wiring question

[JohnnyRPM]

I'm wiring up some off road lights...I've got everything straight with regards to the schematics, relays, etc...

However, I've got 4 55w lights. The wiring kit they came with had 4 individual positive wires running to the two relays. My question is...to minimize the number of wires running from the roof into the cabin, and out the firewall, can I double up on them? Meaning, can I splice each pair of lights into a single, heavier guage positive wire to run to the relays? The lights came with 20 gauge wire...can I splice them on the roof and run a single say 18 or 16 gauge wire per pair of lights? Just want to make sure it's okay before I go ahead and find the unsulation melts off them or something because I've overloaded the wire.

-John

[JohnnyRPM]

I'm wiring up some off road lights...I've got everything straight with regards to the schematics, relays, etc...

However, I've got 4 55w lights. The wiring kit they came with had 4 individual positive wires running to the two relays. My question is...to minimize the number of wires running from the roof into the cabin, and out the firewall, can I double up on them? Meaning, can I splice each pair of lights into a single, heavier guage positive wire to run to the relays? The lights came with 20 gauge wire...can I splice them on the roof and run a single say 18 or 16 gauge wire per pair of lights? Just want to make sure it's okay before I go ahead and find the unsulation melts off them or something because I've overloaded the wire.

-John

[JohnnyRPM]

I'm wiring up some off road lights...I've got everything straight with regards to the schematics, relays, etc...

However, I've got 4 55w lights. The wiring kit they came with had 4 individual positive wires running to the two relays. My question is...to minimize the number of wires running from the roof into the cabin, and out the firewall, can I double up on them? Meaning, can I splice each pair of lights into a single, heavier guage positive wire to run to the relays? The lights came with 20 gauge wire...can I splice them on the roof and run a single say 18 or 16 gauge wire per pair of lights? Just want to make sure it's okay before I go ahead and find the unsulation melts off them or something because I've overloaded the wire.

-John

[PARAGON]

<TABLE width="75%" border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD>Electrons flow around the individual strands of wire, not thru them, so the more strands of wire there are the better it will pass current. A good 4 gauge wire may have 1000 or more strands.



</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<H2>Wire Gauge Chart </H2>
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=2 border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD bgColor=#d8d8d8>Params </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#d8d8d8>1-4 Ft. </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#d8d8d8>4-7 Ft. </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#d8d8d8>7-10 Ft. </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#d8d8d8>10-13 Ft.</TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#d8d8d8>13-16 Ft. </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#d8d8d8>16-19 Ft. </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#d8d8d8>19-22 Ft. </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#d8d8d8>100 Watts </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>12 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>12 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>12 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>10 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>10 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>8 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>8 </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#d8d8d8>200 Watts </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>12 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>10 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>8 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>8 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>6 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>6 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>6 </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#d8d8d8>300 Watts </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>10 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>8 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>8 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>6 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8><ENTER>6 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>4 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>4 </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#d8d8d8>400 Watts </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>8 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>8 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>6 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>6 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>4 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>4 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>4 </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#d8d8d8>500 Watts </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>6 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>6 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>4 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>4 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>2 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>2 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>2 </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#d8d8d8>600 Watts </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>6 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>6 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>4 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>2 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>2 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>2 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>2 </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#d8d8d8>700 Watts </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>4 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>4 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>4 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>2 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>0 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>0 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>0 </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#d8d8d8>800 Watts </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>4 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>4 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>4 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>2 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>0 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>0 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>0 </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#d8d8d8>900 Watts </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>2 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>2 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>2 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>0 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>0 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8><FONT colo?#000000?>0 </FONT></TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>0 </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#d8d8d8>1000 Watts </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>2 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>2 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>2 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>0 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>0 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>0 </TD>
<TD align=middle bgColor=#e8e8e8>0 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Klaus]

Here's some good info on lighting and voltage drop.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>In many cases, the thin factory wires are inadequate even for the stock headlamp equipment. Headlamp bulb light output is severely compromised with decreased voltage. For example, normal engine-running voltage in a "12-volt" automotive electrical system is around 13.5 volts. At approximately this voltage, halogen headlamp bulbs achieve 100 percent of their design luminous output. When operating voltage drops to 95 percent (12.825v), headlamp bulbs produce only 83 percent of their rated light output. When voltage drops to 90 percent (12.15v), bulb output is only 67 percent of what it should be. And when voltage drops to 85 percent (11.475v), bulb output is a paltry 53 percent of normal! [Source: Hella KG Hueck AG, Germany].

http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/relays/relays.html
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[ChuckE]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Electrons flow around the individual strands of wire, not thru them, so the more strands of wire there are the better it will pass current. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Where the heck did you learn that? That is only true in radio frequencies and higher.
For DC, and low frequency AC, the cross section of the wire carries the current, not the surface.
That is why you will see buss bar used in high current applications, such as HUGE battery charging stations.
(Thinking back on the charging stations used in the coal mines, when I was a kid back in that area of the country, that charged up the coal miners battery packs.)

There is a grain of truth in what you just spouted off "as fact" but it is a fallacy for circuits handling current UNDER radio frequency.
As the frequency of the current increases into the megahertz the rise and fall of the resulting fields tends to force the current carrying electrons toward the surface of the conductor, referred to as "skin effect". But not with DC current.

This skin effect is the sort of thing that the makers of those "super cables" for high quality, expensive audio/speaker setups like to stress. But the truth of the matter is that, at audio frequencies, the skin effect is negligible. At radio frequencies, and we are talking megahertz here, because of the skin effect, wave guide (hollow tube) is used in many circuits.

Exotic audio outfitters also like to push that super "oxygen free wire" with the theory that with no oxygen to cause impurities in the copper, it is lower resistance. However not only is it negligible in audio circuits, and in time there will be oxygen introduced to the wire, anyway. So, forget about that, unless you can keep the wire immersed in a non-oxygen environment (unlikely, since all plastics used in wire insulator construction will, in time, permeate oxygen). The best thing that these fancy cables do is drain your wallet of excess money.

Another point about a bundle of stranded wire, used at high radio frequencies, is that the skin effect still acts upon the bundle as if it were solid.

The only thing that stranded wire has over solid wire, of the same cross-sectional diameter, is that stranded wire is easier to bend and thus handle in tight spaces. Also in any flexing environment you just can't use solid wire, since it will stress at the flex points, increasing resistance, increasing heat, inviting failure and/or fire.

Back to the question about what JohnnyRPM can safely use for his four 55 watt lamps. That is (4x55) 220 watts, which at 12 volts (being conservative) is 18 amps. Consumer's Union (CU) recommendations for enclosed wiring (bundled, not in the free air) is that 12 guage wire can be used safely (12ga @23amps, 14ga @17amps, or 10ga @33amps).

So, Johnny use <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>two runs of 14ga for flexiblity, or <LI>one run of 12ga for cheapness, or <LI>two runs of 12ga for safety and the expandability factor, OR <LI>one run of 10ga for ease of installation.[/list]
See the "ampacity" charts at http://xtronics.com/reference/wire_gauge-ampacity.htm

For some very specific wire and frequency details go to http://www.epanorama.net/documents/wiring/wire_resistance.html

[JohnnyRPM]

I love this message board. Thanks to all three of you I now have an idea of what I need to get the job done safely without burning my hummer to the ground, and what I would need to do the job right to avoid voltage drop.

Thanks guys,

-John

[Dan]

ChuckE is right, most metals have electrons that can detach from the atom which are called free electrons. Its those free electrons ability to jump from one atom to the next that make electricity pass through the conductor.

Yay, I remember something from college! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.giovani.org/giovaniloreto.it/bacheca/emo/cheers-off.gif

[PARAGON]

While I am no scholar and have no formal practical study or application of specific potential energy and it's theories, you are a cheeseball for the way you addressed my post. I simply posted a chart that provided answers to the original question without giving any personal "opinions."

I copied the info from this page: http://www.gti-vr6.net/library/electrical/wiregauge2.html

Maybe you should get your nose out of the electrical encyclopedia and learn a little tact.

[Dan]

He could have got away with what I wrote. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[KenP]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Posted by ChuckE:
you just spouted off "as fact" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I kindof got lost after that.

That was nice of you to try and help, Paragon. BTW, I think that is a nice avatar, but I can't tell what the bottom says.

[PARAGON]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KenP:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Posted by ChuckE:
you just spouted off "as fact" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I kindof got lost after that.

That was nice of you to try and help, Paragon. BTW, I think that is a nice avatar, but I can't tell what the bottom says. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It says "ALPHA" it's the logo for the new ALPHA versions of, next year, the H1, and hopefully soon thereafter the H2.

A H2 Alpha might have the Duramax in it with a beefier front end as Alpha will be the performance versions of Hummers. I don't know how long I'll keep the new avatar but just showing some small support for GM to produce the Alpha version of the H2.

AND, I'll try to be less helpful in the future.

[Dan]

I like the avatar too, it would look nice on an H2!

Nah, go ahead and continue to post info. Most people here find it helpful. Like Ken, I got bored after the first sentence or 2 of Chuckie's post. Too much info can be bad.

[JohnnyRPM]

Well I found BOTH posts useful and since I'm the one asking that's all that matters http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[ChuckE]

Paragon, Paragon, Paragon,
You are telling me about using tact!
Is this the same guy whose idea of replying is a string of cheap grins! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ?
or calling another person an idiot who “spread(s) more lies and stupidity” or calling people knuckle-draggers, or uses curse words in his postings.
You’ve mentioned in some postings that you are “well versed in some very inane topics” and that you are among the few that takes it personal when someone “is otherwise flippant to the members here” and yet you have no problem in being flippant yourself. You say that this board is “all in fun” and yet you rain down on fun.

I am not offended by anything you have said, I even find information and humor in most of your postings, but one thing I don’t see coming from you is tact.

Your reference to http://www.gti-vr6.net/library/electrical/wiregauge2.html is just a board of Volkswagen GTI VR6 user/owners. Hardly the paragon (pun intended) of electrical knowledge. There are some other interesting pages there too, such as the “How to disable the "La Cucaracha" seat belt warning buzzer” (really).

In my reply I never called you a name, I never used a curse word, I only asked where you got your information. I used the word “heck” as in “Where the heck did you learn that?” And for that one fun question you want to call me a “cheeseball” What’s the matter don’t you like having to account for yourself?
Oh, oh, oh, yes, I also used the word “spouted” as in the information being given by you as being factual.
That was terrible of me there, wasn’t it? That you could dig up information on the internet, that I can’t find anywhere else, and you pass on as a table of “factual information”
The internet is full of pages of non-factual “facts” It really all depends upon who you want to believe.
For electrical information you can believe some Volkswagen owners or some electrical engineers. You make the choice.

In my reply I gave details of where I got my information. I realize that many or you readers out there might not like too many words, since you lose interest after the first sentence or two (are you still reading?), or if there are no pictures, so I then separated the information and highlighted where the person requesting the information can skip right to my recommendations. Sure, Dan, I could have said something as simple as free electrons are carriers of electrical current (or an engineer might bring up the theory of holes carrying the current… yada yada yada) but what sense would be made of that? I gave actual recommendations of using particular sizes of wires for a choice of situations. Something useful.

The information was located by JohnnyRPM, so evidently he was able to locate it.
As for you others, and we are still having fun here, aren’t we? see if you can locate my “column of caring” (see finger extended on end of hand). But that’s all in fun.

[PARAGON]

Ok

[Kevin B]

Chuck, you are a knuckle dragger (non hyphenated). Where did you get your information, what school did you attend and most of all who would hire such a cheeseball as yourself.

I read both of your "postings" and I must say *cough* *cough* WHAT A LOAD! Skin effect being negligible? Are you deaf? Hellen Keller could hear the difference!

As for stranded wire vs. solid, come on you can't be serious http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.

Now for the "Hole" theory, how long ago did you go to school? Ever heard of "springs"?

The only useful thing I got out of your post was finding a way to disable the "La Cucaracha" buzzer in my sister-in-laws Jetta.

Oh BTW do you get to wear one of those cool striped denim engineers hats http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

[Dan]

scroll
scroll
scroll


Anyone know what he said?

Looks like a buncha cut & pastes.... http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[ChuckE]

OK, now we're talking!

Glad to meet cha.

Oh, and N2, in language you can understand, "10-4 good buddy"

[KenP]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Originally posted by Dan the Man:
Anyone know what he said? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why, because of this stuff?<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> In my reply I never called you a name, I never used a curse word, I only asked where you got your information. I used the word “heck” as in “Where the heck did you learn that?” And for that one fun question you want to call me a “cheeseball” What’s the matter don’t you like having to account for yourself?
Oh, oh, oh, yes, I also used the word “spouted” as in the information being given by you as being factual.
That was terrible of me there, wasn’t it? That you could dig up information on the internet, that I can’t find anywhere else, and you pass on as a table of “factual information”
The internet is full of pages of non-factual “facts” It really all depends upon who you want to believe.
For electrical information you can believe some Volkswagen owners or some electrical engineers. You make the choice. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I just knuckle dragged it over here because it looked funny and reminded me of Popeye. I guess I should read it. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[DRTYFN]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ChuckE:
Paragon, Paragon, Paragon,
You are...BLAH BLAH BLAH....



BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH... But that’s all in fun. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jesus ChuckE, are you related to John Kerry? That book of BLAH BLAH you wrote was quite the exercise in long winded fluff. I bet you like to hear yourself talk, don't ya?

[ChuckE]

Drtyfn, I have been wondering how long before you chirped in.
It took longer than I thought, but I knew you would. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Kevin B]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Oh, and N2, in language you can understand, "10-4 good buddy"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you, because I had no idea what you were trying to say http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.

And now in language that should be familiar to you:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"faaaaa-laaaaa faaaaa-laaaaa" but instead a "fa-la fa-la fa-la"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

or

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"fa-la fa-la fa-la"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
what a doof, and yes were having fun.

[DRTYFN]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ChuckE:
Drtyfn, I have been wondering how long before you chirped in.
It took longer than I thought, but I knew you would. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"I knew you would...blah blah blah." http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Looks like we've got a Nostrildomas here.

Have your neighbors stopped calling you dickhead yet?

[ChuckE]

DRTYFN, you wouldn't be trying to spell Nostradamus are you?

If so, then in Century 6, Quatrain 17 you are mentioned, and your avatar confirms it,
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> After the files the ass-drivers burned,
They will be obliged to change diverse garbs <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Meaning:
DRTYFN sets himself on fire and then puts on women's clothes.

[TBarrow]

So the Readers Digest version would be 12 ga. will work fine. Whew I thought it was one of my sales consultants explaining the deal they wrote.