Increased MPG

[phantom2]

I know a lot of you guys are gadget freaks like me.I found this post in another forum and I thought you guys might find it interesting.http://www.sun-sentinel.com/video/?clipId=2466159&topVideoCatNo=null&c=&autoStart=true&activePane=info&LaunchPageAdTag=homepage&clipFormat=

[wpage]

Very Impressive MPG results!

[Mu-taint]

Just did a little math in my head. I may be wrong here but....

9.4 mpg to start
23.2 mpg after the test period
they said that was a 61% increase????

If it's all true wouldn't that be almost a 150% increase over 9.4mpg????
9.4mpg + 9.4mpg (100%) + 4.7mpg (50%) = 23.5mpg (150%)

Nice math Florida News Guy!:notallthere:

[6pack]

Pretty interesting. Anyone have any hands-on expereince with this thing?

[mln2963]

61% of 23.2 mpg = 14.152 mpg
14.152 mpg + 9.4 mpg = 23.552 mpg

Does that make sense?

[mln2963]

Here's another hydrogen system- http://www.thermo1.com/index.htm

[Mu-taint]

61% of 23.2 mpg = 14.152 mpg
14.152 mpg + 9.4 mpg = 23.552 mpg

Does that make sense?

Not really, by the Florida News Guy math above a 61% increase on 9.4 mpg would be:

9.4mpg x .61 = 5.734 + 9.4 = 15.13 mpg

[6pack]

I've read thru both websites. The hydro-4000 sounds like the better option, although more expensive. I don't see why you can't have a larger reservoir somewhere so you're not refilling the small container so much. There's no mention anywhere about durablility or maintenance. I'd like to see some long term testimonies. I've sent both companies an email requesting more info but I think I'm going to give this a shot.

My brother is a green freak and I talked with him about this. He's checked into it before but hasn't done it yet. He's excited to try though. He mentioned that the only issues he came across was a problem with the O2 sensors reading to much oxygen in the mix and the computer increasing the fuel.

Is there anyone else here that has any knowledge of the pros/cons of this?

[06-H3]

Must be popular, the website www.hydro4000.com is getting hammered right now. Gotta admit that watching that news story has me more than a little curious about it.

[moorec614]

It would have been incredibly easy for the dyno operator to run the system with a very heavy load the first time, resulting in a below average MPG, and then with a super light load (lower than would be experienced on the road) the second time, resulting in an above average MPG rating.

The news reporters would have been clueless, as could be the general public.

[PA-H3]

If you are going to do this. You have to disable the sensors in your CAT. Which is illegal. I talked to a guy who was installing them in vehicles and the computer dumps more fuel in when the sensors say that the engine is running so clean. Put a loop signal on your sensors hooked up to a toggle switch so that when you go into a shop for inspection you won't get fined. I don't know how or if you would get fined but when I told the shop owner this he scolded me and said that "that is illegal". I am trying to see if you can get an exempt sticker if you prove that your vehicle is running cleaner then stock. But I doubt that it will go anywhere. And for anyone really looking into this technology research Stanley Meyer and see what happened to him (Poisoned). His ideas can be found online and there is a shop online selling kits to make the "H" "H" "O" generators. if anybody figures out how to trick your computer into not dumpiing more fuel into the engine after hooking the device up. Post it!:popcorn:

[6pack]

What about having the pcm reprogrammed to account for it?

I'll read into the guy you mentioned.

In the conversation I had with my brother, he had mentioned that one of the 'tricks' was to wrap tin foil around the O2 sensors which helped increase their temperature, this in turn helped it read a lower oxygen content? He could not confirm this and said it was just what he heard.

I did not hear back from either company today...

[moorec614]

He mentioned that the only issues he came across was a problem with the O2 sensors reading to much oxygen in the mix and the computer increasing the fuel.

One of the simplest and cheapest solutions to the Check Engine Light's generated after removing a catalytic converter is to install to o2 sensor spacers, available from any auto parts store, before the o2 sensor itself, effectively pulling the sensor out of the stream. I wouldn't be surprised if this trick would work for this problem as well.

If you go through with this, please let us know how it works out.

[6pack]

Hey Moore, if you do the spacers that you suggest, does that fix the issue of the O2 sensors reading lots of oxygen and trying to increase the fuel?

I've spent the last 20 minutes or so searching for Stanley Meyer info. After sifting thru the government conspiracy crap, it seems he was more of a scam artist than inventor. He also was trying to run his vehicles purely on hydrogen (if I find more info later I'll post it, but that's all I have time for now). These systems talked about above are just adding hydrogen to the standard gas mix.

[wpage]

The spacer backs the sensor off and does weaken its reading of o2 which could reduce the demand for richer fuel. Which would negate any fuel savings.
The chevy colorado gmc canyon site has a picture on one of the home made header posts where he used a bored out part from advance auto to solve his check engine alarm...

There is another device that can be built to solve the sensor issue which involves wiring resistors and potentiometers (variable resistors) These parts can be sourced at any electronics parts store like radio shack. You wire it in line and can "dial in" your sensor results to the vehicle cpu.
This "black box" is on one of the hydrogen boost sites...

[4.8t]

why not just get hptuners and tune for it? you could turn off the bank 2 o2's for the cats and tune the fueling o2's for the afr you need. problem solved. when you go in for inspection you just load the stock tune, turn off the kit and your good to go.

[6pack]

That's what I was asking a few posts up. I take it you can adjust the tune for it then.

wpage, you lost me with the first part of your post. If the input of hydrogen/oxygen causes the O2 sensors to read lean, which in turn casues the pcm to increase fuel, wouldn't causing the sensor to read less oxygen make it not ask for more fuel? Which puts us back to the original situation of using less gas. I also don't like this type of bandaid fix. I would prefer to be able to tune for the increase. But if it works it works.

I heard back from the one company today, thermo1. They said they have no problem with the O2 sensors.

[4.8t]

i'm still trying to see how it works. it seems to me that it would be rasing the air fuel ratio. so basically leaning it out. which is bad for heavy loads. why not just tune it to a higher afr to start with if that the case. in hpt there is a tab called "lean cruise" it leans out the afr when at a steady cruise with a light load on the engine. but in america its illegal do to it raising the afr which raises emmissions. so if this is doing the same thing wouldn't it be illegal as far as emmisions is concerned? anyway in alstralia they use the lean cruise thats why we have it in our hptuners program. susposely it doesn't work in american cars even if you set all the setting for a stock holden car.

[4.8t]

ok figured it out. it doesn't raise the afr it would actually lower it. the hydrogen acts as a fuel and there for burns more of the oxygen so it will show rich on the o2's. due to the lack of oxygen. so it will actually pull fuel to raise the afr back up to 14.7:1.

[6pack]

Do you have a hydrogen setup?

[6pack]

Ebay seems to have dozens of people selling these kits in one form or another. It looks like a majority of them talk about the O2 sensor problem. Most recommend the spacer talked about above that will move the sensor further out of the exhaust flow. One of the guys talks about using the foil method that my brother mentioned to me. Still researching...

[4.8t]

i'm working with a guy to make one for his exterra (spelling). we'll see how it goes. if you have a wide band it should show rich appon intial introduction of the HHO, then the fuel trims should work to start leaning things out for you. if you have a scanner like hptuners like i have you could watch in real tim what th STFT (short term fuel trims) are doing then you would know for sure if it is working.

[6pack]

You're not in the mid-atlantic area, are you?

I don't have the HPTuner, have been thinking about getting it...

[4.8t]

no, i'm in maryland.

[6pack]

You're kidding. I live in south Carroll County and work in Howard. Where r u?

[4.8t]

pax river navy base. sorry so long to reply been in afghanistan. there is a group near here that is real big into this and has intruction for free to build your own setup. or you can buy his parts for $170 and build it yourself or buy a built unit for $240.

[wpage]

From what research is out there the trick to these Hydrogen generators is really to apply this fuel effectivly with a electronic device called a EFIE. For H3's what this does is signal correct the 02 sensors so they do not call for rich fuel mix to the ECN.
So if you were to install a hydroxy booster without a EFIE you would over time see no fuel savings once the 02 sensors have done thier corrections and called for a richer gasoline mix...

[6pack]

I got the Hydro 4000. It's sitting in my house now. I hope to play with it over the next couple of weekends. The manufacturer says there will be no problem with the O2 sensors. I'll find out. The others that I've talked to about it say to either wrap the sensors in foil or install the O2 spacer. I have both to try if I see any issues.

wpage, do you have any more info on this EFIE? I've never heard of it. I'll do some searching but if you have more knowledge, please share.

4.8t, pax river is about 1.5-2 hours from me. Maybe we can arrange a Saturday to get together and compare systems after we're up and running?

[wpage]

On these EFIE devices there is alot of discussion regarding how to best utilize them to trick the 02 sensors. You will need to find some info pertaining to the booster you bought.

From what is out there many users of these hydrogen boosters with these modern fuel injected engines with sensors that monitor oxygen. They see dramatic results initially. Then the 02 sensor reads high oxygen levels in the exhaust and calls for this rich mix.

This EFIE unit and there are kits you can build and others you can buy depending on how many sensors you have. (My 06 3.5 has 2) There are breakthrough units now that even connect to the mass air flow sensor MAF so you can tweak that as well to lean out your gas mix and utilize the hydroxy fuel efficiently...

Do a google search under EFIE and you will get plenty of hits to choose from.

[6pack]

When I looked earlier, I got a ton of hits. I'll check more into it later. I thought only one O2 sensor dealt with fuel. Don't I just need to mess with that one?

Just spent some time crawling around the H3 looking for mounting spots. Not as much room in there as I hoped. I need about 15" vertical by 5" diameter. I also need to have access to the top and bottom side of the unit (fill and drain caps). The best I can find is behind the passenger side headlight before the air filter. The stock filter is gone and I have the K&N FIPK, so there's enough room for the diameter but not enough vertical. I would need to cut the upper support that is holding the rubber hood support and the metal at the bottom of the air filter cavity. The rubber hood support would stay. Does anyone know if there is anything immediately under that upper metal fender well that the air filter sits on? Or how much room is between that and the plastic fender that you see from inside the wheel well? Or any other suggested mounting spots?

[wpage]

Anoher location for your booster and bubbler might be driver side in front of the fire wall...

The EFIE Depending on your engine and year go to George Wisemans site @ Eagle you only need to cover the 02 sensor b4 the catalytic converter.

If you have the knock sensor you may need another EFIE to correct that signal as well

Other wise your performance will be negated by the sensors doing thier jobs...

Good Luck

Keep us posted on your progress please.

[Casey]

There is so much bunk science on the internet on this stuff its not even funny.

Truths:

1) The basic technique for generating the hydrogen is electrolysis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen In actuality you are generating oxygen and hydrogen. Follow some of the links for the science behind it.

2) This gas is generated in a perfect stochimetric ratio - that is 2 hydrogen atoms for every one oxygen atom - the correct amount needed to burn. If this gas is injected past the mass air meter, you should need no additional air to burn the hydrogen injected.

3) You can make one of these yourself for less than $100 bucks with some pvc pipe and stainless steel plates, and heavy gauge wire. Just google hho generator

4) I've run the numbers, a system drawing 100 amps, which this system does not appear to, gives the equivalent btu content of 0.03 gallons of gas per hour. Unless there is some black magic going on in the combustion chamber, i'm not buying it.

5) I have yet to see anyone publish test results on any device of its kind like this that wasn't along the lines of we drove the the car without the system and got x mpg, then we drove it again and got y mpg. No long term statistical averages, no documentation of control parameters for testing, etc. Do you really think the durango gets 9 mpg without the system? One isolated test proves nothing.

[Casey]

My opinion on the EFIE is that 100% of the fuel economy gains are due to leaning out the engine. You can run up to about 16.0 AFR before power begins to drop from too lean a mixture.

Every single car off the production line could be setup this way, but the environmentalist hippies have stymied any hopes of this.

Lean mixtures promote higher combustion temps and higher nox emissions. Catalytic converters work best at 14.7 AFR ratios so the leaner mixtures are not compatible with exsiting emission control equipment.

When running in closed loop O2 control, the vehicle ECU will try to maintain 14.7 afr at the exhaust. I own and tweaked an eagle talon back in the day with a piggyback AFR controller. The main purpose was to lean the engine some at full throttle for power gains. However in closed loop mode, the ECU would continually trim the engine back to 14.7.

There was a guy in our group that leaned his car out far enough that the ECU trims maxed out and he was able to hold a lean burn for a considerable stretch of highway. Boosted his mpg from high 20's to high 30's over a couple of hundred miles.

Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean_burn

[6pack]

I'm in agreement with what you say. And I think the numbers on the Durango test are definately tweaked to make it look better. I got tired of reading and decided to do. I can't offer you the scientific tests but will let you know how things go.

[jersey]

Still alive? Did you do it? How good or bad did it work?

[6pack]

Still alive, not done yet though. I've been trying to find out more info about installing it, the physical part, not the connections. I'm hesitant to start cutting without more info on where I'm cutting into. I did find out that the makers of the hydro installed one on an H3 last month and I'm trying to get info from them on it. They are pretty bad about getting back to me though. :/

[jersey]

CA40g.com

22+mpg daily in my H3.

It ain't hydro, but it works well enough.

[guruerror]

Any update on this? Did the Hydro4000 work?