Re: Attn: gun experts
 

Don't forget our friends at Taser. They have the cool 'energy' weapons, and you can legally carry some of them. They're probably very expensive however.
http://www.taser.com/index.asp

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

It was clear the first time and you didn't change things. How do you know the person pointing the gun doesn't subscribe to the same principles that was iterated to you above about pointing a gun at someone that you don't intend to kill.

Why take the chance? Again, if you are not comfortable in pulling and using a handgun in that situation, you do not need to seek it's use as personal protection. You are simply looking for additional trouble that you don't want. That is the one time in your life you would most assuredly want that protection, yet you state you wouldn't make use of it. Someone is pointing a gun at you, you can't assume they are NOT going to shoot you. THAT'S asking to get shot.

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

CC is just asking for trouble, and is more likely to escalate the issue then anything else. That is all. :cool:

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

Are you an obvious target? I'm sure you do not drive in the Hummer, right? Are you going in at night with your signage and tattoo's ablazing? You have survived being held at gun point several times but having a gun in those situations would have guaranteed you getting killed, IMHO (unless you have a background in close quarter combat, NOT playing around @ the shooting range, but actually shooting at living/breathing people who want to kill you). IMHO, it is irresponsible for me and others to give you advice on what would be the best gun to have in your pocket when the coroner goes over your dead body. My own advice is if you consider those situations so intrinsic in your livelihood (for civilians, I can only come up with a couple of scenarios e.g. bounty hunter and body guard) then become proficient in close quarter combat by studying with a reputable professional rather than just shopping around for firearm (is your life really worth a one time purchase of $300-$500 or a lifetime of careful and diligent study of the martial arts). Most Ninjutsu practitioners, for example, are given wide berth in otherwise hostile territories based on just the aura they project. And that's just $0.02 worth of advice. Good luck.

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

Do you mind if I quote you for a Deep Thinker's Hall of Fame nomination?

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

I will gladly endorse this request. :) :)

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

I agree with Para on this and his previous comments. If the guy is about to shoot you you anyway, acting quickly, drawing, and firing a shot or more into his mid section, will give you a very good chance of survival - approximately infinitely better than just sitting there and taking the hit.

If he's hesitant and unsure what to do himself - even more so. The vast majority of armed criminal IMO are cowards. If you act decisively, calmly, quickly, and intellligently in deploying your weapon, you should come out on top more than 90% of the time.

One illustration that draws on what Para was saying is that more than 85% of rounds fired in police shootouts (I think this is correct; I can't recall the specific numbers - someone help me if you know) miss their target. Keep in mind that (again I think this is correct) more than 80% of those shootouts occur at a distance of less than 10 feet!

Thus the victor isn't usually or necessarily the best marksman, the fastest one, or even the one who gets the head start - it's most often the one who is determined to respond and does so as calmly and proficiently as possible. As part of that training formal or otherwise at hitting moving targets quickly and thinking about what you will do in a given situation ahead of time is critical. If you act decisively and don't freak out, you'll win most of the time even if the other guy has the drop on you. As a concealed carrier, you have the element of surprise, and they don't know what you're going to do or when you're going to do it. in some sense, it's an advantage if you act effectively.

I might disagree with the others about the pocket issue. I have a small auto in my pocket often when I woulnd't have anything if I had to have a holster. If it's hot and I'm wearing shorts and a shirt tucked in, I'm not going to wear a jacket or untuck my shirt so that I can carry. I just put my thin holstered .380 in my pocket. (Note, as I said earlier, I'd put my Glock or H&K in a holster or quick opening camera case or something if I was expecting to walk around East St. Louis or Detroit or something)
One advantage to the pocket approach is that if someone is walking near you, and you sense a possible threat but really don't know, but don't want to reach for a holstered weapon, just stick your hand in your pocket. At that point, drawing and firing takes about 0.3 seconds.

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

I think this would scare anyone: Just walk around with a particle accelerator on your back, and aim it at anything that moves...

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

I agree if you don't pay them off every month. If you carry the balance the interest rates will eat you up.

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

IMHO, it is irresponsible for me and others to advise someone to not arm himself when the coroner goes over his dead body because he was in a fight without a weapon. Of course, he needs to be trained. Read the Armed Citizen feature in the American Rifleman. It's regulalry filled with stories of people who saved their lives by deploying a firearm against people who were threatening them annd/or their families. I've noticed that many of them are 80 year old women. certainly, most of them aren't Navy Seals or otherwise have a "background in close quarter combat."

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

That reminds me of a theory that's related and unrelated.

In combat, on the streets, etc. When an extreme situation occurs, your mind body falls back on "instinct." Many/most times the individual does not have much or any good memory of exact details of what transpired even though their actions were very deliberate and proper. It's always stated as he had the proper training, muscle memory, etc.

So, a while back it hit me about driving. You hear talk about people driving and talking on their cell phones, or talking to the person in the passenger seat and then not really having a memory of how they got to where they were going, but it was deliberate and they got there. Then, on occasion there are instances where some idiot can't walk and chew gum at the same time and shouldn't try to drive and talk at the same time, right? Well if the aforementioned is true, then those that are on the phone and run red lights, speed, drive erratically, etc. have simply been training themselves to drive that way for when they get on the phone. If they would drive responsibly during normal times, they would drive safely while their abilities are taxed.

Just a theory.:D

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

I would suggest one of these. You can stick a full-sized in there (especially since you are a small-penised Hummer owner;) ) and it still not print. As long as you don't have an old style 1911 or something that snags bad, it is pretty smooth to pull from.

It's perfect for something like the sk or even a G23.

http://www.smartcarry.com/scbrochure.pdf

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

It helps that I wear my pants like this:

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

Note: NO sarcasm in this post whatsoever - Just real questions.

Scenario - thug with a gun 6' away pointing between my eyes. If I have a gun in my pocket I should try to pull it?

I would think my chances would be better if I cooperated. Atleast until I felt I had an oppourtunity to pull when and IF the situation allowed it.

For me it would depend on what he wanted. If he wanted my wallet, he can have it. I would never take someones life to protect my property.

On the other hand if I thought he simply wanted me dead or had mental issues I would likely take my chances and draw. It all depends on the situation.

MarineHawks scenario of putting my hand in my pocket when I feel something is out of place is a good point. I can't tell you how many times I would have loved to be able to do that.

I think it's a good idea if I get into some kind of class that addresses these issues and I will. Can't say I have time to practice with the thing every month but I'll certainly spend as much time as possible learning to use it proficiently. Would be fun anyway.

Pepper spray and Tazers have uses, they are great in a fist fight ;) but I wouldn't want to use either in a gun fight. :D

BTW - I bet I would get fairly good at close quarters snap shooting really quick. I've played paintball almost all of my adult life at a tournament level. I know a firearm is different but in many ways it is very similar. Reaction time is reaction time.

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

Stand there motionless except for pulling the gun? No.

Move quckly out of his line as you pull the gun and fire while moving laterally? Yes.

It's unlikely he's going to have the immediate reaction to shoot before the 1/20th of a second elapses and your head leaves his sight line. Even then, he probably won't be able to keep his aim on you and also be able to realize that you are deploying a weapon. A million thoughts are going through his head. "What should I do? Is he running away? should I let him go? Is he a threat? Does he have enough money in his wallet to risk a murder charge?" Only two are going through yours. Move and fire; move and fire. IMO opinino your chances of surviving if you act effectively are greater than they are at correctly guessing whether or not he just wants your wallet or your life as well.

Modify the scenario a bit though. What if you're with your wife/sister/son/mother/girlfriend/etc. ? Going to "cooperate" then? Leave a violent criminal with total control over a loved one?

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

What do you guys think of this place?

http://www.frontsight.com/index.asp

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

Not sure. sounds good. Maybe expensive. This place is good and you get paid to train: http://www.mcrdsd.usmc.mil/RTR/trainingDS.htm

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

A good friend of ours works SWAT in Kansas City MO, and he said he loves it that the bad "guys" wear their pants like that. He said you know when they are going to run, because they pause to pull them up, and then they run. Works great for them and gives them a few seconds.:D

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

Phil, I like how you think!:D

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

The mark of a true professional is KNOWING when NOT to draw a gun.
Always remember that by drawing a weapon you have just turned a dangerous situation into a deadly one - so you had better bloody well know how to use it.

If anyone has any questions about this ask Peter Blake, oh wait he is dead. (Famous round the world sailor that was shot and killed in the Amazon after he tried to pull a gun on armed robbers, interestingly they did not kill the rest of the crew, witnesses, they just fled the scene)

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

You'd be better off carrying a baseball and throwing it, then yelling crack!

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

Umm...... that would be a ghey place to get training.;)

This would be a better choice. http://www.mcrdpi.usmc.mil/index.htm:D

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

x2

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

Your assertion seems to be in opposition to 800,000 to 2.5 million instances where law abiding citizens use firearms successfully in self defense in the U.S. every year. Note: Most estimates are much higher. 14 studies fell between 800,000 and 2.5m; one study, the lowest by far, was 108,000.
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html
http://www.gunsandcrime.org/dgufreq.html

Even 108,000 (and even ABC News acknowledged that the number was higher) is an awful lot of non-weird-rainforest incidents and many times higher than the total number of murders comitted in the U.S. every year.

As far as anectdotes, how about the time when a New Orleans resident pulled into his driveway in the mid-90s and there was a strange van in his driveway and his wife inside. [At the time, the average response time to a 911 call in N.O. was 38 minutes (I lived there and had NOPD members in my Marine Resurve unit)]. At that point, [1] he could wait who knows how long for the cops while they molest/kill his wife; [2] run in unarmed; or [3] go in there and kill the intruders. Fortunately, he chose option [3]. He saved his wife from certain tragedy.
He quickly drew his pistol and entered through the front door. He found three large men inside along with his nude wife tied to a chair. [She hadn't been raped yet.] He fired. He killed one; inured another; and pursued the third out the door. The intruders were armed and at least one was a convicted rapist (released, of course). By not "cooperating" with these guys, he saved himself and wife from some pretty serious tragedy. That kind of story happens a lot more often than the weird rain-forest stuff.

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

Has nothing to do with professionalism. It's maintenance of life. You can never assume what someone is going to do. You don't risk yours or anyone else's life on the possibility that someone just wants your wallet. They might want the path of least resistance and take your "property" and then take your life so that there is no witnesses.

Proper employment of any weapon is a responsibility and has to be gauged by the situation. If you are willing to simply shoot someone because you can get away with it because they pointed a gun at you, then you shouldn't carry. But, sorry, if you THINK that is all that is going to occur, your chance of death in the event he chooses to kill you is 100%.

Inaction is a choice, just as choosing to shoot a badguy is. Inaction carries it's own responsibilities just as shooting someone does. Yes, making the right decisions on WHEN to act is just as important as the type of action.

Racer, in all honesty. IMO you need to re-evaluate your need to carry a gun. You have plenty of time to think these things through right now aforehand and you are second guessing the shoot/no shoot situation. I'm sorry, but the simple truth is that if you have a gun pointed at you, and unless you are 100% positive that person is not going to shoot you or another person, you have to shoot that person. You cannot guess what their actions are going to be.

I'll put it in a different perspective. If it was some grungy guy with a gun to your head and he was simply asking for your wife's purse, how can you assume he is not attempting to gain keys or something to a vehicle so he can kidnap her to take her and rape her.

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

Wierd,

Two Marines posting the exact same time about wive's getting hurt scenarios :confused:

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

Can not disagree with you there. You simply quoted one line in my answer but agreed with the rest of my premise based on your subsequent answers. I simply wanted to point out that unlike all the "80 years old women" (Is that really so?:eek: ) opportunistic gun slingers, young Racer-X here knowingly enters hostile territories and therefore needs to be and can be prepared better than just "carry & shoot". No disrespect meant to all the firearm experts out there (I am admittedly not a handgun user), just wanted to get a little deeper into preparation than just the generic "what's everyone's favorite handgun" question. You and others did indeed go deeper with links to Marines and Frontsight where he will hopefully learn anticipation rather than response will be the key i.e. he knows he is going into hostile territory, he knows what the hostile agents look like, he will be ready most of the time before there is a gun pointing at him from 6 feet away and won't have to find out "what is the best response when there is a gun pointed at my head". More importantly, he will know whether he will be able to take a living human down for good or whether he will choose evasion at that moment before the conflict goes down. Not everyone can kill another human being at close range and it is difficult to know if you can or not until after the first one. Training that involves thinking about and simulation of another human being's death helps. Young Racer-X may decide that after much study, it may be better for him to forgo "clients" that puts him in situations where his life or another human being's life is at risk of permanent room temperature status. IMHO, of course.

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

I think yours was more articulate.

My wife fought off one of three attackers armed with handguns (the other two were subduing the two guys she was with) outside of a restaurant off of Greenville Ave. in Dallas in the late 90s before I knew her. She is writing a book about it and related concepts. They took one of guys' keys and were trying to start my wife's car (wrong set of keys). She instinctively began attacking the guy (had some limited martial arts experience) and sceaming loud enough to attract the valets. Bad guys realized things were going from bad to worse and fled. Who knows whether or not she would have ended up in the car and raped or worse if she had been compliant and "cooperated"? She wasn't going to let that happen, even if it meant living with a little risk that these are just misguided guys who would only get provoked by an aggressive response.
As well as that turned out, she and the other two guys would have had more options if they had been armed.

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

That's definitely one option to consider.

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

Or young Racer-X does a little mathematics and figures out that for a reasonable percentage of revenue from "war-zone client" he can afford to hire a body-guard to accompany him into the war-zone. In this way, he does not have to spend $$$ and time in preparation, does his thing with "war-zone client" (WTH does Racer -X do with these clients anyways:cool: ), and let the professional worry about the hostile forces shootin & lootin. That would be optimal utilization of resources, no?

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

Ok, for the freaking record. I have never heard your wife's story or talked to you or about any of this before. That's too freaky for me and I am going to now go dry fire a few times.;)

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

Come to think of it, I was at a restuarant off of Greenville in Dallas back several years ago and .......... nahhhh couldn't be.:D

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Just Kidding!

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

In the end, after all that is said and done in this posting,
It's a very personal decision...are you willing to shoot, or not!?
No one can make up your mind for you, just present you with the facts.

Either way, Be Safe!

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

I'm seeing your point. So how am I better off without a gun? If he's going to shoot me for his next crack rock - which is better - to be unarmed or hesitating to pull and shoot? ;)

I think this is where the class will come into play. All of your views are changing my thoughts on what I would do. The class would likely further that, no?


Point taken :) Edited to add: I think I would react very differently with my wife or kids around.

Re: Attn: gun experts
 

First off, I'm not young ;)

Second, as I said, normally I'm in great neighborhoods for a given client.

Let me give an example. I'm working for a mortgage broker or bank who's working on a reverse mortgage. 90% I'm in a great neighborhood, 9% scetchy and 1% of the time I'm in da hood.

The same client is literally responsible for say 30% of my companies income. Being picky about where I work and where I don't would lose me the client entirely. It's not a matter of greed, its a matter of survival for myself and my family.

Lots of careers have risks. Minimizing them is the key.