Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Aww Bebes - you're gonna make me blush!

I just got off the phone with Chad Hall and had an opportunity to speak with him about the H3 race truck and what he thought would be best for our situation.

It turns out that they run the race H3 with the following mods: V8 torsion bars (from the upcoming V8 model), a 1" body lift, 35's, and heavy duty Rod Hall shocks w/remote resovoirs. Thats it according to Chad.

When I told him what we did (Paragon, Rubicon, Moab), and what we wanted (More ground clearance), Chad seemed to think that shackles and a t-bar crank made the most sense, performance wise first and $$$ wise second. Another option to do as a second stage after the shackles would be to have the springs re-bent to add more lift. This is somthing that most spring shops are able to do according to Chad.

I am contacting one of my TTORA friends to see of they can help me fab up a set. If someone from the Forum can fab these up and is interested in helping out that would be a plus! From this conversation with Chad it seems we are on the right track. :D

Oh, he also said he was NOT impressed with the lift kit currently available for the H3 saying it is not made for off road use. Interesting... :rolleyes:

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Same here, been told by several people not to lift the truck. I'm so glad he agrees. Awesome Job Rob!!! (hey that rhymes):D

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Can someone explain the difference between a Suspension lift and a Body Lift???

And under what circumstances would you do one vs. the other?

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

A body lift is where you place spacers between the frame of the truck and the body (the part that you ride in ;) :p). It lifts the body higher into the air. It would give you more clearance at the rocker panels (if you modded the rocker rails to be closer to the body again) but would not solve the frame to ground clearance issue.

A suspension lift raises the entire vehicle (frame AND body) higher into the air.

Does this help?

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Of course :D

Thanks!:D

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

quick addition - depending on the size of the wheel wells (or with trimming) you can usually fit larger tires, which improves your frame clearance somewhat.

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Thanks Wisha, but it would probably take a lot of trimming to go the next size up from 35's.:D

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Ipedog

Thanks for the race truck suspension info

When will we get a V8? Or do I have to buy the T-bars that go with it?
:)

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

I made a pair of extended shackles for mine this weekend. Took all of about an hour to make and install. I will take a few pics to night and post.

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

I get the feeling that the V8 and the T-Bars that go with it are currently made of that special material known as UNOBTANIUM :rolleyes: ;) :p :)

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Details and Pics!!! DO NOW!!! :D:D:D:D:D

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Well I adjusted the front torsion bars up as high as I think the truck will allow and the rear was an inch or so lower then the front.
I went to a friends welding shop and got a length of 1 1/2 by 1/4 by about 3 foot length of steel and took it back to the dealership/shop and got started. First I measured the factory ones which were 3 1/2 inches center of bolt to center of bolt. As many of you know form the last few days of posts if you lengthen the shackles you will effectively raise the truck half the length. I only need a inch, inch and a half. So I measured out an extra 2 1/2 inches and marked them at 6 inches hole to hole with an extra 3/4 inch past, for a total bar length of 7 1/2 inches, cut 4 pieces, drilled holes centered side to side and 6" centered. add some black paint of course.

To install I raised the truck on the hoist and supported the axle, removing the old shackle and installing new bars one side at a time. The only thing I haven't done with them yet is you should have a tie bar welded in between the 2 sides for support similar to the shackles pictured preveously in thread. I plan to do this soon but wanted to see how truck looked and handled before final welding..as you can see in the pics they extend past the bumper about 2 inches.. I have not tested off road much but have taken it on the test track out back and it didn't hit anything.

I am also replacing the shocks. The stock shocks work fine but they have a limited travel. The stock shocks fully extended are 24" I am replacing with BDS shocks that extend to 26". This should give me another 4 inches or so drop at the rear tire when fully extended.

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

How many more of these did you say you were making????:D:D:D:D:D

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Hockey pucks between the frame and body. 1-3". More clearance for tires, no more clearance for suspension. Would help if you could get it to fix 37's, which won't happen w/a 1 or probably even a 3" body lift.

Suspension involved either springs, shackles, hangers, etc - anything under the frame. Best for moving the frame up - works well for tires as well as frame.

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Looks great! A couple questions:

When you installed the space (for the frame mount), did you put a bushing in there? Does it squeek?

Any flexing on the upside. What I mean is when you move the tires up, how do the springs flex up? It looks like the shackle angle might prevent upward travel (because it can't flex inward towards the axle). I'd be curious to see how it ends up working.

Oh yeah, this is some good stuff. Take pics of it offroad. Sell a set to Bebe before next weekend and let her try them out at Moab!!!!!!!!!

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Fissed:D

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Cestwick -

Very nice work! :D How do you like it?

I have a few questions for you if you don't mind... ;)

• If you refer to my last post on page 1 (illustrating the A-B-C points to Bebe) do you have before and after measurements from the ground to the bottom of the hanger A?
• How many cranks of the T-Bars did you make from the stock settings?
• How high are the tops of the bumpers above the ground, front and rear?
• How much clearance do you have up front now? Distance from ground to center of front skid at its lowest point?
• How is the ride in comparison to before the mod?

Additionally, if you don't mind... :rolleyes:

• Going out on the test track could you please take pics of the shackles when the truck is fully flexed? (One wheel stuffed, the other drooping as far as it can) What I want to see is what the shackles are doing when the wheels are in this position.

I'm sure that I'll have more questions soon. I hope that this isn't too much trouble.

Thanks! :D

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Looking into Gabriel or Monroe air shocks as a low cost and low tech alternative to body lift solution. This worked on my other 4x quite well. For $85.00 this offers a variable mix based on air pressure (25lb -200lb)to match what is tweaked on my front torsion adjustments (2x-5x)...

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

cestwick -

I have another question for you, one that may require input from the service dept...

• How has the pinion angle been affected? Do you get vibration in the drivetrain now?

Thanks in advance! Especially for being the poor experimental guinea pig! :rolleyes: :) :p :D

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Are you sure this works for off-roading? I know air shocks work great for leveling a truck while towing, and can be used for lift when driving on pavement. But...air shocks only provide lift while inflated, and when they are inflated, they don't provide compression, which means you can't stuff the tire. If you can't stuff the tire on one side, it won't articulate down on the other. Seems like air shocks would provide a great way to lift a truck, but a poor way to lift a truck while offroading (when it's really needed, unless you are driving over some seriously high curbs at the mall). Just my 2 cents...

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

I did a shackle lift on my Scout II I had, I did not like it, way to much body sway/roll, even cross winds made it feel really ugly. I went back took the shackle lift off and did new leaf springs. The longer the shackles the more body sway and roll. All for it for off road it that is where the majority of you time is spent. I put way too many miles on the highway to do longer shackes. With the home made ones, I would suggest some cross supports between the two halves of the shackles to take some twist out of them

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

some h2's had driveline, tranny problems after customer lifts. One customer who kept comming in and being a dick caliming it was us and not the lift was very upset after GM rep put a block on his warrenty. Be very careful not to void your coverage. It does happen

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

I took some pics flexed but will have to wait till after work.

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

No problem any more Q's just ask.

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

No prob.

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

I guess I do not understand how a shackle lift raising the truck an inch and a half could effect ride quality if you still have same shocks, sway bar, springs, ect...

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Okay, I took some quick measurements and with 315's and 2.5 turns on the t-bars:

Front Bumper = 35"
Rear Bumper = 31"
Point A = 12.5"

I didn't measure under the skid as it's too damn hot :eek: and Reed (my 3 y/o) didn't have the patience. :rolleyes:

I appreciate the help Cestwick and look forward to seeing the pics! :D

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

A shackle lift will likely cause more pivot for the leaf springs. Since suspension stiffness is a combination of everything you mentioned (shocks, sway bar, etc) plus the shackles, changing anything will affect stiffness. If you think of the leaf spring bolt swinging through an arc (with the top bolt stationary, but acting as a pivot), a longer shackle will allow more swing (longer arc). Since it allows more swing, even when driving on pavement, if nothing else changes, a longer shackle will result in the suspension system having less stiffness (because ever part moves all the time, more allowed movement=more motion=less stiffness). A less stiff suspension will result in a softer ride, but will allow more sway and susceptability to crosswinds.

I can verify this because it's common for XJ owners that offroad to get stiffer springs (I used Rubicon Express 4.5" lift springs) and eliminate the sway bars. If the leaf springs are stiff enough, you can completely get rid of the sway (but don't get into an accident or try and corner too fast!). Why do this? More flex offroad.

I've also noticed on my H3 that now that my stock shocks are getting toasted (too many gravel/washboard roads) my H3 is a lot more likely to lean over in the wind. Having a big roof rack doesn't help, but it shows that any component of the suspension can have a dramatic affect on driveability. Really there's no way to accurately predict exactly how much of a difference until you try.:)

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Pics of truck on test track with extended shackles. Fully tucked, fully extended, articulated spring and shackle.

All this talk about lifts and adjusting the torsion bars I am kind of supprised noone has been talking about sway bar disconnects.

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Pics look good. Seems like it might be a good idea to put a support bar between the two sides of the shackle? It looks like it deflects and a support bar might prevent any problems.

Also, on the front IFS, would a sway bar disconnect really matter? Seems like suspension travel would be limited by the upper & lower arms, not the sway bar (like in a SFA).

For the rear, might be a good idea, when you flex out the rear suspension, does the sway bar limit travel down or is it the leaf springs. W/longer shackles, the sway bar might become the limiting factor (or shocks). I guess I have to get the hummer out and flex the crap out of the rear and see.:D

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Only thing I am trying to do is level the truck and give it a hair more lift in the most cost effective manner. When all is said and done I should have an inch or 2 over stock, level truck, better articulation in rear, and the same relative ride quality for under $200.:)

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

My application in the South Jersey Pine Barrens may be unlike what you are facing. Your point is well taken. My wife however likes the mall curbs and advised against the air shock solution as well...
Just found out both Gabriel and Monroe dont make air shocks for the H3
so I guess its time to go cut some metal plates up!