Exhaust Gasket leak and stud broke

[Tully]

Wondering if someone could give me some advice. I took my truck to the dealership for an oil change and to inspect a noise that sounded like a belt was about to go. The diagnosis was $2500 in repairs for "Drivers Side Exhaust Gasket Has a leak. And the Stud is Broken, recommed replacing the exhaust gaskets on both sides"

The truck has 110k miles on it, and while it runs fine, it seems that EVERYTIME I take it to the dealer it's a $1000 adventure. I'm about fed up, I've had the truck since it was new and I LOVE LOVE LOVE the truck, but it's starting to wear on me. Whether I try to find an '09 or just move on, remains to be said, but I'd rather fix it, but not at this rate and continued cost...

So am I getting screwed by the dealer? Seems others have had this issue in other threads, although I don't see such high price tags...??

Thanks.
-Tully

[Olfart]

Don't have a price because the work was done under warranty, but a couple years ago my 2004 had 2 broken ex man bolts...1 rh and 1 lh and they had to pull the head in order to get to one of the broken bolts. Of course this meant new gaskets too. It was in the shop for almost a week for this and a power steering pump. So 2500 may not be too far off for a stealership shop where the labor is probably over $100/hr. Broken man bolts seem to be a common problem on older H2's. Don't know what year you have, but with 110k it might be time to bite the bullet and fix it if you plan to keep the truck. If you buy another truck you might end up having the same problem somewhere down the line. Maybe yo can find a local mechanic who could do it cheaper than a dealer

[Easy Ed]

I replaced all of mine (both sides) and it is not really bad job, just takes some time and some "grin and bare it" too when parts are in the way of getting another part removed. Examples, had to remove a O2 sensor to get to a manifold to exhaust pipe nut removed. Then I had to un-hook front drive shaft to get to another manifold to pipe nut loose. Just a bunch of small things to make the day go by before ya know it :giggling:

I had all kinds of 1/2" extensions, rachets, sockets, knuckles, vise grips and so on and was able to get it done in a afternoon and evening and not had a problem since, the new manifold bolts are of a different design and should last longer, larger head and a bigger radius under the head causing less of a fracture point.

Part way down this page you can see all the parts http://www.elcovaforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38098

Oh yeah, $2500.00 is too much in my book :o

Ed

[snmazer]

sometimes, not always, when I start up my 03, I get a loud hissing sound from under the hood. Sometimes it lasts a half a second, sometimes 10 seconds. Happens in spring, summer, fall,...but never in winter!
Does this sound similiar to what you experienced with the broken header bolts? I cant pin point what the problem is.

Scott

[mbdougl]

Get a price a a reputable repair shop. I got a price on replacing the faulty mirrors on my 04 and they wanted $1800, even the service guy said I would be better off getting them off ebay. I checked with a local body shop and they said they would put them on for $100. Dealers are really only good for warranty work!

[H2Much]

Agreed. I had one of those worthless exhaust manfold bolts break off in my engine head, had to have the head pulled. Even after that, the mechanic broke every drill bit known to man trying to drill it out so had to send it to special place to have them torch the bolt out. Had to have new aluminum added to the head and have the hole rethreaded, freaking nightmare. All that, plus replacing the gaskets... $1000. Now, with this being said, you just need to find a decent mechanic, end of story. With what you paid for what you got, you might as well had the dealership bend you over and welcome you to prison.

I found me a mechanic, been doing everything on my ride for the last 5 years, including the repair I mentioned above. Once you build that rapport and trust with someone, they are less likely to take you for a ride and are more likely to take care of your Hum like it was their own. Just my experience...

[Tully]

sometimes, not always, when I start up my 03, I get a loud hissing sound from under the hood. Sometimes it lasts a half a second, sometimes 10 seconds. Happens in spring, summer, fall,...but never in winter!
Does this sound similiar to what you experienced with the broken header bolts? I cant pin point what the problem is.

Scott

No, it sounds more like a flapping (or ticking) sound when I accelerate, although does stop after driving the vehicle for a bit...which led me to believe it was a belt or something? (which obviously i was wrong)

[Tully]

Thanks for all the replies. I am taking it to a local service station today to see what they think. I haven't been dissatisfied with the dealer up to this point, I'm used to them 'overpricing' and typically do my homework on the parts and service and then negotiate them down (which they've been flexible with - assuming the bad economy has helped my position)....new recent impression is that they are in even worse shape, this time around there was no wait to get an apointment and I walked into a newly renovated shop that looked like a ghost town.

I think things were more 'down to earth' when they were also a Hummer dealer, now that they are just Caddy again, I think their heads are in the clouds.

Thanks for the information, I'll assume it should be somewhere between a $500 and $1000 job and see what the guy tells me today. Those kind of numbers I can live with....

[fllaw1]

I replaced all of mine (both sides) and it is not really bad job, just takes some time and some "grin and bare it" too when parts are in the way of getting another part removed. Examples, had to remove a O2 sensor to get to a manifold to exhaust pipe nut removed. Then I had to un-hook front drive shaft to get to another manifold to pipe nut loose. Just a bunch of small things to make the day go by before ya know it :giggling:

I had all kinds of 1/2" extensions, rachets, sockets, knuckles, vise grips and so on and was able to get it done in a afternoon and evening and not had a problem since, the new manifold bolts are of a different design and should last longer, larger head and a bigger radius under the head causing less of a fracture point.

Part way down this page you can see all the parts http://www.elcovaforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38098

Oh yeah, $2500.00 is too much in my book :o

Ed
ED, I am thinking of doing the same thing you did and replace everything to my 03 it has 23k miles on it and the bolts look a little rusty from the exterior. What do you recommend to remove them with out breaking them off, I was thinking of hosing them down with Penetrating oil before I do it.

[Easy Ed]

Except for the broken ones, mine came loose without adding anything to them. The broken ones came out using a pair of vise grips. If you want to play it safe go ahead with the penetrating oil on the 12 manifold to head bolts and to the 6 manifold to pipe nuts.

The part number for the bolt is 11518860 and the stealership got me for $1.76 each in 2009 ($21.12 for the 12 of them). For gaskets, I bought them at NAPA and they were, FPG MS92467 for the manifold to head gaskets, the set of 2 was $13.29, FPG 61323 for the manifold to pipe gaskets they were $5.49 each.

Good luck, Ed

P.S. 23,000 miles, :eek: :eek: mine is at around 90,000 now.

ED, I am thinking of doing the same thing you did and replace everything to my 03 it has 23k miles on it and the bolts look a little rusty from the exterior. What do you recommend to remove them with out breaking them off, I was thinking of hosing them down with Penetrating oil before I do it.

[HMH2SUT]

I have the same issue myself now. 2005 with 125k... I have 2 broken bolts on the drivers side. Found one bolt head in my driveway, stressed and corroded off...
hopefully i will get a chance to fix it this week I will take pics of the process and post them.

Thanks for the part numbers Easy ED

[HMH2SUT]

a few pics of the manifold with bolt heads missing...

http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx352/HMH2SUT/IMG_20110531_165215.jpg

http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx352/HMH2SUT/IMG_20110531_165233.jpg


passenger side, is this crack common? like a casting weak point?

http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx352/HMH2SUT/IMG_20110531_165527.jpg

[Easy Ed]

That crack is made that way, can see it in pic below, upper manifold.

Also, If I remember correctly, the oil dipstick has to come out to get the passenger side manifold off :o . One bolt holds the dipstick bracket to the engine block and it the goes into the engine block with a o-ring for sealing. The manifold won't go over the bracket that I could find, like I said earlier, just a bunch of grin and bare it moments to get the manifolds off. (May be because of the heat shield, I do not remember, been a while since I did the work ;) )

Here is a link to my HUMMER page at Photobucket so you can see some of the "parts" and what I removed to get the manifolds out.
http://s639.photobucket.com/albums/uu112/esheri/HUMMER%20H2/ Plus other things I have there for reference or for questions that have been asked before.

HMH2SUT, You are welcome on the part numbers ;)

Good luck, Ed

http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu112/esheri/HUMMER%20H2/ExhaustLeak022.jpg

[HMH2SUT]

Decided to start the job now instead of putting it off, realized I had 3 broken bolts on the drivers side so no time to waste... got the driver side manifold off pretty easily. 2 of the broken bolts I can grab with vise grips but of course 1 is broken off inside the head, this coulda been a nice easy job!

Any tips on extracting the bolt from the head?

http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx352/HMH2SUT/IMG_20110531_190758.jpg


http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx352/HMH2SUT/IMG_20110531_191859.jpg

http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx352/HMH2SUT/IMG_20110531_190752.jpg

[AndyMac]

The part number for the bolt is 11518860 and the stealership got me for $1.76 each in 2009 ($21.12 for the 12 of them).

Wow, they want to gouge me 10 bucks a pop for the bolts up here in the great white north. Think I may have to run state side for the bolts!

[Easy Ed]

Oh Sh!t, that is going to be a problem sorry to say.

Got to use a SMALL right angle drill with a 3/16" drill bit, run it at SLOW speed (bolts are prone to heat treat if you get them hot, hotter than when the motor is running, then you would need a carbide drill bit to cut it), use oil for cutting fluid and once you get through the bolt use a GOOD bolt extractor (not made in China) and hope it comes out, you don't want to know what you will have to do if that don't work.........

One other possible way to try and get it out and this is only if you have a welder and are good at using it, Hold a hex nut over the hole/bolt and go inside the nut and build weld up between the nut and bolt, melt the two together, let cool and hope you can put a socket on the nut and all backs out.

Good luck, Ed

[HMH2SUT]

Easy ed- Its nice to know im not crazy, my first thought was to use a welder but thought that might be over kill...
After going thru my tools I realized I didnt have an extractor or easy out in the size needed. So I tryed the welding method. Everything went as planned on the driver side. The 2 bolts with exposed threads I just slide a 3/8 nuts over and tacked them on. They would have came out with vise grips but this was much easier.
The third bolt was broken just below the surface of the Head. I placed a "fender" washer with a hole just smaller then the bolt hole to contain the weld to the bolt only and not the head. I welded the washer on then a nut and backed everything out...

passenger side is another story... 2 more bolts broke as soon as I tryed to turn them. Tryed the welding method but they are to far below the surface.
looks like I will be buying some new tools tomorrow..

Parts...
Every local parts store had the gaskets, only one could get the bolts but woulda took 3 days. so picked them up from the stealership for $2.50 a piece.

http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx352/HMH2SUT/IMG_20110601_154650.jpg

http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx352/HMH2SUT/IMG_20110601_154504.jpg

http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx352/HMH2SUT/IMG_20110601_154739.jpg

http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx352/HMH2SUT/IMG_20110601_162728.jpg

http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx352/HMH2SUT/IMG_20110601_154720.jpg

[johndjmix1]

Why not replace the bolts with stainless steel to avoid corrosion?

--John

[Garry]

Tully - I just did this repair on my 2004 H2 for about $40 and 3 hours.
What you need to do is buy the gaskets & bolts. This is definately a two person job but it can be done. What you need to do about two days before you do it is to spray the bolts and the broken bolt with PB Blaster or Liquid Wrench and let it soak in WELL.

Then remove all the bolts that you can with a socket - I broke off two additional ones when doing mine. After that you can side off the manifold
after you pull the spark plug wires - just side it off a few inches so that you can get a set of vice grips around that bolt stubs.

This is where the second person comes in - the guy on top provides the tork on the vice grips and the the person on the bottom is the eyes becuase you cannot see then while looking down into the motor. Once the vice grips are locked onto the stub they will eventually work free. This is where the three hours comes into play.

After you get them off just drop on the new gasket and bolt everything back together.

I have to do my passenger's side next becuase I have one that just broke off on that side too and I am not looking forward to it.

Good luck bro - been there done that.

Forgot to mention - use Class 90 bolts and you'll never replace them again. Here is the link for them at Fastenal - I had them bring them in for me. The OE ones are crap.

http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=11115929&ucst=t

[cashville]

I also have this problem. I have a broken bolt, so today I took all my bolts off, drivers side, and they all came out ok. I have the manifold off to the side a little, which lets me use some vise grips on the broken one, but I couldn't get it off. I was using a small pair of vise grips, I will buy a big one tomorrow, and try again :crying:

[OrangeCrush]

I replaced all of mine (both sides) and it is not really bad job, just takes some time and some "grin and bare it" too when parts are in the way of getting another part removed. Examples, had to remove a O2 sensor to get to a manifold to exhaust pipe nut removed. Then I had to un-hook front drive shaft to get to another manifold to pipe nut loose. Just a bunch of small things to make the day go by before ya know it :giggling:

I had all kinds of 1/2" extensions, rachets, sockets, knuckles, vise grips and so on and was able to get it done in a afternoon and evening and not had a problem since, the new manifold bolts are of a different design and should last longer, larger head and a bigger radius under the head causing less of a fracture point.

Part way down this page you can see all the parts http://www.elcovaforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38098

Oh yeah, $2500.00 is too much in my book :o

Ed


I?m with Ed on this one... I?ve had to replace the studs on both my H2?s because they broke. Because they break off and usually leave some of the stud sticking out once the manifold is removed, it?s not a problem removing them.

They?d have to be pretty fukked up to pay 2500 to have them repaired by the dealer.


Mark

[cashville]

Did you use anything else besides the vise grips to remove the broken bolts?
The only thing I used was some WD40 like on 3 different days, about a week ago, I put some of it on the broken stud in order to try and have it loosen a bit...

[OrangeCrush]

Did you use anything else besides the vise grips to remove the broken bolts?
The only thing I used was some WD40 like on 3 different days, about a week ago, I put some of it on the broken stud in order to try and have it loosen a bit...


I actually used a stud remover (looks like a socket with teeth on the inside that tighten up on the stud as you turn it counterclockwise)

If you remove the manifold (you don?t always have to) it makes it easier.

If I remember correctly, they sell updated bolts/studs.

Mark

[cashville]

I checked it out, and it looks like a great tool to easily remove broken studs.
If I can't take it out tomorrow with a bigger vise grips, I'll have to order one of those...

[OrangeCrush]

I checked it out, and it looks like a great tool to easily remove broken studs.
If I can't take it out tomorrow with a bigger vise grips, I'll have to order one of those...


One suggestion... if the stud is iffy right now, don?t put a bigger set of vise grips on it.

I say that because typically if you can?t get a good hold on it, you?ll end up smoothing off the threads and then make it harder to use the stud remover.

One more trick...


If there is enough stud sticking out (which apparently there is cause you?re getting a pair of vise grips on it) get a nut that will slide over the end of the broken stud. Get someone to weld the inside of the nut to the stud and then just use a socket to get the stud out.

Just a few suggestions...


Mark

[cashville]

I've tried the bigger vise grips, but it didn't move...

I will have to try the stud remover. the thred is a little smooth now because I tried yesterday a lot of times, do you think the stud remover will work anyways?

[cashville]

btw, the one you used is identical to this right?

http://www.pipelinesupply.com/images/Proto_4520_Stud_Remover.jpg



Regards

[cashville]

I'm just going to have someone weld a nut to the bolt tomorrow... I think it will be easier that way.
tomorrow I'll post news, I hope I finally solve this problem, it's driving me mad :notallthere:

[OrangeCrush]

btw, the one you used is identical to this right?

http://www.pipelinesupply.com/images/Proto_4520_Stud_Remover.jpg



Regards


No, the one I use is like this...

http://www.frontiernet.net/~jray77/04F250/ExhMani/StudRemover-03.JPG

Much slimmer, easier on...




Mark

[cashville]

Ok, I was able to take the broken bolt out with a pair of vise grips.
After that I put the new studs, and I re-used the same gasket because the only ones I could find for sale that would ship to my country were Felpro, and I heard a lot of mixed feedback, so I just re-used the gaskets.

I tightened all the bolts a first pass to 11lbs, and a second to 18lbs, like in the manual.

I noticed that where the broken bolt was, with the new bolt tightened to 18lbs, the header was still not even making contact with the manifold, so I had to tighten it really hard to get it to make contact. (It probably stayed a lot of time with the bolt broken, so it got bent out of shape)
Then, I connected the spark plug wires, and turned on the engine, but the noise is still there, A LOT more quieter now, but it's still leaking air, I can hear it.

Now, I don't know what I should do, if I should tighten all the bolts a little bit more, especially the one where the broken one was, or maybe it can be a leak from the gasket, although I don't think so.


What do you think, should I tighten the bolts a little bit more tomorrow?

[Easy Ed]

I had to double checked the torque specs and you do have them correct but while looking at the manual it did say not to use the old gaskets. I am afraid it may be the gasket that is the problem now :(

I would hate to see you tighten the bolts more than the 18 foot pounds and either strip out the threads in the head or break another head of a bolt off.

The call is yours and I know it is not cheap to get the gaskets sent to Portugal but I would get the new ones and do it right and hope for the best ;)

Good luck, Ed

[cashville]

At least the last bolt will have to be tightened at more than 18lbs, because like I said, at 18lbs, there was still a gap between the header and the manifold on that one... The only bolt I have overtightened now, is that last one, that is on the place of the broken one... Maybe if I tighten that one a little bit more, it will stop making the sound, I don't know:(

I'm thinking like that because, if there was a gap at 18lbs, then maybe I haven't fully closed it at the torque I have on it right now, maybe a little more would close it good.
I'm afraid that it will brake with time, but if I don't overtighten that bolt, then I have a big gap that lets all the air out...

[Easy Ed]

The bolt should handle the extra torque because of the grade it is, guess it is worth a try.

Edit: max torque dry looks to be 24 to 27 foot pounds for a 8 mm 10.9 grade.

Good luck, Ed

[cashville]

I'm not even sure at how much torque the last bolt is, because it's the only bolt with bad access, and my torque wrench wouldn't fit in that place. After the others I could get a feeling of the 18lbs, and put it around that, and I did but it was not enough to close the gap. After that I tightened it a lot, because a lot was needed for the header to go back into place with no gaps.

What I'm thinking of doing tomorrow, is do a leak test and spray some wd40 around the manifold (will start with the place where the broken bolt was), and see if I get a different engine idle, just to detect the leak and make sure it's really coming from that place.

[cashville]

I couldn't wait till tomorrow, so I tightened the last bolt as much as I could, and turned on the engine. the noise was still there, so that didn't help. I then sprayed wd40, and noticed bubbling coming from the gasket at that last bolt. I turned off the engine, and unscrewed the last bolt a little, to not leave it there overtightened.
So, I guess I'm investing in a Felpro gasket. Lol.

[cashville]

btw, I didn't put anything on the used gasket, I just took it out, and put it on again. Should I have used a sealant or something?

[OrangeCrush]

Be careful over tightening those bolts. You tighten them too much and you pull the studs clean out of that head. (aluminum)

Just a suggestion.

Mark

[OrangeCrush]

Btw, DO NOT REUSE THE GASKETS!!!


Mark

[Indy]

I personally would not over tighten the bolt. If it snaps off, you are where you started. Use a high temp copper sealant on both sides of the gasket to make sure the seal is tight. Good luck.

[NJ H2]

No, the one I use is like this...

http://www.frontiernet.net/~jray77/04F250/ExhMani/StudRemover-03.JPG

Much slimmer, easier on...

Mark

How does one aquire 1 of these Stud removers?

[OrangeCrush]

99% of my tools are bought from the Snap On or Mac truck when they come to my shop... Once in a while if it?s a tool that I?ll only use once or twice, I?ll go to like a Northern Tool if you have one.

Or do a search...

Rocky Mountain ATV (http://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/productDetail.do;jsessionid=2591CE60EB9B68CE3F58DB F3C247BF87?webCatId=22&webTypeId=140&navTitle=Tools/Shop&navType=type&prodFamilyId=29458&stockId=732090&ref=gmc)

Pelican Parts (http://pelicanparts.com/catalog/ShopCart/TOOL/POR_TOOL_CAT056_pg4.htm)

Torque Stick (http://www.torquestick.com/cart/4PC-1-2-DRIVE-STUD-EXTRACTOR-SOCKETS-SET-METRIC.html)


Mark

[cashville]

How does one aquire 1 of these Stud removers?


Although I already took mine out, I purchased one stud remover from ebay, in case I need it in the future:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-MATCO-3-8-DR-1-4-STUD-REMOVER-SR102-/250713094121?_trksid=p5197.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D4%26po%3D LVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D4447725993305940048

[cashville]

I already have a seller who is going to send me exhaust gaskets at a good price. The gaskets is all I need, or do I need some kind of sealant or something like that to put on the gasket prior to putting them in place?

[OrangeCrush]

I already have a seller who is going to send me exhaust gaskets at a good price. The gaskets is all I need, or do I need some kind of sealant or something like that to put on the gasket prior to putting them in place?


Depending on the brand you use, will determine whether you use sealant or not.

The copper ones, the ones with the built in rings, blah, blah, blah don't use gaskets. The old style (which I prefer) are made out of a paper/cotton sort of soft material and generally are able to be doubled up if necc and/or add sealant.

Mark

[cashville]

I bought a FelPro, should I use anything on it?

[cashville]

I bought a FelPro, should I use anything on it?


bump

[jrs2005]

Dorman makes clamps that allow a fix without manifold removal. Good quick fix , and cheap. google dorman part 917-107.

[jrs2005]

Had the broken back driver side bolt. Did this today, remove the heat shield on the lower firewall. 3 10mm nuts, then tape a length of wire to the back of the dorman part so you can control it from above. Then you can start the top bolt. Use a swivel socket and long 3/8ths extension from below, its tough but you can get the bottom bolt that way. Red loctite the last bolt and tighten. If your gasket is intact you will have no more ticking leak. Not simple but better than pulling the manifold or head. My bolt was broken off beyond the edge of the head. Not much room to go after it. This clamp thingy works well. Hope this helps .