Any 1911 fans on the board?

[Beastmaster]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Toadies:
Indeed. Nothing like having your pistol blow up in time of need.

Most LE are forced by departments to carry those ****ty pieces because Mr.Glock sucks major LE cawk. They practically give them to departments compared to Kimbers, HKs, Sigs, etc.

I wouldn't use one for a doorstop. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, these are the primary reasons why Glocks have won out over the years versus any other major manufacturer:

1) Weight. My duty belt (with a Colt Double Eagle, of all things!) had the DE, Surefire, two handcuffs, 4 magazines, stun gun, and ASP. Taking a few ounces off helps the duty officer. (I also had a S&W 945 in a belly band holster off of my body armor). That's a lot of stuff to haul around.

2) Ammo count. The S&W 39 and 59's (made famous by the Illinois State Police when they went to it in 1968) started the trend of high capacity duty carry. Glock's G17 with 16+1 perpetuated that even further. Add the gangbanger FUD (Fear/Uncertainty/Doubt), and you've got something there.

One patrol officer I used to know had a G21 with 4 spare magazines. He used to give me crap (since I only had Wilson 8 rounders x4 spares with me) all the time. He fell into the FUD....hook, line and sinker.

If I really need that much firepower, out came my FN/FAL. Screw the .45, screw the AR-15 or the Ruger Mini-14 or the Remington 870 with slugs- give me .308 with the FAL.

3) Perceived Durability. When I was going through Instructor training, there was a rather hilarious video about how this one southern state Sheriff's office did their Glock "testing". I now wish I kept or made a copy of it. It shows the G17 getting tortured by:
- Multiple Helicopter Drops
- Mud dunk
- Run over by a patrol car
- Thrown onto a brick wall
- and some other stuff I don't remember.

What was hilarious about the video was that the lead tester (who might have been the elected Sheriff too), took the G17 after each torture test, loaded it, shot off all the rounds in the magazine in a really haphazard fashion, then tossed it onto the nearest flat surface (most of the time which was the concrete floor.). He eventually knocked off the front sight.

Well, that video helped sell Glocks. Many departments, stung by the failures of many various shotguns other than the Remington 870, saw this video as the ultimate torture test.

What also helped was that the same G17 that was beaten up by that backwater department made its rounds to other departments....and beaten up even more.

And with realism - how many officers really keep their duty pistols clean? I still clean mine every month if they are unused, and after each use when I take them on the range. But I've been drilled so many times on the aphorism "a clean gun is a happy gun" that all of my firearms are happy. Police departments look at reliability - will the pistol fire when you pull the trigger and if it's abused like most officers abuse their pistols?

4) Armorer's school....or the simplicity of it. Take one punch bought at Sears, and you can fix most stuff (short of sights) with a Glock. Win over the hearts of the poor souls that have to fix the pistols that get abused by the officers that don't take care of them, and you get good reports back up the chain of command.

5) Finally, it comes down to training. When Glock came out of the shadow, many departments still used revolvers. Glock was the first manufacturer who could prove to training departments that the overall basics of firearms training remained the same, and that you needed to just teach the issues/differences of loading/unloading and clearing jams. No external safeties, no other niggling issues, just teach the same basics (which are the same basics no matter which pistol you use, really), and add the esoterics of magazine handling.

This is where Glock won out. This is where Glock continues to win - convincing the departments of the last two items are cost savings. This is how Glock has won 60% of the Police Departments and the FBI. I'm not saying it's right, but with a decent product and excellent marketing - they really did a number on the competition.

[Harley]

Steve, I agree entirely... I shoot IPSC with a G35 so I don't switch between guns too often (other than a ccw)... ( I personally carry a G22 at work). I've dumped thousands and thousands of rounds through that gun and it did fail once, we think it was d/t a jacked up reloaded round... and the weapon did just what it was supposed to... it dumped the mag (yes it spanked my hand) and expelled the gasses downward. I replaced the extractor that got knocked off, got a new mag and was ready for the next stage... same gun.

[Beastmaster]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bondage:

Enjoy your new weapon. I think you've made an outstanding choice, now practice, practice, practice! You were too kind to call our rambling nonesense "advice." But take what Beastmaster said to heart - he is, IMHO, dead on. Go back and re-read his last post. I agree 110%.

Sean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Drills are the key. It's called muscle memory, and if you do the drills over and over and over - your gross motor skills will react properly and by the numbers under stress every single time. This is the basis for most successful training programs that combining firearms and stress mangement.

I've got a funny story about muscle memory, rather recent, in fact.

My stress relief is practicing a rather esoteric martial art called Krav Maga. We had an out of state instructor come by to demonstrate disarming techiques.

Utilizing ASP Red Training guns, we practiced the movements. Then came the drills using real "training" weapons - firearms with plugged barrels, no magazines, and no firing pins. The pistol in this case was a Beretta 92.

The out of state instructor (who instructs with LAPD SWAT) was the guy I was paired with. Figures. And he was the armed person.

Now - when you're doing pistol takeaways, rule #1 is: The gun will go off! Most takeaways will have you grasp the pistol in the area of the ejector port to cause a jam when the pistol discharges. Well, in my former life's training, when you take away the pistol, you rack the slide twice (done to clear and put the pistol back into battery), come up to target, and assess. (Of course, I won't talk about situations where you back into a semi-auto pistol!)

Well, that's what I did. Everyone started asking me why I did that. Then came the real life versus dojo training discussion.

So - muscle memory done years ago for 3 1/2 years straight still applies and is remembered over 10 years later. It did cause the group to discuss stuff that the instructors really didn't want to cover, but the point is that doing drills over and over again until they are second nature will put you in good stead.

I do have a bad story about the same clearing drill. I was a particpant in an introductory IPSC shoot. The fake sceneario was an interesting one where you grabbed any loaded pistol on the table and started shooting the selected targets. On the table were three revolvers and one Sig P228 semi-auto.

The Sig got a stovepipe jam on the second target. Muscle memory said for me to cycle twice and continue. That's what I did. Floor rules for that day's shoot was to halt after all jams. I got DQ'ed. So there are times where real life drills sometimes conflict with competition rules.

[Beastmaster]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Harley:
Steve, I agree entirely... I shoot IPSC with a G35 so I don't switch between guns too often (other than a ccw)... ( I personally carry a G22 at work). I've dumped thousands and thousands of rounds through that gun and it did fail once, we think it was d/t a jacked up reloaded round... and the weapon did just what it was supposed to... it dumped the mag (yes it spanked my hand) and expelled the gasses downward. I replaced the extractor that got knocked off, got a new mag and was ready for the next stage... same gun. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And that's why I've slowed my 1911 carry down a bit...actually quite a bit! Using the same pistol over and over builds that muscle memory and refreshes it. I have to enhance my G30 and G21's handling. Here's why.

My wife carries the G23 for CCW. To standardize (in case of anything adverse that happens), I've been carrying the G30 or G21 a lot more. I really should get another G23 and carry that instead.

Which brings back the side discussion about standardization. Standardization in NATO meant using the same ammo. Police departments should do the same thing - standardize along the same firearm family so that you can interchange parts and ammo. In the off chance of an extended firefight, officers can exchange magazines with little to no issues, or at least use the same ammo by migration to magazines of the type that their weapon can use. That's why Phoenix PD uses (for their patrol officers) G22's and G23's.

But again, training repetitively is the key. I know that when I carry the G30 or G21, my wife doesn't have to change her way of thinking to adapt to use it if she has to. It operates identically to her G23. She can grab ANY one of the Glocks and use it, and she knows how the trigger works, the angle of the grip to her hand, sight alignment, etc.

Again, gross motor skills and the training to make you use it in adverse situations will help you survive. And I need to reinforce it myself by carrying the G30 or G21 more often than I do.

[Toadies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Beastmaster:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Toadies:
Indeed. Nothing like having your pistol blow up in time of need.

Most LE are forced by departments to carry those ****ty pieces because Mr.Glock sucks major LE cawk. They practically give them to departments compared to Kimbers, HKs, Sigs, etc.

I wouldn't use one for a doorstop. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, these are the primary reasons why Glocks have won out over the years versus any other major manufacturer:

1) Weight. My duty belt (with a Colt Double Eagle, of all things!) had the DE, Surefire, two handcuffs, 4 magazines, stun gun, and ASP. Taking a few ounces off helps the duty officer. (I also had a S&W 945 in a belly band holster off of my body armor). That's a lot of stuff to haul around.

2) Ammo count. The S&W 39 and 59's (made famous by the Illinois State Police when they went to it in 1968) started the trend of high capacity duty carry. Glock's G17 with 16+1 perpetuated that even further. Add the gangbanger FUD (Fear/Uncertainty/Doubt), and you've got something there.

One patrol officer I used to know had a G21 with 4 spare magazines. He used to give me crap (since I only had Wilson 8 rounders x4 spares with me) all the time. He fell into the FUD....hook, line and sinker.

If I really need that much firepower, out came my FN/FAL. Screw the .45, screw the AR-15 or the Ruger Mini-14 or the Remington 870 with slugs- give me .308 with the FAL.

3) Perceived Durability. When I was going through Instructor training, there was a rather hilarious video about how this one southern state Sheriff's office did their Glock "testing". I now wish I kept or made a copy of it. It shows the G17 getting tortured by:
- Multiple Helicopter Drops
- Mud dunk
- Run over by a patrol car
- Thrown onto a brick wall
- and some other stuff I don't remember.

What was hilarious about the video was that the lead tester (who might have been the elected Sheriff too), took the G17 after each torture test, loaded it, shot off all the rounds in the magazine in a really haphazard fashion, then tossed it onto the nearest flat surface (most of the time which was the concrete floor.). He eventually knocked off the front sight.

Well, that video helped sell Glocks. Many departments, stung by the failures of many various shotguns other than the Remington 870, saw this video as the ultimate torture test.

What also helped was that the same G17 that was beaten up by that backwater department made its rounds to other departments....and beaten up even more.

And with realism - how many officers really keep their duty pistols clean? I still clean mine every month if they are unused, and after each use when I take them on the range. But I've been drilled so many times on the aphorism "a clean gun is a happy gun" that all of my firearms are happy. Police departments look at reliability - will the pistol fire when you pull the trigger and if it's abused like most officers abuse their pistols?

4) Armorer's school....or the simplicity of it. Take one punch bought at Sears, and you can fix most stuff (short of sights) with a Glock. Win over the hearts of the poor souls that have to fix the pistols that get abused by the officers that don't take care of them, and you get good reports back up the chain of command.

5) Finally, it comes down to training. When Glock came out of the shadow, many departments still used revolvers. Glock was the first manufacturer who could prove to training departments that the overall basics of firearms training remained the same, and that you needed to just teach the issues/differences of loading/unloading and clearing jams. No external safeties, no other niggling issues, just teach the same basics (which are the same basics no matter which pistol you use, really), and add the esoterics of magazine handling.

This is where Glock won out. This is where Glock continues to win - convincing the departments of the last two items are cost savings. This is how Glock has won 60% of the Police Departments and the FBI. I'm not saying it's right, but with a decent product and excellent marketing - they really did a number on the competition. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lies and Frapications.

Most LEs are not gun enthusiasts and therefore could care less about their carry. Hence giving them a lighter weapon with plenty of "pray and spray" potential. Any ability to use the weapon adequately are backseat to the primary objective that is making sure Barney Fife doesn't blow his foot off just like the monkey DEA agent on that video. But you see the biggest safety hazard for a weapon is a LE type who sucks at self preservation and WILL NOT invest time and effort let alone the fact that a majority of departments are tighter than a 10yr old chinese twat. They will not spend the funds to give their officers the best weapons and training let alone give their officers a fine quality weapon like a Sig, Kimber, Wilson, etc. It is simply easier to pay out the life insurance policy when Joe Law fails at his chosen occupation in life.

LE officers PWND by taxpayers and Gastons tupperware guns.

[Bondage]

Okay, Beastmaster, I know the vid you are talking about and I've seen it. It is an outstanding testament to the durability of that design and build. HOWEVER........

We don't usually drop our pistols out of choppers. We DO (or at least a friend of mine DID) tuck his Glock between the mattress and box springs of his bed. He came home one day and found that his dog had literally EATEN THE DAMN FRAME!!! It was about the funniest f()ckin' thing I'd ever seen. The dog had popped the mag and chewed it up pretty well, but the frame was basically GONE! You'll not see a photo of this or a video though. He took it in to the gunshop, they contacted Glock, and Glock had the weapon shipped immediately back to them and they replaced the frame - for FREE! That was one pic I don't think they wanted floating around.

The moral of the story is this - get a goddam Nylabone for your dog and keep your Glock high and dry when you're not around!


Sean

ps - Again, I agree 110% - muscle memory, developed through repetition, IS the key. I am right handed and left eye dominant, so I "cross shoot." My shooting stance is therefor a little unique, but when my bicep hits my cheekbone, the sights are ON! It makes shooting a sidearm more like shooting a rifle! A little weird, yeah, but a LOT effective.

[Bondage]

BTW, I found actual video of Toadie displaying his firearm prowess...


Sean

[Petey]

Did we lose PARAGAY??? Guess all those facts scared him off.

[Beastmaster]

No. He's not the type to be scared off. He gathers information and waits patiently.

[Toadies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Beastmaster:
No. He's not the type to be scared off. He gathers information and waits patiently. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He gathers no information.. leastwise not "correct" information.

I know I was shock to find out we adopted the M9 pistol because of it's long range capablities and not so we could interchange ammo stocks with NATO allies... Or due to the fact that Beretta was "fed" the bid amount so they could win. And it was low bid not best bid... And most tactical engagements take place well beyond the established 21 feet.

Wow it was like history had changed itself...

Just shocking.

[PARAGON]

Actually, I have a hard time typing in response to continued stupid nonsense from storythehut while driving 12 hours and got back home late last night. Go back and learn some history that's actual, from the people involved. Not the BS you like to pretend is facts.

Ronald Reagan was rebuilding our Armed Forces. Standardization was the politically correct excuse. Back in Vietnam, the subject of the range of the Colt was discussed and debated. It was a great tunnel gun but range limited it's ability in many engagements. This was after we assumed use of the M16.

If the US was simply concerned about NATO interoperability, the Colt would have been replaced long before it was. Our guys were taking German Lugers in WWII and using them for their range. The .45's use had debated been ever since and there were many on both sides of the argument.

So, where did I say anything about the choice of Beretta over other makers? Also, where did I say "most tactical engagements take place well beyond the established 21 feet?" You are a dumpster diving tool. And Petey, exactly what "facts" are supposed to have "scared me off."

I don't need to gather information on this one. Toadies, aka Storyfck, already has a Sterling reputation for being a complete dumbass here and on other sites.

[PARAGON]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Toadies:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Beastmaster:
No. He's not the type to be scared off. He gathers information and waits patiently. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He gathers no information.. leastwise not "correct" information. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You obviously did not get the inference there. Never heard of a USMC S/S before?

[Toadies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Toadies:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Beastmaster:
No. He's not the type to be scared off. He gathers information and waits patiently. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He gathers no information.. leastwise not "correct" information. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You obviously did not get the inference there. Never heard of a USMC S/S before? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay secret agent man..

[Toadies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
Actually, I have a hard time typing in response to continued stupid nonsense from storythehut while driving 12 hours and got back home late last night. Go back and learn some history that's actual, from the people involved. Not the BS you like to pretend is facts.

Ronald Reagan was rebuilding our Armed Forces. Standardization was the politically correct excuse. Back in Vietnam, the subject of the range of the Colt was discussed and debated. It was a great tunnel gun but range limited it's ability in many engagements. This was after we assumed use of the M16.

If the US was simply concerned about NATO interoperability, the Colt would have been replaced long before it was. Our guys were taking German Lugers in WWII and using them for their range. The .45's use had debated been ever since and there were many on both sides of the argument.

So, where did I say anything about the choice of Beretta over other makers? Also, where did I say "most tactical engagements take place well beyond the established 21 feet?" You are a dumpster diving tool. And Petey, exactly what "facts" are supposed to have "scared me off."

I don't need to gather information on this one. Toadies, aka Storyfck, already has a Sterling reputation for being a complete dumbass here and on other sites. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong again **** for brains Jarine...

here once again.. read and learn then get back to me..



http://www.sightm1911.com/index.htm

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> In 1985, the United States Armed Forces replaced the M1911 with the Beretta 92 F to the everlasting consternation of 1911 devotees everywhere. There were several reasons for the switch. The U.S. was the only NATO country not using a 9mm as the standard issue sidearm and there was a desire to issue a pistol chambered for the ubiquitous 9mm for logistical reasons. The Beretta will hold 15 rounds in its magazine as compared with 7 rounds of the military issue 1911 magazine and is lighter and easier to field strip than the 1911. The double action/single action Beretta was perceived as being a safer pistol to carry in a state of readiness than the "cocked and locked" 1911. In some quarters, the .45 ACP was viewed as too powerful and difficult to control for those having only nominal training with the weapon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one disputes this except you know it all double ought spy man....

[PARAGON]

Well, I don't think I have the intelligence to break down into terms you can understand why things are not so black and white.

If you want facts about what caliber and what handguns are good for everyday use, consult the FBI. Better yet go peruse their terminal ballistic studies and figure it out for yourself.

Storytoads, you have openly shown your ignorance in yet another subject. I offered up several holes for you to actively argue and you showed your blatent lack of knowledge on this issue and that anything posted by you is very subject.

Do you really think it would be a published fact that We wanted a different round because the .45 lacks the penetration of other rounds? Range is not just about accuracy, it is the terminal ability of the round, and a pistol projectile that does not penetrate will get the shooter killed. This is why I personally do not chamber HydraShoks. If I knew the contact was going to be at 10 feet, a .45 with HydraShoks would be great, but I can't predict the encounter and choose to have the best option for all engagements.

Everybody has their opinions, some are based on experience or knowledge. StoryToad, you have shown that you have neither.

[KenP]

Paragon, I forgot to tell you I like you carry weapon.

[Bondage]

Paragon - I don't think I ever caught your caliber and load (and I'm too lazy to go back and read over Toadstools BS to find it). Do you carry a .40 Short and Wimpy? Sorry - couldn't resist. I actually really like the round. What rounds do you stoke it with for everyday use? Are you familiar with the +P Golden Sabre rounds? I don't know about .40, but they are about tops in the .45. I have half a box of the original Black Talon's laying around here somewhere in .40 - if we ever meet up on the trail, I'll give 'em to you as a reminder of how pathetically PC the USA has become.


Sean

ps - hey Toadstool....

[Toadies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLATHER BLATHER BLATHER </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the basis of your arguements throughout this thread is the military adopted the M9 due to a perceived lacking in range and accuracy on with the 1911. you are wrong and very stupid to keep blathering your bull**** opining about what does not constitute a valid tactical situation. again, you = wannabe CQB man..

You are the only one who is dazzled with your pretend military experience and tactical expertise. Most LEs and operators would laugh at your dumbass as most likely half this board is not counting your sackriders.

[PARAGON]

Noticed I purposely did not advocate or push MY choice. I am fairly standardized with the .40SW, though. Although I do own anything from a MarkII to a DE .44mag.

The Remington Golden Sabres are pretty much top dog as far as the average round goes from what I remember. Their wound creation is well beyond most other rounds.

I have Winchester Ranger Partition Golds that I got several boxes of from a buddy and are my CC loads. The Hydra-Shoks rate well in tests but when they loose some kinetic energy their penetration drops off faster or so I was told.

There might be newer and better rounds available today but when when it hits the fan there are many more variables that I am concerned about than a few gelatin tests.

[PARAGON]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Toadies:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLATHER BLATHER BLATHER </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the basis of your arguements throughout this thread is the military adopted the M9 due to a perceived lacking in range and accuracy on with the 1911. you are wrong and very stupid to keep blathering your bull**** opining about what does not constitute a valid tactical situation. again, you = wannabe CQB man..

You are the only one who is dazzled with your pretend military experience and tactical expertise. Most LEs and operators would laugh at your dumbass as most likely half this board is not counting your sackriders.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>Ok