Seized Engine!

[Jim Williams]

Hi, folks. Back again. After the rebuild of the 5 banger the engine seized at 400 miles off the repair/rebuild. Sounded like either a lifter or valve failed so you could hear it pounding into the cylinder until it seized. Apparently a rebuild will not fix this defect. I'm now in process under California's lemon law for a rebuy back of the vehicle. I do intend to replace it with another, but will "entice" the dealer to add the extended warranty without additional cost so I have some peace of mind. Any other of you rebuild customers having additional engine problems? This seems to be much more serious than originally thought so I thought I would warn you all about this potential problem. Anyone having the engine rebuilt is strongly suggested for the dealer to add on the extended warranty or you may be SOL down the road.

[PackerFever]

Does it seem to matter if the vehicle has a standard or automatic transmission?

I have the five speed and drive it pretty hard up mtn passes. I downshift into third a lot going up the steep hills and run it at 5000 rpms often.

[f5fstop]

Originally posted by Jim Williams:
Hi, folks. Back again. After the rebuild of the 5 banger the engine seized at 400 miles off the repair/rebuild. Sounded like either a lifter or valve failed so you could hear it pounding into the cylinder until it seized. Apparently a rebuild will not fix this defect. I'm now in process under California's lemon law for a rebuy back of the vehicle. I do intend to replace it with another, but will "entice" the dealer to add the extended warranty without additional cost so I have some peace of mind. Any other of you rebuild customers having additional engine problems? This seems to be much more serious than originally thought so I thought I would warn you all about this potential problem. Anyone having the engine rebuilt is strongly suggested for the dealer to add on the extended warranty or you may be SOL down the road.

I would bet, it is due to the rebuild, not the valve or head itself. The original problem with the intake valve will not cause the engine to seize; however, if not rebuilt correctly, problems will arise. When you say the valve hitting the piston, that sounds like a retainer off the valve stem, causing the valve to slip and hit the piston. If it sounded like many valves hitting many pistons, it could be the timing chain was incorrectly installed.
I hate to say this, but on any large repair like this, if the tech does not do everything just right, sh*t will happen.
That timing chain has to be perfectly aligned with the cam and crank gears, with the guides installed perfectly. Not a real hard thing to do, but the tech has to know what they are doing.
I will also say that the I-5 (and its sister the 4.2L I-6) are the hardest engines I have ever seen to replace a cylinder head. The axle has to be swung out of the way, or completely removed, to remove the oil pan, in order to get the front cover off, to remove the timing chain and guides. Literally, it is a pain in the arse to work on for a cylinder head repair. Average repair time is around 18 hours.

Good luck and hope you get one that gives you no problems.

From what I have seen and heard, there is no rhyme nor reason for this to be happening. No common thread can be found. No apparent line problems at the manufacturer, no weather related causes (all in high temp or low temp areas), and it is driving the engineering community crazy at this time.
Surprisingly, for the number of I-5s out there, the number is still low (200 or less nationwide that have been repaired, maybe another 50 being worked on but not claimed by the dealers, yet), but believe me, GM is looking for a root cause. (Sorry to say, but the greater number of failures helps to find the cause.)
We have an original captured test vehicle (been to Moab and back and driven all around MI and the south) in the back, with well over 35K miles and they are in the process of removing the head today to see what type of wear is on the valves. This engine runs perfectly, so it may not give us any clues.

[PARAGON]

Well it's certainly not the engine as a whole. If it were, with the number of I-5s on the road through the H3s, Colos and Canyons, an engineering defect would have been statistically evident.

I noticed that you were very careful in not saying that the same cylinder was the culprit again. It sucks that you are having to deal with a problem of this magnitude but this does not qualify for lemon law status in most states. It's way too common for engine rebuilds to go wrong and for something to break at 400 miles is indicative of the rebuild. Best case scenario is that you get a whole new engine, head mated to block, ready-to-go so that you don't have to worry about a rebuild again.

[Steve - SanJose]

I am puzzled by the repair/rebuild rather than entire engine replacement. I would have expected that GM would prefer to study the entire defective engine.

S.

[NEOCON1]

hey if i blow mine up next year can i get the 3.7 ? http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif 12k miles and runnin strong

[Steve - SanJose]

Originally posted by NEOCON1:
hey if i blow mine up next year can i get the 3.7 ? http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif 12k miles and runnin strong

Yea wouldn't that be great. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Continue driving these rigs hard. No need to baby the motor just because of a few isolated horror stories.

S.

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Steve - SanJose:
I am puzzled by the repair/rebuild rather than entire engine replacement. I would have expected that GM would prefer to study the entire defective engine.

S. They have already pulled whole engines and sent them back that experienced this problem so they have their sample of whole engines.

[Jim Williams]

Only one cylinder was hitting the valve. I don't know if it was #1. It happened at 8:30 pm while idling at a busy intersection. I tried to keep rpm's up to around 1k so it wouldn't stall, but it seized as the light was changing. Carlsbad police had to block off the intersection so I wouldn't get hit as this is a 55 mph street. We sat for 1 1/2 hours waiting for a tow truck that could accomodate the H3 while my neighbors watched. Worst part was a ride home with my girlfriend in the back of a police cruiser, she's not too happy about that and neighbors are talking now!

I don't work engines hard, mostly because of $3 gallon gas prices ( I do 65 on the freeways) and I don't want to stress engine parts due to wanting long term reliability. I've never hit 5k rpm's other than a passing situation which was brief.
Now I have to deal with obtaining a buy back, ordering another custom car and waiting another 2 months after the buy back which could take months as well. This is the second H3 that I ordered as the first one, custom ordered 7-7-05 was sold off the lot August 15, 2 days before I was to pick it up by a mis-informed salesman that couldn't read the "sold" sign on the windshield.. They did add some goodies to keep me from going to another dealer while I waited for another custom H3.
Now I have to deal with the removal of my flat black Pro Comp 16x8 wheels and the 33"x12.5" Pro Comp mud terrrains (luckily I kept my original Dueler tires and rims) and the removal of my K&N air filter and intake. I haven't figured how to do this as my other car is a very reliable '04 Jeep Wrangler X and I can't fit even one wheel in there.
Any sane person would call it a day and walk from Hummer, but this is my dream vehicle so I'm going to get a third one ordered. Since I know what I want, Green, green interior, no leather, Adventure package, front brush guard, auto tranny, XM radio, monsoon sound, no chrome, I'm willing to wait as I had intended to keep this car for 200k miles or 10 years. I've bought 6 new cars/trucks in the last 11 years and have had not one problem with any of them, although none were GM vehicles.
Soory for the long post but I thought telling the rest of the story might help explain my frustration.
Pray for me.

[Jim Williams]

BTW, I didn't mention the "wirring" sound from my front left wheel. It hear it when I drive around 45 mph, when I lightly press the brakes or turn slightly right, it goes away. The dealer can't find that either, they only hear my 33x12" Pro Comp mud terrrains but everyone else riding with me has heard it.
California lemon law states the vehicle is to be replaced if the same problem requires 3 trips back for repairs on the same problem within the first year.
First trip back was for the engine light/rebuild, 2nd trip back was for the foul burning engine smell, ( an omen for the problems to come, I suppose), 3rd trip back was via tow truck for a seized engine.

[Steve - SanJose]

Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Steve - SanJose:
I am puzzled by the repair/rebuild rather than entire engine replacement. I would have expected that GM would prefer to study the entire defective engine.

S. They have already pulled whole engines and sent them back that experienced this problem so they have their sample of whole engines. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess that is somewhat reassuring...

S.

[ChevyHighPerformance]

Originally posted by Jim Williams:
BTW, I didn't mention the "wirring" sound from my front left wheel. It hear it when I drive around 45 mph, when I lightly press the brakes or turn slightly right, it goes away. The dealer can't find that either, they only hear my 33x12" Pro Comp mud terrrains but everyone else riding with me has heard it.
California lemon law states the vehicle is to be replaced if the same problem requires 3 trips back for repairs on the same problem within the first year.
First trip back was for the engine light/rebuild, 2nd trip back was for the foul burning engine smell, ( an omen for the problems to come, I suppose), 3rd trip back was via tow truck for a seized engine.

Some states' lemon law has an additional clause that the qualifies the vehicle if it was out of service for something like 20 days (also has the same problem three times clause).

[aggiehummer...er]

You can no longer order Green H3s.

[f5fstop]

Originally posted by Jim Williams:
Only one cylinder was hitting the valve. I don't know if it was #1. It happened at 8:30 pm while idling at a busy intersection. I tried to keep rpm's up to around 1k so it wouldn't stall, but it seized as the light was changing. Carlsbad police had to block off the intersection so I wouldn't get hit as this is a 55 mph street. We sat for 1 1/2 hours waiting for a tow truck that could accomodate the H3 while my neighbors watched. Worst part was a ride home with my girlfriend in the back of a police cruiser, she's not too happy about that and neighbors are talking now!

I don't work engines hard, mostly because of $3 gallon gas prices ( I do 65 on the freeways) and I don't want to stress engine parts due to wanting long term reliability. I've never hit 5k rpm's other than a passing situation which was brief.
Now I have to deal with obtaining a buy back, ordering another custom car and waiting another 2 months after the buy back which could take months as well. This is the second H3 that I ordered as the first one, custom ordered 7-7-05 was sold off the lot August 15, 2 days before I was to pick it up by a mis-informed salesman that couldn't read the "sold" sign on the windshield.. They did add some goodies to keep me from going to another dealer while I waited for another custom H3.
Now I have to deal with the removal of my flat black Pro Comp 16x8 wheels and the 33"x12.5" Pro Comp mud terrrains (luckily I kept my original Dueler tires and rims) and the removal of my K&N air filter and intake. I haven't figured how to do this as my other car is a very reliable '04 Jeep Wrangler X and I can't fit even one wheel in there.
Any sane person would call it a day and walk from Hummer, but this is my dream vehicle so I'm going to get a third one ordered. Since I know what I want, Green, green interior, no leather, Adventure package, front brush guard, auto tranny, XM radio, monsoon sound, no chrome, I'm willing to wait as I had intended to keep this car for 200k miles or 10 years. I've bought 6 new cars/trucks in the last 11 years and have had not one problem with any of them, although none were GM vehicles.
Soory for the long post but I thought telling the rest of the story might help explain my frustration.
Pray for me.

Definitely not the same problem. With the problem everyone here is having, the intake valve guide wears for some reason, causing the engine control module to see a misfire and set a code P0300.
This bring you into the dealer, they do a leakdown test and find number one cylinder leaking. So, the remove the cylinder head, and install a new head with new valves and seals. Seats are already installed (checked today, wasn't sure yesterday).
If the engine sucked a valve, it was improperly installed by the tech. Most likely if only one valve, the retainer on that valve was not installed correctly. Technician error...but still it is a good reason for a buy back, and honestly, I would do the same thing, if in your position.
New cylinder heads have hardened valve guides and this solves the problem.
Why it does not happen on all engines is the mystery no one can seem to answer.
Right now it takes over 16 hours to remove/replace the cylinder head. In a few weeks it will take about eight hours, we worked on a new method to R&R today, and hopefully, it will be finalized in a few weeks.
Cylinder heads should become more available as time goes on, so the wait if it happens to someone else in the future, should be a few days, versus a few weeks.
There is no need for the head to go to a machine shop. All is required is the valves be lapped to the new head, and this take a few minutes per valve (20 valves x 2 minutes - 40 minutes). Installing seals, valves, springs and retainers is not hard, but if the retainers are not installed correctly, the valve will fall and be sucked into the engine. May or may not damage the piston, depending on if it stays free and just bounces around. In your case, locking the engine, makes be believe the valve jammed, the piston failed, the engine locked.
At least you would probably get a complete engine out of the next repair. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Good luck...

[NEOCON1]

are there any symptoms to watch for before this failure ?

[f5fstop]

No, but you can continue to drive and not cause any future harm, except to the number one intake valve guide. You will have a rough idle, but driving will be ok, no power lose.

[Jim Williams]

The latest is the pin holding the timing chain broke, this fried the cam, but the engine still turns. Somehow, the towing trip to the dealer somehow un-froze the engine as it wouldn't turn for me. So they are installing a new cam in this rebuilt engine. I have little faith this motor will last, so Hummer is arranging to add an extended warranty of 100k miles so I can sleep at night. As everyone of the 6 new cars/trucks I've bought in the last 11 years all had extended warrenties that were never needed, I thought GM had it's act together and I didn't get it with this H3. Bad mistake. If any of you are to keep these beyond the standard warranty period, buy the extended warranty or you may be SOL.

[f5fstop]

Not sure what pin they are talking about, but I still say that it is not the engine; except for the cylinder head problem. Something wasn't installed correctly when the tech replaced the timing chain, guides or tensioner. The chain is actually held in place by gears and guides, along with a tensioner in the lower left of the engine. The tensioner has a pin for releasing the tensioner, I wonder if this is the pin they are talking about, and how did it screw up a cam. A cam gear yes, but the cam?
To replace the cylinder head is an extensive repair; however, if the tech does it right, it is a no problem repair. Screw one thing up, and pieces will fly.

[Steve - SanJose]

Terrible sequence of events with that motor. It's done, should be replaced by now.

S.

[Jim Williams]

The service mngr. called monday and said the cam was in and they expected to have the engine rebuilt and ready by Wed. or thurs. I went by last night to pick up my sister's chevy and they said it's still up on the rack. My guess is they're having problems making this run.
I awaiting Hummer customer service to call back Mon. to check progress. They are offering to add the extended warantee to 100k miles, but they won't like hearing that the engine is still down. That may be the push they need to get me a new engine.
Pray for me.

[f5fstop]

And Hummer should be pissed. Camshaft replacement is a half day job with the right special tools, and all Hummer dealers have been given the right special tools. Not like the pain in the ass head replacement, camshafts are extremely easy to take off and replace.
This dealer is really putting you off, and from what you have reported. screwing GM/Hummer in the process. It is very evident they have no idea what they are doing or are just lying to the customer about what they have to do.
We have been working for the past week on the cylinder head removal to shorten the time without causing any engine damage.
Good luck....

[Av1ator]

I tried to get Hummer to give me a new engine when mine was out of service for a month waiting for a head and parts. They said there was no way they were giving me new engine until ALL efforts to repair mine had failed.

[Steve - SanJose]

Originally posted by Av1ator:
I tried to get Hummer to give me a new engine when mine was out of service for a month waiting for a head and parts. They said there was no way they were giving me new engine until ALL efforts to repair mine had failed.

Refresh our memory please on what the final outcome of your dealer's clusterf**k regarding your engine...

[Av1ator]

I took my H3 in with the engine light on. It had a cracked intake manifold and low compression on cylinder THREE and was running rough at idle. Dealer was able to get intake quickly but took a few days to decide what to do about the low compression. They decided the fix was to replace the whole top end. It took about a month to get the parts. I drove an H3 rented trough Enterprise and paid for by GM while my H3 was in the shop. During the time it was in the shop I asked for a new engine and was told THE ONLY WAY that GM would replace my engine was if all attempts to fix it failed. It now runs PERFECT and I am Very Happy with my H3.

[Steve - SanJose]

Av1 - good ending to a long painful story. Glad you've got your H3 back running strong.

S.

[Jim Williams]

Got it back yesterday. Here's the story:
0 psi compression on all cylinders. Removed cam shaft, intake camshaft bolt loose and locating pin sheared off causing gear to turn on cam. Valves OK. Replaced intake camshaft, gear and bolt, also replaced exhaust cam gear.
After roadtest, vehicle would not start. No fuel pressure. Fuel pump relay found loose terminal in underhood electrical center. Replaced block.
I also had a no start out in the Borrego Desert last winter. The neg. battery terminal was loose so I tightend it on the spot, good to go. Sounds like a bit of poor assembly here, maybe it's a Monday car.
Now I'm back to my third engine break in period.

Pray for me.

[NoMoGMPG]

Originally posted by Steve - SanJose:
I am puzzled by the repair/rebuild rather than entire engine replacement. I would have expected that GM would prefer to study the entire defective engine.

S.

You can bet they will be asking for that engine back. I smell a chargeback to the repairing dealer for incompetent work. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

There is nothing chronic about this engine that I have noticed, only the normal small small percentage of quality failures.

[f5fstop]

Originally posted by Jim Williams:
Got it back yesterday. Here's the story:
0 psi compression on all cylinders. Removed cam shaft, intake camshaft bolt loose and locating pin sheared off causing gear to turn on cam. Valves OK. Replaced intake camshaft, gear and bolt, also replaced exhaust cam gear.
After roadtest, vehicle would not start. No fuel pressure. Fuel pump relay found loose terminal in underhood electrical center. Replaced block.
I also had a no start out in the Borrego Desert last winter. The neg. battery terminal was loose so I tightend it on the spot, good to go. Sounds like a bit of poor assembly here, maybe it's a Monday car.
Now I'm back to my third engine break in period.

Pray for me.

The initial cylinder head problem was GM's problem and hopefully that has been fixed.
However, from what you have said, the technician did one of two things in regard to the camshaft, and I will assume number one is the real cause.
1. The cam gear to camshaft requires a NEW torque-to-yield bolt, the old bolt cannot be used once it has been torqued. So, I would bet a lunch, they installed the old bolt, torqued it, and it lost torque due to the threads already stretched to their max.
2. He didn't torque the bolt as specified, it came lose, and bingo, gear spins with chain.
The electrical problems can be related to this technician too. It is recommended to remove the fuse block to gain access to many items that are removed to service the head. He could have banged it around a bit too much breaking the terminal.
Intake manifold is plastic. Over torquing, either with a torque wrench or power tool, will crack. That is why the service procedures tell them to tighten, then torque with a torque wrench. If they don't, it can crack or warp.

Can't pray for you, since I don't believe in it, but I sure hope that everything is ok. If not, and I was you, I would jump into Hummers **** so bad, demand a new engine or a new vehicle, and I would NEVER allow anyone in that dealer to touch anything, including adding air to a tire.

Sounds to me like the technician was sloppy, hurried the job, doesn't understand torque-to-yield bolt usage, and needs to see if Walmart is hiring greeters.

[Steve - SanJose]

Pray for and demand a new H3 or worst case new engine. Extending the warranty on this hack job(s) is not the solution.

S.

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Steve - SanJose:
Pray for and demand a new H3 or worst case new engine. Extending the warranty on this hack job(s) is not the solution.

S. Nothing's wrong with the current rebuild if you assume that is the only thing the technician did wrong. You would be stupid not to take the extended warranty over a new engine. The freaking warranty covers the "hack job" and anything else that might go wrong during the term of the warranty, all because the technician failed to install a cam gear correctly (we hope is all).

[Steve - SanJose]

Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Steve - SanJose:
Pray for and demand a new H3 or worst case new engine. Extending the warranty on this hack job(s) is not the solution.

S. Nothing's wrong with the current rebuild if you assume that is the only thing the technician did wrong. You would be stupid not to take the extended warranty over a new engine. The freaking warranty covers the "hack job" and anything else that might go wrong during the term of the warranty, all because the technician failed to install a cam gear correctly (we hope is all). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Too much hoping and assuming about the "hack job" rebuild so far on Mr. William's H3. And too many breakdowns and trips to the shop. A new H3 would be preferred at this point, with an extended warranty for all his trouble.

S.

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Steve - SanJose:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Steve - SanJose:
Pray for and demand a new H3 or worst case new engine. Extending the warranty on this hack job(s) is not the solution.

S. Nothing's wrong with the current rebuild if you assume that is the only thing the technician did wrong. You would be stupid not to take the extended warranty over a new engine. The freaking warranty covers the "hack job" and anything else that might go wrong during the term of the warranty, all because the technician failed to install a cam gear correctly (we hope is all). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Too much hoping and assuming about the "hack job" rebuild so far on Mr. William's H3. And too many breakdowns and trips to the shop. A new H3 would be preferred at this point, with an extended warranty for all his trouble.

S. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Then why not expect to get a free upgrade to a H2 as well if your going that far. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[cestwick]

If you don't have any luck with this rebuild and have to get a new one I know that lynch hummer has about 20 green h3's in stock. I have been looking at green/green, adventure, monsoon, brush gaurd, tow package, ect..and they have around 8 of them. Should be able to get a dealer trade. Now all I have to do is find someone to buy my Harley.