magnacharger

[TheGoodHummerMan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Grim_Smoker:
"But Ed, maybe we don't want to leave it stock. Maybe the smart thing to us would be having my H2 pump out more power then my Z06, hows 1000HP sound? Heh, just kidding but just remember, to each his own."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Grim,

Soon as I read your reply I realized how badly my comments could/would be misunderstood. I sure didn't mean it isn't SMART to do mods, any mods, to your H2 or other vehicles... I just meant, smart for me to do it. REALLY!

I have owned bikes and cars that were high performance, in the past. Loved them too! But I've gradually gotten over the "need for speed", but I haven't forgotten how much I enjoyed it. For me to even suggest it isn't smart for you or others to do whatever they want to increase the H2's power would be very hypocritical of me.

I have been thinking about adding a Magnacharger to my H2 to improve its towing capabilities though, and the $7,000 it would cost to have one installed was enough to cause me to think twice. Then, when I started hearing about it voiding the H2's warranty and also needing to rebuild the BRAND NEW engine and transmission on my H2 --- that remark about it maybe not being too smart --- slipped out.

I've replaced old engines with rebuilt, higher powered engines and replaced worn out transmissions too. But somehow, spending almost 60 grand to then tear apart perfectly good (and new) engines and transmissions just won't float.

If others do this I wouldn't think it has anything to do with how smart THEY are. I'd probably be the first to admire the changes and say WOW when I saw how much difference it made to the H2's power! But, to be honest, I think I would be more inclined to buy an old muscle car and rebuild it before spending the money on boosting the H2. Maybe someone already has both? And, in any case, just like you said: TO EACH HIS OWN.

Ed

Too bad there isn't a middle of the road mod that would add enough low-rpm power to help towing, but not require rebuilding the entire drive train on the H2.

[Patriot]

I don't think that by just adding a supercharger you need to "rebuild the whole engine". There are plenty of SC's on stock engines that last a LONG time stock.

Just drive sensible and don't try to "spin all four tires"...

I'm having a whipple installed and everyone told me there was no need to rebuild or change anything.

[Grim_Smoker]

I figured you didn't really mean it like that Ed, Just pickin on ya I love muscle cars, and would love to own one, but I like new cars as well, so the Z gives me the best of both worlds!! But I would still love to own a red Judge, Orange Charger R/T, or a 70 black Chevelle with two white stripes, 454, and my own personal 1 million gallon gas supply

-Grim

2003 Sunset Metalic Orange H2 - Breathless Stage 2B, HID's, Gobi Rack & Ladder.

2003 Millenium Yellow Z06

[TheGoodHummerMan]

Okay, so will the REAL supercharger expert please stand up?

KenP said in a message dated 6-18 in this thread:
:The only things in the 6.0 that are strong enough over time with a SC are the crank and rods. Better replace or rebuild everything else w/ heavy duty parts. Especially the trans."

Patriot said in a message dated 6-21 in this thread:
"I don't think that by just adding a supercharger you need to "rebuild the whole engine". There are plenty of SC's on stock engines that last a LONG time stock."

What does "over time" mean?

What does "a LONG time" mean?

While it doesn't seem like you can BOTH be right, I would guess that IS exactly the case? If you install a supercharger on a stock engine/drive train and proceed to really USE it hard, the stock engine will probably not be able to handle it for too long? But, if you don't stick your foot in it and WOT everytime the light turns green, maybe a stock drive train and engine will be able to handle it without self-destructing?

My question, a while back was: when I'm not pulling a trailer, my H2 engine usually CRUISES along quite happily on the interstate at about 2,200 to 2300 rpm. Except for very rare instances, I do not accelerate extremely. Under these circumstances, a supercharged engine really would not be too stressful or for that matter even really be of much help?

But, say I hook a 5,000 pound trailer on the H2 and take it out on the interstate. The engine will definitely be working harder to pull the added weight but with the supercharger's help --- it won't need to run at EXTREMELY higher rpm's in order to go the same speed as when I don't pull the trailer??? Or does it?

You see, my comment about me being "smart" wasn't an exaggeration! Or should I say my NOT being smart?

Ed

What does "below the curve" mean, anyways?

[Patriot]

Ed,

I did a lot of on-line research. Superchargers online has a good tech forum.

I also know several people who have installed superchargers to stock engines. They wanted more power out of their stock engine and some better performance. Not always "getting on it" but nice to have when you need the power. More peppy all around.

Also, if every engine needed to be rebuilt, do you think mfg's like Whipple would still be in business? If motor's were crapping out after every SC install, wouldn't you see a back lash?

Check out some SC Mfg sites...they will give you the facts. I doubt they would totally mislead for fear of law suits.

I know H2Bill here has several SC's on stock vehicles...some with many miles. Maybe he could add to this?

[TheGoodHummerMan]

Patriot,

Thanks... I've researched superchargers a little and read about theory and how they work, different "types" etc. It sounds like the roots type (Eaton) is a good choice because it is effective at lower rpm ranges than some other types. I now understand what an intercooler (or aftercooler) does... but one thing I'm not sure about is what "more power under the curve" actually means.

Anyone have any ideas?

Also, if a supercharger requires using premium fuel instead of regular that's about a 13% increase just in fuel costs (or roughly about $200 more per year).

Rambling on like a mad man...

Ed

[Patriot]

Ed,

Yes, you have to weigh all the pro's and con's and decide if it's worth it for your situation.

Here in Pa, we have a lot of hills. All my driving is backroad and under 45mph. The H2 just struggles. Low power and TM keep it always looking for the right gear. I'm getting the SC to make it a bit easier on both me and the H2!

I'm not sure about your quote but if I had to take a stab at it...more power under the curve means just that..you are raising the HP and torque curve from the get go. Looking at a graph of HP and torque...you are putting "more" under the curve???

[TheGoodHummerMan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Patriot:
"Here in Pa, we have a lot of hills. All my driving is backroad and under 45mph. The H2 just struggles. Low power and TM keep it always looking for the right gear. I'm getting the SC to make it a bit easier on both me and the H2!"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're the perfect person to ask! Since superchargers "kick in" and are most effective between certain rpms, for example between 2700 and 5500 rpms --- how will a supercharger help you if you drive a lot at 45mph? No, I didn't mean to ask a stupid question, it just popped right out!

Lets say you are driving on a relative level section of that Pennsylvania backroad and the engine is not reving very high at all. At that point, the supercharger is doing pretty much nothing, right? But then, lets say you come to an uphill portion of the road. As you begin to climb the hill, the engine downshifts, revs jump and the supercharger starts "working". Instead of laboring up the hill, the H2 engine is comparatively loafing (as compared to me following you in my non-supercharged H2). Then as you crest the hill, the rpms fall back, the supercharger stops boosting and you glide downhill, almost coasting...

The WHOLE point of supercharging in THIS case, is that because the engine is getting a "boost" of air/fuel and is developing more horsepower and torque --- the engine doesn't have to strain to make it up the hill?

Is this why you "sometimes" get increased fuel mileage? Because it is developing more horsepower, it can pull a heavy trailer but not need to drop into a lower gear to do it --- thus using less fuel than given the same situation without a supercharger?

If these questions border on the far side of stupid, please excuse me. I never told anyone I was a member of Mensa...

Thanks!

Ed

[MAC]

Do they offer supercharged Hummer for test drive? $5K is a lot of money. If we can test drive a supercharged Hummer, I think we can pretty sure to tell if it is a fraud or for real or just maybe. I climb steep hill everyday and my Hummer is full of power, if I can test drive a supercharged Hummer, it won't go any faster (twisty roads) but maybe I can feel the surge of power that pin me to the seat, that would be good enough. I wonder if any Hummer dealer has one for testing?

[TheGoodHummerMan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MAC:
"Do they offer supercharged Hummer for test drive? $5K is a lot of money. If we can test drive a supercharged Hummer, I think we can pretty sure to tell if it is a fraud or for real or just maybe. I climb steep hill everyday and my Hummer is full of power, if I can test drive a supercharged Hummer, it won't go any faster (twisty roads) but maybe I can feel the surge of power that pin me to the seat, that would be good enough. I wonder if any Hummer dealer has one for testing?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good question.

I'll admit that I don't know much about superchargers (and that is an overstatement) but I think I can pretty much guess that you don't really "need" a supercharger, Mac. If while climbing your "really steep hill" everyday, your H2 is "full of power" --- you would probably not "appreciate" the extra horsepower and torque available to you from a supercharger.

But, I'll bet that if you check around, you should be able to find someone with a supercharged H2 for you to ride in?

Ed

[H2 Bill]

As Patriot mentioned, I have had and still own a '94 454 Suburban with the Whipple supercharger that is totally stock except for Doug Thorley headers. I installed it when it had 50k miles on it and it now has over 102k miles on it and it runs better than new! No, I don't go out racing every weekend, but it is really nice to have the power when you need it for towing, passing, etc. I was one of the first to install the Whipple on my H2 (before Whipple had the solution for the torque management problem) so I had the pcm custom tuned by Ed Wright. He eliminated the T/M, raised shift points, firmness,etc. and it runs now like it should have from the factory. From my experience with s/c's, for a number of years, they will not effect the dependability of your stock engine if you are not constantly "putting your foot in it"! The only downside if you can call it that is that you have to run premium fuel with the s/c.

2003 H2 Hummer, Yellow,Polished Whipple Supercharged, Edelbrock ceramics, catback,18" Ambush w/mudders,lots of goodies!
Y2K Corvette Millennium Yellow Convert/Blk/Blk, B&B headers, B&B Tri-Flo's, H-Tech MAG,GMS MAF, RM Racing TwinFlow.
1994 Chev 454 Suburban, Blown, Doug Thorley
1970 Trans Am, balanced, blue printed, Hooker ceramics

www.4swimwear.com

[TheGoodHummerMan]

H2 Bill,

What is Torque Management, anyways? Is it too complex an issue for a dummy to understand? Maybe you could explain it for me and assume I am completely ignorant?

It sounds to me as though T/M is nothing but a big pain in the BACKSIDE? Why does GM use it?

Or, is T/M really useful for "some" reasons???

I appreciate your comments very much. They are helpful to me in deciding whether or not I really want and/or need to get my H2 supercharged --- and if I will fully enjoy it after spending a considerable amount to have it installed...

But, I must say, the more I hear people talk in general, the more I hear comments about how the 6.0L engine is underpowered for such a heavy vehicle. It does seem to make a lot of sense to add a supercharger which will increase the H2's power??? Especially if someone plans on towing something which will add even MORE load on the engine...

If torque management is NOT for dummies, just say so, I'll understand that I wouldn't understand...

Ed

[H2 Bill]

Actually torque management is fairly simple. It is part of the computer program that "reads" how much torque your engine is producing and once it gets to the programs' max torque setting it backs off or retards your ignition thereby reducing the strain on your drive train. GM has been using this method of reducing drive train and transmission problems for several years now on their vehicles. Most other vehicles it happens right at the shift point but on the H2 it also occurs right when you need the torque the most. When you install the supercharger and don't eliminate the T/M it actually "magnifies" the problem.
This is certainly a simplified explanation but I hope that it helps you get the idea!
Bill

2003 H2 Hummer, Yellow,Polished Whipple Supercharged, Edelbrock ceramics, catback,18" Ambush w/mudders,lots of goodies!
Y2K Corvette Millennium Yellow Convert/Blk/Blk, B&B headers, B&B Tri-Flo's, H-Tech MAG,GMS MAF, RM Racing TwinFlow.
1994 Chev 454 Suburban, Blown, Doug Thorley
1970 Trans Am, balanced, blue printed, Hooker ceramics

www.4swimwear.com

[TheGoodHummerMan]

Bill,

Perfect! That was what I needed, a simplified explanation!!!

It sounds to me like the H2 can really benefit from re-programming the computer AND having the added horsepower and torque to "play" with?

I don't care at all about making my H2 quicker in the quarter-mile, but having the added power for towing or even for normal driving in hilly/mountainous areas sounds more and more tempting.

Thanks a lot for the info!

Ed

[H2 Bill]

Ed,
That's exactly why I did it. It makes it so much more fun and enjoyable to drive!
Bill

2003 H2 Hummer, Yellow,Polished Whipple Supercharged, Edelbrock ceramics, catback,18" Ambush w/mudders,lots of goodies!
Y2K Corvette Millennium Yellow Convert/Blk/Blk, B&B headers, B&B Tri-Flo's, H-Tech MAG,GMS MAF, RM Racing TwinFlow.
1994 Chev 454 Suburban, Blown, Doug Thorley
1970 Trans Am, balanced, blue printed, Hooker ceramics

www.4swimwear.com

[TheGoodHummerMan]

Bill,

Thanks... I started out looking into this and thought it sounded ridiculous. Then I started thinking it would be a good idea... THEN, after listening to several people here, I once again flip-flopped and decided NOT to supercharge my H2.

Now, hopefully once and for all, I have decided it really is a smart move and will increase my enjoyment of this fantastic vehicle! Your comments were indeed helpful.

Thanks again, Ed

[KenP]

Ed: After being away for a few days and reading all the posts I realize I should have been more clear at the beginning.
When I stated everything had to be rebuilt I should have stated that many other performance modes were done to my rig. Just the custom ground roller cam and 2800 stall converter alone are worth alot of power.
Maybe my rig did not need to be completely rebuilt. But I have a warranty to back the work done by LPE. I do not mean just the 36/36 offered by Magn. on the SC alone, but a drivetrain warranty from LPE good for 24/24. Much of the work can be done at the dealer for LPE.
I will say this, if you go with just the SC you will probably have minimal problems as heve been expressed here. But, remember the transmission is a very weak link and it would be in your best interest to have it upgraded.
I say Go For It. You will be amazed at the difference.

Black Lingenfelter Lux

[whipplecharged]

Ed,

When you take off from a dead stop and the vehicle doesn't take off right away that is the T/M and when it shifts and the vehicle does the same thing that is also T/M. The stock programming takes out 15-22 deg og timing neg. That GM's way of trying to save drivetrains. Instead it is a pain.

On superchargers, most have been set up for stock motors. Like the Whipple they run about 5 1/2lbs of boost to bring the HP from 316 stock toto about 435. You do have to run prem fuel but it does burn better and keeps eveything cleaner. This making the vehicle perform better and helping with increasing your fuel milage, even if not supercharged. When you use a twin screw supercharger like the Whipple you are going to get the power down low and you will use less throttle to do the same job you are doing now. This helping you increase your fuel milage and also getting the T/M out will help you to.

[TheGoodHummerMan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KenP:
"I will say this, if you go with just the SC you will probably have minimal problems as heve been expressed here. But, remember the transmission is a very weak link and it would be in your best interest to have it upgraded.
I say Go For It. You will be amazed at the difference." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ken,

Thanks for the extra info... I see what you mean and that helps lessen my concerns. From reading about Lingenfelter, it sounds like THE first class way to go...

I have seen prices of something like $3,000 (I think that's close?) for rebuilding the transmission and beefing it up for handling the extra strain imposed by a supercharger. That seems like a LOT?

How much would it cost to rebuild a transmission and beefing it up if after using the supercharger the transmission fails? Why not take the chance and just hope and wait?

I think I have definitely decided to add the MagnaCharger supercharger!

Ed

[DocH2]

What does "below the curve" mean, anyways?[/quote]

Horsepower and torque are usually draw in a curve configuration relative to RPM's.

Power "under the curve" as I understand it means that the curve is drawn higher up on the chart therefore said engine has more power "below" that curve line. If the line was drawn lower along the coordinate axis, there would be "less power under that curve".

Someone jump in here if they can make it simplier.

As for the SC question of too much strain on a stock 6.0? The stock engine isn't "engineered" for a SC. Therefore, with hard driving the system will fail sooner than without a SC. However, 5-6 psi of boost with the Magnacharger, Whipple or the Kenne Bell (which by the way looks like the best set up in some respects) is not much as my stock Volvo 740 Turbo ran 14 psi with a little tinkering (it was only 5 psi from the factory).

You probably can blow darn near 5 psi from your mouth into a stout ballon before it begins to expand. No need for extra valve springs unless you like to see 6000 rpms alot.

Just my two cents.

V