Ok, I just read March edition of JP magazine...H2 get trashed by the writer of JP magazine. They say Rubicon wins in hill climbing ability, handling, price. H2 wins in sand because of the powerful engine. Any thoughts? Has anyone 4 wheeled with a Ruby yet? if so, how did the H2 do. I know this must be a biased article.

Rubicon is an excellent off-roader.
Just not enough room for gear and people.

Rubicon is great for the off-road world.

H2 will get you the best of all worlds.

Still both have their strong points.

Whatever.

I suggest we get that 750HP bohemoth Ernie keeps pushing in Florida and we will show them how you move a box car up a hill climb.....

Wait, let me get my camera first.

Read the same article. What do you expect from a Jeep magazine? They'll thrash everything that's out there except for the Jeep. It's not called Motor Trend or Car or something generic. It's call JP for Jeep Performance. Hence the bias opinion. There was a test with H1 vs. Rubicon and guess who else also won? You tell me that a Jeep can beat an H1?

the rubicon will beat the H2 in most all off road conditions. its a great truck and the product of 65years of evolution .

in sand its more then power that gives the H2 the edge...sand is a very specific condition. it takes power, wheelbase, and a low amount surface pressure under the traction pad.

the bfg at has been known for years as a great sand tire . the large size stock on the H2 reduces its surface pressure enough that it does well.

if it had MT's it would not do near as well

I won't deny that the Rubiclown is very capable, but your not comparing apples to apples: that rig is truly in a different class.

I've said it before; we had a modified Jeep with us when we ran the 2N17X...it was raised, had a rear locker, large tires and lots of goodies. That Jeep had run the Rubicon and the driver was both aggressive and experienced.

When we came to that big nasty hill the H1's went up it, had some trouble...but just slammed through. The H2 easily went about 80% up the hill and could not get past one point due to a crater-sized rut.

The Jeep really failed to impress me: it almost immediately was spinning wheels and having traction issues. Despite his repeated attempts and aggressiveness borderlining breakage...he never made it more then 50% the ways up.

The Rubi does have a front locker and such a thing would have helped. But heck...it's just a matter of months before the E-locker is available for us to add to our front-end: that will make us unstoppable!

Getting back to the nasty hill: the stock H2 outperformed the bad-ass modified Jeep hands down. I'm not going to argue what I and my group witnessed: that's what happened.

And in closing, allow me to show you something the Rubiclown will never do: carry all three of my babies AND all our gear for a weekend:

Congratulations Steve -- judging by all those kids you do more then just mud flinging eh !!
They don't appear to share Dads 4 wheeling passion. Tell me is that twins I see, if so from who's side do they run ?? I'm betting yours.

Hey Spidey....

I fling mud only when mud is flung at me first. I guess I'm just a bit too passionate about the Hummer H2 and have a low threshold/tolerance for abusive words from those who would attack our fine rig. I'll try to mellow...but we all know that isn't likely going to happen.

Your looking at my 3 year-old Elana and our 10 month-old twins, Zoe and Emily....they are in fact indentical twins. Identical twins are not the result of two eggs coming down and both being fertilized, but rather the result of the embryo splitting (hench the indentical nature)...this is a rare thing and is not intrinsic to any hereditary issue.

I have my own theories on how I managed this...but my wife would not appreciate me discussing such matters, nor would the forum likely want to hear about it!!!

What you can be certain of is how safe we feel driving through the mountains with ice & snow during the night in near solid cloud-cover: The H2 is so sure-footed and strong....I wouldn't trust any other vehicle: DAMN I LOVE THIS RIG!!!!!

The best of both worlds......

The Rubicon is the most cable four wheel drive you can buy off of the showroom floor. Period.

It's not a commuter vehicle, it's not a family vehicle. It's made for offroad, and that's where it shines.

Granted the two vehicles are in a different class, but the Rubi will scramble up and over things a Hummer couldn't even get a tire on.

Incidently, Four Wheeler magazine did a "Ultimate Four Wheel Drive' article about two years ago. They compared a H1, TJ Wrangler, Range Rover 4.6, and the Toyota Tacoma TRD.

Results were:

1. Tacoma TRD (by virtue of rear e-locker)
2. Wrangler
3. H1 (they actually rolled it in the dunes!)
4. Rover

They got TONS of hate mail on that test.

Steve,

you are correct the H2 and rubicon are in a defferent class, the rubi is really a 2 person and some gear truck meant just for off-road enthusiasts

I believe you took my above post as a bash on the H2. It was not in any way. It was a response based on what a number of testers agree with in the 4wheel drive world.

The Jeep you spoke of was not a Rubicon so you are correct when you say apples to apples. All jeeps are by far not equal.

You said the 1 jeep you have seen was raised and had large aggressive tires.

When you lift/raise a vehicle you then raise the center of gravity.

When you add larger tires you also raise the center of gravity

That combination of modifications that raise the center of gravity on a short wheelbase most often reduce a vehicles hill climbing ability do to a increased weight transfer to the rear wheels.

I would also wonder about the drivers skill level by your description of the aggressive driving style.

Good drivers are smooth and graceful . you rarely get the feeling they are being aggressive. More often then not you watch them and they tip toe thru things by choosing the correct line and the correct locations to apply power

The hill you describe brings back many memories for me. Steep hills in relatively soft terrain vary often end up looking the same way. The passage of vehicles causes a rut to develop at the top. Rain and erosion then work on the rut in combination with trail traffic to make a rut that sucks in a vehicle causing it not to be able to pass it easily.

The proper technique to pass these locations is a combination of steps. These hills very often are soft on the bottom. This is a result of the material from the rut being flushed out and down to the bottom of the hill this part of the climb often needs to be a smooth acceleration thru the soft area on a line that aims at the higher of the two sides of the rut. As you reach the rut you need to roll of the throttle and steer across the rut. As your first tire crosses the rut you need to counter steer back into the rut using the vehicles weight against the first tire across to hold the other front tire on the other side. From this point you are straddling the rut and as you continue up the rear tire on the side of the first tire across will unweight and lift due to weight transfer. During this moment you need to avoid aggressive application of power because or it will make your other rear tire break traction and slide down the slope into the rut. By keeping your rear tireon the slope its most often a high traction climb to the top because the two high slopes will have good traction because they wont be weakened by erosion due to the fact all the area water runs down the trench.

In areas where the trench has eroded to a point its to wide to straddle the lower side of the slope will almost always have a area large enough to hold the vehicle to small to straddle it. In this case you then continue across it and the second front tire across will be the tire lifted. Once again avoid large amounts of acceleration during the moment of a lifted tire due to the fact that power will cause side slip that will slide you into the trench.


Driving tactical trails is a thinking mans game. Time and experience combined with a true knowledge of your vehicles strengths and weaknesses is what the key is

Case in point: Back in the mid 70’s Malcome Smith noted world champion cross country motor cycle racer and Jackie Stewart where hosting the “widow maker” hill climb on ABC sports. After 2 hours of watching every kind of cycle fail to make the climb. Including huge power paddle wheeled specialty bikes made just for that purpose. Jackie Stewart started goating Malcome into trying it. Malcome was astonished that nobody could drive up a hill that had so many places of good traction. Well TV being what it was back then Malcome put on his duds and got on one of his cross country racing Husquvarna’s he rode slowly to the base of the hill and started up in a very controlled graceful manner he drove close to bushes and foliage where roots systems hold the ground tight. He blasted rooster tails across a couple soft sandy stretches.he used momentum to jump the two or so ridges that stopped all the other riders and made the top in a very graceful well thought out manner.

That’s what off road is about!

Peace

thom

Well said, Musky.

I agree with you totally, it's all about driving elegant, as Granville King used to say.

In short summary - the Wrangler Rubicon is sweet! I sat in one at the local Auto Show and it's all about giving you what most 4 x 4 enthusiasts want without all the extra frills that add to the price tag.

The only knocks that I've read or heard are in regards to clearance. Some trail runs resulted in the gas tank being dented by rocks, but nothing a mild lift can't cure.

I finally saw a nice blue one on the road and Jeep will sell every single unit they can build.

Hell yeah. All the Rubi needs is a mild lift and 33"-35" tires. Stock Jeeps ARE too low.

But since lifts for them are cheap and easy, no biggie. The aftermarket makes better stuff anyway.

I like both the Rubi and the Hummer and I am waiting for the H3 to see what it will be like.
I really need the room that the Rubi just can't offer. I often wonder how a Rubi would have done on the hill we were on and if the Jeeper had more feness could he have made it.
I can tell you it was hard to find traction on that hill and it did demand alot of driver skill to get up it.
I think if the H2 had more agressive tires or a front locker it would have made it up, needless to say it was a serious challange and that is what off roading is all about.

future H2 or H3 owner

socal,

dont be so fast at getting "more aggresive" tires.

tires get there traction from the grooves across the face not the deapth of the grooves

deep grooves and large voids improve cleaning of the tread .but because the have far less cross grooves they sacrifice traction for that cleaning.

in many situations such as sand,loose dirt, or slick surfaces like ice or snow covered roads a AT(all terrain) tread will far outperform a MT(mud terrain)

the guys with the mud terrains will argue with that but they will also be wrong

what happens is the aggresive tire digs deep but lacks the cross grooves that provide the traction so the tire looses traction and starts digging the hole it then gets stuck in.

the only times MT's have the edge is when a AT tread gets clogged and wont clean itself,or when you are rock climbing and the large voids allow the rocks to to get deep enough into the voids to allow enough mechanical contact that the vehicle lifts itself without tire spin.

MM

Musky:the thinking mans fish

Dirt is for playing roads are for getting there

Very true about the tires. Agressive tread will dig the hole. In snow and wet applications the tred on an aggressive tire will scare you. I use aggressive tires because I drive a lot of rocks but on the road or wet rocks it can be scary.

If it can break it can be fixed.

Muskyman,

Okay...it's official: you're IT. From the Jeeper attack we picked up Mike and from the Rover attack it'll be you. From your expressive writing and informative material....I'd have to say you'll be well received and appreciated on the list. It is my sincere hope that you stick around and contribute. I know Mike has proven an outstanding asset. And if you have nothing else to say...just follow up any of my post with an "Amen"...it drives certain people nuts!! If you really score high they may even call you my sidekick...but lets not get too excited just yet.

You're all right: offroading is having fun with vehicles in the outdoors. Why should a brand name preclude anything??? Especially since none of us designed, built, engineered or created these toys: we just blew some coin and accessorized them.

The hill to which I made regard to was a nasty critter. You are very correct in your description: years of use have eroded the thing into something the Sierra Club would love to photograph. There really is nothing more then a channel in the ground leading upwards! There are no "lines" to follow or choices to make...you simply have two options....head forward or reverse downward. Sad but true.

The Jeep was a winner...it was completely set up with experience and done for ultimate performance (overall). It ran the Rubicon, and when the experienced driver exhuasted his finess...he turned to the last resort: aggressiveness. Maybe it just wasn't the right trail or conditions...you know how that can be. It just wasnt' a Jeep hill. A front locker would have made ALL the difference.

The Rubicon is a nice machine, perfect for two people and some gear...but I would argue about it being the most capable...especially over the H1. I've seen an H1 flip at Gorman....it happens. An H1 driver needs experience, the H1 does not come with lockers front or rear! They use BTM with their unique Torsen Differentials. I'm certain the H1 that failed the test was driven by some typical guy who just climbed behind the wheel and pushed the gas pedal. You have to work an H1 and have thorough experience to make it effective.

The H1's clearance, complete underbelly skidplate and other features make it the very best offroad vehicle bar-none. The Rubicon is more prone to rolling, has differentials and various stuff to get caught on under the chassis and suffers from serious transmission problems. I've been told it's a great rockcrawler..but that's it.

I believe there are more places a Rubicon could not follow an H1 then there are places an H1 could not follow a Rubicon. Geometry will vary, so each has their strong-points and areas they favor.

Wanna laugh? What I'm told is lethally effective...of all things...is a Suzuki that has front & rear lockers, Dana axles for greater width/stability and larger tires. Oh my lord are those things nimble and effective.

Each of our vehicles shine in different areas. It is truly futile to argue.

Here's a pic of that hill.

As you can see....the trail is like the letter "W"....tires have not only worn a rut down each left and right side...but have left a huge mound in the center. This is where the gear-driven hubs of the H1 truly shine!!!!

I know you'll hate me for saying this...but I don't think the Rubicon would have made it. The Jeep that was there was basically a Rubicon except for the lack of front locker. Even with a front locker...the diff ball's would have got MAJORLY caught up on the center.

We'll return to this trail again....wanna come?

steve we have a hill that looks just like that one on the pipeline trail we call it the trench and the way to do it is use power till the top then turn across and stradle the last part. front and rear lockers are a absolute in that loose and ruted terain. my scout goes right up it...but then again it goes just about where ever you point it

Musky:the thinking mans fish

Dirt is for playing roads are for getting there

Musk-master,

That certainly is one tight set-up, I'll give you that! But you still have not one...but two big-old pumpkins set between your axles.

You're approaching H1 capability though, certainly a formiddable vehicle!

The great thing about those two pumpkins between the axles: they are connected to solid axles.

Those solid axles mean far more suspension travel than an IFS vehicle, and more clearance in some cases.

Okay, so you found one situation where the H1 excels. Sure, it's got those great geared hubs and belly plate. But it has virtually no suspension travel! That clearance is all it has going for it.

What kind of Wrangler was it that couldn't make it up that hill? I bet it was a YJ (square headlights).

I'm sorry, but the Hummer is not the final word in offroad vehicles. For most terrain, a small, short wheelbase rig with solid axles will work best, whether it be a 'Zuk, Jeep, early Bronco, or D90.

Oh, and I'd put money on that Scout being able to out wheel an H1.

The H1 has more then "virtually no suspension"....granted it's not huge...but it's still there. Pumpkins may remain constant in terms of distance from the groud...but still..there they are in the way.

The Scout could out-wheel the H1 in some situations....but more often I bet the H1 would outwheel the Scout. I don't see much in the way of lateral stability there. Nor can it drag it's entire belly over boulders.

Come on man...give the H1 some credit. Your making it sound like an Explorer.

I built that scout from scratch

it has a 392 agricultural pump motor(18% nichol block) stroked to 414 it makes 330 to 360 hp depending on the jets and timing and fuel. well over 500 ftlbs of torque. the motor is dropped in the frame three inches to lower COG. it runs thru a 12" clutch into a T19 trans with a 6.78:1 first gear into a dana 300 TC with crawler gears.it has a rear dana 60 with 35spline axles a front dan 44 with 30 spline hub to hub. 4whl disc brakes.it weighs 4600lbs as you see it, it side hills to 44* and because it is front heavy with a low COG it climbs like you cant even believe. it has a complete enclosed belly pan that makes it dead flat underneith. it has a completly sealed intake and breather system all thru the snorkle.it has forded depths over the hood many times it submarine safe.on the front it has a hydraulic winch that combined with the boosted power steering system pulls at about 12000 lbs. it ramps 988 on a 20* ramp

it goes places a stock H1 cant even come close to. untill you ride in it and expierience what it can do ,you wouldent beleive it.

Musky:the thinking mans fish

Dirt is for playing roads are for getting there

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> it goes places a stock H1 cant even come close to. untill you ride in it and expierience what it can do ,you wouldent beleive it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like it's time for me to take my Hummer booklet and go home. A wise man knows when he's been beat. I'm not wise...but I still seem to know when it's time to quit.

Still....the H1 has more side-slope stability and the CTIS is pretty cool. Plus....I bet you can't spend nearly as much on parts even if you tried!!

Nice rig. Can't honestly say I understand all of what you rattled off....but I'm impressed!!! Just don't let MAC see that pic...he'll brand us a bunch of backcountry yahoo's! Maybe if you painted it up gloss black, chromed it out and put some underbelly neon lights or something

oh yeah....some sidebars gets them excited too!

yes I drag the belly over boulders, it side hills everybit as well as a H1 due to the droped engine and soft top.

and no I dont have CTIS, but it does have my tirelocker system that allows me to air down to what ever presure I want.

at 4psi I can drive over snow drifts like a snowmobile. plus its power to weight ratio is so good a H1 gets left in the last zip code

Musky:the thinking mans fish

Dirt is for playing roads are for getting there

Sounds like a great setup you got there Musky.

Steve, don't get me wrong, I think the H1 is cool and capable in it's own unique way. You can't strap a parachute to many other vehicles and throw them out of cargo planes, that's for sure. Also, it's fording depth while equiped with a snorkel is impressive.

The H1 just wasn't built for technical wheeling. For one thing, it's just too damn big to fit down most trails. Also, it was designed with the lead footed serviceman in mind. It's not about finessing it's way over obstacles, it's about crashing over them at high speed. Problem is, most people don't drive like that in the rear world, not when you have to make payments on the thing.

Then again, different vehicles work better than others for different kind of wheeling. I think the terrain that we wheel on is very different. Most trails I run, a Hummer wouldn't even fit. And if it did, it would be severely limited in the number of different lines that it could take. Yes, they are stable on sidehills, as long as they are relatively smooth. I think it's nice to be able to keep all four wheels on the ground, and most pics of H1's that I've seen have been of it 3 wheeling because of the lack of suspension flex. Also, that long wheelbase and low rocker clearance lead to a lowsy breakover angle and can make it prone to body damage. I've seen more than one shot of a H1 high centered on a relatively mild hill.

How about this: Just about all the mag reviews of the H2 that I've read say it is BETTER off road than the H1. What do you think of that?

Musky...

Nice Scout. Pretty serious rig there.

Just curious as to what type of carburation you made work on it.

Don

I run a milled quadrajet with snap springs on the metering rods. its 825 cfm.

the carb was custom built for the motor by brad urban at the carb shop in Cuchamonga CA

it acts like fuel injection in everyway never stutters even when the truck is at insane weird angles.

Musky:the thinking mans fish

Dirt is for playing roads are for getting there

Musky...

OK sounds cool. I didn't think you ever made a Holly work off-road very well. I didn't anyway, but I had great results with Predators though.

Don

a friend of mine at performance unlimited is a really talented tuner of predator carbs, check out his site he sets them up for lots of off roaders.

but the quadrajet has much better off-idle characteristics so because I spend most my time on very tactical trails off-idle is whats most important.

Musky:the thinking mans fish

Dirt is for playing roads are for getting there

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike97ZJ:
How about this: Just about all the mag reviews of the H2 that I've read say it is BETTER off road than the H1. What do you think of that?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm confused and puzzled. I've been on the trail several times and watched H1's do amazing things. Several times it was the only vehicle to make it to the top of horrifically rutted runs. It's definitely a vehicle that the driver needs particular experience with.

The H2....I almost forgot how we originally described it: A Jeep Grand Cherokee on steroids.

Well, to sum it up....it's like my fishing equipment: a different rod & reel for each application/situation.

My other thought....go check out my "fun in hummers" thread!

I did. I just stared at that pic for 5 minutes trying to come up with a caption. I couldn't. I'm speechless.



Oh, and I think the mags like the H2 better because it has a solid rear axle with the locker, and is a little narrower than the H1.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike97ZJ:
Oh, and I think the mags like the H2 better because it has a solid rear axle with the locker, and is a little narrower than the H1.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not to mention costing half as much?

Yeah, that too.

See, instead of buying an H1, someone could buy a Rubicon, trailer, and H2 to tow it with.

this article is probably a better one to compare the two vehicles: http://www.chicagotribune.com/classi...7298694.column

After reading that article...enough said. For me the H2 is perfect. I tow a boat, 3 quads and my former 1999 wrangelr went 30mph up the moutain pass on the way to Lake Mead in NV because the Jeeps are power starved. My H2 carries my 3 kids and gear and it'll take me anywhere offroad I have ever had the courage or stupidity to go...and come back!

here is a pic that depecites exactly what the rubicon has that the average jeep does not have.

full chassis pic

The Wrangler is more than a vehicle, it's practically a lifestyle.

You have to be a special sort of person to tollerate a Wrangler on a daily basis. A lot of reviews knock the Rubi because of it's onroad manners, but most people who buy them could care less. When the nice weather comes around and the top and doors are removed and the windshield is folded down, all that is forgotten.

Eventually, I'd like to get a Wrangler, but as a 2nd car. For me, it's just not practical enough to be a daily driver.

From a purely offroad standpoint though, you just can't beat them.

The Rubi is great because it comes stock with all the goodies that serious rockcrawlers would install on them later anyway.

Regular Wranglers come with A Dana 30 front axle and a Dana 35 rear axle. A Dana 44 is optional on standard Wranglers, but it has drum brakes.

The Rubi comes with Dana 44 axles front and rear, and the rear one is also equiped with disk brakes.

On the 6cyl Wrangler, the best gearing you can get is 3.73. The Rubi comes with 4.10's.

Standard Wranglers have optional Trak Lok rear limited slip. Rubi has front AND rear electric lockers that work as ltd. slips when unlocked.

Standard Wranglers have a 2.72 low range. The Rubi has a 4.1 low range. Crawl range is in the 60's.

Standard Wrangler has optional 3 speed auto trans w/out overdrive. The Rubi has an optional 4speed auto w/OD.

Rubi also comes standard with factory rocker protection and full skidplating.

The Rubi also comes stock with MTR's in 245/75R16, which are the biggest tires offered on a Jeep. Basically a 31" tire.

Only negatives about the Rubi are easily remedied. A 3-4" lift from Rubicon Express and some 33-35" tires will remedy the problem of the Rubi's relatively low stance.