Turbo charging vs. Supercharging

[GeorgeSSSS]

Has anyone owned both a turbo charged H2 and a supercharged one? -- -- or driven one of each? A comparison of the two systems responsiveness and other issues would be worth reading.

George SSSS

[h2sin]

You stock oil cooler is meant to cool a stock motor during heavy load, not a 1200F turbo.. imagine how hot that oil gets and how that effect the thermo efficiency of your motor.

And where do you get this MTBF on wastegate for the vehicles?

Let's say due to high heat your turbine oil seal is leaking, your losing oil and you are 10000 ft above ground... Are you going to keep flying that aircraft until you feel like landing it?

Question: And a turbine shaft oil seal does consider to be a turbo failure right?

[LasVegas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">by indjuction.....Anyway, I have seen quite a bit of talk here about remote mount turbos and I think there are many things that the general public doesn't know about this type of design. Unless you have a very thorough knowledge of turbo system design, you have no way of knowing these things. But if you're going to lay down your money for something, especially several thousand dollars, wouldn't you want to have all of the facts? I think that if you read these points, you'll see that they are all common-sense items when you understand whats going on. I'm going to explain all of this in simple layman's terms, so regardless of your technical skill level, you will understand and learn.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Induction. I think you're over killing here with the technical jargon. Have you tested or have numbers on a remote mounted system? We're not building dragsters here. These are street/off road rigs. I'm a pragmatist. My remote mounted turbo delivers 6.5 pounds boost, is very responsive, and accomplishes what most people would want or expect with a 4-ton rig. Many have expressed "opinions" here but unless they've had hands on experence they should be asking questions or at best giving "qualified" opinions. Everyone seems to have an opinion but unless they have personal experience they're talking out their ass. I don't try to tell anyone what a supercharged H2 drives like because I've never driven one. Others should extend the same courtesy.

[h2sin]

Turbo uses oil and coolant, both are consider to be the most vital part of an engine. Now add 1200F to that then you will know why I'm saying what I'm saying.

I'm done. I dont think most ppl on this board care about this subject anyway.

[h2sin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LasVegas:
Guess you didn't understand. A pilot does a routine preflight inspection before every flight. There's a checklist for every aircraft. He's not inspecting the aircraft for maintenance purposes but to determine that there are no deficiencies and that the aircraft is airworthy. Not to turn the wiggit on top of the turbocharger. And it wouldn't matter whether it was turbocharged, supercharged or BScharged. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im not going to beat this one to death but an inspection exist for a purpose.. does your H2 require a safety inspection before you drive it to the grocery store

[LasVegas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GeorgeSSSS:
Has anyone owned both a turbo charged H2 and a supercharged one? -- -- or driven one of each? A comparison of the two systems responsiveness and other issues would be worth reading.

George SSSS </div></BLOCKQUOTE>George...I've not driven a supercharged H2 but I think I'm the only member with a turbocharged H2 (remote mount STS). If I had to guess, and it's a guess, the supercharger probably has little more torque from a dead stop than the turbo. But I can tell you it's only a second or two to from a dead stop when the turbo comes in and then it's a screamer. Anything above 1500 rpm the boost is there and just keeps screaming.

[h2sin]

Most turbo I have seen have both oil and coolant passage, not everyone think the coolant is necessary, I guess that really depends on what type of application you are running. And you using a stock oil cooler on your H2 with a turbo installed tells me something

You wont answer because you know the obvious answer and so does everyone with a common sense.

I do hope someone does take my opinion seriously and disregard your statement about its ok to operate your car or aircraft after a turbo failure has occured.

And no matter what has been said here, people are still going to choose SC over turbo why go thru the trouble of installing a turbo when you can get the exact same result using a SC with less hassle

[LasVegas]

I'm sorry H2Sin. I don't think you understand either the principles or components of a turbocharger system. I've had a great deal of experience with turbochargers. Granted, 95% of that was in aviation. But the principles and components are identical. I just think it's wrong for you to make such broad statements and conclusions with what seems to be limited knowledge about turbos. Let's not waste each others time.

[Boar-Ral]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GeorgeSSSS:
After what I've read, I think I'm going to leave my engine "stock." I'm very happy the way things are. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I cannot afford a supercharger or a turbocharger, so it is a moot point for me. But it is definitely a crash course in turbochargers and superchargers reading this thread.

[Boar-Ral]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by h2sin:
NASCAR uses carburetor, does that mean fuel injection sucks? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I thought they used carberators because they were simpler and less prone to failure. I do not know much about racing, though.

[h2sin]

And PLEASE stop with the race car talk..

NASCAR uses carburetor, does that mean fuel injection sucks?

Turbo are used frequently on formula cars because its easier to use a turbo to create more power out of a small cubic inch motor.

[LasVegas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by h2sin:
Land Rover Supercharged, I'm sure you seen the commercials <span class="ev_code_RED">Thanks for that info. It's about the only one.</span>

You can used whatever you want for the oil lines but its the tempersture of the oil that I'm worried about <span class="ev_code_RED">mine stayed the same. No rise whatsoever. H2s have oil coolers standard.</span>

Wastegate can fail just like anything else in your aircrafts or cars, how frequent does it fail.. I dont think anyone can have a real answer to that. <span class="ev_code_RED">Oh yes they do. It's called MTBF (mean time between failure). And it's high. Just don't know the number right now.</span>

Nothing last forever, everything will need to be replace sooner or later. Turbo system just added that much more to it. <span class="ev_code_RED">????????????????</span>

You cant possibly estimate something that you have absolutely no control over, $800 would be the best possible scenario <span class="ev_code_RED">Wrong. I've bought many. $800 is high.</span>

P.S. If your turbo fails.. I hope you stop driving your car to prevent futher damage <span class="ev_code_RED">Huh??? I'm sorry Sin, you really don't understand turbochargers. If a turbo fails, the only thing you lose is boost. Drive it forever. Won't make any difference and won't damage anything. </span> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Induction Concepts]

Your whole point is based off of some questions I asked years ago. I was trying to learn the strengths and weaknesses of that particular application, something I do for any new application I am considering for prototype development. Its called homework/research. I didn't lie about it. I don't know everything, I have never claimed to. Unfortunately we aren't all born with infinite wisdom, we must learn, which is what I was doing.

Its not like I was a dairy farmer and one day, out of the blue, decided to build turbo systems. I experienced the whole process first hand, as a customer. I have loved hot rods since I could walk, they are truly my favorite thing. I had tried about every other means of hot rodding except turbos and I wanted to try it, so I did my research and saw all the problems that people had trying to get turbo systems for their cars, horrible quality, poor designs, little or no customer service, not returning or answering phone calls, or if you do get them to talk to you on the phone, act like they have better things to do than to piss with you and rush to get you off the phone, instead of taking the time to make sure all of your questions are answered, days or weeks before responding to emails (if at all), getting your parts and finding out that half the parts don't fit, the other half are missing, etc. So I bought a used Incon kit because they made the best kits at the time and I was knew I would be getting a complete system. Incon is the company that actually designed the turbo systems for Lingenfelter. Same cast iron manifolds and downpipes, low mounted, on each side of the oil pan. I saw how it was designed, how difficult it was to install (and do regular maintenance on) and lots of things I would change if I did it myself. I got it installed and started driving it and fell in love. It was the greatest thing in hot rodding I had ever experienced, by far. I knew I'd never want another car or truck without turbos.

It was at this point, after experiencing all of this that I started thinking that I could do a better job. Sure, I'd have to learn a lot, it would be a hot, tough job, definitely not an 'office job', but I knew how my way around a hot rod, I wasn't afraid of hard work, and I knew how to take care of a customer...so the journey began. We all have to start somewhere. I grew up in a small town, where your word and your name actually meant something. I bring that sense of pride and honor to work every day, something that is sorely lacking in the automotive aftermarket as a whole. I have been a customer (and still am), so I know exactly what they are going through when trying to find information about a turbo system. It can seem very complicated, daunting and probably even a little scary for some. But I take the time to answer all of their questions, with detailed explanations like the posts I have made here. I have spent literally hours at a time on the phone with a customer answering questions. I was on the phone for 45 minutes today with a soldier calling from Iraq.

Every engine family is different, some have forged cranks, but crappy powdered metal rods and cast pistons, but you don't know until you research and find out. They all have different compression ratios. I have to find out what that is before I can determine how much boost can be run on pump gas, or if lower compression pistons must be installed first. But with the power levels we make, all of our customers have fully forged engines to start with anyway.

Some engines have great heads and really fight against detonation, which means you can safely run a little more boost on pump gas. Some engine designs are prone to lifting head gaskets (like the GM Gen III (LS) family). So we have to figure out how to prevent those problems or any others we discover. We talk to other hot rodders, engine builders and tuners.

I am not an engine builder. Sure, I've built a few and never lost one, but that's not what I do on a daily basis. I design and fabricate twin turbo systems and a few other items. So I always send our customers elsewhere to get their engines built. For my personal car, if I'm going to run 1500hp in a street car that will actually see real daily driven miles, I would want it done by a pro, someone who does it every day, knows all the tricks and nuances and is the best at it...I want the same thing for my customers. Let each person focus on what they are good at.

Every auto manufacturer has different types of fuel systems with their own strong and weak points, some are returnless, some are return-style. Some have to be scrapped and replaced with a full return-style at a relatively low hp range, others are good with only pump and injector upgrades to 700hp, but you have to know which is which.

Every auto manufacturers engine management system is different. Some are highly advanced and very flexible for tuning (Ford EECs). Some are very rigid and don't have the flexibility to be programmed correctly for aftermarket modifications (Mopar). Sure, you may be able to modify them, but not in a proper fashion that provides stock driveability (no stalling, hunting idle, missing, bogging, flooding, backfires, etc.) with major hp increases. The GM units fall somewhere in between.

These are all things I have to learn and know so I can accurately design our systems and help customers. I research each new application and start with a clean sheet of paper. If I'm asked a question that I don't know, I would never guess at the answer and let a customer risk his engine/car/money. I would just tell them right up front that I didn't know, but I would find out, and I do. No one can know everything. The key is to know where to go to find the information when you need it.

That's what forums like this are supposed to be for, sharing information, learning, making friends, not flaming every new person that comes on, because they are a default leg-humper (I believe that was your term).

I have been on the net a long time, almost 15 years now, and I have never gotten the rash of crap that I have gotten here. It completely floored me and all over what? Trying to learn new applications? Thats a real crime. Have I been building turbo systems for 20 years? No. Have I done other things in life besides hot rods? Sure.

So I got flamed because I was doing research, 3 years ago. Sure it may have seemed like basic information to you, it seems like basic information to me too, now, but at that point I was doing my homework. I'm not some guy with a MIG welder in his garage, hacking crap together. We are a legitimate company with legitimate products. If you do any research on "Induction Concepts", you will find nothing but praise. All you have to do is look at the pictures of our work and you can see the quality and attention to detail. But of course none of that will show up here. Its not as much fun as flaming and wreaking havoc.

We don't throw stuff together, we are EXTREMELY picky and only use the finest parts and materials available, no short cuts, no compromises. We won't just build a system and then toss it out on the public to start making sales $$$$, we will continue to work on it, revise it, redesign it from scratch when needed, until its perfect. I design this stuff like it was for my personal vehicle and I'm picky. If something comes out of my shop, its something I'm truly proud to have my name on. You won't find a higher quality product anywhere. We use stainless steel for everything, not just the hot side, but also all of the charged air and coolant lines, heat shields and even our bracketry is stainless. We don't do this because we have to, in order to keep up with our competitors (like they do us), we do it because we feel it is the minimum quality standard. No one used stainless when we started, now, more and more every day are switching.

I didn't make the original post in this thread, trying to hock my wares, I was trying to help and educate another enthusiast. I even recommended a supercharger for a specific solution. I didn't come on and say that turbos are the greatest, and everything else sucks, because its not true. Each has its own strong points and weak points. When a customer calls me or emails me and they are only looking for a 400-500hp solution, I will refer them to a supercharger dealer/manufacturer or even one of my competitors in the turbo industry because we don't focus on that power range. It's not an economical choice for them to choose our products for what we consider that low of a power level. Of course if they are building a show vehicle or just really want "twin turbos", we will help them, but we put their best interests first, instead of our financial interests. I know we lose sales because of this philosopy, but we don't lose any sleep at night because we know we have done the right thing.

As for having permission to post here, here is the reply from Jason (this sites owner) when I asked him:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Rad,

Thanks for your emails. I do apologize it has taken some time for me to
reply back to you.

I had the chance to check out your site, it looks like very impressive work.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

and

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

I operate a couple of the H2 forums:

http://www.elcova.com/h2
and
http://www.h2club.org

I see your point regarding just looking for interest and I am fine with you
posting, assuming you do not abuse it. You will likely have the most
success here:

http://www.elcova.com/groupee/forums

Good luck and let me know if you need anything else.

Regards,
Jason Rosoff
http://www.h2source.com
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was worded that way, the part about 'apologizing if it was not allowed' because I had made another post on another site and cut-n-pasted the text to keep from having to rewrite "War and Peace", which is the norm for my posts. I had tried for a couple of weeks to reach the other sites owner (multiple emails, PMs, etc.) but never could get a response...but I did try. So I went ahead and apologized first, in case it was a problem and would have quickly deleted the post if they wanted. So I forgot to delete that line from the post here. Sorry.

Like I said, I've been on the net a long time, in fact I owned an ISP a little over 10 years ago. I'm a good netizen. I participate, ask questions, answer questions, learn, educate and have fun, not just point fingers or try to stir up trouble. Life is too short to waste time on negative stuff like that.

Anyway, sorry to the original poster that his thread got hijacked, I at least hope you got some good information out of it. I think you did get your questions answered. Superchargers are the most popular because they are cheaper and because there are more applications for them, more kits, mainly because they are a simpler system, less cost to develop, etc.

For the record, a proper turbo system can make boost and power about the same spot that a supercharger will, it all depends on the turbo selection and the design of the system. Sure, you can put turbos on it that will have nearly instant boost, but not any whopping power up top. I just don't believe in building a system like that, there is no need when you can get power down low AND all the way to the top.

What I meant about the 2500-3000rpm range was that a properly spec'd system would be making boost by then, not 'starting' to build boost. From the time you press the throttle down, how long does it take to go from a cruising speed of say 1500-2000rpms, up to 2500rpms? What, a half-second? Its not enough time to be concerned with, really. Turbos are pure torque. Mash the pedal, get the power. Most of the talk about 'turbo lag' is a wives tale or stems from improper system design and turbo selection, at least in this day and age.

Sorry for the long post, but when someone is throwing marshmallows at me, claiming they are oranges, I needed to clarify. If it had been some real issue or some actual wrong-doing, don't you think a person that does that kind of thing would have quietly slinked away at the first accusation, hoping it would quietly blow over...

[h2sin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KenP:
The SC can be purchased, installed and warranted by your dealer for under 6k in many instances. I have not seen any single turbo setup for that price WITH a warranty. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why is that?

Reliability issue maybe?

[h2sin]

Land Rover Supercharged, I'm sure you seen the commercials

You can used whatever you want for the oil lines but its the temperature of the oil that I'm worried about

Wastegate can fail just like anything else in your aircrafts or cars, how frequent does it fail.. I dont think anyone can have a real answer to that.

Nothing last forever, everything will need to be replace sooner or later. Turbo system just added that much more to it.

You cant possibly estimate something that you have absolutely no control over, $800 would be the best possible scenario

P.S. If your turbo fails.. I hope you stop driving your car or your aircraft to prevent futher damage

[h2sin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Induction Concepts:
Each of these links mentions water-cooled turbos, just search the page for 'water' and you'll see what they say, they are quite common.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I totally agree

[Induction Concepts]

A comparison between a roots or twin-screw type (Whipple, Kenne Bell, Magnacharger, etc.) supercharger and a turbo version will be very similar in their power and torque curves. They will both make nice torque down low. This type of supercharger will probably make torque just a little bit earlier than the turbo version, but honestly, boost below 2500-3000rpms is not really needed on the street anyway. 2500-3000rpms is about the perfect rpm point for torque to come in.

The main difference will be that these types of superchargers are limited in the maximum amount of power they can make, usually in the 600hp range. We normally deal with the 600-2000hp range, so where they quit, we're just getting started.

That and the fact that all superchargers have parasitic losses, this can range from 75hp to 350+hp depending on how big the supercharger is. What this means is that whether you are in boost or not, you are always burning the gas to turn the supercharger, then, on the other side is the fact that if it wasn't for that parasitic loss, that would be an extra 75 or whatever hp that you could be putting to the ground instead of wasted spinning the supercharger. For instance, on a turbo system that makes 500hp, you will get say 400hp at the tires. On a supercharger system that makes 500hp, you would only put 325 to the tires.

With turbos, you don't have any parasitic losses, so it doesn't cost power to make power, which means better gas mileage as you only burn more gas when you have your foot in it, otherwise it will get the same mileage as stock. Also, all the power the turbos make will go to the tires, none wasted on parasitic losses. There is less strain on the engine with turbos because there is not parasitic losses.

Something else to think about is that superchargers create extra strain on the crankshaft from belt tension. The crankshaft isn't designed for all this extra lateral force from a supercharger belt. Normal accessories (A/C, alternator, power steering, etc.) don't require maximum tension. Supercharger belts have to be very tight to keep from slipping and tossing them off. It also causes pre-mature wear on the front main bearing for this same reason (side loadig the crankshaft snout).

But superchargers are relatively inexpensive and less complex. If you are looking for only a 500hp (or less) solution, then its probably the way to go. If you want more power than that, then turbos are the answer.

Centrifugal superchargers (Paxton, Vortech, ATI/Procharger, etc.) are another animal completely. They don't make maximum power until redline as they are rpm driven, so you have to really push the motor to make power, which is much harder on the engine. They don't make much power down low at all. I wouldn't recommend this type for a street car, a roots or twin-screw is a better choice.

If there was a better way to make power than with turbos, that's what I'd be doing.

Hope this helps.

[LasVegas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by h2sin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LasVegas:
Guess you didn't understand. A pilot does a routine preflight inspection before every flight. There's a checklist for every aircraft. He's not inspecting the aircraft for maintenance purposes but to determine that there are no deficiencies and that the aircraft is airworthy. Not to turn the wiggit on top of the turbocharger. And it wouldn't matter whether it was turbocharged, supercharged or BScharged. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im not going to beat this one to death but an inspection exist for a purpose.. does your H2 require a safety inspection before you drive it to the grocery store </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh come on. You're rediculous. I'm trying to be nice here and explain some things way over your head. If you don't see the difference, well, no reason to go further.

[h2sin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fastest H-Town Realtor: Turbo lag has nothing to do with overall output, and is more about system design and turbo sizing, along with vehicle weight and gearing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMAO you going to run custom spec turbo and gears on your stock H2 running at 8PSI?

[Fastest H-Town Realtor]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by h2sin: why go thru the trouble of installing a turbo when you can get the exact same result using a SC with less hassle </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One question. Explain "same exact result" on a turbo vs. blower install, both systems making 8 PSI.

Specificly-Blowers use HP from the engine to drive the belt assembly, turbos do not.

As far as the "less hassle" statement, Im going to have to assume that you have never installed either kit. Both kits are 8 hour jobs. Both kits have challenges. The easability nod, for me, goes to the turbo kit due to the lack of pulling the intake manifold and its assorted lines/fittings/fluids.