EATON FRONT E-LOCKER

[Hummie2]

FRONT E-LOCKERS

Hey Steve R I checked this out just for you buddy. I though I would start a new topic on it as I did't want the news to get burried at the end of the old thread.

Front Eaton E-Lockers are in the works for the GM 9.2IFS!

I just got off the phone with the folks @ Reider Racing www.reiderracing.com and the tech guy told me the E-lockers are coming but are running about 6 months behind schedule. He said hopefully will be available in 2-3 months. Price should be the same as for rear E-Locker which is priced at $695.95

ARB air lockers are presently available for front for $695 and require a air compressor for$190. He said the H2's compressor might work but ARB unit requires 130psi pressure min. Would have to check and see if H2 compressor can
make that much pressure.

I have coil rear suspension so therefore no air compressor. I think I will wait for E-Locker.

I usually don't give endorsements but Reider Racing and Rancho Suspension are 2 companies that I have been satisfied with. Reider were the people who modified that Detroit Locker I mentioned in the other thread and it was truly a thing of beauty when they finished with it.

Don

[Hummie2]

FRONT E-LOCKERS

Hey Steve R I checked this out just for you buddy. I though I would start a new topic on it as I did't want the news to get burried at the end of the old thread.

Front Eaton E-Lockers are in the works for the GM 9.2IFS!

I just got off the phone with the folks @ Reider Racing www.reiderracing.com and the tech guy told me the E-lockers are coming but are running about 6 months behind schedule. He said hopefully will be available in 2-3 months. Price should be the same as for rear E-Locker which is priced at $695.95

ARB air lockers are presently available for front for $695 and require a air compressor for$190. He said the H2's compressor might work but ARB unit requires 130psi pressure min. Would have to check and see if H2 compressor can
make that much pressure.

I have coil rear suspension so therefore no air compressor. I think I will wait for E-Locker.

I usually don't give endorsements but Reider Racing and Rancho Suspension are 2 companies that I have been satisfied with. Reider were the people who modified that Detroit Locker I mentioned in the other thread and it was truly a thing of beauty when they finished with it.

Don

[Mike97ZJ]

That's great news. That E-Locker looks to be about the best thing since sliced bread, lol.


All the advantages of the ARB, except you don't have to worry about a compresor or the air lines getting ripped out.

An H2 locked at both ends would go just about anywhere! I've seen rigs with dual lockers do some truly amazing things.

I'd like to get one for the rear of my Jeep, but I hate to spend the money on a Dana 35, I really don't think it would hold up.

[Hummie2]

Mike...

Words just can't do a locker justice. I have personally been places in my old CJ5s in 2wd with rear axle locked (my front driveshaft was out and laying on the floor of shop) that my buddy couldn't go in 4wd with open differentials. We were playing on some dirt piles and in one spot we could get one front wheel and one rear wheel in the air. I could go right through in 2wd no problem, but as soon as he got one wheel on each end in the air in 4wd he was stuck.

Those Dana 35s are little light, but 44s front and rear locked might be awesome. Who knows might be the start of a Grand Cherokee version of a Rubicon there.

Don

[Gray]

what is the elocker i have heard about it but im not sure exactly what it is or what it does

Gray

[Hummie2]

Gray...

The E-Locker is what we have in the rear axle instead of a posi-traction. When we push the button on the dash for the locker it locks both the right side and left side rear axles togather making them both turn as one unit. As long as there is one wheel with traction the vehicle will move. Our H2s can only lock the rear E-Locker while they are in 4low lock transfercase mode, otherwise the rear axle is in open mode and functions like a open differential.

In the near future a E-Locker should be available for our front axles.

Don

[Steve R]

THANKS DON!!!!!

I really appreciate the info. I think I'll end up adding the front locker. I'm almost certain the newer H2's will likely come with it anyways....especially seeing as Jeep & Mercedes have it on some of their models, and I hear there will be a new VW that may also come stock with front & rear locker. Seems to me Hummer should have it if any vehicle has it. I was shocked to find the H1 didn't come with them and that our H2's didn't have front lockers either.

Can anyone explain this: we had just crossed a nice stream and were coming out of the river when we came upon a "rock garden"..lots of boulders that looked forbidding. I proceeded to get into this field of rocks and was being guided through. I had the rear suspension up, the transfer case in 4Lo-locked, and the rear locker on. When the front end had one tire in the air.....the tire in the air would spin...which is fine for an open-differetial...but isn't the traction control supposed to come on and stop that free-spinning wheel and divert power to the traction wheel??? I'm starting to get the feeling that when the e-locker is "on"...the traction control system is off!!??

I can understand turning off traction control to the rear axle/tires...but is the front on or off??? cause we were spinning both rear tires and one front tire in the air. That ain't right???

[Hummie2]

Steve...

According to what I have read on trac control it should have enough power to pull a 10% grade with only one wheel, but I don't know if that is with or without the aid of the locker. I feel your assumption that only the front axle would be in trac control mode, if the transfercase and rear axle were locked, is correct, but sometimes GM does some really weird stuff with their computer controls and they seem to go against comon sense until you read the theory of operation in the shop manual ( but we have no shop manuals yet).

Whenever we are able to get a locker for the front axle we will truly have All Wheel Drive.

Now think about this for awhile and let me know your thoughts: Do you want to tie the front axle control in with the rear axle control or do you want to keep the controls seperate. With the controls seperate you could select rear, front or both, but tying them togather would probably simplify the installation wiring somewhat.

Don

[Mike97ZJ]

If I were doing it on my vehicle, I would want to be able to control the front and rear lockers independently.

It'd be nice to have the rear locked when you need it, but the front open so you can steer.

You'd have to be doing some extreme stuff to need a front locker.

[Steve R]

DAMN GOOD SCHTUFF GUYS!!!

Just so ya know...the two of you are my favorite technical guys when it comes to knowing about 4x4 mechanics (I'd say collectively we rule the roost on this forum).

My thoughts are this: I will DEFINITELY get a rear-locker as soon as a good/reliable one is made available, and I will wait for the E-locker for sure!!! ARB is like 8-track/beta.

As far as switches, definitely seperate controls for each individual locker. I've been told, and to some degree have experienced the lack of steering when you have front & rear lockers on. You lose about 15% good steering with the rear locker on....but when you activate a front locker you lose about 75% your ability to steer well. Definitely gotta have seperate controls and use front-locker sparingly for certain special situations that only demand it. Anyways.....

Here's my thought on the traction control and the rear-end. The traction control works similar to anti-lock braking (but in reverse): it modulates braking to the free-spinning wheel...it inhibits all the torque from going to that one loose wheel. By stopping that free-spinning wheel from turning, the torque is redirected to the wheel on the opposite side.

(sidenote; the Range Rover has an amazing traction control system...the moment a tire looses contact with the ground, the brake is applied to that wheel causing the opposing wheel to keep turning faithfully...it's impressive)

Now, if we lock-up (E-locker) the rear-end you basically have one solid axle. The braking of one wheel ENTIRELY effects the other wheel...because each wheel is essentially now attached to the same axle. You can't individually brake each rear wheel AND for that matter the computer can not distinguish which wheel is slipping: each wheel moves 100% consistent with the other. THEREFORE it stands to reason that the traction control (at least for the rear section) MUST be turned OFF when the rear is locked!

I'd like to think the front-end still has a traction control system working....but who knows???? I did see my air-tire spinning freely while the other sat on the rock. I think that is what happened at least.

This makes me want to take some car jacks and play around in the driveway!!!!

Any thoughts gentlemen?????

As you know, when you have an open differential and one tire is free-spinning (in the air per se)...the other tire not only turns...but rotates at twice the speed of normal

[Hummie2]

GOOD EXPLANATION THERE STEVE!

Its nice to be able to talk with people that have a good mechanical knowlege of the vehicles they drive. I have been very IMPRESSED by the amount of information presented on this forum. Thanks Jason for making it available for everyone.

I think Steve meant he will get a Front Locker folks as we already have the rear locker from the factory.

I too wan't each locker on seperate controls for all the reasons both you guys described above.

At first I wasn't too keen on the idea that GM had setteled on the idea that the computer could DICTATE to ME that our rear lockers could only be used in "4Low Lock", but I understand why they did it. They did not want any liabilaty issue that might arise from a vehicle at speed that might not have complete control of its steering. For a novice to lockers a vehicle that tends to plow straight ahead when the steering wheel is turned might be disaster just waiting to happen, so therefore the locker in our H2s is limited to 4 Low Lock only. Also another thing about a Locker is it's tendency to "side slip" when both wheels are spinning on a really slippery surface like ice. Having the rear end of a rig "spinout" sideways instead of going straight can really suprise someone if they are not expecting it ( its something you have to experience a few times before you aquire that "Seat of the Pants" feel for when driving with a Locker ).

Steve let us know what you find out when you get done playing with yours in the driveway.

One thing for certain the H2 with it's Anti Skid/Traction Controls for when it's at speed and Locked on both Front and Rear Axle for low speed crawling would be one of the best things going on four wheels.

Don

[Steve R]

Don,

Thanks for the kind words AND right back at ya!!

Your right....as much as I re-read and edit my writing, some stuff slips by: it's a front-locker that I'm looking to get!

Just some additional thoughts. I've posted the similar inquiry on the H2ml and one person responded in reminding me that the traction control needs two things: 1) you must not be "on" the brakes at all (this foils the computers ability to sensor stuff) and 2) the rpm's/gas must be kept fairly level for a bit of time also for the computer to sense stuff.

You know what's funny....here I sit in my comfy office all calm and collect just thinking about the situation....yet at the time it was happening, there were two spotters giving me orders from outside, one guy in the vehicle with me also contributing and about 7 other rigs watching/waiting to see how it would go. With all the people, exitement and adrenaline in the air....who knows what was going on. The only thing for sure going on was a LOT of fun.

I've got some research to do and some playing around. Maybe I will jack the thing up, put various wheels in the air and play with it in my driveway.

Another thought comes to mind: the rock garden was so turbulent that I wanted to creep through it. One issue I was watching others deal with was this: they'd have to get over an object and would need to apply gas until they basically built-up enough "umph" until the vehicle almost lurched upwards. Sometimes they would almost launch upwards and come back down again to a loud crunching noise, or they'd almost over-shoot the rock and lose the opportunity to pivot or redirect towards the next direction.

To combat this 'lurching' I incorporated some braking. By using a Brake-throttle-modulation I would ascend these rocks gracefully, smoothly and with control....creeping along instead of jolting. Trust me...without control the 6,000 pound H2 becomes a marshmellow wobbling drunkedkly across the rocks crushing and grinding boulders as it stumbles. Usually BTM is used for creating a locker-effect, but in this case it was more for a cushioning stablizer effect. I would just apply light braking in conjuntion with gas (less brake as gas came on, more brake as I came off the gas).

ANYWAYS....it was pointed out to me that braking screws up the traction control system...so maybe this is where I went wrong. Whew....too long a post!

[Mike97ZJ]

Actually Steve, it sounds like you know exactly what you are doing. That's how you want to drive over rocks, slow and controlled.

When you hit that stuff hard and lurch over things, you can break stuff when you come crashing back down.

It's all about the finese. It takes more skill to creep over something gently than it does to hammer the throttle and use momentum.

I obviously don't have any experience with it, but I've read in a few magazines that the front traction control takes to much wheelspin (in thier opinion) before it kicks in.

You don't want alot of wheelspin in the rocks. When a spinning tire catches traction, again, that's when you can break stuff.

I think using your technique and driving slow is more of a help than that front traction control would be. It's okay to lift a front tire once in a while, as long as you have those two rears pushing you and you make sure you come back down to earth slowly, no harm done.

[Hummie2]

[quote] "Just some additional thoughts. I've posted the similar inquiry on the H2ml and one person responded in reminding me that the traction control needs two things: 1) you must not be "on" the brakes at all (this foils the computers ability to sensor stuff) and 2) the rpm's/gas must be kept fairly level for a bit of time also for the computer to sense stuff."


Thanks for posting that Steve. That answers alot of questions. I was wondering why factory rep would recomend that you not use Brake/Throttle Modulation,BTM. True you do place more stress on drivetrain using BTM, but if done properly, not enough to hurt anything. Now I feel that their main concern is that the Trac Control is ineffective if you are on the brakes. I am in total agreement with you and Mike in that I will continue use BTM instead of bashing over the rock piles traction control or not.

I can attest that the Trac Control does work at speed. We found a fresh graded gravel road with nice sweeping "S" curves last weekend and decided to play alittle. You could hit the curves hard enough for the rig to break traction and start drifting sideways, let it slide to the apex of the curve and "Gently" apply a little more throttle and feel the Trac Control take over and "Pull" you back out of the corner ready to set up for the next curve. It was totaly awesome and far superior to just regular 4WD. The most fun I've had since I quit racing.

When the front locker becomes available I am definitely going to have one for crawling through the rough stuff using BTM and with H2s Trac Control for faster times we will have the Best of Both Worlds.

Don

[Steve R]

Thanks for the informative words guys. Agreed, the front-locker is the sweet ticket and I'm in the shop the day it comes out.

I watched as another H2 attempted to go over some rocks and did not really use the brakes. The inexperienced driver just applied gas until the rig lurched up and over the rock....only to come down hard with a nasty crushing noise under the belly. Right there and then I realized I'd be using my brakes along with throttle to regulate my progress.

I don't mean to brag....but heck...I went over and through that rock-garden with gentle fineese....not once crashing down. We took our time, chose our lines and worked it out. The other H2 looked like a hippo grinding itself for pleasure on a pile of rocks: it was brutal and ugly!

So often I see drivers and spotters having total disregard to technique. It's a shame.

As for me, I couldn't even see the rocks below me...I was literally flying blind and being guided by my spotters. I was the driver/controls-technician....they were the pathfinders and guides. It was very cool!!! Gotta do it again and get some pics...my buddy Scott told me he saw the H2 doing all sorts of amazing things to get through there...very impressive.

[Mike97ZJ]

Sounds good!

Maybe you ought to teach your friends how to drive!

I'm sure they'd appreciate the pointers.

I know the feeling of having no idea of what's in front of you. It's good to have a spotter you trust. If I don't have a spotter, what I do is pick a line that will put my driver's side tires on the majority of rocks. I can see my front tire if I hang my head out the window a bit, so this minimizes my chances of running into stuff.

Also, I adjust my power mirrors so that I can see the ground and back tires with them. That way I can keep an eye on what the back of the vehicle is doing.

And yeah, have you friends take more pics. I'd like to see some of your truck in the rocks. Maybe you guys ought to bring along an extra person next time just to be cameraman.

[Steve R]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike97ZJ:
Maybe you ought to teach your friends how to drive! And yeah, have you friends take more pics. I'd like to see some of your truck in the rocks. Maybe you guys ought to bring along an extra person next time just to be cameraman.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As for teaching friends, you'd think so...but that particular truck was being guided by the guy who pre-ran the trail and he was letting his girlfriend drive it. Two spotters are like two cooks in the kitchen (sometimes).

We did bring a photographer...no idea what happened with/to him. We crossed the river and the rocks were just as you got out....so he was stuck on the other side.

Mike...can you use BTM on a jeep? I was told elsewhere that BTM only works with torsen differentials and that standard diff's don't really work/respond well to btm?

[Mike97ZJ]

Do you mean will BTM make my open diffs act like limited slips? No, not really.

But I do drive with both feet, as it allows me to creep up a rock, and then get on the brakes and ease myself down slowly. Also, as I don't have that cool drive by wire throttle you guys do, it helps smooth out my throttle imputs. In low range, first gear, it can be a bit jumpy with a 2.72 low range, 3.73 gears, and 30" tires. So if I have some pressure on the brakes at the same time I'm on the gas, it allows me to drive a bit smoother.

That's my thing, I try to drive as smoothly and elegantly as possible. Not only is it much easier on the terrain and vehicle, I also get the satisfaction in knowing it was my driving, and not momentum, that got me over the obstacle.

You'd actually be surprised at how far I can get with open diffs. I have my flexy suspension to thank for that, it's good at keeping all four tires on the ground.

[Hummie2]

Really Great Stuff Guys

I have enjoyed this thread very much and it has certainly given lots of food for thought. Both you guys, Steve and Mike, are very experienced 4 wheelers and are willing to share your experience and knowledge with others less experienced. This is truly what makes "Wheelin" and this forum so enjoyable.

I have purchased a 6 disc CD "SI2000" GM Service Manual Set. When it arrives I plan on giving the front axle section some "very close scrutiny." I also plan on buying a front E-Locker when they become available. I most likely will install it myself and will post detailed pics of the installation if I do. Not that too many others would do the job theirself, but they might like to see what is involved in the process of installing it.

I am also thinking about some way to make the swaybars with a quick disconnect featue. This would help keep our suspension more complient with the terrain off-road and keep the wheels on the ground, instead of in the air. What do you think? Give me some input.

Don

[Mike97ZJ]

Thanks for the kind words, Hummie. You sound very experienced and knowledgeable yourself.

And kudos to you if you install that E-Locker yourself. Looks like a complicated job. I'd be leary of installing one in a sold axle, never mind an IFS diff.

The swaybar disconnect sounds like a good idea. I think it will help out in hte rear, but not sure what the difference will be in the front. I have a friend who wheels a '99 GMC 1500, and he removed his front swaybar and didn't notice much of a difference while offroad. The rear of that truck articulates surprisingly well though.

It's kind of the opposite on my Jeep. Disco'ing the front bar makes a world of difference (I actually have a set of JKS Quick Disconnect links) while removing the rear bar doesn't make that much difference at all. I've removed my rear bar, and haven't noticed much of a diff. Actually, I'm going to put it back on whem the weather gets warmer. The bar actually keeps it a little more stable in offcamber situations.

I'm sure you could rig something up. I saw a great idea on one board. A guy took a quick disconnect air coupler and welded the male side to the lower link, and the female side to the swaybar. So you disconnect the swaybar the same way you'd disconnect your impact wrench from an air hose. Ingenious, I think. I'll post a pic if I can find it.