Attn: gun experts

[Racer-X]

Sometimes I am forced to go into "the hood" for my business. Twice I have been threatened with a gun, attempted robbery once, close gunfire 3 times. Last time was today. :mad: Local police have literally told me (off the record) to carry a gun and if I HAD to use it, I would walk. :eek:

Not that I would, but if WAS going to carry a concealed pistol, what would you recommend?

I would want something that fits into my front pocket of loose fitting pants (so as not to instigate) - so of course a very reliable safety would be a must.

Stopping power is another issue.

I wouldn't want to spend a lot for obvious reasons.

Any advice appreciated.

[dеiтайожни]

First...I wouldn't trust the cop! Make sure you get what he said in writting and notarized, and video tape that process and make sure you both are holding 2 forms of government id up to the camera.

Second, your best bet would be to find the gang that reps that area, they will offer you protection and you will just give them like 70% of the money you make doing business in that area. That's probably why you are getting hassled in the first place.

Third, you are probably going to get shot if you pull a gun on someone who already has a gun on you. But, get 2 gold-plated desert eagles and don't be shy about letting people see them.

[Racer-X]

Ya, OK that all seems like a good plan. :rolleyes:

[PARAGON]

Sometimes I am forced to go into "the hood" for my business. Twice I have been threatened with a gun, attempted robbery once, close gunfire 3 times. Last time was today. :mad: Local police have literally told me (off the record) to carry a gun and if I HAD to use it, I would walk. :eek:

Not that I would, but if WAS going to carry a concealed pistol, what would you recommend?

I would want something that fits into my front pocket of loose fitting pants (so as not to instigate) - so of course a very reliable safety would be a must.

Stopping power is another issue.

I wouldn't want to spend a lot for obvious reasons.

Any advice appreciated.Buy a big can of Pepper Foam and put it in your front pocket.

[RIC-H0]

First...I wouldn't trust the cop! Make sure you get what he said in writting and notarized, and video tape that process and make sure you both are holding 2 forms of government id up to the camera.

Second, your best bet would be to find the gang that reps that area, they will offer you protection and you will just give them like 70% of the money you make doing business in that area. That's probably why you are getting hassled in the first place.

Third, you are probably going to get shot if you pull a gun on someone who already has a gun on you. But, get 2 gold-plated desert eagles and don't be shy about letting people see them.

I would go to a shooting range.
Most good ranges rent handguns for on site use.
Try out several makes, models, and calibers.
Save yourself some money and possibly a life, by buying a gun that "fits". One that you are completely comfortable with, and one that has enough stopping power to make a difference!
The best advice I can give you is:Whatever you get...
Practice! Practice! Practice!
A gun is useless(and more dangerous) in the hands of someone that doesn't know how to use it!
My conceal is a Walther P99 QPQ in 40cal. It's not the smallest gun, but it is one I have come to love and trust.
Glock make quite versatile range of carries, and so do most other manufacturers. It's all a matter of personal preference.

Don't forget to practice...
and a little prayer every one in a while helps too!!!:D

[DRTYFN]

Sometimes I am forced to go into "the hood" for my business. Twice I have been threatened with a gun, attempted robbery once, close gunfire 3 times. Last time was today. :mad: Local police have literally told me (off the record) to carry a gun and if I HAD to use it, I would walk. :eek:

Not that I would, but if WAS going to carry a concealed pistol, what would you recommend?

I would want something that fits into my front pocket of loose fitting pants (so as not to instigate) - so of course a very reliable safety would be a must.

Stopping power is another issue.

I wouldn't want to spend a lot for obvious reasons.

Any advice appreciated.

Where TF do you live? I wanna go there on safari.:D

I'd recommend something in a .40 caliber. You could actually drop someone with a .22 if shot placement is good(I might have heard about someone dropping a deer with a .22;)), but I'd go with the .40, as it's got better stopping power than a 9mm, but doesn't have the kick of the .45. Just my opinion.

[MarineHawk]

Can you say what state you live in?
do they not have a concealed carry law?
If not, what's the penalty for carrying concealed?
If felony (some states), think hard about it.
If misdemeanor, I'd be a little less worried.

On the gun, do you really want to put it in your front pocket? If so, you need something pretty small. These work very well and aren't terribly expensive: http://www.kel-tec.com/p3at.html
You don't need to worry about an external safety - just get a pocket holster.

If you're seriously thinking about confronting a gang, know what you're doing at all times; get very good with the gun on a combat range or just shooting cans in rapid succession outdoors - hitting them repeatedly as they stop moving; Think about what you'll do ahead of time when attacked/confronted; and get a more-powerful gun. The Kahr PM series that Co Hummer mentioned on the other thread is very good (though I would go with the .40 S&W personally). You might want to get the Glock 27 also. It only a little bigger, has a longer barrel (there's a pretty decent energy increase going from a 3.0 to a 3.5" barrel), and holds 10 rounds (9 + 1). IMO though, the Kahr and Glock work better from a holster than the pocket, but they have jmore knockdown power.

[Racer-X]

Thanks Ric, This won't be a first gun. I have a few and have spent some time at the local range. Both pistols I have are great for home defense but way too big for what I need. I'm just not into it enough to know what to look for in something small.

I would never pull a gun on someone who had one pointed at me and everytime I have had an issue, pulling a gun would have been an easy last resort.

I've started a policy that keeps me out of those neighborhoods for the most part, but some of my best clients sometimes need me in those areas once in a blue moon and it's hard to turn them down when they are a huge part of my income.

[RIC-H0]

[quote=MarineHawk]
On the gun, do you really want to put it in your front pocket? If so, you need something pretty small. These work very well and aren't terribly expensive: http://www.kel-tec.com/p3at.html
You don't need to worry about an external safety - just get a pocket holster.[quote]

I had a Kel-Tec in .380 and was uncomfortable to shoot. Granted, it is very small, but did not enjoy shooting it, and wouldn't place alot of confidence in a gun that cost less than $150!!!

Needless to say, I traded in that gun, I think for a case of ammo and a jerry can:D .

IMO

Ric

[MarineHawk]

I'd recommend something in a .40 caliber.

Ditto. No service handgun cartridge has as much proven knockdown power as the .40 S&W with the possible exception of the 125 gr .357 Mag. See, e.g., http://www.chuckhawks.com/readers_choice_pistol_cartridges.htm

[Racer-X]

Where TF do you live? I wanna go there on safari.:D

I'd recommend something in a .40 caliber. You could actually drop someone with a .22 if shot placement is good(I might have heard about someone dropping a deer with a .22;)), but I'd go with the .40, as it's got better stopping power than a 9mm, but doesn't have the kick of the .45. Just my opinion.

40 cal. Cool. When I bought my .357 for home defense I was talked out of a 9mm because it lacked real stopping power.

I live in a good town. I can leave my door unlocked but occasionally I need to work in the worst parts of Richmond Ca. I think last year it took out Oakland for the most violent city in Ca. I'm sure you've heard the rap it gotten. Most of the city is fine, I would walk through at night, but below 23rd it's getting bad.

[Racer-X]

Ditto. No service handgun cartridge has as much proven knockdown power as the .40 S&W with the possible exception of the 125 gr .357 Mag. See, e.g., http://www.chuckhawks.com/readers_choice_pistol_cartridges.htm

So two votes for the 40 cal. and I'm a fan of S&W.
:D

Alec, ROFLMAO!

[RIC-H0]

The 357 is da bomb!
My 1st gun was a highly polished 357 Colt KingCobra!
(Still got it, Still love it!)
That bad boy is dead on, and recoil is a dream, plus whenever you are low on cash you can still shoot the 38's.

Good luck on your purchase, and be careful!!!

[dеiтайожни]

Fine, if you want to brush off the rules of the ghetto I provided you with, at least remember to sprinkle crack on anyone you put down.

[MarineHawk]

I had a Kel-Tec in .380 and was uncomfortable to shoot. Granted, it is very small, but did not enjoy shooting it, and wouldn't place alot of confidence in a gun that cost less than $150!!!

Needless to say, I traded in that gun, I think for a case of ammo and a jerry can:D .
IMO
Ric

I wouldn't carry one somewhere when I was really expecting something to happen, because of the lack of firepower. However, I'm a lot more likely to have it with me and it's got enough firepower to do the job 98 times out of 100. I've shot about 500 rounds through mine without a single failure. They cost about $350 new - not $150 (you may have gotten a deal, but I've seen scores of them for sale in recent years and always between $340 and $390). My experiences have been pretty much the same as this guy: http://www.gunblast.com/KelTec_P3AT.htm
The advantage of the KT to me is that it's as powerful as a .38 Special but barely bigger than a set of keys. You can always have it with you. I wouldn't want to take on a gang with it, but that's because of the caliber - not the gun. It's not that I'm cheap - I own probably $20K in guns, but I can't findn a smaller, more reliable gun of decent power.

[MarineHawk]

40 cal. Cool. When I bought my .357 for home defense I was talked out of a 9mm because it lacked real stopping power.

I live in a good town. I can leave my door unlocked but occasionally I need to work in the worst parts of Richmond Ca. I think last year it took out Oakland for the most violent city in Ca. I'm sure you've heard the rap it gotten. Most of the city is fine, I would walk through at night, but below 23rd it's getting bad.

The 9 will work, but the .40 is a bit better:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/40s&w.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm

Check this out: http://www.packing.org/state/california/

[Racer-X]

Fine, if you want to brush off the rules of the ghetto I provided you with, at least remember to sprinkle crack on anyone you put down.

:D

[Racer-X]

Quote: California law has a gray area, a de facto quasi-right-to-carry. The state law provides that carrying a concealed weapon (including a knife or blackjack) is a FELONY, however, a clear exception exists. If you are carrying a gun (not a knife!) AND it was legally purchased AND it is registered to you AND you are not a gang member (yes, there is a statutory definition of gang member) AND it is your first such arrest, then concealed carry is a misdemeanor. A typical fine is $200.


SWEET! :D

[RIC-H0]

I wouldn't carry one somewhere when I was really expecting something to happen, because of the lack of firepower. However, I'm a lot more likely to have it with me and it's got enough firepower to do the job 98 times out of 100. I've shot about 500 rounds through mine without a single failure. They cost about $350 new - not $150 (you may have gotten a deal, but I've seen scores of them for sale in recent years and always between $340 and $390). My experiences have been pretty much the same as this guy: http://www.gunblast.com/KelTec_P3AT.htm
The advantage of the KT to me is that it's as powerful as a .38 Special but barely bigger than a set of keys. You can always have it with you. I wouldn't want to take on a gang with it, but that's because of the caliber - not the gun. It's not that I'm cheap - I own probably $20K in guns, but I can't findn a smaller, more reliable gun of decent power.

Sorry, Didn't mean to dog your gun.;)
Just as previously mentioned, It's a personal preference!
and yeah, I did get a hell of a deal on it, but lost a little on the trade in, so I guess it was a wash!:D

[Lucifer]

I'd recommend the .500 S&W Ghetto Hunter. Make sure you get the sling option. I don't think you would have anymore problems with that thing slung around your shoulder.

http://www.gunshopfinder.com/smithandwesson/model500_105.jpg

[Mr. I - Man]

Bersa 45. cal is a nice mini pistol with some knock down power!
Bersa Thunder Ultra Compact/Mini Pistol
http://www.gundirectory.com/images/targetT.gifhttp://www.gundirectory.com/images/targetL.gifhttp://www.gundirectory.com/guns/20033-1.jpghttp://www.gundirectory.com/images/targetR.gifhttp://www.gundirectory.com/images/targetB.gif
Manufacturing
Make: Bersa (http://www.gundirectory.com/body.asp?gun=Pistol&pp=1&sort=1&mfgID=10012&mfg=Bersa&mfgURL=www%2Ebersa%2Dllama%2Ecom&mfgCou=Argentina)
aka: Firestorm, Eagle
Country: Argentina
MSRP: $425

Ballistics
Caliber: 9mm, .40 SW, .45 ACP
Capacity: 10/13 round mag
Action: DA/SA

Dimensions
Type: Compact Pistol
Weight: 27.51 oz (780g)
Length: 6.7" (170 mm)
Barrel: 3.6" (91 mm)

Design
Frame/Finishes:
Matte, Satin Nickel, Duotone, Gold
Safety:
Intergral Locking System, Maunual, Firing Pin, Decock
Sights:
fixed, with front sight integral to the s

Or H&K P13 if you want some very small that can 13 rounds down range!!

[RIC-H0]

You want a little knock down power, Go with a T/C Contender in a 7-30 Waters. Better make it a good shot though...It's a single shooter!:D

[MarineHawk]

Sorry, Didn't mean to dog your gun.;)


Yes you did. And I'm very hurt. ;)
And now it's personal. :D
Not that I'm agreeing with you, but do I have to use that small plasticky POS when we have our invetitable duel at 20 paces? ;)

[RIC-H0]

Not that I'm agreeing with you, but do I have to use that small plasticky POS when we have our invetitable duel at 20 paces? ;)
Can we make it 10 paces...I'm not a very good shot!:D

[MarineHawk]

Can we make it 10 paces...I'm not a very good shot!:D

Yes, but only if I get to use a combination of the the 12-gauge flame thrower ammo and the "Macho Gaucho" ammo: http://www.firequest.com/catalog/12_gauge_ammunition.html
in one of these: http://www.serbu.com/shorty.htm

[RIC-H0]

Yes, but only if I get to use a combination of the the 12-gauge flame thrower ammo and the "Macho Gaucho" ammo: http://www.firequest.com/catalog/12_gauge_ammunition.html
in one of these: http://www.serbu.com/shorty.htm
Yeah...Blow a couple of the 12GA Flash Thunder Grenade Ammo indoors. 'Cause it says it's safe for indoor use!!!:D

[MarineHawk]

Yeah...Blow a couple of the 12GA Flash Thunder Grenade Ammo indoors. 'Cause it says it's safe for indoor use!!!:D

There's a lot of fun stuff on that site. Someday, I've got to try out the flame throwing ammo. Maybe after I up my life insurance policy.

[RIC-H0]

There's a lot of fun stuff on that site. Someday, I've got to try out the flame throwing ammo. Maybe after I up my life insurance policy.

Just make sure you borrow your neighbors shotgun to try all these cool shotshells out!
No, you can't borrow one of mine for the weekend!:D

There's always the magnesium flame throwing shotshells, so you can make sure they're cooked well done all the way through!:eek:

[Arizona Hummerboy]

As a ex-police officer, I would say if you have to carry a gun, I would say take a hand gun training course on self defense. If you have to draw down on someone and point a gun at them, you must be ready and willing to shoot that person if you have to, and be willing to shoot to kill if it come's down to it.

[MarineHawk]

As a ex-police officer, I would say if you have to carry a gun, I would say take a hand gun training course on self defense. If you have to draw down on someone and point a gun at them, you must be ready and willing to shoot that person if you have to, and be willing to shoot to kill if it come's down to it.

Do you recommend the 12 gauge flame thrower rounds or the Macho Gaucho rounds for confronting inner-city gang members?

[RIC-H0]

As a ex-police officer, I would say if you have to carry a gun, I would say take a hand gun training course on self defense. If you have to draw down on someone and point a gun at them, you must be ready and willing to shoot that person if you have to, and be willing to shoot to kill if it come's down to it.

I completely agree...
Never point your gun at anything that you aren't willing to kill!
Education is the key to safety, and practice is mandatory!

[MarineHawk]

As a ex-police officer, I would say if you have to carry a gun, I would say take a hand gun training course on self defense. If you have to draw down on someone and point a gun at them, you must be ready and willing to shoot that person if you have to, and be willing to shoot to kill if it come's down to it.

BTW: I appreciate your service in the police force. It's just as valuable as military or other national service.

[Racer-X]

BTW: I appreciate your service in the police force. It's just as valuable as military or other national service.

X2

And thanks Arizona, I'll look into one in my area. Also going to look into a permit to carry concealed but I bet that won't happen here in Ca.

[PARAGON]

I would never pull a gun on someone who had one pointed at me.......I'll reiterate my original suggestion then. Why do you want to carry a gun then?

If you are not willing to utilize your weapon in the exact moment that you should, you don't need to carry one and need to find alternate means of protection. Carrying a handgun for protection is not for everybody and those that cannot utilize the tool effectively will only be a target themselves.

Action beats reaction every single time. Knowing what your actions can and should be in most given situations (ie-training) is the key to surviving an encounter.

Aside from that, I personally carry .40SW and nearly all of my personal defense handguns are of the same caliber.

[PARAGON]

I'd say that would be a good time to do so, you could be dead in a few seconds... Of course spotting it coming will help you better deal with it.

I wouldn't carry a loaded pistol in my pocket, period. Carry it safely in a holster.

Some counties in CA are not too bad for giving out CCW licenses, forget LA.

If you concerned about the legalities of carrying, remember that a revolver doesn't leave any spent casings at the scene.

Shot placement is as important as caliber, but a 357 mag revolver or any decent pistol in .40 0r .45 will generally stop as good as anything else.Shot placement is very important to a degree. Meaning, don't worry about trying to shoot in the head or heart. COM shots, or hitting the trunk of the body, with multiple rounds is the best way to walk away from a deadly confrontation.

Many "shootouts" result in a hugely higher percentage of missed shots than hits.

[Racer-X]

I'll reiterate my original suggestion then. Why do you want to carry a gun then?

I'll clarify - I would never attempt to PULL a gun on someone who had one pointed at me. That would be asking to get shot. I would have no problem pulling the trigger if I thought my life was in danger.

[Racer-X]

I wouldn't carry a loaded pistol in my pocket, period. Carry it safely in a holster.

How about a pocket holster? Anything else is impractical for my work.

I'm not familiar with pocket holsters - I'm guessing they would slow down the draw?

[Aubs]

Don't forget our friends at Taser. They have the cool 'energy' weapons, and you can legally carry some of them. They're probably very expensive however.
http://www.taser.com/index.asp

[PARAGON]

I'll clarify - I would never attempt to PULL a gun on someone who had one pointed at me. That would be asking to get shot. I would have no problem pulling the trigger if I thought my life was in danger.It was clear the first time and you didn't change things. How do you know the person pointing the gun doesn't subscribe to the same principles that was iterated to you above about pointing a gun at someone that you don't intend to kill.

Why take the chance? Again, if you are not comfortable in pulling and using a handgun in that situation, you do not need to seek it's use as personal protection. You are simply looking for additional trouble that you don't want. That is the one time in your life you would most assuredly want that protection, yet you state you wouldn't make use of it. Someone is pointing a gun at you, you can't assume they are NOT going to shoot you. THAT'S asking to get shot.

[ShaggyX]

CC is just asking for trouble, and is more likely to escalate the issue then anything else. That is all. :cool:

[ETD]

Are you an obvious target? I'm sure you do not drive in the Hummer, right? Are you going in at night with your signage and tattoo's ablazing? You have survived being held at gun point several times but having a gun in those situations would have guaranteed you getting killed, IMHO (unless you have a background in close quarter combat, NOT playing around @ the shooting range, but actually shooting at living/breathing people who want to kill you). IMHO, it is irresponsible for me and others to give you advice on what would be the best gun to have in your pocket when the coroner goes over your dead body. My own advice is if you consider those situations so intrinsic in your livelihood (for civilians, I can only come up with a couple of scenarios e.g. bounty hunter and body guard) then become proficient in close quarter combat by studying with a reputable professional rather than just shopping around for firearm (is your life really worth a one time purchase of $300-$500 or a lifetime of careful and diligent study of the martial arts). Most Ninjutsu practitioners, for example, are given wide berth in otherwise hostile territories based on just the aura they project. And that's just $0.02 worth of advice. Good luck.

[CO Hummer]

CC is just asking for trouble, and is more likely to escalate the issue then anything else. That is all. :cool:

Do you mind if I quote you for a Deep Thinker's Hall of Fame nomination?

[ShaggyX]

Do you mind if I quote you for a Deep Thinker's Hall of Fame nomination?I will gladly endorse this request. :) :)

[MarineHawk]

I agree with Para on this and his previous comments. If the guy is about to shoot you you anyway, acting quickly, drawing, and firing a shot or more into his mid section, will give you a very good chance of survival - approximately infinitely better than just sitting there and taking the hit.

If he's hesitant and unsure what to do himself - even more so. The vast majority of armed criminal IMO are cowards. If you act decisively, calmly, quickly, and intellligently in deploying your weapon, you should come out on top more than 90% of the time.

One illustration that draws on what Para was saying is that more than 85% of rounds fired in police shootouts (I think this is correct; I can't recall the specific numbers - someone help me if you know) miss their target. Keep in mind that (again I think this is correct) more than 80% of those shootouts occur at a distance of less than 10 feet!

Thus the victor isn't usually or necessarily the best marksman, the fastest one, or even the one who gets the head start - it's most often the one who is determined to respond and does so as calmly and proficiently as possible. As part of that training formal or otherwise at hitting moving targets quickly and thinking about what you will do in a given situation ahead of time is critical. If you act decisively and don't freak out, you'll win most of the time even if the other guy has the drop on you. As a concealed carrier, you have the element of surprise, and they don't know what you're going to do or when you're going to do it. in some sense, it's an advantage if you act effectively.

I might disagree with the others about the pocket issue. I have a small auto in my pocket often when I woulnd't have anything if I had to have a holster. If it's hot and I'm wearing shorts and a shirt tucked in, I'm not going to wear a jacket or untuck my shirt so that I can carry. I just put my thin holstered .380 in my pocket. (Note, as I said earlier, I'd put my Glock or H&K in a holster or quick opening camera case or something if I was expecting to walk around East St. Louis or Detroit or something)
One advantage to the pocket approach is that if someone is walking near you, and you sense a possible threat but really don't know, but don't want to reach for a holstered weapon, just stick your hand in your pocket. At that point, drawing and firing takes about 0.3 seconds.

It was clear the first time and you didn't change things. How do you know the person pointing the gun doesn't subscribe to the same principles that was iterated to you above about pointing a gun at someone that you don't intend to kill.

Why take the chance? Again, if you are not comfortable in pulling and using a handgun in that situation, you do not need to seek it's use as personal protection. You are simply looking for additional trouble that you don't want. That is the one time in your life you would most assuredly want that protection, yet you state you wouldn't make use of it. Someone is pointing a gun at you, you can't assume they are NOT going to shoot you. THAT'S asking to get shot.

[Aubs]

I think this would scare anyone: Just walk around with a particle accelerator on your back, and aim it at anything that moves...

http://shutter01.pictures.aol.com/data/pictures/04/007/77/3F/E2/FB/U9Kpjp4rOX5-HHih5ZtnUPqf2FxHsq0Z027F.jpg

[PARAGON]

CC is just asking for trouble, and is more likely to escalate the issue then anything else. That is all. :cool:I agree if you don't pay them off every month. If you carry the balance the interest rates will eat you up.

[MarineHawk]

IMHO, it is irresponsible for me and others to give you advice on what would be the best gun to have in your pocket when the coroner goes over your dead body.

IMHO, it is irresponsible for me and others to advise someone to not arm himself when the coroner goes over his dead body because he was in a fight without a weapon. Of course, he needs to be trained. Read the Armed Citizen feature in the American Rifleman. It's regulalry filled with stories of people who saved their lives by deploying a firearm against people who were threatening them annd/or their families. I've noticed that many of them are 80 year old women. certainly, most of them aren't Navy Seals or otherwise have a "background in close quarter combat."

[PARAGON]

Fixed. But much of that is due to training, with the peoper amount of training you will increase your reaction times, as they will more instinctive and you will have better muscle memory etc to be able to do what needs to be done.That reminds me of a theory that's related and unrelated.

In combat, on the streets, etc. When an extreme situation occurs, your mind body falls back on "instinct." Many/most times the individual does not have much or any good memory of exact details of what transpired even though their actions were very deliberate and proper. It's always stated as he had the proper training, muscle memory, etc.

So, a while back it hit me about driving. You hear talk about people driving and talking on their cell phones, or talking to the person in the passenger seat and then not really having a memory of how they got to where they were going, but it was deliberate and they got there. Then, on occasion there are instances where some idiot can't walk and chew gum at the same time and shouldn't try to drive and talk at the same time, right? Well if the aforementioned is true, then those that are on the phone and run red lights, speed, drive erratically, etc. have simply been training themselves to drive that way for when they get on the phone. If they would drive responsibly during normal times, they would drive safely while their abilities are taxed.

Just a theory.:D

[PARAGON]

I might disagree with the others about the pocket issue. I have a small auto in my pocket often when I woulnd't have anything if I had to have a holster. If it's hot and I'm wearing shorts and a shirt tucked in, I'm not going to wear a jacket or untuck my shirt so that I can carry. I just put my thin holstered .380 in my pocket. (Note, as I said earlier, I'd put my Glock or H&K in a holster or quick opening camera case or something if I was expecting to walk around East St. Louis or Detroit or something)
One advantage to the pocket approach is that if someone is walking near you, and you sense a possible threat but really don't know, but don't want to reach for a holstered weapon, just stick your hand in your pocket. At that point, drawing and firing takes about 0.3 seconds.I would suggest one of these. You can stick a full-sized in there (especially since you are a small-penised Hummer owner;) ) and it still not print. As long as you don't have an old style 1911 or something that snags bad, it is pretty smooth to pull from.

It's perfect for something like the sk or even a G23.

http://www.smartcarry.com/scbrochure.pdf

[MarineHawk]

I would suggest one of these. You can stick a full-sized in there (especially since you are a small-penised Hummer owner;) ) and it still not print. As long as you don't have an old style 1911 or something that snags bad, it is pretty smooth to pull from.

It's perfect for something like the sk or even a G23.

http://www.smartcarry.com/scbrochure.pdf

It helps that I wear my pants like this:http://staffweb.esc12.net/~lrussell/images/member2.gif

[Racer-X]

Note: NO sarcasm in this post whatsoever - Just real questions.

Scenario - thug with a gun 6' away pointing between my eyes. If I have a gun in my pocket I should try to pull it?

I would think my chances would be better if I cooperated. Atleast until I felt I had an oppourtunity to pull when and IF the situation allowed it.

For me it would depend on what he wanted. If he wanted my wallet, he can have it. I would never take someones life to protect my property.

On the other hand if I thought he simply wanted me dead or had mental issues I would likely take my chances and draw. It all depends on the situation.

MarineHawks scenario of putting my hand in my pocket when I feel something is out of place is a good point. I can't tell you how many times I would have loved to be able to do that.

I think it's a good idea if I get into some kind of class that addresses these issues and I will. Can't say I have time to practice with the thing every month but I'll certainly spend as much time as possible learning to use it proficiently. Would be fun anyway.

Pepper spray and Tazers have uses, they are great in a fist fight ;) but I wouldn't want to use either in a gun fight. :D

BTW - I bet I would get fairly good at close quarters snap shooting really quick. I've played paintball almost all of my adult life at a tournament level. I know a firearm is different but in many ways it is very similar. Reaction time is reaction time.

[MarineHawk]

Scenario - thug with a gun 6' away pointing between my eyes. If I have a gun in my pocket I should try to pull it?

Stand there motionless except for pulling the gun? No.

Move quckly out of his line as you pull the gun and fire while moving laterally? Yes.

It's unlikely he's going to have the immediate reaction to shoot before the 1/20th of a second elapses and your head leaves his sight line. Even then, he probably won't be able to keep his aim on you and also be able to realize that you are deploying a weapon. A million thoughts are going through his head. "What should I do? Is he running away? should I let him go? Is he a threat? Does he have enough money in his wallet to risk a murder charge?" Only two are going through yours. Move and fire; move and fire. IMO opinino your chances of surviving if you act effectively are greater than they are at correctly guessing whether or not he just wants your wallet or your life as well.

Modify the scenario a bit though. What if you're with your wife/sister/son/mother/girlfriend/etc. ? Going to "cooperate" then? Leave a violent criminal with total control over a loved one?

[Racer-X]

What do you guys think of this place?

http://www.frontsight.com/index.asp

[MarineHawk]

What do you guys think of this place?

http://www.frontsight.com/index.asp

Not sure. sounds good. Maybe expensive. This place is good and you get paid to train: http://www.mcrdsd.usmc.mil/RTR/trainingDS.htm

[Mrs.ssippi]

It helps that I wear my pants like this:http://staffweb.esc12.net/~lrussell/images/member2.gif

A good friend of ours works SWAT in Kansas City MO, and he said he loves it that the bad "guys" wear their pants like that. He said you know when they are going to run, because they pause to pull them up, and then they run. Works great for them and gives them a few seconds.:D

[Mrs.ssippi]

Spoken like a true whining liberal ;) "Don't do anything to upset them and they'll leave you alone" Shoot them dead and then see if they can hurt you anymore :)

Phil, I like how you think!:D

[Andy C]

The mark of a true professional is KNOWING when NOT to draw a gun.
Always remember that by drawing a weapon you have just turned a dangerous situation into a deadly one - so you had better bloody well know how to use it.

If anyone has any questions about this ask Peter Blake, oh wait he is dead. (Famous round the world sailor that was shot and killed in the Amazon after he tried to pull a gun on armed robbers, interestingly they did not kill the rest of the crew, witnesses, they just fled the scene)

[dеiтайожни]

I'd go a step further, say something like "I've got loads of money in my car, let me get it", or I've got a pile of money, here have it", something to catch their attention and focus on for a second or two, enough to disorient them long enough to put them down.

You'd be better off carrying a baseball and throwing it, then yelling crack!

http://www.kuci.org/~ziba/crackhead.gif

[PARAGON]

Not sure. sounds good. Maybe expensive. This place is good and you get paid to train: http://www.mcrdsd.usmc.mil/RTR/trainingDS.htm Umm...... that would be a ghey place to get training.;)

This would be a better choice. http://www.mcrdpi.usmc.mil/index.htm:D

[PARAGON]

Front Sight are well known and respected for their training.x2

[MarineHawk]

The mark of a true professional is KNOWING when NOT to draw a gun.
Always remember that by drawing a weapon you have just turned a dangerous situation into a deadly one - so you had better bloody well know how to use it.

If anyone has any questions about this ask Peter Blake, oh wait he is dead. (Famous round the world sailor that was shot and killed in the Amazon after he tried to pull a gun on armed robbers, interestingly they did not kill the rest of the crew, witnesses, they just fled the scene)

Your assertion seems to be in opposition to 800,000 to 2.5 million instances where law abiding citizens use firearms successfully in self defense in the U.S. every year. Note: Most estimates are much higher. 14 studies fell between 800,000 and 2.5m; one study, the lowest by far, was 108,000.
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html
http://www.gunsandcrime.org/dgufreq.html

Even 108,000 (and even ABC News acknowledged that the number was higher) is an awful lot of non-weird-rainforest incidents and many times higher than the total number of murders comitted in the U.S. every year.

As far as anectdotes, how about the time when a New Orleans resident pulled into his driveway in the mid-90s and there was a strange van in his driveway and his wife inside. [At the time, the average response time to a 911 call in N.O. was 38 minutes (I lived there and had NOPD members in my Marine Resurve unit)]. At that point, [1] he could wait who knows how long for the cops while they molest/kill his wife; [2] run in unarmed; or [3] go in there and kill the intruders. Fortunately, he chose option [3]. He saved his wife from certain tragedy.
He quickly drew his pistol and entered through the front door. He found three large men inside along with his nude wife tied to a chair. [She hadn't been raped yet.] He fired. He killed one; inured another; and pursued the third out the door. The intruders were armed and at least one was a convicted rapist (released, of course). By not "cooperating" with these guys, he saved himself and wife from some pretty serious tragedy. That kind of story happens a lot more often than the weird rain-forest stuff.

[PARAGON]

The mark of a true professional is KNOWING when NOT to draw a gun.
Always remember that by drawing a weapon you have just turned a dangerous situation into a deadly one - so you had better bloody well know how to use it.

If anyone has any questions about this ask Peter Blake, oh wait he is dead. (Famous round the world sailor that was shot and killed in the Amazon after he tried to pull a gun on armed robbers, interestingly they did not kill the rest of the crew, witnesses, they just fled the scene)Has nothing to do with professionalism. It's maintenance of life. You can never assume what someone is going to do. You don't risk yours or anyone else's life on the possibility that someone just wants your wallet. They might want the path of least resistance and take your "property" and then take your life so that there is no witnesses.

Proper employment of any weapon is a responsibility and has to be gauged by the situation. If you are willing to simply shoot someone because you can get away with it because they pointed a gun at you, then you shouldn't carry. But, sorry, if you THINK that is all that is going to occur, your chance of death in the event he chooses to kill you is 100%.

Inaction is a choice, just as choosing to shoot a badguy is. Inaction carries it's own responsibilities just as shooting someone does. Yes, making the right decisions on WHEN to act is just as important as the type of action.

Racer, in all honesty. IMO you need to re-evaluate your need to carry a gun. You have plenty of time to think these things through right now aforehand and you are second guessing the shoot/no shoot situation. I'm sorry, but the simple truth is that if you have a gun pointed at you, and unless you are 100% positive that person is not going to shoot you or another person, you have to shoot that person. You cannot guess what their actions are going to be.

I'll put it in a different perspective. If it was some grungy guy with a gun to your head and he was simply asking for your wife's purse, how can you assume he is not attempting to gain keys or something to a vehicle so he can kidnap her to take her and rape her.

[PARAGON]

Wierd,

Two Marines posting the exact same time about wive's getting hurt scenarios :confused:

[ETD]

IMHO, it is irresponsible for me and others to advise someone to not arm himself when the coroner goes over his dead body because he was in a fight without a weapon. Of course, he needs to be trained. Read the Armed Citizen feature in the American Rifleman. It's regulalry filled with stories of people who saved their lives by deploying a firearm against people who were threatening them annd/or their families. I've noticed that many of them are 80 year old women. certainly, most of them aren't Navy Seals or otherwise have a "background in close quarter combat."

Can not disagree with you there. You simply quoted one line in my answer but agreed with the rest of my premise based on your subsequent answers. I simply wanted to point out that unlike all the "80 years old women" (Is that really so?:eek: ) opportunistic gun slingers, young Racer-X here knowingly enters hostile territories and therefore needs to be and can be prepared better than just "carry & shoot". No disrespect meant to all the firearm experts out there (I am admittedly not a handgun user), just wanted to get a little deeper into preparation than just the generic "what's everyone's favorite handgun" question. You and others did indeed go deeper with links to Marines and Frontsight where he will hopefully learn anticipation rather than response will be the key i.e. he knows he is going into hostile territory, he knows what the hostile agents look like, he will be ready most of the time before there is a gun pointing at him from 6 feet away and won't have to find out "what is the best response when there is a gun pointed at my head". More importantly, he will know whether he will be able to take a living human down for good or whether he will choose evasion at that moment before the conflict goes down. Not everyone can kill another human being at close range and it is difficult to know if you can or not until after the first one. Training that involves thinking about and simulation of another human being's death helps. Young Racer-X may decide that after much study, it may be better for him to forgo "clients" that puts him in situations where his life or another human being's life is at risk of permanent room temperature status. IMHO, of course.

[MarineHawk]

Wierd,

Two Marines posting the exact same time about wive's getting hurt scenarios :confused:

I think yours was more articulate.

My wife fought off one of three attackers armed with handguns (the other two were subduing the two guys she was with) outside of a restaurant off of Greenville Ave. in Dallas in the late 90s before I knew her. She is writing a book about it and related concepts. They took one of guys' keys and were trying to start my wife's car (wrong set of keys). She instinctively began attacking the guy (had some limited martial arts experience) and sceaming loud enough to attract the valets. Bad guys realized things were going from bad to worse and fled. Who knows whether or not she would have ended up in the car and raped or worse if she had been compliant and "cooperated"? She wasn't going to let that happen, even if it meant living with a little risk that these are just misguided guys who would only get provoked by an aggressive response.
As well as that turned out, she and the other two guys would have had more options if they had been armed.

[MarineHawk]

Young Racer-X may decide that after much study, it may be better for him to forgo "clients" that puts him in situations where his life or another human being's life is at risk of permanent room temperature status. IMHO, of course.

That's definitely one option to consider.

[ETD]

Or young Racer-X does a little mathematics and figures out that for a reasonable percentage of revenue from "war-zone client" he can afford to hire a body-guard to accompany him into the war-zone. In this way, he does not have to spend $$$ and time in preparation, does his thing with "war-zone client" (WTH does Racer -X do with these clients anyways:cool: ), and let the professional worry about the hostile forces shootin & lootin. That would be optimal utilization of resources, no?

[PARAGON]

I think yours was more articulate.

My wife fought off one of three attackers armed with handguns (the other two were subduing the two guys she was with) outside of a restaurant off of Greenville Ave. in Dallas in the late 90s before I knew her. She is writing a book about it and related concepts. They took one of guys' keys and were trying to start my wife's car (wrong set of keys). She instinctively began attacking the guy (had some limited martial arts experience) and sceaming loud enough to attract the valets. Bad guys realized things were going from bad to worse and fled. Who knows whether or not she would have ended up in the car and raped or worse if she had been compliant and "cooperated"? She wasn't going to let that happen, even if it meant living with a little risk that these are just misguided guys who would only get provoked by an aggressive response.
As well as that turned out, she and the other two guys would have had more options if they had been armed.Ok, for the freaking record. I have never heard your wife's story or talked to you or about any of this before. That's too freaky for me and I am going to now go dry fire a few times.;)

[PARAGON]

Come to think of it, I was at a restuarant off of Greenville in Dallas back several years ago and .......... nahhhh couldn't be.:D

.
























Just Kidding!

[RIC-H0]

In the end, after all that is said and done in this posting,
It's a very personal decision...are you willing to shoot, or not!?
No one can make up your mind for you, just present you with the facts.

Either way, Be Safe!

[Racer-X]

Racer, in all honesty. IMO you need to re-evaluate your need to carry a gun. You have plenty of time to think these things through right now aforehand and you are second guessing the shoot/no shoot situation. I'm sorry, but the simple truth is that if you have a gun pointed at you, and unless you are 100% positive that person is not going to shoot you or another person, you have to shoot that person. You cannot guess what their actions are going to be.

I'm seeing your point. So how am I better off without a gun? If he's going to shoot me for his next crack rock - which is better - to be unarmed or hesitating to pull and shoot? ;)

I think this is where the class will come into play. All of your views are changing my thoughts on what I would do. The class would likely further that, no?

I'll put it in a different perspective. If it was some grungy guy with a gun to your head and he was simply asking for your wife's purse, how can you assume he is not attempting to gain keys or something to a vehicle so he can kidnap her to take her and rape her.

Point taken :) Edited to add: I think I would react very differently with my wife or kids around.

[Racer-X]

Young Racer-X may decide that after much study, it may be better for him to forgo "clients" that puts him in situations where his life or another human being's life is at risk of permanent room temperature status. IMHO, of course.

First off, I'm not young ;)

Second, as I said, normally I'm in great neighborhoods for a given client.

Let me give an example. I'm working for a mortgage broker or bank who's working on a reverse mortgage. 90% I'm in a great neighborhood, 9% scetchy and 1% of the time I'm in da hood.

The same client is literally responsible for say 30% of my companies income. Being picky about where I work and where I don't would lose me the client entirely. It's not a matter of greed, its a matter of survival for myself and my family.

Lots of careers have risks. Minimizing them is the key.

[ETD]

I think this is where the class will come into play. All of your views are changing my thoughts on what I would do. The classes would likely further that, no?


You got it. Good luck and Godspeed.

[PARAGON]

I'm seeing your point. So how am I better off without a gun? If he's going to shoot me for his next crack rock - which is better - to be unarmed or hesitating to pull and shoot? ;)

I think this is where the class will come into play. All of your views are changing my thoughts on what I would do. The class would likely further that, no?



Point taken :) Edited to add: I think I would react very differently with my wife or kids around.How are you better with one if you fail to employ it?

w/o a gun? It can't be used against you. There's some large percentage of individuals' own weapons being used against them. That's where awareness comes into play. I don't think I've said this enough. But more pointedly, you have no idea what the BG is going to do.

Class? Most definitely. It's more realistic and frank and goes over the pros and cons. It is invaluable for confidence, but it doesn't stop there. You have to be willing to practice after that.

On your edit: that was my point for adding that. It should not come into play in your decision making process. If someone is a danger to you or anyone else, and that danger is to cause great bodily harm or death, then you have to be willing to react and deal with the consequences OR not react and deal with those different, but otherwise very real, consequences.

[MarineHawk]

Come to think of it, I was at a restuarant off of Greenville in Dallas back several years ago and .......... nahhhh couldn't be.:D

Just Kidding!

Unless you were a 17 year old hispanic adolescent, I think you're in the clear.:cool:

[PARAGON]

Unless you were a 17 year old hispanic adolescent, I think you're in the clear.:cool:in the clear then. I was a 17 year old hispanic adult:eek:

[MarineHawk]

in the clear then. I was a 17 year old hispanic adult:eek:

Is that in dog years?;)

[MarineHawk]

Is that in dog years?;)

Devil Dog, that is.:D

[f5fstop]

So two votes for the 40 cal. and I'm a fan of S&W.
:D

Alec, ROFLMAO!

I'll go with another vote for the .40, but have to say, unless a person hits the target, even a .50 won't be effective. People knock 9s, but they are used worldwide, and sure do the job of killing someone; with the right ammo.
Military complains about the 9, but they are confined to full metal jacket rounds. Not mentioned so far (I have not read the entire thread) is ammo.
Make sure to use a reliable hollow point ammo (except in NJ, where it was illegal, probably still is).
And as others have said, practice, and I don't mean going to the range and shooting a paper target. Get some defensive shooting lessons from a reliable training facility; moving targets, sitting, close in, night, etc.
Oh, and never trust what a COP says, and even if in writing. Get the scoop from the local prosecutor, he/she is the one who decides will be prosecuted. Not sure about CA laws, but some states do have an affirmative defense clause in the law.
If you get a license, also consider liability insurance. NRA offers some on their website from a third party insurance company and it is good to have, and reasonable in price. Remember, most states do not have laws that protect your from a civil suit if little Johnnie's mom wants to sue, even after little Johnnie shot at your a half-dozen times, and you only shot back in self-defense. I would hazard to guess that CA does not have this law.

[TXSUT]

Racer, maybe I missed something, but I'm a bit confused. You say you would never shoot someone to protect your personal property, and that you won't draw your weapon on someone who has a gun pointed at you. If that is the case, then what good is carrying a handgun going to do you? What is the scenario where you can see yourself using it?

I own several handguns in .40 and .45 for defensive purposes, and unlike DRTY, I feel less felt recoil (and thus more accurate follow-up shots) with my .45s. Generally speaking, the downside to the .45 is that in equivalent handgun sizes, when compared to the .40, you're going to wind up with less capacity. I'm also pretty fond of my Sig Sauer 229 chambered in .357Sig.

Respectfully,

Pete

P.S. Marinehawk and Paragon have given excellent advice thus far, be sure you're not just skimming through their posts if you are serious about carrying a handgun.

[ETD]

First off, I'm not young ;)
:( sorry (I'd love to be young myself) I guess I thought that your avatar was a self-portrait.

Second, as I said, normally I'm in great neighborhoods for a given client.

Let me give an example. I'm working for a mortgage broker or bank who's working on a reverse mortgage. 90% I'm in a great neighborhood, 9% scetchy and 1% of the time I'm in da hood.

The same client is literally responsible for say 30% of my companies income. Being picky about where I work and where I don't would lose me the client entirely. It's not a matter of greed, its a matter of survival for myself and my family.

Lots of careers have risks. Minimizing them is the key.

Ahh Soo. Then the solution is even simpler since you are a company man. The company can provide you with a body guard and write it off as a business expense. Also they should realize that they can be liable if something happens to one of their employees while on the job. It seems to me that the expense is trivial if it is only "1%" of your job that takes you into hostile territories especially if the revenue generated is 30% of bottom line. It seems that I am the lone voice advocating for professionals to do the work they are trained to do. Remember, next time you go in for surgery that there is a lot of experience behind that scalpel cutting you and not just that it is the sharpest and best made blade in the world. Owning a weapon for protection from the unknown is one thing (heck I own lots) but knowingly going into hostile territory undermanned and outgunned is another. I know that the marines (God bless them) on this forum are quite cognizant of this basic rule of engagement. They travel in great number in a very orchestrated manner inorder to succumb the enemy all over the world and throughout modern history. Looking from the otherside, the enemy in da hood are for the most part "battle-hardened" (they may be "cowards"?? but they are "battle-hardened cowards"). No way, a few classes can give you that experience. IMHO as someone who has to plug up the holes on the bodies and a student (albeit maybe a "C" student) of the art of war (Eastern). Last $0.02 I have before I defer to the shooters here.

[Ted Kennedy]

... as someone who has to plug up the holes on the bodies

I bet you can't plug up the holes in my body. Heh, heh.

[PARAGON]

Racer, maybe I missed something, but I'm a bit confused. You say you would never shoot someone to protect your personal property, and that you won't draw your weapon on someone who has a gun pointed at you. If that is the case, then what good is carrying a handgun going to do you? What is the scenario where you can see yourself using it?

I own several handguns in .40 and .45 for defensive purposes, and unlike DRTY, I feel less felt recoil (and thus more accurate follow-up shots) with my .45s. Generally speaking, the downside to the .45 is that in equivalent handgun sizes, when compared to the .40, you're going to wind up with less capacity. I'm also pretty fond of my Sig Sauer 229 chambered in .357Sig.

Respectfully,

Pete

P.S. Marinehawk and Paragon have given excellent advice thus far, be sure you're not just skimming through their posts if you are serious about carrying a handgun.Ahh, but there is now the Springfield XD .45 ACP that I want to go molest. Good ole .45ACP but with 14 round capacity.

American Rifleman will name it handgun of the year tomorrow.

http://www.springfield-armory.com/images/xd-pistol/45acp/AdsMerged.gif

[MarineHawk]

Ahh, but there is now the Springfield XD .45 ACP that I want to go molest. Good ole .45ACP but with 14 round capacity.

I've got the .40 cal version. And, for some reason, I often shoot better with it than any of my other .40s.

[Racer-X]

Racer, maybe I missed something, but I'm a bit confused. You say you would never shoot someone to protect your personal property, and that you won't draw your weapon on someone who has a gun pointed at you. If that is the case, then what good is carrying a handgun going to do you? What is the scenario where you can see yourself using it?

Well, I said I wouldn't draw my weapon if someone had a gun pointed at me because my thought was that makes you dead - Not because I wouldn't shoot someone if I felt my life in danger.

Scenario I would use it? About 15 years ago I was working in da hood with my brother. I was inside doing some work and my brother was outside. I looked out the front and a guy had a gun pointed at my brother. I looked to the owner and told her to call 911 and walked outside, maybe it wasn't the smartest move, but hey, it was my little brother. As it turned out he was not willing to use the gun and two of us intimidated him and he backed off and walked away.

On the flip side of that, all 3 of us lived. If I had had a gun I may not be able to say that.

EDT, armed security is of course the ideal solution. However, I can't see a security company working with me on such a limited basis (about 2 hour every couple of months) without much notice. I could be wrong.

[TXSUT]

Ahh, but there is now the Springfield XD .45 ACP that I want to go molest. Good ole .45ACP but with 14 round capacity.

American Rifleman will name it handgun of the year tomorrow.



I got my magazine in the mail yesterday, and it was named as such. Not coincidentally, I'll be buying one tomorrow afternoon.

Still though, it's larger than the XD .40 (but not by much).

[Fubar]

Ahh, but there is now the Springfield XD .45 ACP that I want to go molest. Good ole .45ACP but with 14 round capacity.

American Rifleman will name it handgun of the year tomorrow.

http://www.springfield-armory.com/images/xd-pistol/45acp/AdsMerged.gif


Caliber: .45 ACP
Capacity: 13 + 1
Barrel: 4.04"
Sights: Dovetail front & rear (steel)
Size: 30 ozs. w/ mag., 7.25" overall length
Trigger Pull: 5.5 to 7.7 lbs. Ultra Safety Assurance (USATM) action trigger system
Magazines: 2 Stainless Steel 13 rd., easy glide magazines

Very nice:D

[H2 Ranger]

I would adjust the trigger pull and add in Aimpoint but then again I would probally go with "PETER STAHL" from the start.

[PARAGON]

Here we go. A 10" long 4lb monster gun. Why not carry a Desert Eagle .50 AE and not have to worry about the extra rounds.

And the last thing I would do would be to put a laser aiming device on it.

[Mr. I - Man]

Quote:And the last thing I would do would be to put a laser aiming device on it.

X2 It gives away your pos and it signals your intentions, However a PAC4 I.R. laser with a gen 4 monocular would be your best bet in a night time urban terrain multiple target scenario;)