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-   -   Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!? (http://www.elcovaforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23817)

bparker 01-16-2007 08:40 PM
Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 
Yep, as lung as wares "secure" lettem dew wut they wunt!

CO Hummer 01-16-2007 08:47 PM
Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineHawk
I just don't see those rights as I understand them to have been violated.

4th amend't says: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

I'm just not aware of any unreasonable searches. Maybe there have been some. I just can't fathom how we would have defeated some of the powerful enemies we conquered in the past, such as the Nazis or Imperial Japan, if we had been complaining about the government looking at our library cards. In that situation, the government was rationing basic necessities and (as was necessary) drafting and forcing young men out of their private lives in the MILLIONS to don a uniform and risk, and in 400,000 cases, lose their lives. It seems that worring about the government looking at credit reports seem so, so insignificant in comparison - such a minor intrusion, if there is any chance it could help us defeat our enemies or save any of the lives of our civiliians or troops.

Don't argue with me. Take it to the founding fathers. ;)

A lot of what they established is totally lost. But heck, we have a Starbucks on every corner so it can't be that bad, right?

bparker 01-16-2007 08:50 PM
Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 
And dont forget the illegal mexicants on every corner we really need them too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CO Hummer
Don't argue with me. Take it to the founding fathers. ;)

A lot of what they established is totally lost. But heck, we have a Starbucks on every corner so it can't be that bad, right?

CO Hummer 01-16-2007 08:51 PM
Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bparker
Yep, as lung as wares "secure" lettem dew wut they wunt!


Reminds of a chat a had with a guy in the airline industry while at DFW. He was in town to give a lecture. The theme of his lecture was the myth of airline security. He went into details about a test they ran where they tried to smuggling illegal objects past the TSA.

Attempts: 21
Successfully Smuggled in: 21.

Nice. But hey, at least we're "secure"!

MarineHawk 01-16-2007 08:55 PM
Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CO Hummer
Don't argue with me. Take it to the founding fathers. ;)

A lot of what they established is totally lost. But heck, we have a Starbucks on every corner so it can't be that bad, right?

I hate Starbucks because of their gun control contributions. We need to start a new chain of NRA cafes.;)

In case it's at issue, to justify the WWII comparison, one thing that is important to me is that, in WWII, our enemies were pretty much out in the open. Our intellegence efforts were important and, greatfully, effective, but we were basically fighting our enemies' carriers, battleships, and the thousands of tanks and aircraft their millions of troops fielded against us. Our current enemies have little or no power without the benefit of remaining hidden. They cannot possibly hope to harm us in the open. We win, if at all, by uncovering them. That's why our efforts to uncover them is more imprtant now than in any conflict we have ever faced.

CO Hummer 01-16-2007 08:57 PM
Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin Franklin in 1759
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

I agree Ben. You should tell this to Marinehawk!

MarineHawk 01-16-2007 08:57 PM
Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bparker

I agree. I just don't think that our government's excess in that situation translates to all others.

Bully13 01-16-2007 08:57 PM
Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineHawk
I hate Starbucks because of their gun control contributions. We need to start a new chain of NRA cafes.;)

AHOY Cafe?

DennisAJC 01-16-2007 09:00 PM
Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bully13
AHOY Cafe?



AAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!:jump:

MarineHawk 01-16-2007 09:04 PM
Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CO Hummer
I agree Ben. You should tell this to Marinehawk!

I agree too Ben. As I suggested in my comments about the Saudis, I just think of essential liberties as things like the ability to, as we are doing here, criticize our government and also things like the protections against unreasonable searches; the ability to practice or criticize whatever religion we want; due process; etc ... I just don't think Ben was characterizing the right to not have your credit report looked at as an "Essential Liberty." I'm pretty sure he was talking about serious infringements on essential rights. I imagine Ben would not go for general martial law and suspension of the 1st and 4th amendments to fight this war. I doubt he'd care if someone looked as his or anyone's credit history.

CO Hummer 01-16-2007 09:16 PM
Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineHawk
I just don't think Ben was characterizing the right to not have your credit report looked at as an "Essential Liberty."

I agree with you. I'm not convinced that protection of credit information is an essential liberty.

HOWEVER........

All would, on paper, agree that we should not give up "essential liberties". But I think bparker's idea here is that no one asks the question about what an "essential liberty" is. The government is given unquestioned trust and a blank checkbook to do whatever it wants. All you have to do is whisper "in the interest of national security" and everyone is expected to shut their mouth and accept whatever they do.

MarineHawk 01-16-2007 09:16 PM
Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 
"This Court has gone far toward accepting the doctrine that civil liberty means the removal of all restraints from these crowds and that all local attempts to maintain order are impairments of the liberty of the citizen. The choice is not between order and liberty. It is between liberty with order and anarchy without either. There is danger that, if the Court does not temper its doctrinaire logic with a little practical wisdom, it will convert the constitutional Bill of Rights into a suicide pact."

U.S. Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson - Terminiello v. Chicago, 1949.

MarineHawk 01-16-2007 09:19 PM
Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CO Hummer
I agree with you. I'm not convinced that protection of credit information is an essential liberty.

HOWEVER........

All would, on paper, agree that we should not give up "essential liberties". But I think bparker's idea here is that no one asks the question about what an "essential liberty" is. The government is given unquestioned trust and a blank checkbook to do whatever it wants. All you have to do is whisper "in the interest of national security" and everyone is expected to shut their mouth and accept whatever they do.

I understand your thinking. Maybe some of that is going on. I think we just see things from different perspectives. You seem to see more unreasonable accepting than complaining. I see more unreasonable complaining than accepting. I guess the truth may be subjective on that one.

h2co-pilot 01-16-2007 09:54 PM
Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 
So......is the government taking away your liberties or are the terrorists?

When we fought the Nazis, the Japanese- hell way back, even the Mongols had a way of identifying themselves. This is new times. We are fighting a "predator" that blends in. Cowards. Virus. We have to put a little antibiotics in our blood. BFD.

This isn't going to end anytime soon. Religous wars have been fought for centuries.

CO Hummer 01-16-2007 10:01 PM
Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by h2co-pilot
So......is the government taking away your liberties or are the terrorists?

Why do these have to be mutally exclusive? My answer would be "BOTH".

h2co-pilot 01-16-2007 10:07 PM
Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CO Hummer
Why do these have to be mutally exclusive? My answer would be "BOTH".

Yes, however the government's is reactive to the terrorism.

Let's again ask this question. Financial data mining has been proven effective in the UK and (if the NY Times doesn't spill it first) most likely helping our Homeland security track specific cells.

What are the alternatives to tracking and or 'spying' on these potential threats? More men/tax moneys? Armed watchmen? Cameras? Liberties will be taken regardless.

Do we wait for something to happen?

MarineHawk 01-16-2007 10:13 PM
Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 
Part of my perspective comes from lack of cynicism on this issue and my belief that I have seen nothing to indicate that the government is looking at things like credit histories for anything other than the stated purpose - to get the bad guys. I have seen nothing to indicate that some kind of McCarthyistic abuse is going on here. If I saw anything to indicate that Condaleeza was looking at CO Hummer's credit histories to see what type of Armenian porn was on his computer, then I would be pissed - just like I was at the brief disarming of the New Orleans citizens. I just haven't seen it. I won't give up my right to: carry a gun; to attend church; to criticize Hillary Clinton; to have big tires; to be able to write my thoughts freely on Elcova; to not have police coming into my home without cause; etc... No one has aksed me to give those things up. I have seen no reasonable suggestion that the police are looking at my credit history so that they can screw with me. If they need to have access to my credit history so that they can also have access to the bad guys', I'm all for it.

CO Hummer 01-16-2007 10:14 PM
Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by h2co-pilot
Yes, however the government's is reactive to the terrorism.

Let's again ask this question. Financial data mining has been proven effective in the UK and (if the NY Times doesn't spill it first) most likely helping our Homeland security track specific cells.

What are the alternatives?

I'm not arguing that data mining is wrong. I haven't given it a lot of thought so I'm not convicted either way.

But the logic in your arguement says that "if it helps convict terrorists, then it's ok".. That is a dangerous, pragmatic argument. If you push that logic to is conclusion - anything is justified as long as it gets results. You know where that can go. That's the point here.

h2co-pilot 01-16-2007 10:15 PM
Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineHawk
Part of my perspective comes from lack of cynicism on this issue and my belief that I have seen nothing to indicate that the government is looking at things like credit histories for anything other than the stated purpose - to get the bad guys. I have seen nothing to indicate that some kind of McCarthyistic abuse is going on here. If I saw anything to indicate that Condaleeza was looking at CO Hummer's credit histories to see what type of Armenian porn was on his computer, then I would be pissed - just like I was at the brief disarming of the New Orleans citizens. I just haven't seen it. I won't give up my right to: carry a gun; to attend church; to criticize Hillary Clinton; to have big tires; to be able to write my thoughts freely on Elcova; to not have police coming into my home without cause; etc... No one has aksed me to give those things up. I have seen no reasonable suggestion that the police are looking at my credit history so that they can screw with me. If they need to have access to my credit history so that they can also have access to the bad guys', I'm all for it.

Well said.

The question to those who feel that essential liberties have been taken away. What exactly has been taken from you? How is your life different from before these provisions?

CO Hummer 01-16-2007 10:19 PM
Re: Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineHawk
If they need to have access to my credit history so that they can also have access to the bad guys', I'm all for it.

But the point is - that's YOUR position. Because you don't have a problem with it - neither should anyone else, right? Hello, socialist! Just get 51% of the people to agree with you and make it so!


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