge Ram truck.

03 Sunset H2!
89 Vette
02 Escalade

[Queen Sheba]

http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
Why HUMMER?

To the Moon with 'em, Alice!

"I don't believe that life is supposed to make you feel good, or to make you feel miserable either. Life is just supposed to make you feel"

[Drag]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Why HUMMER? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Because it's a symbol of conspicuous consumption, that's why. Plus, these eco-wenies don't like the fact that something that goes so visibly against their goal of "Anything but the automobile" is so damn popular. Let's face it, people love the H2, even people who don't own one. It's a love it or hate it proposition no matter what. Either that, or they're compensating for being so....."small".....in other areas
http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Yes, this is my truck. No, I will NOT help you move.

[H2BIG]

I'll give the H2 another 5 years before GM shrinks it. I'm betting that in time my 03 will become another "American Classic" like the muscle cars of the 60's and early 70's.

Brian
03 Pewter H2 Lux, Sunroof, Airaid filter/MIT, Nology Wires, Corsa Touring

[Heward Jablowme]

How many MPGs does a cow get? You know there are a lot of animal farts in the world that contribute to the the greenhouse effect. The environment is just one price we'll have to pay for being a highly industrialized nation. OHHHH!!! What about all those third world countries buring cow dung, Mexico's burning season, hairsprays, aerosols, cigarettes, paper mills, 18-Wheelers, and the list goes on. By the way automakers do have the technology to build clean burning energy efficient vehicles, there is a small thing called lack of government regulations and lack of demand for these particular models. And do not forget the ever popular halitosis theory. Yeah some of you guys and gals will be getting toothpaste, mouthwash and some dental floss for Christmas. If your breath smells like your ass...you have a major malfunction.

"The person who said money isn't everything...never had any!"

[Drag]

Heward, please read the below topic, and tell me if you think that lack of govenment regulations is the problem. You did get it partially right though, nobody will buy 'em.

http://elcova.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=2826088551&f=6916043161&m=9226041515

Yes, this is my truck. No, I will NOT help you move.

[Heward Jablowme]

Why thank you Drag, I try to post negatives from both sides of the spectrum.

"The person who said money isn't everything...never had any!"

[MAC]

The battle of special interest groups have been fought for decades and will continue for decades, it goes back and forth, a lot depends on what kind of President in the White House. After 4-8-12 years, it swings back to the other side, so on and so forth. Just imagine if Al Gore is the President now, which part of the gutter do you think we live in? Your vote does count.

If you are an environmental activist, you have to pick one auto as the target, what would you pick? you can't really pick a Lexus LX470, MB G500, there is no BANG! to pick on them, people might think you are a racist if you pick on imports. You can't really pick Ram trucks, not smart to mess with those truckers, they get physical too easily. You can't hate Jeeps because everyone is driving a Jeep. When you come down to it, you really have no choice but to pick on the Hummer H2, more bang for your bucks, newest biggest expesnive and flashy. Perfect choice.

I for one, don't mind being the target at all. It is an honor. The more they hate my Hummer, the happier I am, they are helping to inflate the Hummer image. They help drive away the meek and the weak potential Hummer owners, they make me the enemy of the Left which is exactly whom I am and what I want to be, they make my Hummer larger than life, they make the Left sleepless at night. This is turning out to be far better than I expected.

[Cincinnati h2]

Hell with the tree huggers,99% of the negative comments I get about my h2 are made by people who know nothing about it. I get tired of expaining that it is no different than any other fullsize truck/suv with regards to gas consumption/emisions.

[DRTYFN]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heward Jablowme:
Why thank you Drag, I try to post negatives from both sides of the spectrum.

"The person who said money isn't everything...never had any!"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you're going to try for a funny name at least get it right!! It's Haywood not Heward.


Damn... almost flamed you big until I took a look at your public profile and saw that you're an owner. Welcome http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[raptor2ride]

Hello all. This topic really only comes down to ONE thing. Everyone has the choice to purchase whatever type of vehicle they want, within reason. Dont like it, dont buy it! But sure as hell dont TELL me what I can and can not buy!!

Dirts for racing and pavements for getting there!

[Steve R]

Drag...

What you read one day evolves into something else the next. Now they say red-meat & eggs aren't so bad, and my health-bud tells me carrots are actually full of sugar and apples are all carbs!!! Go figure!!! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I too thought diesel was a disgusting & filthy inefficient fuel....then I read/was told that when properly tuned, the emissions are less harmful to the environment then gasoline.

I like the thinking going on in here. Just for the record...when I first saw the H2, my initial thought was "why did they have to make it soooooo big???". My old Jeep Cherokee held two full-sized adults up front, carried 3 in the rear and had a lot of cargo room: why'd they have to make the H2 so damn large????

Now...I saw the H3T and it sports a nifty 5-cylinder engine that puts out some 350 horosepower (more then H2) and comes turbo-charged: less weight, more power, fewer cylinders: could GM be moving in the right direction???

In closing: My friends have a VW Golf that is a turbo-diesel...it's relatively quick and gets 52 mpg:

Hmmm: Size of a Jeep Grand, a bit wider, all the refinements of a Hummer, 5-cylinder inter-coled turbo-diesel with a high-pressure fuel atomizer and a strong aluminum frame.......it'll probably get about 28mpg and the greenies will choke for a new reason to hate us!

It'll never happen cause it just makes too much sense!

MAC, finish this up for me!

[Fat Slob]

The hummer, albeit very sleek for an "all terrain" vehicle is simply just a Chevy Tahoe. It has the Chevy Tahoe chassis with a different (fancier) skin. Don't get me wrong. I am a big fan of the original hummer. That is a fantastic vehicle. But they took all the hummer outta the hummer! C'mon guys! Total poseur! You can essentially buy the H2 for 20 thousand cheaper by just buying it with the different name. It'll most assuredly go wherever the H2 could go (as if any yall orv anyway)

[frank6150]

Wow I am surprised you came up for air from jamming Krispy Kremes and fudge into your mouth long enough to muster up a post. I won't continue as I will leave your bashing to DRTY, it is my christmas present to him.

[DRTYFN]

Ha ha ha!!!! What a fat idiot. You obviously didn't open those lard stuffed eyelids and do any reading while you were in here. You just had to jam those big fat chubby fingers into your keyboard to show the world that the only reading you do is on a menu.
Do poseurs run Moab or the Rubicon? Just because you can't heft your big fat ass up into one doesn't mean you have to hate the H2.
Do some reading in here and find out how we've dispatched all of the other ignorant trolls like your self. If you need some motivation just pretend you're looking for the secret location of the last golden Willie Wonka ticket.

Where's Kevin Spacey to tie you to a chair and force-feed you to death when we need him?

Ho ho ho!!! You fat hump.

[Kevin B]

I gotta hand it to fat slob, thats a new one. The H2 is a tahoe. REALLY. My salesman assured me it was the end-all offroad vehicle.......Ya maen HE LIED..

What a knuckle head. Hey Fat Slob, go stuff the turkey http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.

[Zing]

Being that it is Christmas and all, I'm feeling kinda bad for Fat Slob. People who are indifferent about the H2 or truly think it's a "poser" vehicle don't spend time reading, registering and posting on an H2 forum.

Fat Slob is clearly a troubled individual filled with self doubt, insecurity and envy. He's the kind of guy who would love to have a Hummer but isn't man enough achieve his wants. Instead, he lashes out and attempts to destroy any and all evidence of his inadequacies and will discredit anything he can think of that might give light to all that he is not. "H2 is a Tahoe." All this as he drives around in the car that he despises but tries to convince everyone including himself that he loves.

[KenP]

Welcome fat slob.

Now go find momma.

Black Lingenfelter Lux

[Steve R]

Yeah...and the Porsche 911 Carrera is just a VW bug with a different body as well. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

This chump isn't even worth getting the flame-thrower out for.

No, the H2 isn't the H1....it's an innovation. It's also not a Tahoe/Suburban/Yukon either. I'm not even going to bother explaining it either. Either you get it, or you don't.

[Drag]

Steve,

My big problem with diesel is NOx emission. Unless there's a particulate trap on the exhaust, then it's going to handle that issue. Particulate traps are expensive though, and they don't last much past 100K miles. Therefore, I don't know how many of them we'll see on realworld production type vehicles. That can change, though.

One of my biggest doubts about diesel fuel is simpy that CAFE and emissions laws are designed with a predominantly gasoline fleet in mind. Diesel has the deck stacked against it due to EPA meddling in emissions laws and especially the rabid group called CARB (California Air Resources Board). Those fools seem to think that they can legislate product into existence, even though the product doesn't exist.

Once we have emissions laws that make more sense for diesel fuel, then I'd be glad to drive one. I love the gobs of low end torque, and getting better miles per would be nice. I don't want to have to pay an automakers fines for violating CAFE or the Federal Clean Air act by buying a diesel engine truck while Clean Air laws are so slanted against diesel, though. anyone who thinks that automakers wouldn't make you pay through the nose to get a vehicle that brings them closer to fines is smoking (**%^.

Yes, this is my truck. No, I will NOT help you move.

[Queen Sheba]

http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Here we go again. Someone who thinks he knows everything or some things about H2, goes openning his mouth before consulting with his momma. Because no one else wants to explain it to, neither am I. Fat Slob, go play at the playground for the slow kids. You're not wanted here!

"I don't believe that life is supposed to make you feel good, or to make you feel miserable either. Life is just supposed to make you feel"

[Frank Hewitt]

Fat slob,
although I have no respect for some of those who contradict you, I must say : how can you compare an H2 with a tahoe off-road? Clearly you have never been off-road! The approach and departure angles of the H2 make it superior to any other production vehicle available, other than the rubicon or H1.

gasman

[Steve R]

Not to mention the traction control system, rear locker, height control, air suspension, frame reinforcement, suspension augmentations, heavier-duty parts, significantly more protection, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc......

And...by the time you take a Tahoe and buy the nicest package (to bring it almost even with the luxury of the H2)...you'd still have to add some more goodies. The difference in price is about $7K (between stock H2 and ultra-nice-package Tahoe) and you're still not even close to having the same features as the H2.

Bottom line: if you took a top-of-the-line Tahoe and added as many features as you could to make it the ultimate offroader.....you'd spend as much or MORE then an H2 and still not have the same abilities or features.

If your gonna compare the H2 to a Tahoe, you may as well compare a Porsche Carrera to a VW Bug.

Or in Fat Slob's case...a fat monkey to a Human.

[Steve R]

btw gang...

I'm pretty sure this Fat-Slob guy was just a hit&run poster who we'll never see again. That or he found a new all-you-can-eat buffet down the street!

[Frank Hewitt]

fat slob- aka Mr. goodbar,
where'd you go?? was there a sale price on a samuri on ebay? Rush out and buy the tahoe and give me an email--- we'll go wheelin'!

gasman