Attn: gun experts

[Mrs.ssippi]

Originally Posted by MarineHawk

It helps that I wear my pants like this:

A good friend of ours works SWAT in Kansas City MO, and he said he loves it that the bad "guys" wear their pants like that. He said you know when they are going to run, because they pause to pull them up, and then they run. Works great for them and gives them a few seconds.

[Mrs.ssippi]

Originally Posted by PhilD

Spoken like a true whining liberal "Don't do anything to upset them and they'll leave you alone" Shoot them dead and then see if they can hurt you anymore

Phil, I like how you think!

[Andy C]

The mark of a true professional is KNOWING when NOT to draw a gun.
Always remember that by drawing a weapon you have just turned a dangerous situation into a deadly one - so you had better bloody well know how to use it.

If anyone has any questions about this ask Peter Blake, oh wait he is dead. (Famous round the world sailor that was shot and killed in the Amazon after he tried to pull a gun on armed robbers, interestingly they did not kill the rest of the crew, witnesses, they just fled the scene)

[dеiтайожни]

Originally Posted by PhilD

I'd go a step further, say something like "I've got loads of money in my car, let me get it", or I've got a pile of money, here have it", something to catch their attention and focus on for a second or two, enough to disorient them long enough to put them down.

You'd be better off carrying a baseball and throwing it, then yelling crack!

[PARAGON]

Originally Posted by MarineHawk

Not sure. sounds good. Maybe expensive. This place is good and you get paid to train: http://www.mcrdsd.usmc.mil/RTR/trainingDS.htm

Umm...... that would be a ghey place to get training.

This would be a better choice. http://www.mcrdpi.usmc.mil/index.htm

[PARAGON]

Originally Posted by PhilD

Front Sight are well known and respected for their training.

x2

[MarineHawk]

Originally Posted by Andy C

The mark of a true professional is KNOWING when NOT to draw a gun.
Always remember that by drawing a weapon you have just turned a dangerous situation into a deadly one - so you had better bloody well know how to use it.

If anyone has any questions about this ask Peter Blake, oh wait he is dead. (Famous round the world sailor that was shot and killed in the Amazon after he tried to pull a gun on armed robbers, interestingly they did not kill the rest of the crew, witnesses, they just fled the scene)

Your assertion seems to be in opposition to 800,000 to 2.5 million instances where law abiding citizens use firearms successfully in self defense in the U.S. every year. Note: Most estimates are much higher. 14 studies fell between 800,000 and 2.5m; one study, the lowest by far, was 108,000.
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html
http://www.gunsandcrime.org/dgufreq.html

Even 108,000 (and even ABC News acknowledged that the number was higher) is an awful lot of non-weird-rainforest incidents and many times higher than the total number of murders comitted in the U.S. every year.

As far as anectdotes, how about the time when a New Orleans resident pulled into his driveway in the mid-90s and there was a strange van in his driveway and his wife inside. [At the time, the average response time to a 911 call in N.O. was 38 minutes (I lived there and had NOPD members in my Marine Resurve unit)]. At that point, [1] he could wait who knows how long for the cops while they molest/kill his wife; [2] run in unarmed; or [3] go in there and kill the intruders. Fortunately, he chose option [3]. He saved his wife from certain tragedy.
He quickly drew his pistol and entered through the front door. He found three large men inside along with his nude wife tied to a chair. [She hadn't been raped yet.] He fired. He killed one; inured another; and pursued the third out the door. The intruders were armed and at least one was a convicted rapist (released, of course). By not "cooperating" with these guys, he saved himself and wife from some pretty serious tragedy. That kind of story happens a lot more often than the weird rain-forest stuff.

[PARAGON]

Originally Posted by Andy C

The mark of a true professional is KNOWING when NOT to draw a gun.
Always remember that by drawing a weapon you have just turned a dangerous situation into a deadly one - so you had better bloody well know how to use it.

If anyone has any questions about this ask Peter Blake, oh wait he is dead. (Famous round the world sailor that was shot and killed in the Amazon after he tried to pull a gun on armed robbers, interestingly they did not kill the rest of the crew, witnesses, they just fled the scene)

Has nothing to do with professionalism. It's maintenance of life. You can never assume what someone is going to do. You don't risk yours or anyone else's life on the possibility that someone just wants your wallet. They might want the path of least resistance and take your "property" and then take your life so that there is no witnesses.

Proper employment of any weapon is a responsibility and has to be gauged by the situation. If you are willing to simply shoot someone because you can get away with it because they pointed a gun at you, then you shouldn't carry. But, sorry, if you THINK that is all that is going to occur, your chance of death in the event he chooses to kill you is 100%.

Inaction is a choice, just as choosing to shoot a badguy is. Inaction carries it's own responsibilities just as shooting someone does. Yes, making the right decisions on WHEN to act is just as important as the type of action.

Racer, in all honesty. IMO you need to re-evaluate your need to carry a gun. You have plenty of time to think these things through right now aforehand and you are second guessing the shoot/no shoot situation. I'm sorry, but the simple truth is that if you have a gun pointed at you, and unless you are 100% positive that person is not going to shoot you or another person, you have to shoot that person. You cannot guess what their actions are going to be.

I'll put it in a different perspective. If it was some grungy guy with a gun to your head and he was simply asking for your wife's purse, how can you assume he is not attempting to gain keys or something to a vehicle so he can kidnap her to take her and rape her.

[PARAGON]

Wierd,

Two Marines posting the exact same time about wive's getting hurt scenarios

[ETD]

Originally Posted by MarineHawk

IMHO, it is irresponsible for me and others to advise someone to not arm himself when the coroner goes over his dead body because he was in a fight without a weapon. Of course, he needs to be trained. Read the Armed Citizen feature in the American Rifleman. It's regulalry filled with stories of people who saved their lives by deploying a firearm against people who were threatening them annd/or their families. I've noticed that many of them are 80 year old women. certainly, most of them aren't Navy Seals or otherwise have a "background in close quarter combat."

Can not disagree with you there. You simply quoted one line in my answer but agreed with the rest of my premise based on your subsequent answers. I simply wanted to point out that unlike all the "80 years old women" (Is that really so? ) opportunistic gun slingers, young Racer-X here knowingly enters hostile territories and therefore needs to be and can be prepared better than just "carry & shoot". No disrespect meant to all the firearm experts out there (I am admittedly not a handgun user), just wanted to get a little deeper into preparation than just the generic "what's everyone's favorite handgun" question. You and others did indeed go deeper with links to Marines and Frontsight where he will hopefully learn anticipation rather than response will be the key i.e. he knows he is going into hostile territory, he knows what the hostile agents look like, he will be ready most of the time before there is a gun pointing at him from 6 feet away and won't have to find out "what is the best response when there is a gun pointed at my head". More importantly, he will know whether he will be able to take a living human down for good or whether he will choose evasion at that moment before the conflict goes down. Not everyone can kill another human being at close range and it is difficult to know if you can or not until after the first one. Training that involves thinking about and simulation of another human being's death helps. Young Racer-X may decide that after much study, it may be better for him to forgo "clients" that puts him in situations where his life or another human being's life is at risk of permanent room temperature status. IMHO, of course.

[MarineHawk]

Originally Posted by PARAGON

Wierd,

Two Marines posting the exact same time about wive's getting hurt scenarios

I think yours was more articulate.

My wife fought off one of three attackers armed with handguns (the other two were subduing the two guys she was with) outside of a restaurant off of Greenville Ave. in Dallas in the late 90s before I knew her. She is writing a book about it and related concepts. They took one of guys' keys and were trying to start my wife's car (wrong set of keys). She instinctively began attacking the guy (had some limited martial arts experience) and sceaming loud enough to attract the valets. Bad guys realized things were going from bad to worse and fled. Who knows whether or not she would have ended up in the car and raped or worse if she had been compliant and "cooperated"? She wasn't going to let that happen, even if it meant living with a little risk that these are just misguided guys who would only get provoked by an aggressive response.
As well as that turned out, she and the other two guys would have had more options if they had been armed.

[MarineHawk]

Originally Posted by ETD

Young Racer-X may decide that after much study, it may be better for him to forgo "clients" that puts him in situations where his life or another human being's life is at risk of permanent room temperature status. IMHO, of course.

That's definitely one option to consider.

[ETD]

Or young Racer-X does a little mathematics and figures out that for a reasonable percentage of revenue from "war-zone client" he can afford to hire a body-guard to accompany him into the war-zone. In this way, he does not have to spend $$$ and time in preparation, does his thing with "war-zone client" (WTH does Racer -X do with these clients anyways ), and let the professional worry about the hostile forces shootin & lootin. That would be optimal utilization of resources, no?

[PARAGON]

Originally Posted by MarineHawk

I think yours was more articulate.

My wife fought off one of three attackers armed with handguns (the other two were subduing the two guys she was with) outside of a restaurant off of Greenville Ave. in Dallas in the late 90s before I knew her. She is writing a book about it and related concepts. They took one of guys' keys and were trying to start my wife's car (wrong set of keys). She instinctively began attacking the guy (had some limited martial arts experience) and sceaming loud enough to attract the valets. Bad guys realized things were going from bad to worse and fled. Who knows whether or not she would have ended up in the car and raped or worse if she had been compliant and "cooperated"? She wasn't going to let that happen, even if it meant living with a little risk that these are just misguided guys who would only get provoked by an aggressive response.
As well as that turned out, she and the other two guys would have had more options if they had been armed.

Ok, for the freaking record. I have never heard your wife's story or talked to you or about any of this before. That's too freaky for me and I am going to now go dry fire a few times.

[PARAGON]

Come to think of it, I was at a restuarant off of Greenville in Dallas back several years ago and .......... nahhhh couldn't be.

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Just Kidding!

[RIC-H0]

In the end, after all that is said and done in this posting,
It's a very personal decision...are you willing to shoot, or not!?
No one can make up your mind for you, just present you with the facts.

Either way, Be Safe!

[Racer-X]

Originally Posted by PARAGON

Racer, in all honesty. IMO you need to re-evaluate your need to carry a gun. You have plenty of time to think these things through right now aforehand and you are second guessing the shoot/no shoot situation. I'm sorry, but the simple truth is that if you have a gun pointed at you, and unless you are 100% positive that person is not going to shoot you or another person, you have to shoot that person. You cannot guess what their actions are going to be.

I'm seeing your point. So how am I better off without a gun? If he's going to shoot me for his next crack rock - which is better - to be unarmed or hesitating to pull and shoot?

I think this is where the class will come into play. All of your views are changing my thoughts on what I would do. The class would likely further that, no?

I'll put it in a different perspective. If it was some grungy guy with a gun to your head and he was simply asking for your wife's purse, how can you assume he is not attempting to gain keys or something to a vehicle so he can kidnap her to take her and rape her.

Point taken Edited to add: I think I would react very differently with my wife or kids around.

[Racer-X]

Originally Posted by ETD

Young Racer-X may decide that after much study, it may be better for him to forgo "clients" that puts him in situations where his life or another human being's life is at risk of permanent room temperature status. IMHO, of course.

First off, I'm not young

Second, as I said, normally I'm in great neighborhoods for a given client.

Let me give an example. I'm working for a mortgage broker or bank who's working on a reverse mortgage. 90% I'm in a great neighborhood, 9% scetchy and 1% of the time I'm in da hood.

The same client is literally responsible for say 30% of my companies income. Being picky about where I work and where I don't would lose me the client entirely. It's not a matter of greed, its a matter of survival for myself and my family.

Lots of careers have risks. Minimizing them is the key.