Protection vs Performance

[h2co-pilot]

Originally posted by Sean K.:


***EDIT*** Weird. Words like cockfag are not filtered on this site but the "F" word is?

Sean

F<span class="ev_code_BLACK">uck</span> yeah, <span class="ev_code_BLACK">f</span>uck is bad. Cockfag however, is a mandatory word for you Zonies, we didn't want you to feel awkward.

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by h2co-pilot:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sean K.:


***EDIT*** Weird. Words like cockfag are not filtered on this site but the "F" word is?

Sean

F<span class="ev_code_BLACK">uck</span> yeah, <span class="ev_code_BLACK">f</span>uck is bad. Cockfag however, is a mandatory word for you Zonies, we didn't want you to feel awkward. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Okay, what's the secret? How'd you post it? I use the word **** in almost every sentence (that I actually speak)....sorry, I have a potty mouth.

***EDIT*** figured it out.

F<span class="ev_code_BLACK">uck</span>

[HummerNewbie]

Originally posted by Sean K.:


***EDIT*** figured it out.

F<span class="ev_code_BLACK">uck</span>

S<span class="ev_code_BLACK">hit</span> yeah you did

"Protection vs. Performance", sounds like the new slogan for a condom commercial.

S.

[f5fstop]

Originally posted by Sean K.:
As for overheating with a skid pan.....How do you guys that are saying that come to that conclusion? What exactly are you overheating? It certainly isn't going to be the engine. Yes, you may heat up the floor boards and any wiring in the covered area more (especially if the catalytic converter is housed between the floor and skid), but it's highly unlikely that there's anything that will be damaged by the relatively minor increase in temperature....and that includes the transmission and tcase. Again, easy test if we can find a few volunteers....one equipped with no skid and one with a skid in the same local area. That is, if you guys really wanna know for sure instead of merely speculating about something with which you have no experience.

Overheated trans fluid is one of the biggest killers of an auto trans. In addition, the pan itself is used as a cooling medium (finned pans increase cooling efficiency). The damage to the trans, due to overheated fluid, will not be done in a few thousand miles, it will be done in 20-30K miles. The fluid will degrade over a period of time, causing internal trans failures.

Trans fluid has a frictional coefficient designed into it, that is why there are so many different trans fluids on the market. Heat, is one of the major factors in deterioration of trans fluid. Heat, over a period of time causes the frictional coefficient of the trans fluid to change, in the case of the 4L transmissions used on GM vehicles, it cause the fluid to become more slippery. The lower frictional coefficient will cause clutches to slip, and this initial slippage will not be that noticeable, since it is happening slowly over a period of time.

Heat also causes the viscosity to change as it does with engine oil. The designed life of trans fluid is calculated on the maximum temps the trans will be normally run, that is one reason why many vehicles required a fluid change on vehicles that are not run at high speed (taxi cabs, police cars, delivery vehicles, etc.). Running a vehicle at low speeds does not create enough airflow past the pan and the trans itself. (Same with an external trans fluid cooler.)

Therefore, the easy test of a few days travel will prove nothing, other than the trans fluid is or is not running hotter than normal. Pretty sure I can save your trouble, since enclosing the trans in a shield will cause it to run hotter, due to the trans heat itself not escaping, and adding the heat buildup from the cat.

I would recommend to anyone adding a full underbody shield to at least change their trans fluid every 10-15K. In fact, I would recommend a full trans fluid flush. A normal trans fluid change only replaces the fluid in the pan, the remainder of the old trans fluid is still in the passages, clutches and servos of the trans. In fact, on the 4L70 trans used on the H3, the pan will contain 5 quarts of fluid, the remainder of the trans hold an additional 6 quarts of fluid. Therefore, a fluid and fill is the only way to replace all the damaged fluid.

At this time, the trans engineers at GM I know would never recommend a full body undershield, unless it is bolted on for minimum use during severe off-road driving. That is probably the reason GM Accessory parts sells only the ladder type, since it is assumed most will leave the underbody protection on all the time.

[ketcat]

f5f

Thanks for the straight scoop. I'm sticking with the UPC, it works for me.

[NEOCON1]

Originally posted by ketcat:
f5f

Thanks for the straight scoop. I'm sticking with the UPC, it works for me.

X2

[nmikes]

X3

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Sean K.:
That particular comment was really in response to, "we put 7,500lbs on a ladder-type UCP and drag it across a pointed rock with no problems."

What I meant was on the trails I've run, (and hopefully many H3s will begin running as modifications permit), it would be happening quite frequently with a ladder type support. Someone mentioned earlier about picking good lines and tire placement.....true in a perfect world, you can pick your way through and the holes in the undercarriage will be a non-issue.....but Murphy and that f<span class="ev_code_BLACK">uck</span>ed up law of his always seems to show up at the worst possible time and a tire slips off line and then you're stuck. Know what I mean?

Does the H3 forum just draw the dumbasses out out of the woodwork or what?

So, on the trails you run, rocks are somehow worse than any others that anybody else does. They just are soooo badass that you would have problems frequently if you had a ladder type UCP, huh? ****ing idiot.

[CampMaster]

X4

[nmikes]

Also just wondering, does the H3 have an oil cooler for the transmission, of not would this be worth looking into? And is a triple lock torque converter a bit overkill for the transmission seeing on how its only having to deal with a 220 hp engine, even if you do bolt on another 1500 lbs of offroading gear?

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sean K.:
That particular comment was really in response to, "we put 7,500lbs on a ladder-type UCP and drag it across a pointed rock with no problems."

What I meant was on the trails I've run, (and hopefully many H3s will begin running as modifications permit), it would be happening quite frequently with a ladder type support. Someone mentioned earlier about picking good lines and tire placement.....true in a perfect world, you can pick your way through and the holes in the undercarriage will be a non-issue.....but Murphy and that f<span class="ev_code_BLACK">uck</span>ed up law of his always seems to show up at the worst possible time and a tire slips off line and then you're stuck. Know what I mean?

Does the H3 forum just draw the dumbasses out out of the woodwork or what?

So, on the trails you run, rocks are somehow worse than any others that anybody else does. They just are soooo badass that you would have problems frequently if you had a ladder type UCP, huh? ****ing idiot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Paragon,

Wow, you're a pleasant individual. Anywho....are you the guy from Pirate or not? Just curious, as if it was you (search is down) you weren't a jerk there. Again, if it is you....must be that you're at "home" here so you think you can be an internet bully. That's cool. Not everyone's gonna get along I guess.

If you doubt what I've said, bring your UCP equipped H3 (I have no idea what sort of Hummer you have....perhaps it's an H2 or H1; doesn't really matter)....to AZ and we'll run some trails and you can see for yourself what I mean. (I figure you'll probably say it's too far....perfectly good excuse).

***EDIT*** Here's an example of trails we run in AZ and while it may not be the best example of what we're talking about.....I'm sure you can get a feel for the kind of wheeling.



It may or may not work....I don't think Pirate will allow direct linking so you may have to copy and paste. *****

I'm just here to get other people involved in 4 wheeling and to have a good time and meet people. If my comments and experience are not welcome or wanted...fine, I'll leave.

f5fstop,

You make a very valid point especially concerning autos.....however, none of you have actually run a full belly pan, correct? I know several people running them on everything from small SUVs, to buggies to fullsizes....yes, heat builds up more at slow speed without air flow....

What I'm saying is: it's not significant enough to cause a transmission failure, IME. As you eloquently stated: transmission fluid and oils both have ranges of acceptable operating temperature. Unless we did a real test to find out just what the temps are running without a full belly skid and then with....how can ANYONE say for certain it will raise the temperature above the acceptable range? The obvious answer is: you can't. That is just my opinion though and you guys are welcome to your own (not that you need my permission).

I apologize if I ruffled any feathers with my comments. That was not my intent. I was only trying to give my own personal experience with belly pans as well as some general comments about lift height vs. CoG.

Take care,
Sean

[Kevin B]

Sean, I have been to Mesa with my wife twice. Once to a wedding and again to visit relatives. Where do you guys ride out there?

[Sean K.]

We run several different areas within an hour to 2 hr. drive from Mesa.

We go to the Florence Junction area....trails like Highway to Hell, Elvis, Upper and Lower Woodpecker, Martinez Canyon, Axle Alley, Overdose, Bad Medicine, Upper Ajax, Woody's Wash, Miner's Revenge, etc.

We go down to some private land in the Oracle area too.

We head to Table Mesa for trails like Matrix, Anaconda, Upper and Lower Terminator, Die Hard, Judgement Day, Annihilator, Armageddon (before it was closed), Predator, Collateral Damage, and Twister.

There's some new areas up past Black Canyon City that are really extreme....Bumble Bee area. I haven't been....my old wheeling rig wasn't set up for that extreme of wheeling. I was only running D44 axles....1 Ton running gear is mandatory up there.

On the west side we go to the White Tanks....Ruler and Asylum are the best trails in that area. Asylum is INSANE, but will be closed very soon.

We have a trail right outside Apache Junction called Willow Springs. And we even have a few near Payson and Gisela. The one in Payson is about as hard as they come....it's called Skull Crusher.

If you're in the area and want to do some wheeling, (assuming my junk is up and running by then) please don't hesitate to contact me. I like wheeling with all types of vehicles; I'm not snobby about it.

Take care,
Sean

[CampMaster]

Pans may work in the desert. I didn't wheel too much out there, though when I did it was bone dry.

I don't think that a pan is a viable option in the PNW. It's just too wet and muddy. I beleive mus would pack up over the pan. So unless you trailer it too and from the trails - your going to have some Hwy heat building up without any air circulating to cool it.

I do understand your suposition about the pan providing more universal protection, since the ladder inherantly provides hole which rocks could hang up on. No matter how good the spotter or the line, eventually you will get stuck.

Every wheeler must balance the type of wheeling and terrain with the pros/cons of lifting to improve approach/break over/departure angles. If you don't encounter side hills often, the COG becomes less critical.

Manny ways/types of wheeling... means there isn't one solution for all situations.

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Sean K.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sean K.:
That particular comment was really in response to, "we put 7,500lbs on a ladder-type UCP and drag it across a pointed rock with no problems."

What I meant was on the trails I've run, (and hopefully many H3s will begin running as modifications permit), it would be happening quite frequently with a ladder type support. Someone mentioned earlier about picking good lines and tire placement.....true in a perfect world, you can pick your way through and the holes in the undercarriage will be a non-issue.....but Murphy and that f<span class="ev_code_BLACK">uck</span>ed up law of his always seems to show up at the worst possible time and a tire slips off line and then you're stuck. Know what I mean?

Does the H3 forum just draw the dumbasses out out of the woodwork or what?

So, on the trails you run, rocks are somehow worse than any others that anybody else does. They just are soooo badass that you would have problems frequently if you had a ladder type UCP, huh? ****ing idiot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Paragon,

Wow, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah

Take care,
Sean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Let us know when you wheeled somewhere besides your own backyard

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Sean K.:
More BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH =ing no real experince

Take care,
Sean

sure thing there sport

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by CampMaster:
Pans may work in the desert. I didn't wheel too much out there, though when I did it was bone dry.

I don't think that a pan is a viable option in the PNW. It's just too wet and muddy. I beleive mus would pack up over the pan. So unless you trailer it too and from the trails - your going to have some Hwy heat building up without any air circulating to cool it.

I do understand your suposition about the pan providing more universal protection, since the ladder inherantly provides hole which rocks could hang up on. No matter how good the spotter or the line, eventually you will get stuck.

Every wheeler must balance the type of wheeling and terrain with the pros/cons of lifting to improve approach/break over/departure angles. If you don't encounter side hills often, the COG becomes less critical.

Manny ways/types of wheeling... means there isn't one solution for all situations.

I agree about the mud.....unfortunately, I get very myopic with my viewpoint. I've lived all over the US (MT, NM, CO, OK, AR, AZ, CA, UT) and wheeled all sorts of terrain, but I've been heavily involved with rockcrawling for about the last 8 years or so (even competitions) and I tend to only think in those terms now, so I apologize again for my comments.

I also trailer my junk everywhere now....have been for about the last 4-5 years I guess. We just experience too much metal fatigue that you just can't see to safely run on the road. (Not all of the bellypan experience I was commenting on was on trailer queens....but the majority was to be 100% honest).

Sean

[Kevin B]

If you're in the area and want to do some wheeling, (assuming my junk is up and running by then) please don't hesitate to contact me. I like wheeling with all types of vehicles; I'm not snobby about it. Smile

sounds like fun but I doubt I will EVER make that trip again in the summer time. I honstly dont know how people survive out there during the summer months. If I remember correctly it was something like 118/122 degrees . Thanks for the offer, if we come out there again that sounds like more fun than roasting with the relitives .