Re: Daytime Running Lights changed ???
 

Re: Daytime Running Lights changed ???
 

This is from Daniel Stern, a lighting consultant:

"To answer the original question of whether fogs are meant to be used with
or without headlamps:

In general, it is not appropriate and not safe (and in many places, not
legal) to drive with only parking and fog lamps at any time. In fact, it's
a poor idea (and in many places, not legal) to drive with fog lamps (even
with headlamps on) unless weather conditions warrant their use. Some
jurisdictions explicitly permit fog lamps to be used "in lieu of" (rather
than "in supplement to") headlamps when weather conditions so warrant.
Current human-factors research (e.g. Sivak and Flannagan, 1997) shows that there are situations (extremely adverse weather conditions) in which running with properly-designed fogs and full position marking lamps (parking lamps, sidemarkers, taillamps) but no headlamps can be of great advantage. However, the local laws that prohibit the use of fogs without headlamps aren't likely to change until Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 108 (and Canadian Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 108) are modified to contain a meaningful performance standard for fog lamps.

More detail:

Fog and driving lamp performance is not regulated under FMVSS 108 or any
other Federal standard. The only proviso is that items unregulated by
FMVSS may not be installed in a manner that would interfere with the
function of FMVSS-required equipment. For instance, fog lamps may not
obscure or glare-out the turn signals or cover-up the headlamps. The lack
of a precise performance specification for fog and drive lamps means that
a manufacturer can call just about anything a "fog" lamp (or a "driving")
lamp. Many of the factory fog lamps on US and Canadian roads do little,
if anything, to illuminate the road--though many of them do a fine job of
illuminating other drivers' retinas. In Europe, fog and drive beams are
required to conform to specific beam pattern criteria. The toy plastic
items we get here are not acceptable over there. Because "fog lamp" has a
meaningful definition in Europe and it is possible to count on such a lamp
producing at least a specific performance level, fog lamp usage laws allow
more flexibility to use the lamps in such a manner as to maximize their
benefit.


NHTSA is currently working with ECE (European) regulators to devise a fog
lamp beam standard that is said to be an improvement even on the
already-good European beam. It's a step in the right direction,
certainly, but I remain skeptical until I actually see such a lamp.
We've been stuck with too much really bad lighting from US regulators for
too long for me to trust what they say."

Michael

Re: Daytime Running Lights changed ???
 

Ok, I have to comment on this statement. I did see that in your original post and it is a ludicrous finding but how is that proof that the study is flawed? Sure, it is an idiotic thing to put in the report but how does that effect the rest of the study?

As for the rest of your post, didn't really bother reading all of it, just bits and pieces. I do have to ask though, who wronged you so bad that you feel the need to put so much time and energy into convincing people that DRLs are bad. Was the individual that came up with DRLs your father and he left you and your mother when your were little or maybe he did something worse to you? It is also about time you give up on the whole fuel consumption argument. You can through all the math out there that you want (which I saw a flaw or two in the little bit I looked at) and it doesn't make any difference, you sound like a troll or even an AE just trying to stir the pot. Just so you can prove you are neither, post some pics of you wheeling your H3. Since you used the argument that the H3 gets lower MPG because of its off road capability and you are so concerned about fuel consumption you must have bought it to wheel. So lets see the pics.

Well, that helped pass a little bit of time :)

Re: Daytime Running Lights changed ???
 

light is good, dark is bad

Re: Daytime Running Lights changed ???
 

OK, so where is the flaw(s), so I can correct it?

Michael

Re: Daytime Running Lights changed ???
 

This does not discredit the study. There is good reason to include nighttime crash statics in an analysis of DRLs. For example:

1. Many DRLs are controlled by a light sensor, which automatically turns on full wattage and activates marker lights during dusk/dawn/night. With nothing to forget, the driver's risk could decrease.
2. Drivers with DRLs that aren't controlled by a light sensor may forget to turn them on. This leaves their car with headlights at half power and no tail/marker lights during dusk/dawn/night hours. The driver's risk could rise.
3. Headlamps burn out more quickly with DRL than without. If a lamp burns out at dusk/dawn/night, the driver's risk could rise.
4. Including nighttime statistics also eliminates the variables of winter/summer daylight hours and the need to define "dusk" and "dawn".

Most of these variables were called out in the study ... didn't you read it?

Re: Daytime Running Lights changed ???
 

You can explain this one further, I must be missing something.

You are saying just the DRLs of 30 million passenger vehicles, around 10% of the nations registered passenger vehicles, account for about 1% of the entire nations gas usage a day? What does the engine of just these 30 million passenger vehicles use? 1,000,000% of the nations daily gas consumption? :rolleyes:

Re: Daytime Running Lights changed ???
 

Holy crap, now I've gone from somewhat bored to totally bored.

MIchael, you obviously aren't the true mullethead (all his crap was made up), but I nominate you as an honorary mullethead just for continuing an argument no one cares about.

So, what's your take on airbags? (Please don't answer that, it was just a smart-ass comment)

Re: Daytime Running Lights changed ???
 

Here's the part you are missing. That is 30 million passenger vehicles on the road in any one hour during the 10 hours of daylight. I guess that figure could have been clearer.

Michael

Re: Daytime Running Lights changed ???
 

That right there was one item I was talking about because as I scanned through you post it came across like you were saying the vehicles were on the road 10 hours a day. As in each of them running 10 hours a day. Doesn't really change anything since it is such a pointless argument anyway so I'm not going to go back and reread it. Bottom line is you don't like DRLs, will go to most any extent to convince everyone they are the destroying the world and it is all the evil generals fault even though nobody here really seems to cares. I think that about covers it. You are entitled to your opinion but at the same time so is everyone else.

Re: Daytime Running Lights changed ???
 

:rolleyes:

Re: Daytime Running Lights changed ???
 

What percentage of cars do you see driving around at night with no lights on? It is not zero, but it is pretty close to it.



It doesn't eliminate variables. It ADDS a control variable. The statistics shouldn't change one bit with or without DRLs at night. If it does, you know there is noise in the data, and you use that to build a confidence band.

Michael

Re: Daytime Running Lights changed ???
 

I don't care!
I'm going to go pick the lint off my socks, it's more interesting

Re: Daytime Running Lights Data Full of Holes
 

There was press report last year that EU road casualties were little different from countries using DRL's than those not using DRL's. EU road safety data for 1989 - 1995 shows that Sweden is not as safe as the UK despite the use of DRL?s.

(source - The Times 03/06/98)
Fatalities per million miles
Britain
64
Sweden
65

In Canada there was a 12% reduction in accidents when DRL's were introduced, but during the same period there was a similar decrease in accidents the USA which did not widely use DRL's at that time.

I understand in Australia that DRL's have been tried but abandoned due to no perceivable benefits.

One concern has been that DRLs on motorcycles are being masked by cars with DRLs. Motorcycles become less noticeable, and then involved in more collisions, many of them fatal. Motorcycle fatalities have shot up from 22.66 fatalities per million miles in 1994 to 38.38 in 2003. DRLs first widespread installation on GM cars was in 1995. We may be killing motorcyclists with automobile DRLs.

Michael

Re: Daytime Running Lights Data Full of Holes
 

And does that have anything to do with the number of motorcycles on the road increasing between 1994 and 2003, or no?

First we are killing the planet with DRLs, now we are killing motorcyclists. They are probably responsible for aids, the holocaust and the existence of drugs too, right?

Re: Daytime Running Lights Data Full of Holes
 

If you read the post a little more carefully before shooting off at the keyboard, you'll notice the data was normalized per million miles.:rolleyes:

Michael

Re: Daytime Running Lights Data Full of Holes
 

No, I noticed that. But there are still changes between the times that you conveniently left out to help your cause, whatever that may be. Not the first time you left out or exaggerated facts, and you just want unbiased reports. :confused: :rolleyes:

You also skipped the last part of my last post. So, now that our DRLs are responsible for killing the planet, accounting for 1% of the nations gas consumption everyday, and are responsible for the slaughtering of poor motorcyclists everyday. What's next on your list? Really, what happened between you and DRLs? My guess is, DRLs killed your father, raped your mother and molested you. So, out with it already.

Maybe you'll have less resistance on this topic elsewhere, like maybe the prius forums or another suv forum that needs a new troll.

Re: Daytime Running Lights Data Full of Holes
 

No, it's actually per 100 million miles. Just checked the NHTSA website.

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd...004/809908.pdf

AND, motorcycle accidents actually DROPPED when DRLs started being used (95-98).

1994 22.66
1995 22.73
1996 21.78
1997 20.99
1998 22.31
1999 23.46
2000 27.67
2001 33.17
2002 34.23
2003 38.93

Besides, none of this matters. I'm guessing that there are so many statistical variables, there there's no way with any level of confidence (at least a 95% confidence interval) to prove anything one way or the other. A common statistical fallacy is to assume since the average number changes that it's the result of something - without a real statistical analysis, there's no way to tell.

An example of a real statistical analysis is this:

http://www.nhtsa.gov/portal/site/nhtsa/template.MAXIMIZE/menuitem.51ea2eb4d278d13bc22cf37490008a0c/?javax.portlet.tpst=3c0dd0fb9371f21ab25f5ed01891ef 9a_ws_MX&javax.portlet.prp_3c0dd0fb9371f21ab25f5ed 01891ef9a_viewID=detail_view&javax.portlet.begCach eTok=token&javax.portlet.endCacheTok=token&itemID= 8c184e5e1adaff00VgnVCM1000002c567798RCRD&viewType= standard

Re: The Public Views DRLs as a Distraction
 

This from a 2000 NHTSA report on driving distractions:

Driving Distractions NHTSA Report

"Surprisingly, large numbers of comments posted in these areas addressed the use of Daytime Running Lamps (DRLs). Nearly all were negative comments relating to the practice. DRLs were perceived to needlessly draw attention away from the road, reduce the conspicuity of emergency vehicles and motorcycles, contribute to glare and driver fatigue, and cause other drivers to adapt their behavior in manners that may not be safe. The main concern appeared to be with the use of excessively bright lights. Calls for limits in brightness as well as research to document the effect of DRLs on crashes and the visibility of emergency vehicles were made by many participants."

Michael

Re: Daytime Running Lights Data Full of Holes
 

I stand corrected on the 100 million miles. I am not sure why you think the day GM puts its first DRL cars on the road, that the fatality rate should shoot up. You are just looking at noise. There is no doubt that the rate is skyrocketing starting in the year 2000. DRLs the cause? Maybe. DRLs on vehicles aren't going to help motorcyclists, especially if cars keep using headlamp based DRLs, instead of the turn signal type.

Michael