Protection vs Performance

[KenP]

Originally posted by Woody:
One more thing, when you're on a serious trail, you'll be tilted and offbalanced. It's going to feel very awkward. On top of that, you may bounce a little bit too. Sometimes, you are going to wish that your vehicle wasn't lifted so high. Just my two cents worth.
Woody

You're gonna get change. I know you're not talking about us when referring to the height of the vehicle. If you are, then you haven't done enough research and don't know our particular truck. It's tall, it's fat and it's happy.

I really think our CG may be lower compared to a stock truck due to our width. The problem with most lifted trucks is that the owners use the wrong tire/rim combo. They end up with a tall skinny thing.

Thanks to PhilD because it seems we're set.

[Wile E. Coyote]

Suite yourself. I've done a lot of trails including the Rubicon and like I said, it's just my two cents worth. Good luck.

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Woody:
Suite yourself. I've done a lot of trails including the Rubicon and like I said, it's just my two cents worth. Good luck.

Woody

Well, a Jeep Commander/Liberty/Compass did the freaking Rubicon. It ain't the end all answer.

Try some real trails.

[PARAGON]

Why are you people trying to force a square peg into a round hole?

If you use plating for UCP, you are going to have overheating issues. You'll be cooking the tranny and transfer case fluids all because some idiot on a forum "thinks" it's better.

We've simply proven that ladder-type UCP protection works so why risk it? Ignorance is the only thing being discussed otherwise, we put 7,500lbs on a ladder-type UCP and drag it across a pointed rock with no problems.

Just damn.

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Woody:
One more thing, when you're on a serious trail, you'll be tilted and offbalanced. It's going to feel very awkward. On top of that, you may bounce a little bit too. Sometimes, you are going to wish that your vehicle wasn't lifted so high. Just my two cents worth.

I think you should PAY after making those comments because they are certainly not worth even 2 cents.

[Wile E. Coyote]

Hey Paragon, I had just about had enough with you're A55, so let's clear up the air about this string of posted discussion once and for all. First of all, it's obvious that me and you are on different planets here. From the picture you posted, you have a H2 SUT. Well, I have a H3. You paid twice as much as I did and I get twice the gas mileage as you. You probably had someone else upgrade your rig and you paid twice the cost of the parts. Well I do it myself and it's done right the first time.

Actually, none of these matters, because you obviously think you have a rig that defies the law of gravity. So, if I offended you in some way by saying that "when you're on a serious trail, you'll be tilted and offbalanced. It's going to feel very awkward...", well that's the reality on my planet, my friend. You're vehicle is well balanced from the production line and it's very nice. I am not knocking that. When I say "tilted and offbalanced", what I am referring to is the terrain. On a serious terrain, it's going to tilt your vehicle. It's going to make you feel offbalanced. Have you every taken your vehicle to the manufacturer's spec of maximum 40 degrees side tilt or even 30 degrees for that matter. Try a 25 degree and I'll bet you'll piss in your pants. On top of that, do it while on an uneven terrain, while turning and rolling instead of on a simulated course like the ones that the dealer builds to impress the potential buyers. That's all sales gimic, just like the crap you been hearing that a Liberty has gone thru the Rubicon Trail...Liberty...HA HA HA HA HA HAAH. That's the five mile of paved trail after the real Rubicon Trail. I know you've never been there or else you wouldn't be saying this. Check out this web page if you want to know more about it. Rubicon Trail

Hey, just stick to your cobblestone trails that you showed on your picture, and you'll be just fine. What was that you said earlier, "Fat, dumb and happy" or something like that...

By the way, overheating from armor plating...HA! you don't even know how the plate is set up underneath. I'll let you figure that one out by your self.

By the way, I thought this was an H3 Discussion Board, What the fukc is an H2 SUT doing here? Lost....

One last thing, a little word of wisdom, "You don't know what you don't know".
Ponder on this attached picture...

[Huck BB62]

Hey Woody, is that the Miller Jeep Trail?

[Wile E. Coyote]

Yes, I believe it is. Good eyes.

[Huck BB62]

What the hell happened? Do you know the story behind the picture? I've done that trail in a CJ7, a '67 Jeepster, and a Scout II. That's the toughy a little more than half way up the trail, how'd they roll the H2?

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Woody:
Hey Paragon, I had just about had enough with you're A55 <span class="ev_code_RED">You haven't even begun to deal with me, so can the attitude sport</span> , so let's clear up the air about this string of posted discussion once and for all. First of all, it's obvious that me and you are on different planets here. From the picture you posted, you have a H2 SUT. <span class="ev_code_RED">Well, if you'll go look at the pictures I've posted, you'll see, no I don't own a SUT, stupid.</span> Well, I have a H3. You paid twice as much as I did and I get twice the gas mileage as you. <span class="ev_code_RED">does it bother you that much that can afford a vehicle that costs twice as much and put it on the trail?</span>You probably had someone else upgrade your rig and you paid twice the cost of the parts. Well I do it myself and it's done right the first time. <span class="ev_code_RED">take a look at my past posts and all of the technical discussions of the upgrades I've done myself</span>

Actually, none of these matters <span class="ev_code_RED">no, really, it doesn't matter because it only has to do with your own insecurities</span>, because you obviously think you have a rig that defies the law of gravity. So, if I offended you in some way by saying that "when you're on a serious trail, you'll be tilted and offbalanced. It's going to feel very awkward...", well that's the reality on my planet, my friend. <span class="ev_code_RED">so.... why did you conveniently leave out the main part of that where you said "you are going to wish that your vehicle wasn't lifted so high"</span> You're vehicle is well balanced from the production line and it's very nice. I am not knocking that. When I say "tilted and offbalanced", what I am referring to is the terrain. On a serious terrain, it's going to tilt your vehicle. It's going to make you feel offbalanced. Have you every taken your vehicle to the manufacturer's spec of maximum 40 degrees side tilt or even 30 degrees for that matter. Try a 25 degree and I'll bet you'll piss in your pants. <span class="ev_code_RED">Now, see. Ignorance just catches up to you all of the time. How much you wanna bet that the specs is not 40 degrees side tilt, not to mention I have actual pictures and video of my truck approaching actual 40 degrees side slope, which you have no idea is</span> On top of that, do it while on an uneven terrain, while turning and rolling instead of on a simulated course like the ones that the dealer builds to impress the potential buyers. That's all sales gimic, just like the crap you been hearing that a Liberty has gone thru the Rubicon Trail...Liberty...HA HA HA HA HA HAAH. That's the five mile of paved trail after the real Rubicon Trail. I know you've never been there or else you wouldn't be saying this. Check out this web page if you want to know more about it. Rubicon Trail

Hey, just stick to your cobblestone trails that you showed on your picture, and you'll be just fine. What was that you said earlier, "Fat, dumb and happy" or something like that... <span class="ev_code_RED">Let's see, the closest thing I've done out your way would be out in Moab, like Potato Salad, Hell's Gate, Lion's Back, Escalator, Golden Spike, etc. </span>

By the way, overheating from armor plating...HA! you don't even know how the plate is set up underneath. I'll let you figure that one out by your self.<span class="ev_code_RED">HEY STUPID, there is a picture posted just above where someone suggested what to do instead of a ladder type. </span>

By the way, I thought this was an H3 Discussion Board, What the fukc is an H2 SUT doing here? Lost.... <span class="ev_code_RED">What's your point, do you really want to play footsy with me?</span>

One last thing, a little word of wisdom, "You don't know what you don't know".
Ponder on this attached picture...

Yeah, an idiot with a typing fetish. First look above I responded next to each portion of your attempt at diatribe.

[PARAGON]

Geezus Woody. How ****ing stupid are you. How in the hell did you confuse me with KenP and his SUT with the pic he posted above.

SeanK is a stupid ****ing tool that will continue making a complete fool of himself by posting.

[HummerNewbie]

Damn, did someone piss in your Wheaties Woody? I have no idea who you are or what you have done but you come across as someone who thanks they are the end all of off road knowledge. It really helps your argument if you have your facts straight. Really sorry that someone had the nerve to have a differing opinion but get over yourself. You mentioned in your other thread that Paragon is arrogant, WRONG. I have personally met him and wheeling with him and that would not be a word I would use in my description. You got all up tight about Ken's post (though you seem to think it was Paragon) about their truck. He simply pointed out how their truck's CG is pretty good even though it is lifted. Is it wrong in your mind that anyone could possibly think this? Just because you don't have experience with a lifted vehicle that also has a wide stance does not mean it is a bad thing. On a side note, how the hell are you getting 22 to 26 MPG out of your H3 since as you stated you get twice the gas mileage of an H2? Just goes to show that ignorance must be bliss

[MarineHawk]

Originally posted by Woody:
Have you every taken your vehicle to the manufacturer's spec of maximum 40 degrees side tilt or even 30 degrees for that matter. Try a 25 degree and I'll bet you'll piss in your pants.

Hey, Mr. Smarty:
Do you know the difference between a 40 percent slope and a 40 degree slope?

[Sewie]

By the way, I thought this was an H3 Discussion Board

Um, no. It's a HUMMER forum.

One last thing, a little word of wisdom, "You don't know what you don't know".

Fitting quote. Now look in the mirror and repeat it 100 times.

Oh, and GFY!!! Again.

[HummBebe]

Originally posted by Sewie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">By the way, I thought this was an H3 Discussion Board

Um, no. It's a HUMMER forum.

One last thing, a little word of wisdom, "You don't know what you don't know".

Fitting quote. Now look in the mirror and repeat it 100 times.

Oh, and GFY!!! Again. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Sean K.]

First off, the bellypan that DTHVLY posted is probably okay for a 4Runner.....(anyone know the thickness?), but for *most* vehicles, it's going to need to be alot thicker. On my old Toyota pickup, I personally wouldn't have run that without some sort of additional support, but depends on your use and I admittedly don't know if that unit replaces the factory tcase crossmember entirely as so many Toyota specific skids do.

The stock Hummer one has a lot more rigidity than that sheetmetal one. (Sorry for calling it sheetmetal, but it *looks* thin from the pic). Even if it's 1/4", I'd bet spanning that great a distance on the belly of an H3, it could easily bend in the right environment. Will it still protect your components? Probably, but it's still mashing the tcase up into the floor pan (if you remove the factory crossmembers and use it solely....which I don't think anyone is advocating). The best route is a tubular frame with 1/4" plating. That way the plating does the skid work and the tubing supports the vehicle weight. If the skid that was pictured was actually for an H3 and kept the factory crossmembers, it *could* work....again, depends on the use as well as the distances spanned. Keep in mind though a skid that size will be HEAVY....which can be a good thing if you have enough engine to move it and if you want a negligibly lower CoG.

And I'll agree with Woody....keeping your vehicle as low as possible to clear as big a tire as possible (that your axles can handle) is the right way to build an offroad truck. The "generic" formula for keeping factory stability is usually considered to be "for every inch you lift a vehicle, the track width should be widened by 1.5". So, if you put a 6" lift on, your track width should be 9" wider. Obviously, this "formula" will differ from vehicle to vehicle....it's a generalization that is VERY hard to actually make happen on most vehicles. If someone wants the actual formulas for figuring your CoG, I can link it and then someone with a stock truck vs. a lifted one with offset wheels can do a comparo and we can put the argument to bed. Any takers? We need someone with a stocker, someone with a lifted one and both of them need to be completely honest and able to follow instructions (as well as be able to fab or rig up a set of rigid links to replace the shocks). It will be time consuming, no doubt. ***EDIT*** The one thing we'll need to decide though is: are we really wanting to know CoG or the roll center...or even the roll angle? The tests will change based on what you guys are really wanting to know.

***EDIT***The one thing I would cautiously disagree with Woody about is his comment about "Sometimes, you are going to wish that your vehicle wasn't lifted so high." I'm making the assumption that he's in effect saying that it's better to leave the vehicle stock.....the problem is (especially with a full bodied vehicle): you have to lift it to clear the tires you NEED to run the trails you want. Yes, you may end up paying in terms of stability, but it's one of those tradeoffs you have to make to have the vehicle do what you want (and maybe that's what KenP and Paragon are trying to say). Your only other option is to break out the plasma, sawzall and welder and it would seem that most Hummer owners aren't quite ready to take that leap....yet. ****


As for overheating with a skid pan.....How do you guys that are saying that come to that conclusion? What exactly are you overheating? It certainly isn't going to be the engine. Yes, you may heat up the floor boards and any wiring in the covered area more (especially if the catalytic converter is housed between the floor and skid), but it's highly unlikely that there's anything that will be damaged by the relatively minor increase in temperature....and that includes the transmission and tcase. Again, easy test if we can find a few volunteers....one equipped with no skid and one with a skid in the same local area. That is, if you guys really wanna know for sure instead of merely speculating about something with which you have no experience.

All you guys claiming that rocks never get stuck between the factory UCP bars, obviously don't wheel where I do. That design's a liability, but it's easily solved with some plate if your brand of 4wheeling necessitates it. And yes, it does make it harder to clean up (as well as service).....I'm willing to sacrifice a little inconvenience for better performance and protection.

Oh, and Liberty's are bad ass. Here's mine.


It's got a 1/2" thick, 12"x25.5" skid under my tcases. It also protects the front and rear drivelines (to an extent; the lower links do the rest since my DLs are both above the lower links). The only overheating problems I anticipate will be having the exhaust running so close to my floorboards....but that's why they make header/exhaust wrap and floor insultation that's only 30 thousandths thick and is heat resistant to 2100º. Just route any wiring away from this area or encase it in fire-retardant loom (275º heat protection)....all these products cost less than a bill total.

Sean

***EDIT*** Any chance "Paragon" has a (I think) yellow H2 that he posted pics of on Pirate4x4.com where he was climbing Escalator? If so, I'm the same "Sean" that sent you a PM about all the a-holes making snide comments in your thread. If it's you....hope all's well. :wave: (guess you guys don't have the "wave" icon).

[HummerNewbie]

Originally posted by Sean K.:
All you guys claiming that rocks never get stuck between the factory UCP bars, obviously don't wheel where I do.

Pretty sure that nobody claimed they never get stuck between the UCP bars. That will certainly happen from time to time. I'm not going to go back through the whole thread but maybe you were referring to my comment that I know from experience that the OEM UCP will slide on rocks just fine. That was in response to a claim that they won't.

Originally posted by Sean K.:
Oh, and Liberty's are bad ass. Here's mine.

Not sure you can call that a liberty anymore
Pretty cool though

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by HummerNewbie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sean K.:
All you guys claiming that rocks never get stuck between the factory UCP bars, obviously don't wheel where I do.

Pretty sure that nobody claimed they never get stuck between the UCP bars. That will certainly happen from time to time. I'm not going to go back through the whole thread but maybe you were referring to my comment that I know from experience that the OEM UCP will slide on rocks just fine. That was in response to a claim that they won't.

Originally posted by Sean K.:
Oh, and Liberty's are bad ass. Here's mine.

Not sure you can call that a liberty anymore
Pretty cool though </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, my mistake. I didn't realize you'd take my comment about "never" so literally. I typed alot of crap above and have edited several times now to try and make it as clear as possible. Poor choice of word on my part....again, my apologies. That particular comment was really in response to, "we put 7,500lbs on a ladder-type UCP and drag it across a pointed rock with no problems."

What I meant was on the trails I've run, (and hopefully many H3s will begin running as modifications permit), it would be happening quite frequently with a ladder type support. Someone mentioned earlier about picking good lines and tire placement.....true in a perfect world, you can pick your way through and the holes in the undercarriage will be a non-issue.....but Murphy and that f<span class="ev_code_BLACK">uck</span>ed up law of his always seems to show up at the worst possible time and a tire slips off line and then you're stuck. Know what I mean?

Oh, and the hood and grill aren't even really Liberty when you get down to it.....just narrowed, custom fiberglass units from Campbell Enterprises.

Take care,
Sean

[HummerNewbie]

Originally posted by Sean K.:
Sorry, my mistake. I didn't realize you'd take my comment about "never" so literally. I typed alot of crap above and have edited several times now to try and make it as clear as possible. Poor choice of word on my part....again, my apologies. What I meant was on the trails I run, (and hopefully many H3s will begin running as modifications permit), it would be happening quite frequently. Someone mentioned earlier about picking good lines and tire placement.....true in a perfect world, you can pick your way through and the holes in the undercarriage will be a non-issue.....but Murphy and that ****ed up law of his always seems to show up at the worst possible time and a tire slips off line and then you're stuck. Know what I mean?

Oh, and the hood and grill aren't even really Liberty when you get down to it.....just narrowed, custom fiberglass units from Campbell Enterprises.

Take care,
Sean

No need to apologize for the "never"

Is your "Liberty" finished? Any pics of it on the trails. Looks pretty bad ass.

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by HummerNewbie:

No need to apologize for the "never"

Is your "Liberty" finished? Any pics of it on the trails. Looks pretty bad ass.

No, I should be working on it right now instead of screwing around on the net. It's pretty much an abortion baby anyway....no Jeep parts on it at all, lol. Hope to have it done this summer....but we'll see. I'm already WAAAAY behind schedule.

***EDIT*** Weird. Words like cockfag are not filtered on this site but the "F" word is?

Sean