This will totally suck!

[XM DUDE]

I heard in 10 years that most of GM's vehicles will be made in China!, so you have 10 good years of Hummer buying before the quality takes a dive. I rally hope this dosen't happen, as I hate **** made in China or anything to do with China for that matter.

[evomind]

you have some valid points, shipbldr....
let me preface this by saying to go into this in depth would fill an encyclopedia. ill touch on a few...
a big reason why there is more money than supply (or goods) is because of all the millions made by "dot com'ers." real estate "flipping." and anything else where real money is made without a tangible item produced. we buy our tangible items from companies overseas. were putting their people to work.
people to work, hmmmm. why do companies start factories in mexico? because they dont wanna pay the highway robbery tax system we now have here and we dont want to pay for products at a price where a union labor force is making 30 dollars an hour to assemble electronic boards.
hence, slowly but surely our country is falling into 2 categories, highly paid, very specialized labor, and lower skilled manual laborers. the middle class is shrinking. it now takes 2 salaries to maintain the lifestyle americans were accustomed to years ago on 1 salary. where is much of that second salary going? to day cares and retirement funds and many other things where no tangible product is produced. or at least not produced in this country.
we could go on and on....its very complex and very global.
as far as the chinese, without going into the politics of "diversity training" too much, just keep in mind how huge they are and how very, very, different their ideas are on human rights issues. they are a huge military power, what happens if and when they ever become a huge economic power?
on the bright side, very very seldom are wars fought between countries that make money off each other.

[XM DUDE]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ODAMO:
If we lose our ability to manufacture ( we are) then we will eventually lose our ability to defend our nation. PERIOD - end of discussion -

FIXING CHINEESE JUNK......AGAIN </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
And anyone that can't see that has their head up and locked!

[Huck BB62]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by f5fstop:
Whether or not China or even Korea is the place where the Hummer will eventually be made may be determined in the next few years.

Not to sound like a union basher, but the UAW has to wake up and realize the auto companies can no longer guarantee their pay if a plant closes.

The job banks was originally setup for the temporary closing of a plant so that the workers would be around in a few months when the plant reopened. However, GM alone, pays over 700 Mil to workers who are not working. This has to go, and they should have the same permanent layoff policy that the salaried worker has: one month severance for each year worked, with a maximum of 15 years.

The UAW worker also has to start paying their share for health care. As a salaried worker, I pay over 70 per month for my health care (not counting life/accident insurance). I AM NOT COMPLAINING, but hearing the UAW workers complain about paying the same amount, makes me furious, and it is causing a large split between the salaried and factory workers at GM.

Whether or not they wake up to this in the 07 contract talks is up to debate. However, if they get stubborn and refuse to listen, they will find out GM can and possibly will go bankrupt, and do a Delphi. Keep their overseas plants, but close the US plants.

GM management over the many years, is also to blame. One for signing these contracts without seeing the future. For not making decent vehicles back in the 70s and 80s, and not designing what the customer wants. I believe they now make a quality product, and the designs are getting better.

As for losing our manufacturing we lose our defense, I could not agree more. Just look at WWII. The US was able to fight on two fronts, equipped two forces (Pacific/Atlantic) with some of the best equipment, due to the fact we were the largest manufacturing nation in the world. It took time, but the US auto manufacturer and others converted their factories from cars and trucks to tanks and planes. (GM, through their Fisher Guide Division was the largest producer of Grease Guns in WWII, and I don't mean the grease gun used to lubricate a car.)

The other problem is, and this is nothing against anyone here, but the purchase of Japanese transplant vehicles. Yes, this put Americans to work, yes, Americans have a right to purchase whatever they please, but the US car manufactures invest more back into this country in one year, then most Japanese manufactures invest in 10 years. And by investment, I don't just mean building big plants, I mean taxes, workers salaries, etc.

I personally will never purchase a Japanese vehicle; I'm pissed that there are numerous Japanese components on US made vehicles; but to purchase a Japanese vehicle would in my mind, be an insult to the military that fought in WWII, and especially my Uncles, one who fought and told me about the war in the pacific, the other who died somewhere in Bataan, never did find out if it was during the March, or toward the end of the war when they Japanese burned POWs alive; not sure if anyone really knows.

Guess I have said enough to pee off some, but after work today, I really felt like ranting. Time to head for the local pup....
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's funny that you feel that way f5fstop, since your moniker is "And ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free" you should know this: One of the most expensive parts on our Hummer H3, the braking and traction control system, is supplied by ADVICS North America, which is owned by a consortium of Japanese auto suppliers Denso, Aisin Seiko, and Sumitomo Electric which made it's name as a primary supplier to Toyota.

Gonna sell your Hummer?

About the Chinese. It's all about an uneven playing field. It's not at all some rediculous thing that they're willing to do what we won't and for less money (what a load of krap) it's about them not having OSHA, the torte system we have, EPA, you name it.

[XM DUDE]

I heard in 10 years that most of GM's vehicles will be made in China!, so you have 10 good years of Hummer buying before the quality takes a dive. I rally hope this dosen't happen, as I hate **** made in China or anything to do with China for that matter.

[ODAMO]

If we lose our ability to manufacture ( we are) then we will eventually lose our ability to defend our nation. PERIOD - end of discussion -

FIXING CHINEESE JUNK......AGAIN

[bparker]

Same here, I quit buying from Wal-Mart about 5 yrs ago and now try to hit Walgreens or CVS. But I am sure they buy from china as well.. LOL

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by XM DUDE:
Well if everyone stopped going to Wall Mart, that would help, I too buy American when I can.
Irefuse to ever set foot in a Wall Mart. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[JV1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Whether or not China or even Korea is the place where the Hummer will eventually be made may be determined in the next few years </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The day that Hummers are made in China or Korea is the day that I don't buy one. I will never buy a vehicle that is made in china or korea.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Not to sound like a union basher, but the UAW has to wake up and realize the auto companies can no longer guarantee their pay if a plant closes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hate unions. In our history they served a very important function. When they started protecting drunks coming to work, workers that constantly scrap parts because they don't care, and people who don't do any work, well that totally turned me off.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
The job banks was originally setup for the temporary closing of a plant so that the workers would be around in a few months when the plant reopened. However, GM alone, pays over 700 Mil to workers who are not working. This has to go, and they should have the same permanent layoff policy that the salaried worker has: one month severance for each year worked, with a maximum of 15 years. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
GM management over the many years, is also to blame. One for signing these contracts without seeing the future. For not making decent vehicles back in the 70s and 80s, and not designing what the customer wants. I believe they now make a quality product, and the designs are getting better. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

GM management is even more responsible for all this crap because they let the union run the company.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
As for losing our manufacturing we lose our defense, I could not agree more. Just look at WWII. The US was able to fight on two fronts, equipped two forces (Pacific/Atlantic) with some of the best equipment, due to the fact we were the largest manufacturing nation in the world. It took time, but the US auto manufacturer and others converted their factories from cars and trucks to tanks and planes. (GM, through their Fisher Guide Division was the largest producer of Grease Guns in WWII, and I don't mean the grease gun used to lubricate a car.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And now the best for last. The biggest problem (not GM only) is the lack of competent leadership. The CEO's of the big companies today are not real leaders. One does something and they all fall in line like a bunch of obedient soldiers. They can't think for themselves. Today they are outsourcing jobs to India and third world countries for the almighty SHORT TERM dollar. In most cases they are training workers in those countries how to do everything. In ten or twenty years they are going to stand there and ask how come these countries are eating our lunch? How did this happen? It happened because the CEO's who are being paid astronomical salaries and bonuses are not competent to manage companies for the long term. It's time for shareholders to stand up for themselves and demand competent leadership for fair compensation. Until that happens, I am sorry to say, not just GM, but this entire country is doomed.

[Grandman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wannabeH3:
I just got out of BRAIN WASHING and learned that you must open your mind to the positive of this before passing judgement. what good will this bring to the company? and to the employees? im sure it will be splendid!~!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fixed it for ya . I dont buy forigein built autos , when GM has them built there can sell them there .

[Huck BB62]

[quote]Originally posted by evldave:
my 2 cents (or is that 1/6 RMB?)

I studied Chinese history in college, have gone there on business 5 times in the last few years, was project manager to outsource some of our admin work to India (scuttled that), and have a lot of friends that are Chinese (in China, not Chinese-American).

I've also toured manufacturing plants in Korea, China, India, and the US (likely more than anyone here). None in Japan (see F5fstops rant, I completely agree with that).

Here's the difference: There is PRIDE in the work done in those mfr plants overseas. They hold us up as a model (see WWII), and continue to work hard to be like us, not beat us. Unfortunately, we have gotten fat and happy (too much talking about WWII instead of making sure we can win WWIII). I hear a lot of talk at US manufacturing plants about 'buy american' and some people do, but mostly when it's convenient or cheap. Instead, we sit around and talk about how good the good ol' days were and bit*h about these other places where it's cheaper to make stuff.

And I'll say this, in general, I wouldn't trust someone from China for much of anything. Their culture allows and even promotes reverse-engineering - not as theft but as triumph. They'll steal every good idea we have, then partner with Korea to make it better (and Korea's darn close to our equal in hi-tech development). And once the government finally realizes things like TPS, LEAN, Six-Sigma, and all those other mfr-line quality and efficiency programs work, you can kiss large-scale manufacturing in the US bye-bye.

And you can gripe about China, but we should all be looking at Africa and Central America (not Mexico). There's been a slow but steady increase in movement of hi-tech manufacturing out of Taiwan/Korea/China to places like Nigera and Costa Rica. One problem with a peaceful world is that there are lots of people out there willing (and getting more able) to do more work cheaper. China's just the tip of the iceberg.



QUOTE]

I don't agree at all with this being some work ethic thing. Go tell the good folks in Shreveport or Indiana that on a lunch break at the Hummer factory, if you dare.

The Chinese are completely unethical, as you point out. They are not bound by environmental compliance. They are not bound by OSHA rules. They are not bound by law suit induced nonsense. They are not bound by copyright lawas (well, they are, but again, they completely ignore them) Their quality control standards are, as you point out, nowhere to be seen. (I'll believe the Chinese following ISO standards and instituting Six Sigma programs and the like when I see it).

Korea partnering with China? Maybe the backwards, produce nothing idiots in NORTH Korea, I hardly think you'll see the day of a large scale South Korea (where the manufacturing is taking place)/ China co-op.

COST is just the tip of the iceberg.

It's just like this nonsense that white kids suck at school compared to the Asians. Hardly.

Do people WISH the US to be inferior? They're not. The people aren't.

We're up to one trillion dollars in trade deficit with China. Pretty soon, the Chinese will call the marker and own large tracts of the US and the war will be on.

China's whuppin' our tails because we're letting them. They sell us stuff for insanely low prices and we buy it. It's cheap because the reasons stated above. The playing field isn't level and our elected representatives obey the corporate lobbyists (been watching the headlines?) and anyone who says differently is labeled as a protectionist idiot. The lawmakers allowing this insanity claim that by an unfettered market, we'll sell more stuff. Hogwash.

Here's the problem. We have the money, but not for long. We BUY the stuff, but not for long. When that pendulum swings, it's gonna get ugly. This is not sustainable.

The container ships are leaving empty and coming back packed full. Visit Alameda and Long Beach California and watch. Here's a picture I took under the Golden Gate Bridge of one leaving empty.


Again, if I hear one more time how the Chinese are doing it better as a work force, I'm gonna scream. It couldn't be further from the truth.

[XM DUDE]

Well if everyone stopped going to Wall Mart, that would help, I too buy American when I can.
Irefuse to ever set foot in a Wall Mart.

[H3 Hummer]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9909202/from/RL.5/

[evldave]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Huck BB62:
I don't agree at all with this being some work ethic thing. Go tell the good folks in Shreveport or Indiana that on a lunch break at the Hummer factory, if you dare.

The Chinese are completely unethical, as you point out. They are not bound by environmental compliance. They are not bound by OSHA rules. They are not bound by law suit induced nonsense. They are not bound by copyright lawas (well, they are, but again, they completely ignore them) Their quality control standards are, as you point out, nowhere to be seen. (I'll believe the Chinese following ISO standards and instituting Six Sigma programs and the like when I see it).

Korea partnering with China? Maybe the backwards, produce nothing idiots in NORTH Korea, I hardly think you'll see the day of a large scale South Korea (where the manufacturing is taking place)/ China co-op.

COST is just the tip of the iceberg.

It's just like this nonsense that white kids suck at school compared to the Asians. Hardly.

Do people WISH the US to be inferior? They're not. The people aren't.

We're up to one trillion dollars in trade deficit with China. Pretty soon, the Chinese will call the marker and own large tracts of the US and the war will be on.

China's whuppin' our tails because we're letting them. They sell us stuff for insanely low prices and we buy it. It's cheap because the reasons stated above. The playing field isn't level and our elected representatives obey the corporate lobbyists (been watching the headlines?) and anyone who says differently is labeled as a protectionist idiot. The lawmakers allowing this insanity claim that by an unfettered market, we'll sell more stuff. Hogwash.

Here's the problem. We have the money, but not for long. We BUY the stuff, but not for long. When that pendulum swings, it's gonna get ugly. This is not sustainable.

The container ships are leaving empty and coming back packed full. Visit Alameda and Long Beach California and watch. Here's a picture I took under the Golden Gate Bridge of one leaving empty.


Again, if I hear one more time how the Chinese are doing it better as a work force, I'm gonna scream. It couldn't be further from the truth. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, start screaming. Have you ever been to China? How about Korea? Anywhere else in Asia? If not, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. I buy American as much as I can (including spending more for an American made product if it's not too expensive). But we're lazy by comparison. You go to a factory in China and they are working their a$$es off, go into a factory in the US and some are working hard and others are standing around. Not as bad as Europe, but we don't have the work ethic we used to have, stop whining.

Speaking from experience, and working for a company that outsourced some of our work to India, and other work to China, I can say I'll take a worker busting their butt to live the life they see on TV over the worker who feels they are entitled to something they haven't earned yet (see present-day unions for examples). Cost plays a huge factor, and we can't compete, but it's pride, work ethic, and productivity that matters over the long haul.

And Korean companies use Chinese manufacturers all the time (not just North Korea). Koreans hate Japanese, not the Chinese - there's a long history between the two countries. You think it's just North Korea? Stop watching CNN and do some research - in addition to massive investments in Central America, China is also investing in Korea and a number of other countries (in SE Asia and Africa). Why? Because they know if they can get over their own cultural issues related to piracy, get some talented design(not just manufacturing) talent, they can take over the world. India is in a better position - more population, better educated, etc - but their costs are higher. If China adopts India's model of guaranteed higher eduction, we're screwed. We'd win any military war, but we're in sorry shape if we continue with this whole 'China sucks' whining and don't do anything about it (like suck it up, take a pay cut, stop buying cheapa$$ chinese goods, and spend less time worrying about our generation and start thinking about the next).

[Sewie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wannabeH3:
I just got out of diversity training and learned that you must open your mind to the positive of this before passing judgement. what good will this bring to the company? and to the employees? im sure it will be splendid!~!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Snap out of it!!!

[Huck BB62]

Look eldave, unfortunately, I do know what I'm talking about. I'm not getting into a pissin' contest with you. What I said is true.

You contradict your own self. Admiring the Chinese for wanting what we have. They're busting their butts to EAT. They live like krap, they're treated like krap, and that's not going to change for a long long time.

You just completely ignore anything anyone's said about the differences between the two systems. Patent and copyright violations. Poor working conditions. No EPA, OSHA or ANY kind of regulatory restrictions. To you, and the way your argument is summed up, it's that the Chinese are better and harder workers. Again, what a crock.

You think the 40 hour work week, retirement packages, medical benefits in this country popped out of thin air?!? Chinese are living in conditions that existed in this country almost one hundred years ago. The people in this country had to work that hard back then too. I refuse to feel guilty for me or anyone else living in a civilized country.

Yeah, I do know about China. I've been told first hand about how all of their supervisors at a plant that didn't meet production were put in a circle and gunned down as a motivation technique. This is true and I could care less that you believe it, but people should damn well know how it is over there instead of some dreamy eyed pie in the sky wishful thinking.

You've got a lot of "if's" in your way of thinking. I could'a been a rocket scientist if...

Again, I'd like you to visit the break room during lunch time at the Shreveport plant and let the good folks that built your friggin' H3 know how you feel about them. Me, I'm proud of 'em. I don't see a damned thing wrong with employees getting a piece of the pie that would otherwise go to shareholders or the suits in stock options so that they can buy $3000 umbrella stands.

You've got your team, I've got mine and that's who I'm rooting for.

Print this stuff out and save it for your grandkids. I'm betting they'll love you for it.

[NEOCON1]

even my 90 silverado has a bunch of metric $hit on it . at least they get put together here

[Bill1065]

Frankly I think we are pretty much already owned by China and foreign oil. They don't need a war to bring us to our knees, just a joint boycott.

[f5fstop]

Whether or not China or even Korea is the place where the Hummer will eventually be made may be determined in the next few years.

Not to sound like a union basher, but the UAW has to wake up and realize the auto companies can no longer guarantee their pay if a plant closes.

The job banks was originally setup for the temporary closing of a plant so that the workers would be around in a few months when the plant reopened. However, GM alone, pays over 700 Mil to workers who are not working. This has to go, and they should have the same permanent layoff policy that the salaried worker has: one month severance for each year worked, with a maximum of 15 years.

The UAW worker also has to start paying their share for health care. As a salaried worker, I pay over 70 per month for my health care (not counting life/accident insurance). I AM NOT COMPLAINING, but hearing the UAW workers complain about paying the same amount, makes me furious, and it is causing a large split between the salaried and factory workers at GM.

Whether or not they wake up to this in the 07 contract talks is up to debate. However, if they get stubborn and refuse to listen, they will find out GM can and possibly will go bankrupt, and do a Delphi. Keep their overseas plants, but close the US plants.

GM management over the many years, is also to blame. One for signing these contracts without seeing the future. For not making decent vehicles back in the 70s and 80s, and not designing what the customer wants. I believe they now make a quality product, and the designs are getting better.

As for losing our manufacturing we lose our defense, I could not agree more. Just look at WWII. The US was able to fight on two fronts, equipped two forces (Pacific/Atlantic) with some of the best equipment, due to the fact we were the largest manufacturing nation in the world. It took time, but the US auto manufacturer and others converted their factories from cars and trucks to tanks and planes. (GM, through their Fisher Guide Division was the largest producer of Grease Guns in WWII, and I don't mean the grease gun used to lubricate a car.)

The other problem is, and this is nothing against anyone here, but the purchase of Japanese transplant vehicles. Yes, this put Americans to work, yes, Americans have a right to purchase whatever they please, but the US car manufactures invest more back into this country in one year, then most Japanese manufactures invest in 10 years. And by investment, I don't just mean building big plants, I mean taxes, workers salaries, etc.

I personally will never purchase a Japanese vehicle; I'm pissed that there are numerous Japanese components on US made vehicles; but to purchase a Japanese vehicle would in my mind, be an insult to the military that fought in WWII, and especially my Uncles, one who fought and told me about the war in the pacific, the other who died somewhere in Bataan, never did find out if it was during the March, or toward the end of the war when they Japanese burned POWs alive; not sure if anyone really knows.

Guess I have said enough to pee off some, but after work today, I really felt like ranting. Time to head for the local pup....

[wannabeH3]

I just got out of diversity training and learned that you must open your mind to the positive of this before passing judgement. what good will this bring to the company? and to the employees? im sure it will be splendid!~!!

[evomind]

say what ya like.....everything u said was factually based rather than opinion anyway. (im not sure abt the 10:1 ratio but oh well)

i was disgusted when the smithsonian wanted to take down the enola gay exhibit because they felt it was "offensive to the japanese." those old men (american ww2 vets) marched the smithsonian in protest. they marched as they had marched defending our country and every other country affected. some of those men cried. finally the smithsonian reconsidered. what will happen when there are no more old men who were there to protest some of this absurd "politically correct" actions? are we to forget history in the interest of politically correct?

so fstop, buy what u want. i can understand why u wouldnt want to buy a japanese product, but i believe thats impossible in todays world.