Front leveling = Rear sagging???

[Ipedog]

Hey all -

In this thread (http://www.elcovaforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=277240#post277240) people have been talking about leveling the H3 and getting lift from the front via a t-bar crank. Way back when people were talking about how they didn't like the "stink-bug" look that the stock set up had.

Just like many of you, I have done a t-bar crank (2.5 turns) and am happy with the results. I may go another full turn soon for more clearance up front. I don't really care if the thing "looks" level. What I care about is ground clearance.

The t-bar crank can be done to give you an additional inch or more of clearance and is simple and esentially free. No one seems to be coming out with suspension lifts and when they do they are going to be big big money.
Soooo, let me ask you this: What about shackle extensions for the rear? The rear of the truck already has shackles stock:

http://ipedog.smugmug.com/photos/84485721-L.jpg

Why not get, or fabricate some, that are longer? This could give us an inch or more of rear lift for a relatively small investment.

Am I barking up the wrong tree? Is this something that we have discussed before and dismissed? I did a search but didn't find much of anything. So what are your thought folks? What am I missing? Should we our shouldn't we? Inquiring minds want to know! :D

[HummBebe]

Might as well do a spring-over conversion yes??

[Sewie]

Yeah, the clearance issues in the back are mostly from the shackles themselves.

[Ipedog]

Might as well do a spring-over conversion yes??

I guess that could be an option. :confused:

Unless I'm way off wouldn't new shackles, and maybe new shocks, installed be about 300-500 dollars and a spring over conversion about 3 to 5 thousand dollars?! :eek:

[Ipedog]

Yeah, the clearance issues in the back are mostly from the shackles themselves.

Hmmm... I hadn't noticed that here on the East coast. Maybe with the BIG slabs in Moab and the Rubicon...

[Sewie]

Hmmm... I hadn't noticed that here on the East coast. Maybe with the BIG slabs in Moab and the Rubicon...

The hangers in front of the rear wheels are the real problem. We were hitting those all weekend. :mad:

[Ipedog]

The hangers in front of the rear wheels are the real problem. We were hitting those all weekend. :mad:

Yeah... I've got LOTS of scars on them. :rolleyes:

I just re-viewed Bully13's Rubi 2006 vid to try to see where you were getting hung up in the a$$ end. It looks like when you were coming down off the slabs you were coming down onto the leaf springs, muffler, trailer hitch, and the bumper itself. Currently the shackles are above the line of the bumper so I can't see how they would be a big issue.

Oh, how did your mufflers survive coming down off the slabs with all the vehicle weight on them?

[Sewie]

The mufflers never hit AFAIK. Coming down some of those big ledges we would just ride down on the bumper / hitch.

The hangers would get caught up on rocks, almost like high-centering. We would have to get out and stack rocks in order to get enough clearance to get the rear tire up on the rock. Or just drag the hanger. :eek: :D

[Ipedog]

The hangers would get caught up on rocks, almost like high-centering. We would have to get out and stack rocks in order to get enough clearance to get the rear tire up on the rock. Or just drag the hanger. :eek: :D

You're talking about the front attachment point for the leaf spring, not the shackle way in back, right?

If you had longer shackles that would in turn raise the entire back half of the truck. Ie: a 3 inch longer shackle would hive you 1.5" to 2.5" more ground clearance at the hanger (I'm guessing here, I don't know the exact math). Do you see the shackle hanging down beneath the rear bumper being an issue that would be worse than the ground clearance you gained?

[Sewie]

I didn't get any intentional pics of us getting hung up ;) but this one kind of gives you an idea of what was happening.

http://www.h3adventures.com/coppermine/albums/uploads/rubicon0706/normal_Rubicon_046.jpg

You can see the scrape marks on the big rock under the drivers door where the hangers were hitting before we could get a tire up.

[Sewie]

You're talking about the front attachment point for the leaf spring, not the shackle way in back, right? Yes.

If you had longer shackles that would in turn raise the entire back half of the truck. Ie: a 3 inch longer shackle would hive you 1.5" to 2.5" more ground clearance at the hanger (I'm guessing here, I don't know the exact math). Do you see the shackle hanging down beneath the rear bumper being an issue that would be worse than the ground clearance you gained?

No. It's the same as the pumpkin. The only thing that will give you more clearance at the hanger is bigger tires.

[Ipedog]

Edit...

I'm not sure I agree with you Sewie. By adding the shackle aren't you forcing the axel away from the body of the vehicle? In essence lifting the hangers away from the ground.

I've been doing some research and it seems that the Colorado/Canyon people (Who have LOTS of lifts available :mad:) do shackles to do the rear lift and a t-bar crank in the front. Typically this seems to yeild about 2 inches of lift on the cheap.

This sort of lift WOULD get the front hanger up away from the rocks.

Here is a pic of a Fabtech 3.5" Spindle/Shackle lift for the colorado/canyon. Only $600 too...

http://images.autoanything.com/images/products/schem/fabtech/large/fab_chevy_3_spindle_sys_colorado.jpg

[Sewie]

Well, I'm definitely no expert. ;) Maybe some folks with more knowledge can give some input here.

[Ipedog]

Well, I'm definitely no expert. Maybe some folks with more knowledge can give some input here.
Hell, neither am I LOL. I'm just trying to envision the mechanics of this whole thing and try to get us farther into the air in a timely manner and without having to sell off our children! :eek: :rolleyes: ;)

Just so that we're on the same sheet of music... The part that you're refering to as the hanger is this, right?:

http://ipedog.smugmug.com/photos/84520687-L.jpg


No, its all good Sewie. For all I know I am totally way out in left field talking out my butt. Hopefully someone with some knowledge will chime in.

This is the way I'm figuring it (put on your thinking caps ;)):

Call the connection of the leaf spring at the hanger "A"
The connection of the axel to the leaf spring "B"
and the connection to the leaf spring at the shackle "C"

Assume that the leaf spring always returns to its basic shape

A is a fixed point and cannot move in relationship to the body of the vehicle
B is a fixed height in relationship to the ground

If C is forced down away from the truck with a longer shackle and B is a constant, fixed distance above the ground, AND the leaf spring retains its basic shape

The result is point A must be forced higher into the air. This is because if point C is pushed down then point A must go up because point B is a constant.

The end result is a lift.

Oh well... I'm probably talking out of my butt. ;-p

[HummBebe]

so we were hanging up on our hangers???

Ipe, you are doing great so far, but I need visuals of A, B and C.....prease:D

[Sewie]

so we were hanging up on our hangers???



Among other things. :mad: :D

That and the UCP were the two biggest clearance issues.

[HummBebe]

Ok, so the guys that kept saying we were hanging up on our shackles really meant we were hanging up on our hangers???

Just don't want to be confused....thanks.:D

[Sewie]

I call 'em hangers. I'm probably wrong. :p :D

But yes, that's what was hitting most of the time. Have you taken a look under your truck yet? :eek:

[HummBebe]

Ahm too askeered :eek:

[Ipedog]

so we were hanging up on our hangers???

Ipe, you are doing great so far, but I need visuals of A, B and C.....prease:D

Okay Bebe's

In this pic you see what I'm calling the hanger. Its triangular in shape and welded to the frame. Call this point A
http://ipedog.smugmug.com/photos/84520687-L.jpg


In these next two pics you see where the rear axel is attached to the leaf spring. Where the upside down U shaped bolts attach the leaf spring to the axel is point B

In this pic you can see the hanger A in the left of the pic.
http://ipedog.smugmug.com/photos/84531128-L.jpg


In the this pic you can see the shackle C in the right of the pic.
http://ipedog.smugmug.com/photos/84531070-L.jpg



In this pic you see the OEM shackle. Its about 2.3 to 3" long and is where the leaf spring attaches at end (bumper) of the truck. Call this point C
http://ipedog.smugmug.com/photos/84485721-L.jpg

Does this make it any clearer Bebe?

[HummerNewbie]

I have no clue about suspensions but why couldn't the leaf springs just go over the top of the rear axle rather than under. You would get a lift at point A & C that way too.

[Sewie]

I have no clue about suspensions but why couldn't the leaf springs just go over the top of the rear axle rather than under. You would get a lift at point A & C that way too.

http://www.elcovaforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=277334&postcount=2 ;)

[evldave]

What you want are a simple set of lift shackles. $600 is a lot of money for that. Wrangler owners use them for an easy 2" of lift.

Basically, they extend the rear mounting point of the leaf spring down from it's current position about 3-4" (or however long you want to go - more is riskier because of the forces involved). By lowering the rear of the leaf spring, you lower the tire in relation to the body, thereby raising the body.

One this you must be careful about is pinion angle. By only lowering the rear of the axle, you pivot the pumpkin UP towards the t-case, changing pinion angle - depending on conditions, you may need to shim the rear axle (at point B).

Here's what it will do for clearance (imho). The height of the pumpkin is determined by the tire height, the height of the body (and undercarraige) is determined by tire + suspension. By lifting the rear of the leaf pack, you will gain a small amount (maybe .5-1") near the front of the vehicle, but you will gain ~1-1.5" at the rear bumper. This would be very good for rock clearance on your departure angle, but shackles won't help approach (and if you raise the rear of the truck, it might hurt, relatively speaking, your approach angles).

I was at the dealer yesterday looking at the rancho lift. They have a set of long shackles in the back, maybe 4". I didn't look in the front to see if they used a hanger extension (my jeep lift had that). If you also had a hanger extension (for the front of the leaf springs), you wouldn't have pinion angle issues.



If you want to go better, get a set of revolver shackles. These are a two-piece lift shackle, that is folded in half in normal operation. When the wheel starts to drop, the shackles actually 'opens' and allows the rear axle to drop more than the leaf springs will allow. This helps on rocks to keep one extra wheel on the ground. I did a quickie google search and couldn't find any revolver shackles for the H3.

[Ipedog]

Originally Posted by HummerNewbie
I have no clue about suspensions but why couldn't the leaf springs just go over the top of the rear axle rather than under. You would get a lift at point A & C that way too.


My quick answer would be that:

You are way over the 1.5 to 2 inches of lift that the torsion bars can realisticly do
You are messing with something very complicated with an under vs. over move. I'm not sure this would be something that should be done without some SERIOUS engineeringBesides that... I can't really think of anything. I think that the first point is the key thing here though.

[HummBebe]

Okay Bebe's

In this pic you see what I'm calling the hanger. Its triangular in shape and welded to the frame. Call this point A
http://ipedog.smugmug.com/photos/84520687-L.jpg


In these next two pics you see where the rear axel is attached to the leaf spring. Where the upside down U shaped bolts attach the leaf spring to the axel is point B

In this pic you can see the hanger A in the left of the pic.
http://ipedog.smugmug.com/photos/84531128-L.jpg


In the this pic you can see the shackle C in the right of the pic.
http://ipedog.smugmug.com/photos/84531070-L.jpg



In this pic you see the OEM shackle. Its about 2.3 to 3" long and is where the leaf spring attaches at end (bumper) of the truck. Call this point C
http://ipedog.smugmug.com/photos/84485721-L.jpg

Does this make it any clearer Bebe?



CRYSTAL:D
Thanks!!

[HummBebe]

Learning makes me all giggly:D

[evldave]

http://www.oly4x4.com/teraflex.htm

Scroll halfway down, you'll see a $70 set of shackles for an XJ (Jeep Cherokee). Super cheap way of lifting the rear of your vehicle. I'd bet you can get a reputable fab shop to do the same for $100.

Watch out for buginess, though. If you crank the t-bars and also lift the rear, you're going to end up with the same 'Present thyself' stance w/the azz end up in the air - great for rear clearance, but looks funny.

[HummerNewbie]

http://www.elcovaforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=277334&postcount=2 ;)

Doh!! :o

I read that but totally forgot, sorry Bebe ;)

[Desert Dan]

I was wondering about a different set of rear leaf springs where the main leaf was flush with the bottom spring hanger. This would raise the vehicle maybe 1.5" and you wouldn't have the notch wbeteen the hanger and leaf to get hung up on a rock?

This would required a differnt bend or wrap on the main leaf and maybe add a millitary full wrap on the 2nd leaf?

Look at a Rancho leaf spring for a Jeep Wrangler or an old CJ5 or Land Cruiser.

[HummBebe]

Edit...

I'm not sure I agree with you Sewie. By adding the shackle aren't you forcing the axel away from the body of the vehicle? In essence lifting the hangers away from the ground.

I've been doing some research and it seems that the Colorado/Canyon people (Who have LOTS of lifts available :mad:) do shackles to do the rear lift and a t-bar crank in the front. Typically this seems to yeild about 2 inches of lift on the cheap.

This sort of lift WOULD get the front hanger up away from the rocks.

Here is a pic of a Fabtech 3.5" Spindle/Shackle lift for the colorado/canyon. Only $600 too...

http://images.autoanything.com/images/products/schem/fabtech/large/fab_chevy_3_spindle_sys_colorado.jpg


One small issue....may-beh... this kit is for 2WD??

2004 - 2005 Chevy/GMC Colorado/Canyon 2WD - 3.5" Spindle System

Fabtech?s Spindle system for the new midsize Colorado and Canyon features a cast replacement spindle that directly replaces the OE unit for a fast install. System includes steering stops, front brake lines and a rear shackle system to level the vehicle.

http://www.truckaddons.com/images02/suspension/fabtech/fabtech-k1013.jpg

[deserth3]

Wouldn't it be easier to have a shop make a small skid plate or cover to protect the hanger?
Could probubly come up with something to fit the reciever hitch and protect the back bumper. Though i don't know if the hitch could handle it.

[Sewie]

Wouldn't it be easier to have a shop make a small skid plate or cover to protect the hanger?

It doesn't really need protecting. It needs to get the FAWK OUTTA THE WAY!!!!! :mad: :mad: :D

Amstar is making a skid for the shock plates. But you just end up losing even more clearance. :confused: :rolleyes:

[HummBebe]

It doesn't really need protecting. It needs to get the FAWK OUTTA THE WAY!!!!! :mad: :mad: :D

x11nty bazillion

[Ipedog]

One small issue....may-beh... this kit is for 2WD??

2004 - 2005 Chevy/GMC Colorado/Canyon 2WD - 3.5" Spindle System

Fabtech?s Spindle system for the new midsize Colorado and Canyon features a cast replacement spindle that directly replaces the OE unit for a fast install. System includes steering stops, front brake lines and a rear shackle system to level the vehicle.

http://www.truckaddons.com/images02/suspension/fabtech/fabtech-k1013.jpg

I just used it as an illustration of what was available and that used a shackle in the back. I know it wouldn't fit... :mad:

Amstar is making a skid for the shock plates. But you just end up losing even more clearance.

I read somewhere from someone who had used a prototype that they just slid over the rocks smothly because they didn't have all the nooks and crannies to get hung up on. :rolleyes:

[allan p]

xterra owners have referred to such lift as the "Poor Man's Lift" or PML for some time. You can buy a set of these (http://www.purenissan.com/heavy_duty_shackles.htm) for a whopping 5o bux and lift the ass end an inch and a half to counter the front's torsion bar crank.

a l l a n

[thunderbry]

I've just been reading all of these ideas which i think are great and will work fine. But im thinking an even easier way to do this is to measure shock length and buy a simple set of air shox from your neighborhood auto zone then you could just lift the vehicle when needed as apposed to driving around with the back in the air all of the time. I had a ZR2 Chevy blazer which we have all seen with the back ends sagging to the ground and did this and it was awsome especially if you ever trailer with the vehicle you can just pump up the shox until you level it out. And it will give us all something to use those trick onboard air compressors for. I think the set of shox i bought were around $50.00. Just a thought

[wpage]

Wonder how far you could go B4 the need for extending hoses etc would be required without damage? Looking at the rear the distance from ground to universal gearcase is about 9" with stock/standard tires. If shackels were extended one inch at "C" It would have no effect there. Only raise body. This is unlike torsion bar tightening effect which effects both elements in front.
This would appear to solve the sag issue on the surface. However underneath the rear would still be low...

[Desert Dan]

I am still looking for rear spring u-bolt skid plate/sliders. Has anyone seen them? I have only seen them on th AM Star web site

A spring perch slider would be good too.


Does anyone know what spring and suspension set up they use on the Rod Hall stock class H3 race truck??

[Ipedog]

Wonder how far you could go B4 the need for extending hoses etc would be required without damage? Looking at the rear the distance from ground to universal gearcase is about 9" with stock/standard tires. If shackels were extended one inch at "C" It would have no effect there. Only raise body. This is unlike torsion bar tightening effect which effects both elements in front.
This would appear to solve the sag issue on the surface. However underneath the rear would still be low...

You're right. Point B, the axel, and the dif in the center are static in height to the ground. The only way to increase this distance is via larger tires, which many of us have done (315's or 35's).

The ultimate point of this exercise is to gain height at point A. So if a 3" longer shackle would yeild 1" to 1.5" to 2" at point A then that seems a perfect thing.

[HummBebe]

You are so smart:D :D :D

Let's get some longer shackels made....who do we know here that can do that for us???;)

[Ipedog]

You are so smart:D

Let's get some longer shackels made....who do we know here that can do that for us???;)
Aww Bebes - you're gonna make me blush! http://www.websmileys.com/sm/love/642.gif

I just got off the phone with Chad Hall and had an opportunity to speak with him about the H3 race truck and what he thought would be best for our situation.

It turns out that they run the race H3 with the following mods: V8 torsion bars (from the upcoming V8 model), a 1" body lift, 35's, and heavy duty Rod Hall shocks w/remote resovoirs. Thats it according to Chad.

When I told him what we did (Paragon, Rubicon, Moab), and what we wanted (More ground clearance), Chad seemed to think that shackles and a t-bar crank made the most sense, performance wise first and $$$ wise second. Another option to do as a second stage after the shackles would be to have the springs re-bent to add more lift. This is somthing that most spring shops are able to do according to Chad.

I am contacting one of my TTORA friends to see of they can help me fab up a set. If someone from the Forum can fab these up and is interested in helping out that would be a plus! From this conversation with Chad it seems we are on the right track. :D

Oh, he also said he was NOT impressed with the lift kit currently available for the H3 saying it is not made for off road use. Interesting... :rolleyes:

[HummBebe]

Aww Bebes - you're gonna make me blush! http://www.websmileys.com/sm/love/642.gif

I just got off the phone with Chad Hall and had an opportunity to speak with him about the H3 race truck and what he thought would be best for our situation.

It turns out that they run the race H3 with the following mods: V8 torsion bars (from the upcoming V8 model), a 1" body lift, 35's, and heavy duty Rod Hall shocks w/remote resovoirs. Thats it according to Chad.

When I told him what we did (Paragon, Rubicon, Moab), and what we wanted (More ground clearance), Chad seemed to think that shackles and a t-bar crank made the most sense, performance wise first and $$$ wise second. Another option to do as a second stage after the shackles would be to have the springs re-bent to add more lift. This is somthing that most spring shops are able to do according to Chad.

I am contacting one of my TTORA friends to see of they can help me fab up a set. If someone from the Forum can fab these up and is interested in helping out that would be a plus! From this conversation with Chad it seems we are on the right track. :D

Oh, he also said he was NOT impressed with the lift kit currently available for the H3 saying it is not made for off road use. Interesting... :rolleyes:

Same here, been told by several people not to lift the truck. I'm so glad he agrees. Awesome Job Rob!!! (hey that rhymes):D

[HummBebe]

Can someone explain the difference between a Suspension lift and a Body Lift???

And under what circumstances would you do one vs. the other?

[Ipedog]

A body lift is where you place spacers between the frame of the truck and the body (the part that you ride in ;) :p). It lifts the body higher into the air. It would give you more clearance at the rocker panels (if you modded the rocker rails to be closer to the body again) but would not solve the frame to ground clearance issue.

A suspension lift raises the entire vehicle (frame AND body) higher into the air.

Does this help?

[HummBebe]

Of course :D

Thanks!:D

[Wisha Haddan H3]

A body lift is where you place spacers between the frame of the truck and the body (the part that you ride in ;) :p). It lifts the body higher into the air. It would give you more clearance at the rocker panels (if you modded the rocker rails to be closer to the body again) but would not solve the frame to ground clearance issue.

A suspension lift raises the entire vehicle (frame AND body) higher into the air.

Does this help?

quick addition - depending on the size of the wheel wells (or with trimming) you can usually fit larger tires, which improves your frame clearance somewhat.

[HummBebe]

Thanks Wisha, but it would probably take a lot of trimming to go the next size up from 35's.:D

[Desert Dan]

Ipedog

Thanks for the race truck suspension info

When will we get a V8? Or do I have to buy the T-bars that go with it?
:)

[cestwick]

You are so smart:D :D :D

Let's get some longer shackels made....who do we know here that can do that for us???;)

I made a pair of extended shackles for mine this weekend. Took all of about an hour to make and install. I will take a few pics to night and post.

[Ipedog]

Ipedog

Thanks for the race truck suspension info

When will we get a V8? Or do I have to buy the T-bars that go with it?
:)
I get the feeling that the V8 and the T-Bars that go with it are currently made of that special material known as UNOBTANIUM :rolleyes: ;) :p :)

[Ipedog]

I made a pair of extended shackles for mine this weekend. Took all of about an hour to make and install. I will take a few pics to night and post.

Details and Pics!!! DO NOW!!! :D:D:D:D:D

[cestwick]

Details and Pics!!! DO NOW!!! :D:D:D:D:D

Well I adjusted the front torsion bars up as high as I think the truck will allow and the rear was an inch or so lower then the front.
I went to a friends welding shop and got a length of 1 1/2 by 1/4 by about 3 foot length of steel and took it back to the dealership/shop and got started. First I measured the factory ones which were 3 1/2 inches center of bolt to center of bolt. As many of you know form the last few days of posts if you lengthen the shackles you will effectively raise the truck half the length. I only need a inch, inch and a half. So I measured out an extra 2 1/2 inches and marked them at 6 inches hole to hole with an extra 3/4 inch past, for a total bar length of 7 1/2 inches, cut 4 pieces, drilled holes centered side to side and 6" centered. add some black paint of course.

To install I raised the truck on the hoist and supported the axle, removing the old shackle and installing new bars one side at a time. The only thing I haven't done with them yet is you should have a tie bar welded in between the 2 sides for support similar to the shackles pictured preveously in thread. I plan to do this soon but wanted to see how truck looked and handled before final welding..as you can see in the pics they extend past the bumper about 2 inches.. I have not tested off road much but have taken it on the test track out back and it didn't hit anything.

I am also replacing the shocks. The stock shocks work fine but they have a limited travel. The stock shocks fully extended are 24" I am replacing with BDS shocks that extend to 26". This should give me another 4 inches or so drop at the rear tire when fully extended.

[HummBebe]

How many more of these did you say you were making????:D:D:D:D:D

[evldave]

Can someone explain the difference between a Suspension lift and a Body Lift???

And under what circumstances would you do one vs. the other?

Hockey pucks between the frame and body. 1-3". More clearance for tires, no more clearance for suspension. Would help if you could get it to fix 37's, which won't happen w/a 1 or probably even a 3" body lift.

Suspension involved either springs, shackles, hangers, etc - anything under the frame. Best for moving the frame up - works well for tires as well as frame.

[evldave]

Well I adjusted the front torsion bars up as high as I think the truck will allow and the rear was an inch or so lower then the front.
I went to a friends welding shop and got a length of 1 1/2 by 1/4 by about 3 foot length of steel and took it back to the dealership/shop and got started. First I measured the factory ones which were 3 1/2 inches center of bolt to center of bolt. As many of you know form the last few days of posts if you lengthen the shackles you will effectively raise the truck half the length. I only need a inch, inch and a half. So I measured out an extra 2 1/2 inches and marked them at 6 inches hole to hole with an extra 3/4 inch past, for a total bar length of 7 1/2 inches, cut 4 pieces, drilled holes centered side to side and 6" centered. add some black paint of course.

To install I raised the truck on the hoist and supported the axle, removing the old shackle and installing new bars one side at a time. The only thing I haven't done with them yet is you should have a tie bar welded in between the 2 sides for support similar to the shackles pictured preveously in thread. I plan to do this soon but wanted to see how truck looked and handled before final welding..as you can see in the pics they extend past the bumper about 2 inches.. I have not tested off road much but have taken it on the test track out back and it didn't hit anything.

I am also replacing the shocks. The stock shocks work fine but they have a limited travel. The stock shocks fully extended are 24" I am replacing with BDS shocks that extend to 26". This should give me another 4 inches or so drop at the rear tire when fully extended.

Looks great! A couple questions:

When you installed the space (for the frame mount), did you put a bushing in there? Does it squeek?

Any flexing on the upside. What I mean is when you move the tires up, how do the springs flex up? It looks like the shackle angle might prevent upward travel (because it can't flex inward towards the axle). I'd be curious to see how it ends up working.

Oh yeah, this is some good stuff. Take pics of it offroad. Sell a set to Bebe before next weekend and let her try them out at Moab!!!!!!!!!

[HummBebe]

Oh yeah, this is some good stuff. Take pics of it offroad. Give a set to Bebe before next weekend and let her try them out at Moab!!!!!!!!! She's your Queen ya'know:p

Fissed:D

[Ipedog]

Cestwick -

Very nice work! :D How do you like it?

I have a few questions for you if you don't mind... ;)


If you refer to my last post on page 1 (illustrating the A-B-C points to Bebe) do you have before and after measurements from the ground to the bottom of the hanger A?
How many cranks of the T-Bars did you make from the stock settings?
How high are the tops of the bumpers above the ground, front and rear?
How much clearance do you have up front now? Distance from ground to center of front skid at its lowest point?
How is the ride in comparison to before the mod?Additionally, if you don't mind... :rolleyes:

Going out on the test track could you please take pics of the shackles when the truck is fully flexed? (One wheel stuffed, the other drooping as far as it can) What I want to see is what the shackles are doing when the wheels are in this position.I'm sure that I'll have more questions soon. I hope that this isn't too much trouble.

Thanks! :D

[wpage]

Looking into Gabriel or Monroe air shocks as a low cost and low tech alternative to body lift solution. This worked on my other 4x quite well. For $85.00 this offers a variable mix based on air pressure (25lb -200lb)to match what is tweaked on my front torsion adjustments (2x-5x)...

[Ipedog]

cestwick -

I have another question for you, one that may require input from the service dept...

How has the pinion angle been affected? Do you get vibration in the drivetrain now?Thanks in advance! Especially for being the poor experimental guinea pig! :rolleyes: :) :p :D

[evldave]

Looking into Gabriel or Monroe air shocks as a low cost and low tech alternative to body lift solution. This worked on my other 4x quite well. For $85.00 this offers a variable mix based on air pressure (25lb -200lb)to match what is tweaked on my front torsion adjustments (2x-5x)...

Are you sure this works for off-roading? I know air shocks work great for leveling a truck while towing, and can be used for lift when driving on pavement. But...air shocks only provide lift while inflated, and when they are inflated, they don't provide compression, which means you can't stuff the tire. If you can't stuff the tire on one side, it won't articulate down on the other. Seems like air shocks would provide a great way to lift a truck, but a poor way to lift a truck while offroading (when it's really needed, unless you are driving over some seriously high curbs at the mall). Just my 2 cents...

[Scouts Out]

I did a shackle lift on my Scout II I had, I did not like it, way to much body sway/roll, even cross winds made it feel really ugly. I went back took the shackle lift off and did new leaf springs. The longer the shackles the more body sway and roll. All for it for off road it that is where the majority of you time is spent. I put way too many miles on the highway to do longer shackes. With the home made ones, I would suggest some cross supports between the two halves of the shackles to take some twist out of them

[usetosellhummer]

some h2's had driveline, tranny problems after customer lifts. One customer who kept comming in and being a dick caliming it was us and not the lift was very upset after GM rep put a block on his warrenty. Be very careful not to void your coverage. It does happen

[cestwick]

Looks great! A couple questions:

When you installed the space (for the frame mount), did you put a bushing in there? Does it squeek? I used a metal spacer in between shock bolthead and the washer for the bushing. no noise or squeek. As I stated this is temp till new shocks get here, I just didn't want the rough ride from shocks "topping out".

Any flexing on the upside. What I mean is when you move the tires up, how do the springs flex up? It looks like the shackle angle might prevent upward travel (because it can't flex inward towards the axle). I'd be curious to see how it ends up working. With shackles installed I still have full flex. The tire will stuff all the way till axle is on bump stop.

Oh yeah, this is some good stuff. Take pics of it offroad. Sell a set to Bebe before next weekend and let her try them out at Moab!!!!!!!!!

I took some pics flexed but will have to wait till after work.

[cestwick]

Cestwick -

Very nice work! :D How do you like it? So far I like it just fine. still rides like a truck and drives like a truck.:)

I have a few questions for you if you don't mind... ;)

If you refer to my last post on page 1 (illustrating the A-B-C points to Bebe) do you have before and after measurements from the ground to the bottom of the hanger A? I did not measure before but from ground to hanger now is 13 1/2 inches.
How many cranks of the T-Bars did you make from the stock settings? I didn't count exactly I turned them about 8 turns, made sure truck was level and that I didn't have to much lift as far as alot of angle on axles and ball joints.
How high are the tops of the bumpers above the ground, front and rear? Top of front bumper is 37" off ground and top of rear is 33".
How much clearance do you have up front now? Distance from ground to center of front skid at its lowest point? lowest point on skid plate is 14"
How is the ride in comparison to before the mod? FIrst of all it is a truck. Other then that I think it rides pretty much the same.Additionally, if you don't mind... :rolleyes:

Going out on the test track could you please take pics of the shackles when the truck is fully flexed? (One wheel stuffed, the other drooping as far as it can) What I want to see is what the shackles are doing when the wheels are in this position. I took pics but can't post till I get home after 5pm cst.I'm sure that I'll have more questions soon. I hope that this isn't too much trouble.

Thanks! :D

No problem any more Q's just ask.

[cestwick]

cestwick -

I have another question for you, one that may require input from the service dept... Actually I am in the service dept.:)

How has the pinion angle been affected? Do you get vibration in the drivetrain now? I am not an engineer but I do not believe and inch, inch and a half of lift on the rear end is enough to really effect pinion angle...not much different then towing a trailer and having it and inch or 2 lower. I have driven it 4 days now and have not noticed any vibration.Thanks in advance! Especially for being the poor experimental guinea pig! :rolleyes: :) :p :D

No prob.

[cestwick]

I did a shackle lift on my Scout II I had, I did not like it, way to much body sway/roll, even cross winds made it feel really ugly. I went back took the shackle lift off and did new leaf springs. The longer the shackles the more body sway and roll. All for it for off road it that is where the majority of you time is spent. I put way too many miles on the highway to do longer shackes. With the home made ones, I would suggest some cross supports between the two halves of the shackles to take some twist out of them

I guess I do not understand how a shackle lift raising the truck an inch and a half could effect ride quality if you still have same shocks, sway bar, springs, ect...

[Ipedog]

Okay, I took some quick measurements and with 315's and 2.5 turns on the t-bars:

Front Bumper = 35"
Rear Bumper = 31"
Point A = 12.5"

I didn't measure under the skid as it's too damn hot :eek: and Reed (my 3 y/o) didn't have the patience. :rolleyes:

I appreciate the help Cestwick and look forward to seeing the pics! :D

[evldave]

I guess I do not understand how a shackle lift raising the truck an inch and a half could effect ride quality if you still have same shocks, sway bar, springs, ect...

A shackle lift will likely cause more pivot for the leaf springs. Since suspension stiffness is a combination of everything you mentioned (shocks, sway bar, etc) plus the shackles, changing anything will affect stiffness. If you think of the leaf spring bolt swinging through an arc (with the top bolt stationary, but acting as a pivot), a longer shackle will allow more swing (longer arc). Since it allows more swing, even when driving on pavement, if nothing else changes, a longer shackle will result in the suspension system having less stiffness (because ever part moves all the time, more allowed movement=more motion=less stiffness). A less stiff suspension will result in a softer ride, but will allow more sway and susceptability to crosswinds.

I can verify this because it's common for XJ owners that offroad to get stiffer springs (I used Rubicon Express 4.5" lift springs) and eliminate the sway bars. If the leaf springs are stiff enough, you can completely get rid of the sway (but don't get into an accident or try and corner too fast!). Why do this? More flex offroad.

I've also noticed on my H3 that now that my stock shocks are getting toasted (too many gravel/washboard roads) my H3 is a lot more likely to lean over in the wind. Having a big roof rack doesn't help, but it shows that any component of the suspension can have a dramatic affect on driveability. Really there's no way to accurately predict exactly how much of a difference until you try.:)

[cestwick]

Pics of truck on test track with extended shackles. Fully tucked, fully extended, articulated spring and shackle.

All this talk about lifts and adjusting the torsion bars I am kind of supprised noone has been talking about sway bar disconnects.

[evldave]

Pics of truck on test track with extended shackles. Fully tucked, fully extended, articulated spring and shackle.

All this talk about lifts and adjusting the torsion bars I am kind of supprised noone has been talking about sway bar disconnects.

Pics look good. Seems like it might be a good idea to put a support bar between the two sides of the shackle? It looks like it deflects and a support bar might prevent any problems.

Also, on the front IFS, would a sway bar disconnect really matter? Seems like suspension travel would be limited by the upper & lower arms, not the sway bar (like in a SFA).

For the rear, might be a good idea, when you flex out the rear suspension, does the sway bar limit travel down or is it the leaf springs. W/longer shackles, the sway bar might become the limiting factor (or shocks). I guess I have to get the hummer out and flex the crap out of the rear and see.:D

[cestwick]

Pics look good. Seems like it might be a good idea to put a support bar between the two sides of the shackle? It looks like it deflects and a support bar might prevent any problems. If you read all my preveous posts I stated that I was planning to put a tie bar in but wanted to wait to see how they fit and handled before I welded a bar in.

Also, on the front IFS, would a sway bar disconnect really matter? Seems like suspension travel would be limited by the upper & lower arms, not the sway bar (like in a SFA). I was talking for the rear. Front has travel limitations as we all know.

For the rear, might be a good idea, when you flex out the rear suspension, does the sway bar limit travel down or is it the leaf springs. W/longer shackles, the sway bar might become the limiting factor (or shocks). I guess I have to get the hummer out and flex the crap out of the rear and see.:D The bigest limiter is the shock (I have new longer ones on order from BDS) but if we start flexing these more then factory they are going to be another factor.

Only thing I am trying to do is level the truck and give it a hair more lift in the most cost effective manner. When all is said and done I should have an inch or 2 over stock, level truck, better articulation in rear, and the same relative ride quality for under $200.:)

[wpage]

Are you sure this works for off-roading? I know air shocks work great for leveling a truck while towing, and can be used for lift when driving on pavement. But...air shocks only provide lift while inflated, and when they are inflated, they don't provide compression, which means you can't stuff the tire. If you can't stuff the tire on one side, it won't articulate down on the other. Seems like air shocks would provide a great way to lift a truck, but a poor way to lift a truck while offroading (when it's really needed, unless you are driving over some seriously high curbs at the mall). Just my 2 cents...
My application in the South Jersey Pine Barrens may be unlike what you are facing. Your point is well taken. My wife however likes the mall curbs and advised against the air shock solution as well...
Just found out both Gabriel and Monroe dont make air shocks for the H3
so I guess its time to go cut some metal plates up!