9mm carriers, time to change
 

Friday , December 22, 2006


PORT ARTHUR, Texas ? In the middle of Joshua Bush's forehead, two inches above his eyes, lies the evidence that prosecutors say could send the teenager to prison for attempted murder: a 9 mm bullet, lodged just under the skin.

Prosecutors say it will prove that Bush, 17, tried to kill the owner of a used-car lot after a robbery in July. And they have obtained a search warrant to extract the slug.

But Bush and his lawyer are fighting the removal, in a legal and medical oddity that raises questions about patient privacy and how far the government can go to solve crimes without running afoul of the constitutional protection against unreasonable searches and seizures.

"It's unfortunate this arguably important piece of evidence is in a place where it can't be easily retrieved," said Seth Chandler, a professor at the University of Houston Law Center. "You have to balance our desire to convict the guilty against the government not poking around our bodies on a supposition."

Investigators say that Bush was part of a group of gang members who broke into a used car lot and tried to steal vehicles. According to police, Bush tried to shoot businessman Alan Olive, and when Olive returned fire, a bullet struck the teenager and burrowed into the soft, fatty tissue of his forehead.

Prosecutor Ramon Rodriguez said gang members who took part in the robbery identified Bush as one of those involved. When he was questioned about a week later, Bush admitted taking part in the robbery but not the shooting, police said.

"The officers noticed the guy looks like hell. One of his eyes is black and he has a big old knot on his forehead," Rodriguez said. "He tells police he got hurt playing basketball."

A few days later, Bush went to the hospital and told doctors he had been hit by a stray bullet as he sat on a couch in an apartment.

"Officers started putting events together," Rodriguez said.

A judge took the unusual step of issuing a search warrant to retrieve the bullet from Bush's head in October. But a Beaumont doctor determined that small pieces of bone were growing around the slug, and he did not have the proper tools in the emergency room to do it. The doctor said that removal would require surgery under general anesthesia and that no operating rooms were available.

Police then obtained a second search warrant and scheduled the operation for last week at the University of Texas Medical Branch hospital in Galveston. It was postponed again, however, after the hospital decided not to participate for reasons it would not discuss.

Prosecutors said they continue to look for a doctor or hospital willing to remove the bullet.

All sides agree that removing the bullet would not be life-threatening. But Bush's family and attorney say it would be a violation of the teenager's civil rights and set a dangerous precedent.

"When the medical profession divorces itself from its own responsibility and makes itself an arm of the state, it's a dangerous path," said Rife Kimler, Bush's lawyer.

The used car lot owner, Olive, told police that after officers had left the scene following the robbery and he began cleaning up, a man appeared in a nearby alley and threatened to kill him if he helped authorities in their investigation. The man fired at Olive and a shootout followed.

"I just can't believe I missed him at that distance," Olive, a competitive pistol shooter, said in court papers. Olive told authorities he never saw the man's face in the dark alley.

Bush is in jail on charges related to the robbery, but not the shooting.

Tammie Bush, the teen's mother, disputed allegations her son is a gang member.

"We know he's not a criminal," she said. "He's a good kid."

Dr. Arthur Caplan, director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania, predicted Bush's rights as a patient will trump the state's desire to get the bullet, and said authorities might have a hard time finding someone willing to extract the slug.

"It truly is a moral quandary," Caplan said. "Doctors are caught between wanting to help solve crimes and their responsibility to patients' rights to refuse a procedure."

Re: 9mm carriers, time to change
 

The 9mm is the most popular round in the world, from what I have read. It will do the trick. Regardless, I carry a .40.:jump:

Could be the hard head; not the round.

Re: 9mm carriers, time to change
 

This type of shiat pisses me right the freak off, I hate it! The hard working guy has less protection/rights than the the criminal. Just like the guy in FL who died of lethal injection.. OMG it hurt him according to his family.. Yeah so what! he killed a man. And I am sure that hurt that man and his entire family. I say lets bring back public hanging and give no one a chance at appeals. Yeah we might send a few to death by accident, but if we start this we may have a chance to save our kids and families. lets stop giving into those who commit crimes and lets start supporting those who are victims of these cowards and low lifes who would rather steal, kill or rape.

ahhhhhhhhhh I feel better...:)

Re: 9mm carriers, time to change
 

Someone should take a hammer, pound the bullet in and finish the job on him.:clapping:

Re: 9mm carriers, time to change
 

I see you don't believe in the old phrase from William Blackstone:
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer," :jump:

Re: 9mm carriers, time to change
 

If 10 guilty murderers out of 11 always went free, you won't have to worry about who's innocent and who's guilty.:giggling:

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I say if the guy can't have his lead back, let's see if he really is a good competition shooter and can hit the same hole twice.

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The liberals are ruining this country.:mad: :(

Re: 9mm carriers, time to change
 

.357 or .44 Magnum = DRT (Dead Right There).

I also doubt they were using quality 9mm ammo. 9mm +P+ HPs most likely would have taken care of business as well.

Remember the Hallmark motto - Always care to send the very best!


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Re: 9mm carriers, time to change
 

:jump:

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A Guillotine is better!! :dancingbanana:

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OK. whatever we do lets do it in the village square for all to see.

:D

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30-30 nice

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Yeah, he probably had low loads that he uses for competition and THONK!!!!!!.... it just stuck in his head instead of interrupting brain matter.

I wonder if the guy is going to be an attraction at the state fair next year

Re: 9mm carriers, time to change
 

I was always told to get a bullet that will hit like a truck, but still exit out the otherside. This means, according to what I was told, a +P+ carried too much velocity, would not create a large enough cavity while exiting. However, a +P, while fast, would be slow enough to create a nice sized cavity using a 9m and still be able to exit. (Assuming we're talking about the same sized slug of whatever configuration for comparison.)

Again, this is just what I've been told. I haven't been experimenting on any heads...;)

Re: 9mm carriers, time to change
 

I carry Federal HST 147gr in my duty weapon. (Sig Sauer p226)

Re: 9mm carriers, time to change
 

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed “shock” of the bullet impact is a fable and knock down power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, too little penetration will get you killed. Given desirable and reliable penetrations, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of the hole made by the bulletin. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate the edge is always with the bigger bullet. (US Department of Justice; Federal Bureau of Investigation, “Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness,” FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. (For Law Enforcement Dissemination Only.:clapping: )

Two examples. One is the 9mm mentioned (I believe), the other is what I have loaded. At times I also carry a small Taurus 9mm, loaded with Corbon 115 Grain, +P.

From the FBI ballistics lab:
9mm, 115 Grain Federal JHP +P+
Test Gun: SIG 226
Velocity 1237 fps
Bare Gelatin Penetration: 11.25”
Bare Gelatin Expansion: .53”
Clothed Gelatin Penetration: 10.60”
Clothed Gelatin Expansion: .62”

.40, 165 Grain Federal Tactical HydraShok JHP
Barrel Length: 4”
Velocity 1007 fps
Bare Gelatin Penetration: 13.85”
Bare Gelatin Expansion: .62”
Clothed Gelatin Penetration: 15.15”
Clothed Gelatin Expansion: .64”

Re: 9mm carriers, time to change
 

CorBon DPX

Expensive? yes, effective? YES!

I don't believe in calibers smaller than 9mm (for self-defense). This caliber however, will get the job done. It is also a good choice for ladies, it is effective with lower felt recoil.

Only hits count, you can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight.

.02

Re: 9mm carriers, time to change
 

I want all of you in my corner when needed.

:beerchug:

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Sorry, but not true. For example, if you shoot a person with a 230 grain .45 ACP round capable of penetrating clean trough, the killing and stopping effect will be great, but will not even compare to what will happen if one shoots the same person at the same angle with a 180 grain .30 cal. 300 Winchester Magnum round - a smaller, narrower bullet. Extreme example, but it proves the point. I once had my uncle photograph me shooting a one-gallon water jug 8 ft from another one on level ground with a 150 grain 3,600 ft.-lb 300 Mag load. In the photo (I'll have to look for it), the plastic fragments are flying through the air, which is also filled with water vapor, and the shock waves knocked the other jug down - 8 ft away. Energy, as a matter of physics, is what kills something when you are doing it by ballistic projectile. It's science. Energy is the baseline for computing the ability to kill or shut down a living object. That baseline can, and will, be affected significantly by a combination of many factors such as bullet construction, the type of target, etc. For example, a high speed, high energy round, which is too-lightly jacketed will not penetrate sufficiently on a large animal to hit vitals. But, as a matter of science, energy kills. Most high energy rounds (by either pistol or rifle standards) will penetrate to through the vitals of a person. With the same placement, 300 Mag will kill any mammal faster than any bigger, wider, high-penetrating, lower-energy .45 handgun round every single time without exception. That’s because it imparts much more destructive energy on the target - ten times more energy.

Re: 9mm carriers, time to change
 

velocity.

Not really fair to compare projectiles for rifles to handguns. Apples to oranges in spite of bullet caliber, due to velocity.

Point taken though velocity equates to energy.

Re: 9mm carriers, time to change
 

I agree with your assessment of rifle ammo versus handgun ammo. I have sat in on autopsies many times and see the differences. Plus, when in the Army, back in the days when we first switched from rocks to rifles :D I saw the effectiveness of rifle ammunition in killing. However, before stating something is incorrect, please read the source of the information, which was posted under the paragraph I quoted.:twak:
"US Department of Justice; Federal Bureau of Investigation, ?Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness,? FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit."

Re: 9mm carriers, time to change
 

Touch?. :o BTW, I think the .45 is a great caliber (though I prefer the .40 for various reasons). I do, however, think that a hot, 500-600 ft-lb 125 grain .357 load would do at least as much damage as a slower, larger 350 ft-lb .45 ACP load on a human torso shot, probably more - mostly because of the additional destructive energy it imparts. I'm not sure that I can prove it though. I own neither a .45 nor a .357 so I don't have a dog in that fight. The reason a rifle round inflicts such awesome damage is due to the tremendous velocities which produce a high kenetic-energy projectile (energy being based on the square of the velocity). It seems to me that the same reason would apply to higher-energy handgun rounds - though the differences would be less extreme.

Re: 9mm carriers, time to change
 

I've got these in my .45 and think they'll do a fine job.


In the Glock 26 and S&W .357 I've got some damn fine hollow points. While the old .32 has some cheap range ammo, I think the others will do what they're supposed to.:D

Hey, what's best for bouncing around inside a head or chest cavity? A hot .22 or something?:giggling:

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I also prefer the .40. I will agree a .357 is a wicked round. But my experiences with the .357 SIG round is it is too damn loud.:fdance:



Depends on the head. As we all know, some heads are harder to penetrate than other heads.:jump:

Now, if y'all want a round that will do the trick...
Corbon, .50, 440-grain Cast Performance flatnose lead with 1625 fps velocity and 2578 ft-lbs energy at 49,500 psi. But you may have back problems carrying the pistol.:jump:

Re: 9mm carriers, time to change
 

Food for thought: http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs5.htm

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Very true, and also, no mattter what caliber you have, it is worthless if not with you when needed.:excited:

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Not a very fair compairison the Hydroshock bullet has a steel rod built into its core which act as a penatrator. BTW Thats the only round I roll with. Got em for the .40 USP also have the Hydroshock 12gauge sabot slugs for the Beretta 1200 fp:D :D :D I hate personal injury lawsuits:giggling:

Re: 9mm carriers, time to change
 

Ditto on the Hydrashocks. As to the comparison being unfair, it would have even been worse with the 155 gr (1,140 fps) .40 S&W Hydrashock. That's the one I carry. The 165 gr. HS puts out only 352 ft-lb energy as opposed to 447 ft-lb for the 155 gr. round - 27% more for the latter. I've shot both of them at water jugs, and the 155 gr. cartridge is definitely more violent.

Re: 9mm carriers, time to change
 

I like the ballistics of that round, but I don't know much about it. It's rimfire, right? What does it look like? What guns are chambered for it?

Re: 9mm carriers, time to change
 

Just to clear it up. Comparison of the bullets was mine to show the difference between what someone noted they carried (9mm) versus a .40 cal that I carry. Just a friendly comparision. Had nothing to do with the article I posted.:D