Hummer Forums by Elcova

Hummer Forums by Elcova (http://www.elcovaforums.com/forums/index.php)

- General Off Topic (http://www.elcovaforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=11)

- - Ann Coulter (http://www.elcovaforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30403)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarineHawk

Right. I think "perfected" here just means better off or believing in the truest form of God. Forgetting who, if anyone, is right (we might find out when we die), most religious Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Moonies, Buddhists, Taoists, Zoroastrianists, Mowahidoons, and American Injuns all think they have a perfected view of spirituality. Coulter just came out and said it, but it's not that shocking to me.
I know most, especially orthodox, Jews think that they have a superior view of God over that of Christians and others, and thus are superior to them in a spiritual sense. It certainly would not/should not bother me if they come out and say it. You really can't have religious tolerance at all if everyone is required to believe that they're no better off than the followers of other religions in order to fit in with the PC culture.

:twak: No, Judaism is a religion of tolerance. We do not say that we have the way or the only way, just a way that works for us. You will not find a Jew who says that what we believe is right and what others believe is wrong. Neither will you find a Jew who says that any non-Jew is destined for eternal damnation. Also, there is no desire by Jews to proselytize, we are not trying to get anyone who believes differently to become Jewish. It is, in fact, probably more difficult to convert to Judaism than any other rligion. Formally, the process takes seven years with tests all alng the way.
Of course, Coulter's statement is not shocking to me either. She is a joke. She is the intellectual equivalent of Howard Stern to the Republican party.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tower

You will not find a Jew who says that what we believe is right and what others believe is wrong.

...

Quote:

Originally Posted by tower

It is, in fact, probably more difficult to convert to Judaism than any other rligion. Formally, the process takes seven years with tests all alng the way.

Maybe, but those two statements seem somewhat contradictory. If the Jews don't think they have the best answers, why do non-Jews have to take seven years of tests to get in?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tower

You will not find a Jew who says that what we believe is right and what others believe is wrong.

I might have oversimplified or overstated my point, but there must be at least a few Jews who think they are superior, e.g.:

Quote:

Originally Posted by God and some of the chosen people

In Judaism, chosenness is the belief that the Jews are a chosen people: chosen to be in a covenant with God. This idea is first found in the Torah (five books of Moses) and is elaborated on in later books of the Hebrew Bible. … According to the Torah, Israel's character as the chosen people is unconditional as it says in Deuteronomy 14:2, "For you are a holy people to YHWH your God, and God has chosen you to be his treasured people from all the nations that are on the face of the earth.

Although the Torah also says, "Now therefore, if you will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then you shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people," God promises that He will never exchange the Jewish people with any other. … The blessing for reading the Torah reads "Praised are you, Lord our God, King of the universe, who has chosen us out of all the nations and bestowed upon us his Torah." …

Rabbi Norman Lamm, a leader of Modern Orthodox Judaism writes:

The chosenness of Israel relates exclusively to its spiritual vocation embodied in the Torah; the doctrine, indeed, was announced at Sinai. Whenever it is mentioned in our liturgy - such as the blessing immediately preceding the Shema....it is always related to Torah or Mitzvot (commandments). This spiritual vocation consists of two complementary functions, described as "Goy Kadosh," that of a holy nation, and "Mamlekhet Kohanim," that of a kingdom of priests. The first term denotes the development of communal separateness or differences in order to achieve a collective self-transcendence.... The second term implies the obligation of this brotherhood of the spiritual elite toward the rest of mankind; priesthood is defined by the prophets as fundamentally a teaching vocation.

Numerous Haredi Jews hold a differing point of view. Based on teachings in the Kuzari, Zohar, and Tanya they hold that Jews have spiritual advantages over non-Jews. This view of Lamm has been said to be accepted by the mainstream Haredi community
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_as_a_chosen_people

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarineHawk

...

Maybe, but those two statements seem somewhat contradictory. If the Jews don't think they have the best answers, why do non-Jews have to take seven years of tests to get in?

There is a lot of History, Culture and Tradition to take in. The process seems to weed out those who are considering conversion capriciously.

[b]

Quote:

Originally Posted by From that same article, you omitted:

"Ultra-Orthodox"

Heredi Jews dislike the term ultra-Orthodox, which is sometimes used by non-Jews or non-religious Jews, because it suggests that they are extremists or outside the boundaries of reasonable orthodox Judaism. They prefer to regard themselves as traditional.

So you have chosen to cite a sect that is outside of mainstream Judaism to make your point about Jews in general. Curious. :confused::confused::confused:

Quote:

Originally Posted by tower

[b] So you have chosen to cite a sect that is outside of mainstream Judaism to make your point about Jews in general. Curious. :confused::confused::confused:

You said I would "not find a Jew." I found some.

Come on, you have to admit:

(1) The Christians think the New Testament preempts the Old Testament; Christ is the Savior; and the Koran is crap.

(2) The Jews think the Old Testament is the final testament; the New Testament is bunk; the Koran is real BS; and Christ was a decent guy, but no son of God.

(3) The Muslims think the Old Testament is okay; Jesus was allright; but Muhammad and the Koran are the real deal; and you have to die while killing a non-Muslim to get some real good pu$$y in heaven.

(4) The Hindus think that the cow in the peasant farm down the road is their great uncle.

(5) And they ALL think they are more right than the other guys.

Can you really disagree with that? Do most religious Jews really not think they have a better view of spirituality than the Christians? Or than Muslims? Do they not think they have a better view of spirituality than the Scientologists? No? Really? I have a lot of Jewish friends. I'll ask them. Do all or most Jews really believe that the Christians, Muslims, or Scientologists very likely have a better view of God and spirituality than the Jews do? Really? And even though the Jews are so unconfident that they have the better views on anything (never noticed that), they make non-Jews take seven years of tests to learn their way of thinking before the non-Jews can become one? Not buying it.

If the Jews thought that Judaism was no better or no truer to the God that made them the "chosen people" than is Christianity, Islam, or Koreshianism, why would they both even bother with it? Come on, they must think they are a little more accurate in their beliefs about God than the Rastafarians. No? I've seen plenty of Jews make fun of the whackier evangelists. I do too. The Jews I know are pretty confident that they have a superior view to those guys. And I think that if they didn't think they had a superior view to even mainstream Christianity or Islam, they'd probably go to church or a mosque instead of a synagogue. They must think they're right about something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarineHawk

You sound as if you've taken a theology class...or two.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tower

There is a lot of History, Culture and Tradition to take in. The process seems to weed out those who are considering conversion capriciously.

Well, I have to admit- I have considered Judiaism based wholly on the 8 presents, dredels and extra holidays more than a few times.:D

Quote:

Originally Posted by [LEFT

MarineHawk[/left]]You said I would "not find a Jew." I found some. Okay, you found some. You got me there. You found some wacko Jews.

Come on, you have to admit:

(1) The Christians think the New Testament preempts the Old Testament; Christ is the Savior; and the Koran is crap.

(2) The Jews think the Old Testament is the final testament; the New Testament is bunk; the Koran is real BS; and Christ was a decent guy, but no son of God. Agreed, mostly, anyway.

(3) The Muslims think the Old Testament is okay; Jesus was

allright

; but Muhammad and the Koran are the real deal; and you have to die while killing a non-Muslim to get some real good

$$y in heaven. :giggling:

(4) The Hindus think that the cow in the peasant farm down the road is their great uncle. :giggling:

(5) And they ALL think they are more right than the other guys.

Can you really disagree with that? Yes, and I do. Do most religious Jews really not think they have a better view of spirituality than the Christians? I reiterate, we have a path that works better for us. DO you really think that after suffering the worst discrimination in the history of man (genocide) that you will find a preponderance of Jews who are even slightly interested in discriminating against others for their beliefs? Or than Muslims? Do they not think they have a better view of spirituality than the

Scientologists

? No? Really? I have a lot of Jewish friends. I'll ask them. Do all or most Jews really believe that the Christians, Muslims, or

Scientologists

very likely have a better view of God and spirituality than the Jews do? Really? And even though the Jews are so

unconfident

that they have the better views on anything (never noticed that), they make non-Jews take seven years of tests to learn their way of thinking before the non-Jews can become one? Just because we hold our views as precious, this does not mean we belittle or devalue other views. We don't consider spiritual perspective a competition where there are first, second and third place winners and so on. We are not trying to prove our beliefs are better than anyone else's views are for them. Only for ourselves. Not buying it. You don't need to.

If the Jews thought that Judaism was no better or no truer to the God that made them the "chosen people" than is Christianity, Islam, or

Koreshianism

, why would they both even bother with it? It works for us. I hope you find or have found something that works so well for you. Come on, they must think they are a little more accurate in their beliefs about God than the

Rastafarians

. No? I've seen plenty of Jews make fun of the

whackier

evangelists. I do too. The Jews I know are pretty confident that they have a superior view to those guys. And I think that if they didn't think they had a superior view to even mainstream Christianity or Islam, they'd probably go to church or a mosque instead of a synagogue. They must think they're right about something.

And of course, you are free to think all of those things. Please forgive me if I don't agree with your point of view or your logic in drawing your conclusions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tower

DO you really think that after suffering the worst discrimination in the history of man (genocide) that you will find a preponderance of Jews who are even slightly interested in discriminating against others for their beliefs?

No. But I really don't think Ann Coulter (aside from any flaws she might have) was really discriminating or seeking to discriminate either (at least insofar as I think you are using the term "discriminate"; it basically means drawing a distinction--and I assume the Jews at least draw distinctions between their beliefs and other religions). Maybe Jews don't think they have the best religion. I'd just find that somewhat odd for any religious group. I think it's fair for Red Sox fans to think their team is better than others and odd for Christians, Jews, or whoever, not to think they're on the best team.

Gotcha. And I will certainly cop to being odd. :iagree: :beerchug: