Newby thread Highjacked - Lets talk about filters!

[Xotik H3]

I am not a K&N pusher, but use the product. There are a lot of people on here who dislike them. So here is the place to discuss.

From the K&N site,

http://www.knfilters.com/testmethod.htm

http://www.knfilters.com/efficiency_testing.htm

Other opinions

http://www.duramax-diesel.com/spicer/index.htm


My experience,

1999 Camaro - 90,000 miles, no issues K&N on since new.
2003 ZO6 Magnacharged - No issue's with K&N kit 15,000 miles (sold)
2002 Jeep Rubicon - No issue's 50,000 miles K&N and Gibson Exhaust Nice power gains with the two (Sold)
2004 Infinity FX35 - No issues K&N 75,000 miles (Sold)
2005 Big Dog Chopper - No issue's, K&N added per dealer request, and no I did not purchase it from them.

:beerchug:

[lennyrebel]

I liked that independent report--K&N plugged up 3x faster and passes 7x more dirt so everything comes with a price. Good Info Regards The Rebel:iagree:

[Steve - SanJose]

No thanks, any puny increase in power is offset by suspect filtration and unpleasant intake noise.

[Viet Nam Vette]

No thanks, any puny increase in power is offset by suspect filtration and unpleasant intake noise.

And A Motor Full Of Dirt...:clapping:

[Huck BB62]

It does make sense that the K&N lets more dirt through. An air filter traps dirt with media. The air flow is restricted by the media. The only way to trap dirt is to have smaller openings. To have better air flow, the openings either have to be larger or their has to be a lot more surface area, more pleats. Since the K&N obviously doesn't have more surface area of media, it must have larger openings. This would explain the enhanced flow when clean. BUT the dirt IS attracted to the oil. I do know from our testing (we have air filters three stories tall) that as the filters clog up, they become better at filtration. So about the time K&N filters become as efficient as the dry filters, they also lose their advantage for air flow.

If you're not going to keep your vehicle a long time, go for the K&N, it does flow better. Keep it clean and enjoy the increase, if you believe the hype that is.

A few issues back in the Diesel Power Magazine, they tested ten of the intakes. High dollar to low, they made zero difference.

The intakes are a waste of money in my opinion.

[kma]

Have you actually tried an after market intake on an h3? There is definitely a noticeable difference in power including holding speeds and downshifting.

There is another question as to air filters though and that is if the engine need more air. I think the H3 performs better with the additional air flow after switching back and forth between a K n N and the OEM filter.

Also, I read somewhere(have to look around) that oil gauze filters pass like 99% of the dirt in the first 3% of the filter life. So I wouldn't install an oil filter right before going off-roding in the desert. On a recent trip I replaced my OEM Filter for the trail.

[H3.007]

Sorry guys but-

:iagree:

Mine picks up much more speed, much quicker...

But agreeably, it is loud in the high end.

I wonder how many vehicles were tested during those tests. One vehicle plus ten filters doesn't equivocate to a proper research sample in my book. Ten vehicles with ten different filters applied to each vehicle - now we are getting somewhere....

:D

[Steve - SanJose]

I drove the dealer's H3 with the SMA intake, all I could feel is more noise. Measuring acceleration differences is not the same as the illusion of more speed/perception based on noise. So far, haven't seen any facts to support the intakes and improved performance on H3.

[bparker]

K&N all the way here too on all my race cars, Corvettes and Motorcycles.

Consiracy Theories that you have mounds of dirt in your motor from these filters are rubbish.

All and any tiny pieces of "dust" that makes it into the cylinder chamber is incenerated upon detonation OR if not it is passed out of the motor through the exhaust port on the cylinder head into the exhaust and then burned up again at the cyatilic converter.

Also if for some other reason it is left behind it is caught by the oil and then filtered out by the oil filter..

[Xotik H3]

In this case, more noise is the byproduct of more flow.

Really though, when it comes down to it, I would not think it would be easy to "feel" 5 HP. Where you would notice the improvement is down low in the RPM band where the extra flow will improve the efficiency adding torque.

On my Wranglers stock engine, 5 speed, 33 inch tires.

- 5 gear was not usable at 1500 RPM -
- K&N added, you could use 5th at 1500, not usable at 1300 RPM.
- Added Gibson exhaust you could use at 1300, not usable at 1100 RPM.

What does that mean, I improved the engines ability to get more air, more fully filling the combustion chamber, ADDING TORQUE, then more fully expelling the exhaust, adding MORE TORQUE.

I could not "feel" the difference and could not tell you if it made a zero to 60 run difference. I am sure it did but only in a 10th of a second or two. In the higher RPM band is where you will always see the best gains, but really, who wants to twist the I5 to 5500 RPM.

An engine is like an air pump, the easier you can make it pull air in, or expel air the more efficient it is, which means more HP and more torque. In the H3 you will notice it under load from towing, and perhaps in 1 to 2 additional MPG.

Please do not confuse my statements with engine management - fuel or spark curves, ect. This is a basic look. :twak:

[H3.007]

Who said anything about noise correlating with performance?

Regarding the noise, I thought it might have had to do with the lack of the resonance chamber being present in the application. But hell, it is only loud in the high RPMs, where I am rarely at, and the neighborhood kids love it when I kick it in :)

I do not, however, believe it has saved me any fuel. But then again, I constantly drive it likes it is stolen. I suppose GM conducted their MPG tests with no extra weight and at an exact, average speed limit...

Regarding the comment on the lack of studies proving it, where are the valid and reliable studies proving that the kits do not work and do indeed damage engines?

Like I said above, one vehicle with ten filters changed in and out is not a valid nor reliable scientific study by any means.... Further, wasn't that on a diesal engine?

:popcorn:

[stagger_lee]

In this case, more noise is the byproduct of more flow.

Really though, when it comes down to it, I would not think it would be easy to "feel" 5 HP. Where you would notice the improvement is down low in the RPM band where the extra flow will improve the efficiency adding torque.

On my Wranglers stock engine, 5 speed, 33 inch tires.

- 5 gear was not usable at 1500 RPM -
- K&N added, you could use 5th at 1500, not usable at 1300 RPM.
- Added Gibson exhaust you could use at 1300, not usable at 1100 RPM.

What does that mean, I improved the engines ability to get more air, more fully filling the combustion chamber, ADDING TORQUE, then more fully expelling the exhaust, adding MORE TORQUE.

I could not "feel" the difference and could not tell you if it made a zero to 60 run difference. I am sure it did but only in a 10th of a second or two. In the higher RPM band is where you will always see the best gains, but really, who wants to twist the I5 to 5500 RPM.

An engine is like an air pump, the easier you can make it pull air in, or expel air the more efficient it is, which means more HP and more torque. In the H3 you will notice it under load from towing, and perhaps in 1 to 2 additional MPG.

Please do not confuse my statements with engine management - fuel or spark curves, ect. This is a basic look. :twak:

:clapping: :iagree:

[lennyrebel]

K&N all the way here too on all my race cars, Corvettes and Motorcycles.

Consiracy Theories that you have mounds of dirt in your motor from these filters are rubbish.

All and any tiny pieces of "dust" that makes it into the cylinder chamber is incenerated upon detonation OR if not it is passed out of the motor through the exhaust port on the cylinder head into the exhaust and then burned up again at the cyatilic converter.

Also if for some other reason it is left behind it is caught by the oil and then filtered out by the oil filter..
Now if you really don't mind noise and contamination in your intake etc. move right up and get a marine flame arrestor;you'll really decrease filter drag and as long as your in a clean enviroment you'll up the horsepower and only have to swish arrestor in varsol every couple years if you want.The Rebel:excited:

[Steve - SanJose]

A lot of "believing" about K&N performance and mpg benefits, but no facts supporting any substantial gains on the H3. No thanks.

[H3.007]

*Sigh*

As I already said above:

Regarding the comment on the lack of studies proving it, where are the valid and reliable studies proving that the kits do not work and do indeed damage engines? :yawn:

[Xotik H3]

A lot of "believing" about K&N performance and mpg benefits, but no facts supporting any substantial gains on the H3. No thanks.

:shhh: All is right with world... go drive your H3.

[bparker]

No, I am not so anal about "noise" I bought an off road truck not a lexus sedan - further more I use the radio, listen to music which makes the "noise" irrelavent. If you want a car to be so quiet I think one should look for a lux sedan.

My thoughts having suped up sports cars and motorcycles all of my life I find to complain about something as a tiny bit more "noise" made by an air intake is like complaining about a CD changer making noise while it changes CDs.

Now if you really don't mind noise and contamination in your intake etc. move right up and get a marine flame arrestor;you'll really decrease filter drag and as long as your in a clean enviroment you'll up the horsepower and only have to swish arrestor in varsol every couple years if you want.The Rebel:excited:

[Steve - SanJose]

I agree that the H3 is a truck and I would expect it to drive and sound like a truck (not like a car). In fact I have the Corsa dual outlet system on my H3. Power increase is so small that it can barely be felt, but it looks cool and sounds like a DOHC straight 6 at higher revs. Yea it's a bit louder than the pitch quiet stock exhaust.

[Huck BB62]

Who said anything about noise correlating with performance?



Like I said above, one vehicle with ten filters changed in and out is not a valid nor reliable scientific study by any means.... Further, wasn't that on a diesal engine?

:popcorn:

Well, they did use a dyno. Call me nutty, but that carry's a little weight compared to the "it felt faster" point of view.

Yeah, the tests are on a diesel. I've yet to see where K&N builds their filter any different for any application from a Toyota Tercel up to a Viper.

I can't figure out for the life of me why, after reviewing the above website that tests K&N filters, someone would choose to abuse their engine that way unless they figured on selling it instead of keeping it. The test is a damnation of their media, not of the intake system, and beyond that the other test that I referenced is a test of SEVERAL systems. Today's intakes are damned well engineered and don't need, or benefit, from upgrades or modifications with a stock engine. Even at that, I will never believe the K&N claims again unless I see a dyno test, period.

The H3 intake is already a cold air system. Looking at it, and the displacement of the I-5, it's hard to see any gains to be made by spending money on the K&N or any other intake. The stock filter is very large for the engine's displacement. As others have said on here, it's an air pump. If the engine isn't capable of moving more air than the stock filter and intake are capable of flowing without restriction, then there's no benefit to spending the money on the "upgrade".

[kma]

Hello all. I can feel the increase in power.

[kma]

I figure that last response is just as relevant as almost every single response refuting an increase in performance on an H3.

BTW. nobody is telling you to buy one, some people are just telling you what they have found to be true.

[Xotik H3]

Well, they did use a dyno. Call me nutty, but that carry's a little weight compared to the "it felt faster" point of view.

Yeah, the tests are on a diesel. I've yet to see where K&N builds their filter any different for any application from a Toyota Tercel up to a Viper.

I can't figure out for the life of me why, after reviewing the above website that tests K&N filters, someone would choose to abuse their engine that way unless they figured on selling it instead of keeping it. The test is a damnation of their media, not of the intake system, and beyond that the other test that I referenced is a test of SEVERAL systems. Today's intakes are damned well engineered and don't need, or benefit, from upgrades or modifications with a stock engine. Even at that, I will never believe the K&N claims again unless I see a dyno test, period.

The H3 intake is already a cold air system. Looking at it, and the displacement of the I-5, it's hard to see any gains to be made by spending money on the K&N or any other intake. The stock filter is very large for the engine's displacement. As others have said on here, it's an air pump. If the engine isn't capable of moving more air than the stock filter and intake are capable of flowing without restriction, then there's no benefit to spending the money on the "upgrade".

There are 2 problems with your statements - :twak:

First- Intakes are made to flow in a compromise between air needed and durability. The engineers must take into account the worst possible environment that the H3 could be subject to. In this instance I will use a sandstorm in Iraq... the stock set-up will protect your engine in that environment... I don't plan on driving my H3 in a sandstorm so I don't need that protection. My media with less restriction will provide my engine the protection it needs while allowing better flow.

Second - No matter how large your intake it is only as efficient as it's biggest restriction. Any engine, including a lawnmower will benefit from a less restrictive air intake. A naturally aspirated engine works on Vacuum in order to pull air in and the closer you get to Atmospheric pressure the better... any media what so ever will limit the amount of air molecules that can fill the void in any given amount of time, in this case the intake valve open time. The more air molecules, the more fuel you can pack to reach your ideal air/ fuel ratio. For simplicity sake, I will use a 14:1 air fuel ratio. If I can add 14 more parts of air than you, I can add 1 more part of fuel than you. I have increased the explosive charge in my engine, X5 (1 per cylinder) over your engine, which allows me greater power.

[Steve - SanJose]

I'll accept the carefully GM engineered (at considerable expense) intake system on my H3. But I will risk moding the intake on my lawn mower:D .

[Viet Nam Vette]

I'll accept the carefully GM engineered (at considerable expense) intake system on my H3. But I will risk moding the intake on my lawn mower:D .


X2.....:jump:

[Xotik H3]

I'll accept the carefully GM engineered (at considerable expense) intake system on my H3. But I will risk moding the intake on my lawn mower:D .

:perfect10s: I love that response!!

[HUMTECH]

To add to xotik's post, more air flow into the combustion chamber the computer will add more fuel when it senses A lean mixture, add A cold air intake and the air is more dense again allowing more air molecules into the combustion chamber again more fuel will be added. Now you need to get it out for it to be truly efficient which will require exhaust upgrades.

[RubHer Yellow Ducky]

To add to xotik's post, more air flow into the combustion chamber the computer will add more fuel when it senses A lean mixture, add A cold air intake and the air is more dense again allowing more air molecules into the combustion chamber again more fuel will be added. Now you need to get it out for it to be truly efficient which will require exhaust upgrades.

for the past year thread after thread has talked about cold air intakes...

AND

for the past year I and others have told people the H-3 comes from the factory with cold air intake. Take a couple of minutes and trace it while looking under the hood. It feeds from (within) the right front fender, not from under the hood.

RYD

[Huck BB62]

for the past year thread after thread has talked about cold air intakes...

AND

for the past year I and others have told people the H-3 comes from the factory with cold air intake. Take a couple of minutes and trace it while looking under the hood. It feeds from (within) the right front fender, not from under the hood.

RYD

Exakry!

One other thing that people aren't considering with all their high dollar "less restrictive" systems: The MAF sensor is the same diameter.

All this talk means squat. Dyno sheets are the only thing that I believe and if you're only talking a few horsepower at the sake of dirt ingestion, well, that's a decision that people have to make.

[Steve - SanJose]

Yea but think of the obscene profit margins on those aftermarket intake systems, and without any real R&D spending. Nice short term business model for some. I like the ones that are considered underhood bling, at least there is some truth in that.:D

[HUMTECH]

Was talking in general about cold air intakes, not just an H-3 which I realize is cool air fed, just meant in general if your intake air is not cool air fed, modifying this can improve your air density. As for flow through the MAF sensor? Don't get what your saying. The maf sensor is A screen which the diameter is approx the same as the throttle body. No restriction there whatsoever.

[Viet Nam Vette]

I like the ones that are considered underhood bling, at least there is some truth in that.:D

http://www.geocities.com/daulquad/bling.jpg

:D

[Huck BB62]

Was talking in general about cold air intakes, not just an H-3 which I realize is cool air fed, just meant in general if your intake air is not cool air fed, modifying this can improve your air density. As for flow through the MAF sensor? Don't get what your saying. The maf sensor is A screen which the diameter is approx the same as the throttle body. No restriction there whatsoever.

My point on the MAF sensor is that it gets to stay the same size. I looked at my system this afternoon and can't find anything significantly smaller in diameter than the MAF. At 6000rpm, you MAY get some benefit from a smoother aftermarket, but you gotta go through that diameter of restriction, the MAF.

I'd like to hear from anyone that's dynoed their H3 with both stock and aftermarket intake system.

[raptorman53]

My point on the MAF sensor is that it gets to stay the same size. I looked at my system this afternoon and can't find anything significantly smaller in diameter than the MAF. At 6000rpm, you MAY get some benefit from a smoother aftermarket, but you gotta go through that diameter of restriction, the MAF.

I'd like to hear from anyone that's dynoed their H3 with both stock and aftermarket intake system.


Huck I understand what your saying about the MAF sensor. That being the diameter that the MAF is, it will only allow a certain volume of air. What we don't know is if the volume of air coming into the intake is the maximum volume the MAF sensor can allow.

[ChevyHighPerformance]

Don't loose sight of other sources of dirt in the engine. For those of you with the stock intake, stock filter, and stock exhaust - rub your finger around the inside of the tailpipe. That black soot came from the combustion and made its way past the cat in the exhaust manifold, past the main cat, past the resonator, and past the muffler. This is just what made it through all these barriers - think what got trappped. The size of the particles in this soot ranges the gambet in sizes. Some of this soot gets trapped in the oil, somes makes it past the oil filter, gets pumped through the bearings, etc.

Clean the tail pipe and drive through a tank of gas and see what soot came back. I'll bet that this is more dirt that gets past the K&N in that same amount of time.

There's junk in the fuel that gets past the fuel filter too.

[Xotik H3]

Don't loose sight of other sources of dirt in the engine. For those of you with the stock intake, stock filter, and stock exhaust - rub your finger around the inside of the tailpipe. That black soot came from the combustion and made its way past the cat in the exhaust manifold, past the main cat, past the resonator, and past the muffler. This is just what made it through all these barriers - think what got trappped. The size of the particles in this soot ranges the gambet in sizes. Some of this soot gets trapped in the oil, somes makes it past the oil filter, gets pumped through the bearings, etc.

Clean the tail pipe and drive through a tank of gas and see what soot came back. I'll bet that this is more dirt that gets past the K&N in that same amount of time.

There's junk in the fuel that gets past the fuel filter too.

That black soot is called exhaust. It has nothing to do with external dirt, that soot is Hydrocarbons as a by product of combustion. :twak:

[Huck BB62]

That black soot is called exhaust. It has nothing to do with external dirt, that soot is Hydrocarbons as a by product of combustion. :twak:

And most of the soot that DOES build up is when the engine's cold. The I-5 is a tight, well built, modern, fuel injected engine. The oil is not getting contaminated that much, nowhere near as much as a carbed engine of yesteryear. It heats up very quickly, and has a top notch computerized, closed loop fuel injection system. When it's operating temperatures are up to normal, it has very little blow by contaminating the oil. Even in that event, soot contaminates are nowhere equal to silica contaminates (dirt, very HARD dirt, second only to diamonds on the hardness scale)

[ChevyHighPerformance]

That black soot is called exhaust. It has nothing to do with external dirt, that soot is Hydrocarbons as a by product of combustion. :twak:
The point is that there are other sources of dirt in the engine - my first sentence.

What color is the oil when you change it? Where do you think this contamination comes from? Don't you think these suspended particles get pumped around the engine?

GM found that if you use company XXX's fuel you can go longer before oil changes because thier fuel burns cleaner and doens't contaminate the oil as much.

[ChevyHighPerformance]

And most of the soot that DOES build up is when the engine's cold. The I-5 is a tight, well built, modern, fuel injected engine. The oil is not getting contaminated that much, nowhere near as much as a carbed engine of yesteryear. It heats up very quickly, and has a top notch computerized, closed loop fuel injection system. When it's operating temperatures are up to normal, it has very little blow by contaminating the oil. Even in that event, soot contaminates are nowhere equal to silica contaminates (dirt, very HARD dirt, second only to diamonds on the hardness scale)

Blow-by is a different contamination. How about the dirt that comes from the fuel? I agree that silica is one of the worst contaminates.

[ChevyHighPerformance]

Exakry!

One other thing that people aren't considering with all their high dollar "less restrictive" systems: The MAF sensor is the same diameter.

All this talk means squat. Dyno sheets are the only thing that I believe and if you're only talking a few horsepower at the sake of dirt ingestion, well, that's a decision that people have to make.

The 06 H3 has an intake nozzle of about 1.8 inches ID which is the smallest diameter portion of the stock intake which gets eliminated with an aftermarket system like K&N, AEM, Volant,etc. The MAF ID is larger than 1.8 inches.

[ChevyHighPerformance]

for the past year thread after thread has talked about cold air intakes...

AND

for the past year I and others have told people the H-3 comes from the factory with cold air intake. Take a couple of minutes and trace it while looking under the hood. It feeds from (within) the right front fender, not from under the hood.

RYD

It's not true cold air but does not directly breath warm engine compartment air. On an 80 F day, measure the air inlet temperature (IAT) with an OBDII scanner after pulling out from a 1 minute red light and you see the IAT reach 105 F or so. While you are moving the IAT will cool down but will still be +10 F above outside air.

GM tries to breath from a fendewell, or duct air from outside on mostly all their vehicles.

If you have a dark color H3 like black, the fenderwell area will get a little warmer.

Aftermarket systems tend to breath in more warm engine compartment air. You have to analyze the impact of a higher volume of warmer air on the otto cycle PV cycle to see if you gain or lose.

I've modified mine to truly breath outside air. My IATs are about 2-3 F warmer than the outside air.

[Xotik H3]

I added the K&N filter kit. Very happy with the fit, no problems. I was concerned about the "noise" that people have reported on here. No noise at all, very pleased. Does it "feel" faster, cannot say for sure, did not have the stock airbox on long enough to tell a difference.

One thing that IS different, it IS more responsive to throttle movement. :beerchug:

[Huck BB62]

The 06 H3 has an intake nozzle of about 1.8 inches ID which is the smallest diameter portion of the stock intake which gets eliminated with an aftermarket system like K&N, AEM, Volant,etc. The MAF ID is larger than 1.8 inches.

Now you got me wanting to dissassemble the whole thing and measure stuff.

By the way, ever 10 degrees drop in engine IAT = about 1 percent increase in power output. The best vehicles to put a cold air intake on were the older vehicles that had the breather horns under the hood. I made a huge cold air intake for a Scout one time and it made a huge difference on the trail when crawling. Before the cold air intake, it got hotter and hotter, even though I had a big custom four core radiator.

How'd you modify your intake to make it a true cold air intake? On our Denali, the intake also takes from the fenderwell. The plastic and foam, believe it or not, did not even line up correctly. I took it all apart, carved out the metal with a die grinder to match the plastic's opening making it much larger. I picked up almost a 1mpg increase in fuel economy. Pretty good for free fixin's!

The exhaust system on the H3 looks pretty clean. I'm not fond of the squashed area under the floorboard but it looks pretty smooth. I've often wondered how well the exhaust ports meet up with the header and if they could be opened up. There's no doubt that some improvements could be made, but at what cost?