Any 1911 fans on the board?

[Bondage]

BTW, I found actual video of Toadie displaying his firearm prowess...


Sean

[Toadies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Beastmaster:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Toadies:
Indeed. Nothing like having your pistol blow up in time of need.

Most LE are forced by departments to carry those ****ty pieces because Mr.Glock sucks major LE cawk. They practically give them to departments compared to Kimbers, HKs, Sigs, etc.

I wouldn't use one for a doorstop. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, these are the primary reasons why Glocks have won out over the years versus any other major manufacturer:

1) Weight. My duty belt (with a Colt Double Eagle, of all things!) had the DE, Surefire, two handcuffs, 4 magazines, stun gun, and ASP. Taking a few ounces off helps the duty officer. (I also had a S&W 945 in a belly band holster off of my body armor). That's a lot of stuff to haul around.

2) Ammo count. The S&W 39 and 59's (made famous by the Illinois State Police when they went to it in 1968) started the trend of high capacity duty carry. Glock's G17 with 16+1 perpetuated that even further. Add the gangbanger FUD (Fear/Uncertainty/Doubt), and you've got something there.

One patrol officer I used to know had a G21 with 4 spare magazines. He used to give me crap (since I only had Wilson 8 rounders x4 spares with me) all the time. He fell into the FUD....hook, line and sinker.

If I really need that much firepower, out came my FN/FAL. Screw the .45, screw the AR-15 or the Ruger Mini-14 or the Remington 870 with slugs- give me .308 with the FAL.

3) Perceived Durability. When I was going through Instructor training, there was a rather hilarious video about how this one southern state Sheriff's office did their Glock "testing". I now wish I kept or made a copy of it. It shows the G17 getting tortured by:
- Multiple Helicopter Drops
- Mud dunk
- Run over by a patrol car
- Thrown onto a brick wall
- and some other stuff I don't remember.

What was hilarious about the video was that the lead tester (who might have been the elected Sheriff too), took the G17 after each torture test, loaded it, shot off all the rounds in the magazine in a really haphazard fashion, then tossed it onto the nearest flat surface (most of the time which was the concrete floor.). He eventually knocked off the front sight.

Well, that video helped sell Glocks. Many departments, stung by the failures of many various shotguns other than the Remington 870, saw this video as the ultimate torture test.

What also helped was that the same G17 that was beaten up by that backwater department made its rounds to other departments....and beaten up even more.

And with realism - how many officers really keep their duty pistols clean? I still clean mine every month if they are unused, and after each use when I take them on the range. But I've been drilled so many times on the aphorism "a clean gun is a happy gun" that all of my firearms are happy. Police departments look at reliability - will the pistol fire when you pull the trigger and if it's abused like most officers abuse their pistols?

4) Armorer's school....or the simplicity of it. Take one punch bought at Sears, and you can fix most stuff (short of sights) with a Glock. Win over the hearts of the poor souls that have to fix the pistols that get abused by the officers that don't take care of them, and you get good reports back up the chain of command.

5) Finally, it comes down to training. When Glock came out of the shadow, many departments still used revolvers. Glock was the first manufacturer who could prove to training departments that the overall basics of firearms training remained the same, and that you needed to just teach the issues/differences of loading/unloading and clearing jams. No external safeties, no other niggling issues, just teach the same basics (which are the same basics no matter which pistol you use, really), and add the esoterics of magazine handling.

This is where Glock won out. This is where Glock continues to win - convincing the departments of the last two items are cost savings. This is how Glock has won 60% of the Police Departments and the FBI. I'm not saying it's right, but with a decent product and excellent marketing - they really did a number on the competition. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lies and Frapications.

Most LEs are not gun enthusiasts and therefore could care less about their carry. Hence giving them a lighter weapon with plenty of "pray and spray" potential. Any ability to use the weapon adequately are backseat to the primary objective that is making sure Barney Fife doesn't blow his foot off just like the monkey DEA agent on that video. But you see the biggest safety hazard for a weapon is a LE type who sucks at self preservation and WILL NOT invest time and effort let alone the fact that a majority of departments are tighter than a 10yr old chinese twat. They will not spend the funds to give their officers the best weapons and training let alone give their officers a fine quality weapon like a Sig, Kimber, Wilson, etc. It is simply easier to pay out the life insurance policy when Joe Law fails at his chosen occupation in life.

LE officers PWND by taxpayers and Gastons tupperware guns.

[h2co-pilot]

Humtranny = Cahootananny

[Efrain]

Okay, so how many trolls are running loose in here? I'm starting to lose count

[Toadies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mr. I - Man:
Actually Paragon and I are former Jarheads. I was in for about 8.5 years with extensive M.O.U.T. and C.Q.B. Training also a Water Survival Instructor and 300 PFT consistantly. So I know just a little. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am ex Delta Force, ex Seal, ex OSI.. you two are just jarhead turds.

.45 as a backup weapon??? you and Paragon need to lay off the dope.

[ree]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ssgharkness020147
...Are there any good 1911 boards out there? Any guidence would be appreciated. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Carey,
I can't offer any advice on various 1911s. I've only shot a few brands and don't actually own any, but here's another board:

http://www.thefiringline.com

it's not 1911 specific, but there's a lot of knowledgable people there.

Just ignore Toadies. He's just looking for attention. There are irrational guy's like this everywhere. Any gun'll go kaboom for a number of reasons. I primarily shoot a polymer SigPro chambered in 357sig. So it's a pretty hot round (40,000psi and up) and I've never had fail to feed or eject problems, let alone a kaboom (not that it couldn't). Funny why a polymer frame would be the cause of a kaboom in the chamber. It's not like the barrel, slide, or receiver is made of plastic. I suppose Toaddie will now poo poo my choice of ammo because it's smaller than .45 inches in diameter or has a bullet weight under 200grains.

[Mr. I - Man]

.45 230 grain. You better be a good defilade shot for anything over 25 yards, because thats going to have a lot of bullet drop. So your well placed chest shot is going to be a knee cap at range. I take it you never had to use a weapon in a real world situation. And real world does not mean shooting at stray dogs in your trailer park.

Looks like we have weapons troll now boys!

Season is open fire at will!!

[BlueTJCO]

SIG SAUER>>>>>>>>

[ssgharkness020147]

I appreciate all the advise guys. I found a gun shop close by that is a Wilson dealer, I plan to go down there this week and demo a gun or two. So far (despite the STEEP price tag) I really like the Wilson Tactical Elite. All and all that would fit me and what I would like to go in to. I checked out that IDPA league Steve, I appeciate the tip, it looks like a blast and is exactly what I would really like to get in to. Thankfully there is also a gun club 5 minutes away that has IDPA too.

How many of you guys carry a gun in your truck? Here in WI the way the laws sit I can have a gun in the truck if its in a case and unloaded (a loaded clip can be right next to the gun though). With all my trips down to Milwaukee and the bad experiences down there I have come to the conclusion that it would be in my best intrests to have protection of some kind for my trips down there. I dont feel that pepper spray would be effective in most situations, the same goes for a stun gun. A tazer could help sometimes, but not always. Though I wonder with the way the laws sit here if my having some protection would even be worth it, and I do not and will not do anything that it not legally allowed. What do you guys think, is it worth having a gun in the truck if it has to be in a case and cannot be loaded while stored?

[Petey]

Actually Toadies is right all trolling aside. The 9mm Baretta has selected more for us to be in compliance with NATO for interchangability than the fact that it was a superior round.

Read and be informed.

http://www.sightm1911.com/M1911vsM9.htm

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> In 1985, the United States Armed Forces replaced the M1911 with the Beretta 92 F to the everlasting consternation of 1911 devotees everywhere. There were several reasons for the switch. The U.S. was the only NATO country not using a 9mm as the standard issue sidearm and there was a desire to issue a pistol chambered for the ubiquitous 9mm for logistical reasons. The Beretta will hold 15 rounds in its magazine as compared with 7 rounds of the military issue 1911 magazine and is lighter and easier to field strip than the 1911. The double action/single action Beretta was perceived as being a safer pistol to carry in a state of readiness than the "cocked and locked" 1911. In some quarters, the .45 ACP was viewed as too powerful and difficult to control for those having only nominal training with the weapon.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[PARAGON]

Meh

[Humgirl&guy]

near toronto ontario

[Beastmaster]

No. He's not the type to be scared off. He gathers information and waits patiently.

[Bondage]

Okay, Beastmaster, I know the vid you are talking about and I've seen it. It is an outstanding testament to the durability of that design and build. HOWEVER........

We don't usually drop our pistols out of choppers. We DO (or at least a friend of mine DID) tuck his Glock between the mattress and box springs of his bed. He came home one day and found that his dog had literally EATEN THE DAMN FRAME!!! It was about the funniest f()ckin' thing I'd ever seen. The dog had popped the mag and chewed it up pretty well, but the frame was basically GONE! You'll not see a photo of this or a video though. He took it in to the gunshop, they contacted Glock, and Glock had the weapon shipped immediately back to them and they replaced the frame - for FREE! That was one pic I don't think they wanted floating around.

The moral of the story is this - get a goddam Nylabone for your dog and keep your Glock high and dry when you're not around!


Sean

ps - Again, I agree 110% - muscle memory, developed through repetition, IS the key. I am right handed and left eye dominant, so I "cross shoot." My shooting stance is therefor a little unique, but when my bicep hits my cheekbone, the sights are ON! It makes shooting a sidearm more like shooting a rifle! A little weird, yeah, but a LOT effective.

[Petey]

I WIN!!!!1

[Andy C]

Interesting thread - all I want to know is this - all you guys spouting off about distances and trajectorys and dependability and ease of use and guns blowing up in your hands when they are needed most - have any of you actually ever been involved in a CIVILLIAN situation where you actually needed to pull and fire a weapon.

Just out of interest.

I have fired hundreds of rounds through my Ruger P90 and it never blew up on me - what are the chances of this happening on the one occassion that I might possibly need to use it in anger - pretty slim I would imagine.

Any gun is only as effective as the person behind it.

[Toadies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Toadies:
Most people can't shoot so sure give em a 9mm pussy gun. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>We're on the same page, Bond.

Toadshiit, the US Armed Forces converted use from the .45 cal to the 9mm because of the range issue. As I understand things now, all Berettas are being worked out of service and replaced with SIG 229R DAK .40 cals because of the compromise of down-range energy and accuracy.

Storydud, you can't win an argument if the facts were written for you. Certainly you can't talk about guns or wheeling. Give it a rest, storyhut. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong again wannabe warrior. We "converted" to 9mm more for NATO compliance which is not really an issue anymore since we ARE NATO.

And yes we are going back to .40 or in some cases .357sig to get back to the performance of the venerable .45ACP. Deny it, pretend it's not the truth, I don't care. I will carry it and blow your dumbass away with one round to your three.

Get your facts straight pretend Marine.

[Beastmaster]

Hmm..the Glock Kaboom! FAQ. Wow.

With the octagonal rifled barrel (on at least the .45's), along with the feed ramp setups on a stock Glock barrel, you should always use SAAMI spec factory ammo with new brass.

With that being said, my Glock 30, my Glock 21, and my wife's Glock 23 all have had many rounds of ammo through it (my 21's had nearly 10k rounds, my 30 about 3000, and my wife's 23 about 2500), with zero issues.

From a liability issue, my recommendation is to always keep ammo in it that a local law enforcement agency uses. All of my .45's use 185gr +P Winchester (which is what the County and State uses in their .45's), and the wife's uses the same Speer Gold Dot that the local police department uses in their Glock 22's and 23's.

As for more ammo the better - there is a reason why Massad Ayoob loves the Beretta 92F with the 20 round extended magazine filled with 115gr +P+....you never know when you need that many rounds, and in an extensive firefight, reloading may not be an option. That's why my wife's Glock 23 (when it's in her side of the nightstand safe) has the Glock 22 magazine in it.

Back to the question at hand, which is M1911 related - Once you pick a pistol, shoot with it over and over and over again. Get snap caps and practice holster draws, trigger pulls, sighting, hand placements. Do clearance drills over, and over and over again. Get it to where it's going to fit in your hand the same way every time, all the time.

I will say one thing. I've carried an M1911 for years. Trained with it, taught others how to use it, and it's unique compared to other pistols. You must be willing to carry in Condition 1 at all times.

Also be aware that there is some minor additional training and mind sets needed to carry in Condtion 1.

A great case in point is Low Ready/High Ready drills (and I'm talking competition shooting, not self defense). Low Ready, thumb safety on, high ready, thumb safety off. Drill that into your head over, and over, and over, combine that with practice draws, over, and over, and over.....

You don't have to worry about that with a Glock....your trigger finger along the frame is your safety mechanism.

The other thing would be this....and it's about personal preferences. You might not like the Wilson CQB (although I can't see why not) or any of the other ones. Despite the fact that I love my Wilson, I end up carrying my Gunsite modded stainless Combat Commander much more often (and shoot with it more as well) than I do the Wilson. Why? I can't say. I just do.

And I paid (with mods) far less for the Combat Commander than I did the Wilson, even though both have similar mods and tweaks...some by me, some by professional gunsmiths.

So, be careful about spending a ton on a pistol that you actually might not like.

[Klaus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Toadies:
The best round bar none is a .45 230 grain hollowpoint in +P </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You might want to do more research on the .357 Magnum with 125 grain hollowpoint ammo before you make a blanket statement like this.

[PARAGON]

<Table><TBODY>



</P>
<H4 align=center><FONT face=Helvetica,Bold,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif>Law
Enforcement Officers Feloniously Killed in the Line of Duty with Firearms
1993-2002 </FONT></H4><TR>
<TH width="28%" height=40><FONT
face=TimesNewRoman,Bold,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif>Size of</FONT><FONT
face=TimesNewRoman,Bold,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif> Ammunition</FONT></TH>
<TH width="22%"><FONT
face=TimesNewRoman,Bold,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif>Total</FONT><FONT
face=TimesNewRoman,Bold,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif> Slain</FONT></TH>
<TH width="29%"><FONT
face=TimesNewRoman,Bold,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif>While Wearing
</FONT><FONT face=TimesNewRoman,Bold,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif>Body
Armor</FONT></TH>
<TH width="21%"><FONT face=TimesNewRoman,Bold,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif>With
Own </FONT><FONT
face=TimesNewRoman,Bold,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif>Weapon</FONT></TH></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="28%"><FONT face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">.22
caliber</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="22%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">28</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="29%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">9</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">2</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="28%"><FONT face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">.25
caliber</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="22%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">18</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="29%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">11</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">1</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="28%"><FONT face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">.32
caliber</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="22%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">9</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="29%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">6</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">0</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="28%"><FONT face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">.32-20
caliber</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="22%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">1</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="29%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">0</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">0</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="28%"><FONT face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">.357
magnum</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="22%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">30</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="29%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">19</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">5</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="28%"><FONT face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">.38
caliber</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="22%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">65</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="29%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">28</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">5</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="28%"><FONT face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">.380
caliber</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="22%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">43</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="29%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">24</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">0</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="28%"><FONT face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">.40
caliber</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="22%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">34</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="29%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">24</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">11</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="28%"><FONT face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">.41
magnum</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="22%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">1</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="29%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">1</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">0</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="28%"><FONT face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">.44
magnum</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="22%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">11</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="29%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">7</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">1</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="28%"><FONT face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">.45
caliber</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="22%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">36</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="29%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">24</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">5</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="28%"><FONT face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">.455
caliber</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="22%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">1</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="29%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">1</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">0</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="28%"><FONT face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">.50
caliber</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="22%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">1</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="29%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">1</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">0</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="28%"><FONT face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">7.62x25
millimeter</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="22%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">1</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="29%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">1</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">0</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="28%"><FONT face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">9
millimeter</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="22%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">136</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="29%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">65</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">14</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="28%"><FONT face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">9x18
millimeter</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="22%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">1</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="29%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">1</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">0</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="28%"><FONT face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">10
millimeter</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="22%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">2</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="29%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">0</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">1</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="28%"><FONT face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">Size not
reported</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="22%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">25</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="29%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">10</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">0</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="28%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">Total</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="22%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">443</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="29%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">232</FONT></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%"><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">45</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<DIV align=center></DIV>


<FONT face=Helvetica,Italic,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif size=2>Source: U.S.
Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, </FONT><FONT
face=Helvetica,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif size=2>Law Enforcement Officers Killed
and Assaulted, 2002</FONT><FONT
face=Helvetica,Italic,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif size=2> (Washington, DC,
2003).</FONT> </P>
<H4 align=center><FONT
face=Helvetica,Bold,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif>Offenders Justifiably Killed or
Committed Suicide</FONT> <FONT
face=Helvetica,Bold,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif>1991-2000</FONT></H4>
<DIV align=center>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="52%"
summary="This table lists offenders justifiably killed or committed suicide 1991 - 2000"
border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TH width="17%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face=TimesNewRoman,Bold,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif>Year</FONT></DIV></TH>
<TH width="36%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face=TimesNewRoman,Bold,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif>Justifiably Killed
</FONT><FONT face=TimesNewRoman,Bold,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif>by Victim
Officer</FONT></DIV></TH>
<TH width="26%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face=TimesNewRoman,Bold,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif>Justifiably Killed
</FONT><FONT face=TimesNewRoman,Bold,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif>by Other
Than Victim</FONT></DIV></TH>
<TH width="21%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face=TimesNewRoman,Bold,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif>Committed </FONT><FONT
face=TimesNewRoman,Bold,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif>Suicide</FONT></DIV></TH></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle width="17%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">1991</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD width="36%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">2</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD align=right width="26%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">6</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">5</FONT></DIV></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle width="17%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">1992</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD width="36%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">3</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD align=right width="26%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">6</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">5</FONT></DIV></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle width="17%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">1993</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD width="36%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">2</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD align=right width="26%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">7</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">6</FONT></DIV></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle width="17%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">1994</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD width="36%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">4</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD align=right width="26%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">12</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">9</FONT></DIV></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle width="17%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">1995</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD width="36%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">4</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD align=right width="26%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">5</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">8</FONT></DIV></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle width="17%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">1996</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD width="36%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">1</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD align=right width="26%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">14</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">3</FONT></DIV></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle width="17%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">1997</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD width="36%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">2</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD align=right width="26%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">6</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">12</FONT></DIV></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle width="17%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">1998</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD width="36%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">2</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD align=right width="26%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">11</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">4</FONT></DIV></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle width="17%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">1999</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD width="36%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">0</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD align=right width="26%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">5</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">5</FONT></DIV></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle width="17%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">2000</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD width="36%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">3</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD align=right width="26%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">6</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">5</FONT></DIV></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="17%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">Total</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD width="36%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">23</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD align=right width="26%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">78</FONT></DIV></TD>
<TD align=right width="21%">
<DIV align=center><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">62</FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV>


<FONT face=Helvetica,Italic,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif size=2>Source:
Compiled by members of the FBI’s Criminal Justice Information Services Division
with data from U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of
Investigation,</FONT> <FONT face=Helvetica,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif
size=2>Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted, 2002</FONT><FONT
face=Helvetica,Italic,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif size=2> (Washington, DC, 2003).
</FONT></P>
<P align=left> </P>
<H3 align=left><FONT face=TimesNewRoman,Bold,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif>THE
TRAINING </FONT></H3>
<P align=left><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">A firm understanding of what an
officer possibly may expect if shot or severely injured during a violent
confrontation with an adversary remains crucial. This includes heightening an
officer’s aware ness about establishing a survival mind-set and practical
measures to combat reactions </FONT><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">to extreme stress concerning
natural physiological, psychological, and emotional responses that occur in
normal people during abnormal situations. Such training is imperative in
</FONT><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Italic,Times New Roman,Times,serif">conquering</FONT><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif"> survival versus
</FONT><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Italic,Times New Roman,Times,serif">succumbing</FONT><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif"> to an otherwise treatable,
recoverable injury. </FONT></P>
<H3><FONT face=TimesNewRoman,Bold,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif>Survival
Training </FONT></H3>


<FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">Effective survival training
should provide a clear under standing of how authorized weapons and ammunition
likely will perform under varying conditions to 1) strengthen officer confidence
in personal skills with equipment and 2) prepare officers to efficiently and
quickly incapacitate/control a threat against life. First and foremost, officers
should possess a working knowledge about terminal ballistic performance of
bullets when fired through intervening obstacles that they, by necessity, may
have to shoot through and penetrate to incapacitate a violent adversary. Some
common intervening obstacles encountered in law enforcement shootings can
include heavy clothing; building materials, such as wood and drywall; automobile
windshield glass; and sheet metal used in vehicle doors. Such obstacles may
alter terminal projectile performance (i.e., the medium may plug or </FONT><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">close the hollow point of a
bullet, making it perform as a ball round or become deformed and, thus, limit
penetration). </FONT></P>


<FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">Officers also should know about
ammunition performance at different, reasonable distances. Such training
promotes greater understanding of agency policy when applied to different
situations encountered in daily work experiences (i.e., when it is reasonable to
shoot, not shoot, or seek alternate methods of self-preservation). Agencies
using firearm ranges of 25 yards or fewer may consider options of periodically
shooting at reduced-size targets, simulating a longer-distance handgun shot.
</FONT></P>


<FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">Finally, officers should
possess a basic understanding of the human anatomy and related system functions
from a three-dimensional perspective. Training should visually convey the
placement and vulnerabilities of the cardiovascular system (heart, lungs, and
blood-bearing organs) and the central nervous system (brain and upper spinal
column). Knowledge of how these human systems likely will respond to
low-velocity projectiles, such as from most hand guns, and high-velocity ones,
such as from high-powered rifles, will augment officer awareness that reactions
to being shot may not occur immediately. Perhaps more important, this
information can help </FONT><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">prevent officers from forming a
false assumption or preconceived expectation that the adversary </FONT><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Italic,Times New Roman,Times,serif">will be</FONT><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif"> rendered immediately harmless
following a well-placed shot from their firearm. </FONT></P>
<P align=center>[img]oct04lebx21x1.jpg[/img] </P>
<H3 align=left><FONT
face=TimesNewRoman,Bold,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif>Firearms Training
</FONT></H3>
<P align=left><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">Well-rounded firearms training
programs should include instruction and courses of fire emphasizing fundamentals
of marksmanship and position shooting. However, from a survival aspect,
additional training points require consideration. Examples include alternate
courses of fire that possess phases unfamiliar to the officer, as well as a
preset number of fired rounds, such as routinely employed in qualification
courses and largely gathered for the purpose of establishing a “standard” of
proficiency if needed in litigation. Alternate </FONT><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">courses of fire (e.g.,
specialized combat courses), by design, should reinforce desirable behaviors and
thought processes. Combat courses should necessitate officers shooting until
they incapacitate the threat (target) or the threat ceases. This can help
</FONT><FONT face="TimesNewRoman,Italic,Times New Roman,Times,serif">prevent,
rather than encourage</FONT><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">, psychological reinforcement
and presumption that the threat will desist after firing a given number of
rounds. If lethal force is warranted and appropriate under the circumstances,
the officer </FONT><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Italic,Times New Roman,Times,serif">must shoot until the
threat ceases</FONT><FONT face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">.
Use of cardboard or paper targets, although economical, inherently forces
personnel to perceive bullet impacts on a single plane of reference with out
dimension—much different from a human simulation with dimension and placement of
organs/skeletal structure of a body. An occasional mix of training on a
three-dimensional target, such as clothed mannequins, preformed targets, and
other devices limited only by imagination, may better demonstrate and encourage
personnel to exercise critical-thinking skills for delivering optimal shot
placement and effective ness. An example is a shooting scenario requiring
accurate shot placement on a three-dimensional target at an adverse angle
substantially different from the usual 90-degree target </FONT><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">placement in many training
scenarios due to range design, safety, and economy of training resource time.
</FONT></P>


<FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">Economical, three-dimensional
reaction targets made of cardboard to resemble a torso are available. These
targets, suspended by heavy string or cord to one or two inflated balloons
inside the body of the device, can become lifelike by placing old clothing, such
as a shirt or jacket, on the exterior. When one or both of the bal loons are
struck by a bullet, the balloon pops and the target drops from its suspended
position. Such an exercise emphasizes that the officer must aim at a distinct
spot on the torso to achieve incapacitation, rather than merely shooting at the
entire target. </FONT></P>


<FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">New technology incorporated
into training simulators portraying lifelike, real-time scenarios permits course
designers to define the zones of immediate or quick incapacitation similar to
the relative area on a human body. Additionally, designers can denote zones of
incapacitation based on the angle and distance of the adversary from the
officer, as well as scenarios representing body armor worn by the adversary.
</FONT></P>
<H3 align=left><FONT
face=TimesNewRoman,Bold,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif>CONCLUSION </FONT></H3>
<P align=left><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">Just as in the days of the
American Old West when only </FONT><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">the peace officers’ superb
gun-handling abilities stood between them and the violent outlaws of their time,
today’s law enforcement professionals still must rely on their firearm skills to
protect their communities from similar lawlessness. Employing deadly force
against another human being is not an easy choice, nor should it be. </FONT></P>
<P align=left><FONT face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">However,
when an individual is intent on causing grave bodily injury, even death, to
officers sworn to uphold this nation’s laws, those officers must react
responsibly and quickly to protect their communities and to avoid the loss of
innocent lives, as well as their own. </FONT></P>
<P align=left><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">The perpetuation of the
one-shot drop by movies and television programs has no place in the real world
of violent criminals bent on their destructive missions. Officers must realize
</FONT><FONT face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif">that they have to
continually hone their survival skills, always expect the unexpected, and never
give up; they must protect themselves to protect their communities. </FONT></P>
<H3 align=left><FONT face=TimesNewRoman,Bold,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif
size=2>Endnotes </FONT></H3>
<P align=left><SUP><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif" size=2>1</FONT></SUP><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif" size=2> The FBI hosts four
10-week sessions each year during which law enforcement executives from around
the world come together to attend classes in various criminal justice subjects.
</FONT></P>
<P align=left><SUP><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif" size=2>2</FONT></SUP><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif" size=2> “Physiologically, a
determined adversary can be stopped reliably and immediately only by a shot that
disrupts the brain or upper spinal cord. Failing to hit the center nervous
system, massive bleeding from holes in the heart, or major blood vessels of the
torso causing circulatory collapse is the only way to force incapacitation upon
an adversary, and this takes time. For example, there is sufficient oxygen
within the brain to support full, voluntary action for 10 to 15 seconds after
the heart has been destroyed.” See U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of
Investigation, Firearms Training Unit, FBI Academy, </FONT><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Italic,Times New Roman,Times,serif" size=2>Handgun Wounding
Factors and Effectiveness</FONT><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif" size=2> (Quantico, VA, July 14,
1989), 8.</FONT> </P>
<P align=left><SUP><FONT face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif"
size=2>3</FONT></SUP><FONT face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif"
size=2> Ibid. </FONT></P>
<P align=left><SUP><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif" size=2>4</FONT></SUP><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif" size=2> U.S. Department of
Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, </FONT><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Italic,Times New Roman,Times,serif" size=2>Law Enforcement
Officers Killed and Assaulted, 2002 </FONT><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif" size=2>(Washington, DC, 2003).
</FONT></P>
<P align=left><SUP><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif" size=2>5</FONT></SUP><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif" size=2> Members of the FBI’s
Criminal Justice Information Services Division collected and supplied this
information to the authors for this article. </FONT></P>
<P align=left><SUP><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif" size=2>6</FONT></SUP><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif" size=2> U.S. Department of
Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, </FONT><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Italic,Times New Roman,Times,serif" size=2>Killed in the
Line of Duty</FONT><FONT face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif"
size=2> (Washington, DC, 1992); and, U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau
of Investigation, National Institute of Justice, </FONT><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Italic,Times New Roman,Times,serif" size=2>In The Line of
Fire: Violence Against Law Enforcement</FONT><FONT
face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif" size=2> (Washington, DC, 1997).
</FONT></P>
<P align=left><SUP><FONT face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif"
size=2>7</FONT></SUP><FONT face="TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman,Times,serif"
size=2> Supra note 4, 44. </FONT></P></Table>