H3 vs. LR3 V6

[JeffW]

Anyone cross-shop LR3 V6 with H3? Both are similar size, have similar performance, and have similar offroad capability. The LR3 is only ~$6k over a base H3 Adventure with auto, but has some compelling advantages.

LR3 Advantages:
- Large windows, great visibility.
- Leather steering wheel
- Flat folding cargo area with 90 cu ft., as opposed ot 55
- 134 ft. stopping distance, as opposed to 149 ft. (even with 1000 extra lbs.)
- Much more storage places and bottle holders.
- Road manners (thanks to low profile tires and adjustable suspension).
- Smooth 6 sp. transmission, with sport mode and command shift.
- More visible turn signals (faster and yellow, safety issue).
- Bluetooth phone integration
- Speed sensitive steering
- Dual zone climate control
- No fake adornments, like hood vent or tire inflation (although that can be fixed on H3).
- Low key (I don’t like attention).

H3 Advantages:
- I think I prefer the cloth seats to the LR3 Duragrain material (fake leather).
- Slightly better turning circle of 37’ vs. 39’ ft. (both are better than what I’m used to, though).
- Reliability. Although the H3 is no Toyota, the LR3 has so much more stuff that can go wrong, and judging by the volume complaints in the LR3 forums, it does.
- Fog lamps (gotta move up to the V8 LR3 SE to get those).
- Non-adaptive transmission (adaptive = unpredictable, and never in the right style when you want it).
- Satellite radio and MP3 CD support.
- Regular gas (same mileage as LR3, but ~$450 cheaper per year).

LR3 seems to have an edge in the technical analysis, but something keeps drawing me back to the H3… an unquantifiable fun-to-drive factor, I guess. Anyone else feel that way?

Curious what others think about the H3 steering on the highway? Does it feel too light? How did you find the seat comfort of the H3 compared with the LR3?

My biggest concern is throttle response. I currently have an Audi Allroad, which I love in every way except that it takes off like a rocket… about 3 seconds after I press the gas. My wife’s Mazda3 is so much more fun to drive because it responds instantly, even though it’s only 148 hp. I don’t need rocket-like acceleration in my truck, but I do need responsiveness. Both seemed fairly responsive on my test drives, but I don’t think I drove enough to really tell. Some folks in the LR3 forums are complaining about this same kind of unresponsiveness. Has anyone noticed this with the H3, or does it always go when you press the gas, even on rolling stops?

Thanks,
-Jeff

[JeffW]

Anyone cross-shop LR3 V6 with H3? Both are similar size, have similar performance, and have similar offroad capability. The LR3 is only ~$6k over a base H3 Adventure with auto, but has some compelling advantages.

LR3 Advantages:
- Large windows, great visibility.
- Leather steering wheel
- Flat folding cargo area with 90 cu ft., as opposed ot 55
- 134 ft. stopping distance, as opposed to 149 ft. (even with 1000 extra lbs.)
- Much more storage places and bottle holders.
- Road manners (thanks to low profile tires and adjustable suspension).
- Smooth 6 sp. transmission, with sport mode and command shift.
- More visible turn signals (faster and yellow, safety issue).
- Bluetooth phone integration
- Speed sensitive steering
- Dual zone climate control
- No fake adornments, like hood vent or tire inflation (although that can be fixed on H3).
- Low key (I don’t like attention).

H3 Advantages:
- I think I prefer the cloth seats to the LR3 Duragrain material (fake leather).
- Slightly better turning circle of 37’ vs. 39’ ft. (both are better than what I’m used to, though).
- Reliability. Although the H3 is no Toyota, the LR3 has so much more stuff that can go wrong, and judging by the volume complaints in the LR3 forums, it does.
- Fog lamps (gotta move up to the V8 LR3 SE to get those).
- Non-adaptive transmission (adaptive = unpredictable, and never in the right style when you want it).
- Satellite radio and MP3 CD support.
- Regular gas (same mileage as LR3, but ~$450 cheaper per year).

LR3 seems to have an edge in the technical analysis, but something keeps drawing me back to the H3… an unquantifiable fun-to-drive factor, I guess. Anyone else feel that way?

Curious what others think about the H3 steering on the highway? Does it feel too light? How did you find the seat comfort of the H3 compared with the LR3?

My biggest concern is throttle response. I currently have an Audi Allroad, which I love in every way except that it takes off like a rocket… about 3 seconds after I press the gas. My wife’s Mazda3 is so much more fun to drive because it responds instantly, even though it’s only 148 hp. I don’t need rocket-like acceleration in my truck, but I do need responsiveness. Both seemed fairly responsive on my test drives, but I don’t think I drove enough to really tell. Some folks in the LR3 forums are complaining about this same kind of unresponsiveness. Has anyone noticed this with the H3, or does it always go when you press the gas, even on rolling stops?

Thanks,
-Jeff

[usetosellhummer]

All I could do is test both (very short term)
the big thing is service. The land rover network is not as big or easy to get parts or service. the beauty of the H3 as a GM product is the support and ease of getting parts, keys, and major work done. I sold many H2 to Land Rover folks becasue they got tired of the constant service issues with the LR. Passion from the Rover owners but service, enven warrenty work is tough on a Rover. I felt better in the LR3 but the truck like feel of the H3 appeales to me. The interior is sharp in the LR but seems a little complicated. LR lag seems minimal compared to the H3

[wannabeH3]

thats not the one with the supercharger is it? , looks like it gets the same crappy gas mileage, but i bet its definetly more of a road car.. i think the h3 was just meant to be offroad, like i think they put more emphasis on offroad capabilities then on road... i think those land rovers are pretty lux tho, however dont they have a lot of problems? personally im more of an H3 type of guy, i think those land rovers are a little girly.. and mine has no hesitation whatsoever... its just heavy and slow, but relaxing http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif i love it! plus its a hummer... definetly not your everyday vehicle.. i dont have a problem with visibility either but it took getting used to, now i am an ace.. and i love the choptop feel of it kinda retro 50's...
your worries about steering are just silly i think... that thing is so comfortable at any speed, and i have bounced it off the limiter, its rock solid and very comfortable and confidence inspiring.

[HummerNewbie]

To me is sounds like you want what the LR3 has and want someone to tell you to go that way. I would have to agree with wannabe that the LR3 looks more like a soccer mom vehicle and the H3 is about attitude. I like the LR3 but I was sold on the H3 for looks. Based on what everyone has said, the big turning factor for me would be the service issues. Granted the H3 may have some problems, but the service is there. Either way, to great choices.

[Ipedog]

Its up to you which one to get. Bear in mind that you will end up spending ALL your spare time at the LR service desk...

And, IMHO, the LR3 has the exterior looks of a refrigerator. There's nothing there... It just IS. The H3 has presence.

Oh, and I'm not a LR hater at all. I was dead set on getting a Disco until I tried to get into and out of the back seat. I drive my dad about alot. He has two bad hips and that back seat was just a non-starter http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif.

[Surferjo]

Truck Trend did a 4x4 shoot out and the LR3 beat out the H3 by a hair.

http://trucktrend.com/toc/163_0510_cover_pl.jpg

[Steve - SanJose]

Jeff - sounds like a fun decision that you are trying to make.

After 3 months with my H3 here are some of my observations related to your questions:

-H3 windows and high beltline are cool and have minimal impact on visibility, you don't feel like you are driving in a fish bowl, feels sporty instead.
-H3 high and small back window does make backing up difficult. Depend on the large side mirrors and use caution.
-H3 steering ratio, heft, feel, precision and highway tracking is very good (my other cars are Porsche Boxster S and Jag X-type for comparison).
-H3 road manners are surprisingly good, quiet, smooth ride, reasonably flat cornering
-H3 interior space is only so-so (resulting from chop-top styling, relatively compact body, etc.)
-H3 cargo space is only so-so with back seat up
-H3 Front seat comfort is very good, rear seat comfort is only fair-to-good (and really only for 2)
-H3 fake hood vent is lame
-H3 throttle response is fair, torque band is broad, horsepower is a bit light (although the LR3 V6 horsepower to weight ratio must be even worse). How did the V6 LR3 feel? LR3 must weigh well over 5000 lbs.
-H3 is mechanically simpler than the LR3 and it's proving to be very reliable and well-built so far for me at 6000 miles.

My wife and I prefer the H3 over the LR3, even though I have access to Z-plan pricing on Land Rovers/Fords/Jags because my father is retired Ford exployee.


Just my 2 cents, hope it helps a little.
Steve
H3/white/lux pkg/chrome pkg/chrome wheels/sunroof/XM/side steps/mudflaps/locking chrome gas cover, etc.

[JeffW]

Yeah, but that Truck Trend Challenge was with the V8 LR3. The H3 got dinged for lack of power and manual tranny in the hill climb. With the auto tranny and stabilitrak, it might have made it. And then with the V6, the LR3 doesn't have the power advantage anymore. The LR3 also got dinged for a slow-reacting locking diff. So if it was the auto H3 vs. an LR3 V6, the H3 may have won the challenge. All in all, I think their off-road capability is too close to tip the scales one way or another.

[JeffW]

Steve,

Greatly appreciate your feedback (along with everyone else's).

I think I would install one of those visor mounted rear-view cameras for either the H3 or the LR3, to solve the rear visibility problem. Glad to hear visibility elsewhere is minimally impacted.

The LR3 is actually 5700 lbs. - 1000 lbs. heavier than the H3, but the mileage and 0-60 times are the same. LR3 actually clocks in a little faster at 10.5 s. Very surprising. I think it might be due to the greater torque and the 6-spd gearing.

I also get a discount through Ford (X-plan), which makes it all the more difficult.

-Jeff

[4churchill]

LKand rovers + service nightmares!!!!


I say go HUMMER all the way!!

[Adventurer]

I've never driven an LR3, but I do know that Land Rover routinely ranks dead last among all auto manufacturers in customer satisfaction. Horrible reliability. That's sad, considering that LRs are excellent off-road machines. If you buy one, expect to have it in the shop often.

[XM DUDE]

I really think the LR3 looks good, but more crap to go wrong and it needs preinum fuel! 2 main reasions to take the H3, less bling more usefulness.

[XM DUDE]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Adventurer:
I've never driven an LR3, but I do know that Land Rover routinely ranks dead last among all auto manufacturers in customer satisfaction. Horrible reliability. That's sad, considering that LRs are excellent off-road machines. If you buy one, expect to have it in the shop often. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
They give new meaning to the term "off road" as it will be in the shop so much, but they look really good on a flat bed tow truck!

[Kid Shyleen]

I had a Land Rover Disco II, BMW Edition, which I think is a lot more vehicle than the Ford edition that now exists. As far as satisfaction, I loved the truck! Service...a...yeah, 3 radiators, O2 sensor, rear seal. The LR3 should be a more reliable, but Ford really screwed up the heritage in the new design. No working sun roofs, only one compartment in the rear, cheap buttons, less features, higher price. And, yes, that article rated the H3 just behind the LR3 due to power, but the LR3 they used had a V8. The H3 kicked butt in all other catagories.

48 Hours 'till delivery...and counting...

[Hummer3]

I have had Land Rovers. They are nice when everything works. High insurance rates and repairs are two reasons why I now own an H3.

[XM DUDE]

in other words CHA CHING$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[kacyk]

I owned a 2000 Discovery for about 8 months and finally sold it at a HUGE loss due to reliability issues. In that 8 month period it was in the shop no less than 15 times (no kidding) for electrical issues, mechanical issues, etc. I bought it used but it was still under factory warranty (thank God!).

Go to http://www.carpoint.com and read the owner reviews. All Land Rovers have issues. I have to admit the car was cool but come on! I have an employee with a 2002 Range Rover. He also has the same issues and get's a loaner once a month.

Also, a 30K service ran me $1,300.00! The 30K service on our first H2 ran only $750 at the dealership even!

Land Rovers will also get you when you go to sell them. They are like Jaguars when it comes to resale.

[XM DUDE]

Yes Rovers are a very classy looking pile of crap.

[wannabeH3]

if the lr3 was the supercharged one i would be all over that.... hey for the price of a fully loaded H3 you can get a lotus elise too so think about that!

[XM DUDE]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wannabeH3:
if the lr3 was the supercharged one i would be all over that.... hey for the price of a fully loaded H3 you can get a lotus elise too so think about that! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yah but think of the repair bills!, no thanks.

[evomind]

i have a lotus elise...awesome, very fun car.
and the engine and drivetrain are toyota, so the maint. costs/repair bills arent that bad..

[evomind]

a little size comparo..

[evomind]

oops...heres the pic

[XM DUDE]

Damm it looks like a go cart!

[oneworld]

Looked and drove LR when it first came out > before I looked at the H3 or even knew about the H3. At that time could not get a lease for under $650.00 per month, and it seemed to wierd inside, nicey appointed but funky controls and just a little over the top. One of my customers has since got one > she is a mom, she told me that she was disapointed with the fit and finish, she has had a lot of small problems, with the power windows, and some other things that she has had to take it back to the dealer for several times for each thing. She saw my H3 about a month ago > I gave her a ride (in the H3) and she thought it was made better then her LR3 > quality wise. That was her opinion. Oh her glove box door latch broke and she was driving to Baltimore, and she was pissed that she had to isten to the door bang aroung the hole trip.

[Mr. I - Man]

Nice lotus, My MR-2 Spyder had the same engine w/some mods and it was pretty fast. I can't image how well the Elise does with the same powertrain, but weighing less.

[SledgeHummer]

Allow me guys to make small contribution here, in September 2004 ( a year ago), I was invited by Land Rover for a preview Test Drive in Wick -Scotland. I spent 3 days with the LR3 driving it on roads, mud, water, sand...etc.

Videos can be seen on my site here : http://www.uae4x4.com/vids/lr3.htm

For those of you who posted saying they owned a Disco, the LR3 is NOTHING like the Discovery, COMPLETELY redesigned from scratch. The LR3 is more like a Range Rover with Offroad capabilities rather than a new Disco.

Onroad, the LR3 drives like a Range Rover, very smooth. but lacks power in a way.

In terms of offroad, as an Offroader I found the LR3 to be very controversial. It has very good offroad capabilities....BUT, and a biiiiig but. it's just tooooo full of electronics.

I asked the LR Engineers, everything was great and nice gadgets and all, but being electronic, how reliable are they ? even the engineers could not answer, they're hoping for the best, I dont blame them, the vehicle is very new and needs to be tested.

The vehicle is designed in a very foolproof manner, there is no high and LO (well there is but presented in a different way) there's a knob in the center console that says " Sand, Mud, Rocks...etc" you turn the knob to the desired type of terrain, and the engine, T-case, suspension adjusts itself accordingly.

When I say Engine, yes this knob actually controls engine speed as well, which I found to be very stupid. when I was driving on the main road, one engineer was riding with me, I told him it lacks power, he said, turn the knob to "sand" I did and it gave me more power, hehehe, who on earth would think of that ???

I prefer the more conventional H3. at least I AM in control, not the electronics.

SledgeHummer

[XM DUDE]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The vehicle is designed in a very foolproof manner, there is no high and LO (well there is but presented in a different way) there's a knob in the center console that says " Sand, Mud, Rocks...etc" you turn the knob to the desired type of terrain, and the engine, T-case, suspension adjusts itself accordingly </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The vehicle is designed in a very foolproof manner, there is no high and LO (well there is but presented in a different way) there's a knob in the center console that says " Sand, Mud, Rocks...etc" you turn the knob to the desired type of terrain, and the engine, T-case, suspension adjusts itself accordingly
I agree that has to be the dumbest set up I ever heard of.

[kacyk]

A real useful wheeling option my Disco had was Descent Control. I got to test it out on the sand dune area of Moses Lake, WA and it was cool crawling down terrain in a sloth-like manner.

But then, I guess that's why the manual tranny option on the H3.

[signals34]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by evomind a little size comparo.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hey Evomind....that Lotis is a beauty...I always wanted to look into them...how is the handling???

[XM DUDE]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kacyk:
A real useful wheeling option my Disco had was Descent Control. I got to test it out on the sand dune area of Moses Lake, WA and it was cool crawling down terrain in a sloth-like manner.

But then, I guess that's why the manual tranny option on the H3. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I see too many things to go wrong with the LR3 with alll the electronics, making it a potential nightmare down the road.

[SledgeHummer]

Kacyk : the HDC (Hill Descent Control) on the Land Rover is not such an ingenious invention. It's another foolproof way of doing things (no offense). I can do that on my 2000 Blazer. what the HDC does is, it places the t-case in LO, and gearbox in 1st gear and activates (and controls) the vehicl's ABS brakes.

So if you're an experienced offroader you can do that yourself, I do it all the time when needed on the Blazer. I put the t-case on 4LO, the auto-transmission ghear on 1st and baaarely touch the brakes as and when required which activates the ABS sensors. and you go down sloooowly. just like HDC.

The difference with HDC, is that it's self driving in a way, it allows you to STEP OUT of the vehicle and walk alongside the vehicle while steering it from the outside through the window while its sliding down at 5 km/h. LR had this option as a failsafe technique in case the vehicle rolls over. of course it has to roll over to the right side to be effective, if it rolls over to its left it will crush you http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif heheheh

XM DUDE : the Brits have a weird way of coming up with solution to very simple problems, have you heard of ACE ? before the LR3 I tested the Land Rover Discovery 2003 (last model before the LR3). every car has body roll specially 4x4s, on the Disco 2003 they installed a system called ACE (Active Cornering Enhancement) and another system called SLS (Sefl Levelling Suspoension. Basically during hard cornering, a lateral suspension pushes the leaning body tip upwards to level the vehicle. I have tested it at high speeds it's VERY effective, but the negative side is, it's tooooo heavy in components for such a small problem. If you add a multi-level adjestment suspension like the one from Rancho or Fabtech with cockpit adjustment control...voila, you dont need all that heavy metal gear.....weird.

Attached piture shows the ACE system components.

SledgeHummer
http://www.uae4x4.com/images/suv/testdrive/disco/disco-18.JPG

[DWPC]

Point One: We looked at the LR3. Unless you find a dealer willing to do a factory order and you're willing to wait several months, you're not likely to find a LR3 for less than low $40's (MSRP). They only import 'em with lots of accessories, even the 'basic' V6. (at least at the SoCA LR dealers we visited.)

Point Two: Land Rovers are a cult object. The build quality is abyssmal British and maintenance is expensive. For some goofy reason LR Owners don't seem to mind an expensive vehicle that breaks down a lot. I'd be afraid to get out of sight of a paved road in a LR3. At least the old 4-banger LRs could be fixed on nthe trail with a hammer and crescent wrench and whatever you couldn't fix you could disconnect and limp out. The Disco and LR3 need a team of mechanics and electronics techs following behind. The LR3 forum on Edmunds is one bitch session after another.

Point Three: In the recent Truck Trends 4X4 comparison, the only stated reason the LR3 beat out the H3 for 1st Place was high speed capability though the LR (V8) cost $53K vs. H3's $33K (thats 60% more!). The LR3 will do 130. Hey TT..it was an offroad contest. The H3 did better or as well in every contest (and the H3's manual trans was the deciding factor in the grade climb that the auto LR3 did better in.). I think TT really blew it by ignoring a HUGE price differential; (underscored by their phoney tilted pic indicating an LR3 could climb a 100% grade.) If they'd used a V6 LR3, or an H3 with automatic the H3 would have trounced it...still with a 30% price advantage. You can almost buy two base H3's for the price of the LR3 tested in the comparison.

We just returned from a 2000 mile trip around N. Arizona in the H3 (write up & pics coming)and I was amazed how comfortable it was on the highway and astonished at how capable it was right out of the showroom on some pretty rough trails. (BTW, we passed a struggling Disco on one rocky rise.)

In lots of serious mountain driving, I found the steering to be very precise and had a very good feel; no mush. Further, the H3 exhibited no appreciable roll in corners. I thought 500 miles at a stretch in the H3 would be fatigueing, but I hate to admit it was no worse and maybe less so than my beloved Audi A6 2.7T. If it had quiet highway tires (though the 33" Duellers aren't noisy for an A/T) it would be as quiet as the Audi too. Very comfortable seats (cloth). Surprisingly low wind noise.

The H3, however, will frustrate you if you like to put your foot in it. Its fine at 75 on the level, but believe me, theres NOTHING left for grades or headwinds. Driving the long long grade up from Palm Springs CA in a stiff headwind at 60-65 at 3500 RPM in 3rd gear watching Hyundais fly by at 80 was pretty frustrating, but the overall great cruising and offroad performance more than made up for it. Cruising at over 70 sucks gas up pretty good too. That 5-banger is a hog under high load.

I think GM hit a home run with the H3. Add some reserve power for highway driving and it'll be a grand slam.