Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Hey all -

In this thread people have been talking about leveling the H3 and getting lift from the front via a t-bar crank. Way back when people were talking about how they didn't like the "stink-bug" look that the stock set up had.

Just like many of you, I have done a t-bar crank (2.5 turns) and am happy with the results. I may go another full turn soon for more clearance up front. I don't really care if the thing "looks" level. What I care about is ground clearance.

The t-bar crank can be done to give you an additional inch or more of clearance and is simple and esentially free. No one seems to be coming out with suspension lifts and when they do they are going to be big big money.
Soooo, let me ask you this: What about shackle extensions for the rear? The rear of the truck already has shackles stock:



Why not get, or fabricate some, that are longer? This could give us an inch or more of rear lift for a relatively small investment.

Am I barking up the wrong tree? Is this something that we have discussed before and dismissed? I did a search but didn't find much of anything. So what are your thought folks? What am I missing? Should we our shouldn't we? Inquiring minds want to know! :D

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Might as well do a spring-over conversion yes??

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Yeah, the clearance issues in the back are mostly from the shackles themselves.

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

I guess that could be an option. :confused:

Unless I'm way off wouldn't new shackles, and maybe new shocks, installed be about 300-500 dollars and a spring over conversion about 3 to 5 thousand dollars?! :eek:

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Hmmm... I hadn't noticed that here on the East coast. Maybe with the BIG slabs in Moab and the Rubicon...

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

The hangers in front of the rear wheels are the real problem. We were hitting those all weekend. :mad:

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Yeah... I've got LOTS of scars on them. :rolleyes:

I just re-viewed Bully13's Rubi 2006 vid to try to see where you were getting hung up in the a$$ end. It looks like when you were coming down off the slabs you were coming down onto the leaf springs, muffler, trailer hitch, and the bumper itself. Currently the shackles are above the line of the bumper so I can't see how they would be a big issue.

Oh, how did your mufflers survive coming down off the slabs with all the vehicle weight on them?

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

The mufflers never hit AFAIK. Coming down some of those big ledges we would just ride down on the bumper / hitch.

The hangers would get caught up on rocks, almost like high-centering. We would have to get out and stack rocks in order to get enough clearance to get the rear tire up on the rock. Or just drag the hanger. :eek: :D

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

You're talking about the front attachment point for the leaf spring, not the shackle way in back, right?

If you had longer shackles that would in turn raise the entire back half of the truck. Ie: a 3 inch longer shackle would hive you 1.5" to 2.5" more ground clearance at the hanger (I'm guessing here, I don't know the exact math). Do you see the shackle hanging down beneath the rear bumper being an issue that would be worse than the ground clearance you gained?

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

I didn't get any intentional pics of us getting hung up ;) but this one kind of gives you an idea of what was happening.



You can see the scrape marks on the big rock under the drivers door where the hangers were hitting before we could get a tire up.

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

No. It's the same as the pumpkin. The only thing that will give you more clearance at the hanger is bigger tires.

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Edit...

I'm not sure I agree with you Sewie. By adding the shackle aren't you forcing the axel away from the body of the vehicle? In essence lifting the hangers away from the ground.

I've been doing some research and it seems that the Colorado/Canyon people (Who have LOTS of lifts available :mad:) do shackles to do the rear lift and a t-bar crank in the front. Typically this seems to yeild about 2 inches of lift on the cheap.

This sort of lift WOULD get the front hanger up away from the rocks.

Here is a pic of a Fabtech 3.5" Spindle/Shackle lift for the colorado/canyon. Only $600 too...

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Well, I'm definitely no expert. ;) Maybe some folks with more knowledge can give some input here.

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Hell, neither am I LOL. I'm just trying to envision the mechanics of this whole thing and try to get us farther into the air in a timely manner and without having to sell off our children! :eek: :rolleyes: ;)

Just so that we're on the same sheet of music... The part that you're refering to as the hanger is this, right?:




No, its all good Sewie. For all I know I am totally way out in left field talking out my butt. Hopefully someone with some knowledge will chime in.

This is the way I'm figuring it (put on your thinking caps ;)):

Call the connection of the leaf spring at the hanger "A"
The connection of the axel to the leaf spring "B"
and the connection to the leaf spring at the shackle "C"

Assume that the leaf spring always returns to its basic shape

A is a fixed point and cannot move in relationship to the body of the vehicle
B is a fixed height in relationship to the ground

If C is forced down away from the truck with a longer shackle and B is a constant, fixed distance above the ground, AND the leaf spring retains its basic shape

The result is point A must be forced higher into the air. This is because if point C is pushed down then point A must go up because point B is a constant.

The end result is a lift.

Oh well... I'm probably talking out of my butt. ;-p

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

so we were hanging up on our hangers???

Ipe, you are doing great so far, but I need visuals of A, B and C.....prease:D

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Among other things. :mad: :D

That and the UCP were the two biggest clearance issues.

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Ok, so the guys that kept saying we were hanging up on our shackles really meant we were hanging up on our hangers???

Just don't want to be confused....thanks.:D

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

I call 'em hangers. I'm probably wrong. :p :D

But yes, that's what was hitting most of the time. Have you taken a look under your truck yet? :eek:

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Ahm too askeered :eek:

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Okay Bebe's

In this pic you see what I'm calling the hanger. Its triangular in shape and welded to the frame. Call this point A



In these next two pics you see where the rear axel is attached to the leaf spring. Where the upside down U shaped bolts attach the leaf spring to the axel is point B

In this pic you can see the hanger A in the left of the pic.



In the this pic you can see the shackle C in the right of the pic.




In this pic you see the OEM shackle. Its about 2.3 to 3" long and is where the leaf spring attaches at end (bumper) of the truck. Call this point C


Does this make it any clearer Bebe?

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

I have no clue about suspensions but why couldn't the leaf springs just go over the top of the rear axle rather than under. You would get a lift at point A & C that way too.

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

http://www.elcovaforums.com/forums/s...34&postcount=2 ;)

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

What you want are a simple set of lift shackles. $600 is a lot of money for that. Wrangler owners use them for an easy 2" of lift.

Basically, they extend the rear mounting point of the leaf spring down from it's current position about 3-4" (or however long you want to go - more is riskier because of the forces involved). By lowering the rear of the leaf spring, you lower the tire in relation to the body, thereby raising the body.

One this you must be careful about is pinion angle. By only lowering the rear of the axle, you pivot the pumpkin UP towards the t-case, changing pinion angle - depending on conditions, you may need to shim the rear axle (at point B).

Here's what it will do for clearance (imho). The height of the pumpkin is determined by the tire height, the height of the body (and undercarraige) is determined by tire + suspension. By lifting the rear of the leaf pack, you will gain a small amount (maybe .5-1") near the front of the vehicle, but you will gain ~1-1.5" at the rear bumper. This would be very good for rock clearance on your departure angle, but shackles won't help approach (and if you raise the rear of the truck, it might hurt, relatively speaking, your approach angles).

I was at the dealer yesterday looking at the rancho lift. They have a set of long shackles in the back, maybe 4". I didn't look in the front to see if they used a hanger extension (my jeep lift had that). If you also had a hanger extension (for the front of the leaf springs), you wouldn't have pinion angle issues.



If you want to go better, get a set of revolver shackles. These are a two-piece lift shackle, that is folded in half in normal operation. When the wheel starts to drop, the shackles actually 'opens' and allows the rear axle to drop more than the leaf springs will allow. This helps on rocks to keep one extra wheel on the ground. I did a quickie google search and couldn't find any revolver shackles for the H3.

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

My quick answer would be that:

1. You are way over the 1.5 to 2 inches of lift that the torsion bars can realisticly do
2. You are messing with something very complicated with an under vs. over move. I'm not sure this would be something that should be done without some SERIOUS engineering

Besides that... I can't really think of anything. I think that the first point is the key thing here though.

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

CRYSTAL:D
Thanks!!

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Learning makes me all giggly:D

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

http://www.oly4x4.com/teraflex.htm

Scroll halfway down, you'll see a $70 set of shackles for an XJ (Jeep Cherokee). Super cheap way of lifting the rear of your vehicle. I'd bet you can get a reputable fab shop to do the same for $100.

Watch out for buginess, though. If you crank the t-bars and also lift the rear, you're going to end up with the same 'Present thyself' stance w/the azz end up in the air - great for rear clearance, but looks funny.

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Doh!! :o

I read that but totally forgot, sorry Bebe ;)

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

I was wondering about a different set of rear leaf springs where the main leaf was flush with the bottom spring hanger. This would raise the vehicle maybe 1.5" and you wouldn't have the notch wbeteen the hanger and leaf to get hung up on a rock?

This would required a differnt bend or wrap on the main leaf and maybe add a millitary full wrap on the 2nd leaf?

Look at a Rancho leaf spring for a Jeep Wrangler or an old CJ5 or Land Cruiser.

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

One small issue....may-beh... this kit is for 2WD??

2004 - 2005 Chevy/GMC Colorado/Canyon 2WD - 3.5" Spindle System

Fabtech?s Spindle system for the new midsize Colorado and Canyon features a cast replacement spindle that directly replaces the OE unit for a fast install. System includes steering stops, front brake lines and a rear shackle system to level the vehicle.

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Wouldn't it be easier to have a shop make a small skid plate or cover to protect the hanger?
Could probubly come up with something to fit the reciever hitch and protect the back bumper. Though i don't know if the hitch could handle it.

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

It doesn't really need protecting. It needs to get the FAWK OUTTA THE WAY!!!!! :mad: :mad: :D

Amstar is making a skid for the shock plates. But you just end up losing even more clearance. :confused: :rolleyes:

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

x11nty bazillion

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

I just used it as an illustration of what was available and that used a shackle in the back. I know it wouldn't fit... :mad:


I read somewhere from someone who had used a prototype that they just slid over the rocks smothly because they didn't have all the nooks and crannies to get hung up on. :rolleyes:

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

xterra owners have referred to such lift as the "Poor Man's Lift" or PML for some time. You can buy a set of these for a whopping 5o bux and lift the ass end an inch and a half to counter the front's torsion bar crank.

a l l a n

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

I've just been reading all of these ideas which i think are great and will work fine. But im thinking an even easier way to do this is to measure shock length and buy a simple set of air shox from your neighborhood auto zone then you could just lift the vehicle when needed as apposed to driving around with the back in the air all of the time. I had a ZR2 Chevy blazer which we have all seen with the back ends sagging to the ground and did this and it was awsome especially if you ever trailer with the vehicle you can just pump up the shox until you level it out. And it will give us all something to use those trick onboard air compressors for. I think the set of shox i bought were around $50.00. Just a thought

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

Wonder how far you could go B4 the need for extending hoses etc would be required without damage? Looking at the rear the distance from ground to universal gearcase is about 9" with stock/standard tires. If shackels were extended one inch at "C" It would have no effect there. Only raise body. This is unlike torsion bar tightening effect which effects both elements in front.
This would appear to solve the sag issue on the surface. However underneath the rear would still be low...

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

I am still looking for rear spring u-bolt skid plate/sliders. Has anyone seen them? I have only seen them on th AM Star web site

A spring perch slider would be good too.


Does anyone know what spring and suspension set up they use on the Rod Hall stock class H3 race truck??

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

You're right. Point B, the axel, and the dif in the center are static in height to the ground. The only way to increase this distance is via larger tires, which many of us have done (315's or 35's).

The ultimate point of this exercise is to gain height at point A. So if a 3" longer shackle would yeild 1" to 1.5" to 2" at point A then that seems a perfect thing.

Re: Front leveling = Rear sagging???
 

You are so smart:D :D :D

Let's get some longer shackels made....who do we know here that can do that for us???;)