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Go Back   Hummer Forums by Elcova > General Hummer Talk > Land Use Issues

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  #1  
Old 06-20-2007, 12:26 AM
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Default Do we need a shaky outfit like Blue Ribbon Coalition?

Eagle Ridge Park here in B.C. is being closed off recreation vehicles for the next 5 years to encourage recovery and regrowth and trail repair. It was supported by even the Off-Road community by an astounding vote of 752 yes vs. 119 no with 1500+ no votes. Just got results by e-mail.

Sometimes closures are good. In 5 years it's gonna look spectacular again.
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Last edited by DennisAJC : 11-27-2007 at 06:54 AM.
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  #2  
Old 06-20-2007, 01:42 AM
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Default Re: Some closures are O.K.

Sort of like the farmer who rotates his fields. That's a good idea.
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:51 AM
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Default Re: Some closures are O.K.

I agree! It's a good idea to give the trails some time off!

This sport is getting bigger and bigger each year; and it would seem that the trail etiquette of the newbs are becoming more irresponsible every site I go to. There are many newb Jeepers, FJers, H3ers, and others that are fresh into the sport that just don't have a clue as to wth tread lightly is all about. They end up leaving broken U joints, tie rods, front diffs, garbage, and venturing out into off limits trails and private land. Some of them even post the pics of them doing it.

Each of us has the resposibility of educating them... even if it labels you as that "A hole" to correct him/ her from ruining the sport for the rest of us.
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Old 06-20-2007, 06:58 AM
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Default Re: Some closures are O.K.

In some cases that is true, but in others it is not.

The frequent violators of tread lightly standards are the old timers who resist change.

It is not uncommon to hear an oldtimer say "I've been coming here for 20 years and no one is going to tell me I can't do it anymore".

As well, a good deal of the resource damage pics I've logged are caused by motorcycles and ATV's. Mostly because they can go almost anywhere...they do.

The good thing is to recommend a training course that emphasizes Tread Lightly, Hummer Happenings are great for that.

The most important thing like you say is to help educate, donate to organization like Blue Ribbon Coalition and United Four Wheel Drive Assoiation, and to give back, if you spend time wheeling the trail, you should also spend time fixing it.
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Old 06-20-2007, 08:14 PM
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Default Re: Some closures are O.K.

The most important thing like you say is to help educate, donate to organization like Blue Ribbon Coalition and United Four Wheel Drive Assoiation, and to give back, if you spend time wheeling the trail, you should also spend time fixing it.[/quote]

Don't forget the Timgco HUMMER Support Fund. This is the most important fund at this time! 08's are due out in less than a month now.


EDIT: and if Kira reads this, it must bean AE typing this!!!
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Old 06-20-2007, 11:51 PM
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Default Re: Some closures are O.K.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HummBebe

The most important thing like you say is to help educate, donate to organization like Blue Ribbon Coalition and United Four Wheel Drive Assoiation, and to give back, if you spend time wheeling the trail, you should also spend time fixing it.

I don't think Blue Ribbon needs funding.

They really aren't the off-road enthusiast small timers they purport to be.

Quote:
In addition to membership fees, funding has historically come from timber, mining, petroleum, and motorized recreation industries. Funders have included the Alaska Forestry Association, American Forest and Paper Association, American Petroleum Institute, Boise Cascade, Battle Mountain Gold, Chevron, Colorado Mining Association, Crown Butte Mines, Exxon, Honda (US), Idaho Mining Association, Louisiana Pacific, Marathon Oil, Polaris, Potlach Corp, Rocky Mountain Oil and Gas, Ski-Doo, Suzuki, and Yamaha. (Blue Ribbon Magazine 5/1997)

http://www.commondreams.org/news2000/0620-06.htm

http://www.exxonsecrets.org/html/orgfactsheet.php?id=18

http://lowbagger.org/blueribbon.html

But yea, lots of your favorite trails have dates and weekends dedicated to picking up and maintaining trails. You still get to drive them, you just meet a lot of cool people and pick up ignorant jerks trash, it feels good.
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Old 06-21-2007, 12:07 AM
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Default Re: Some closures are O.K.

Quote:
Originally Posted by h2co-pilot
I don't think Blue Ribbon needs funding.

They really aren't the off-road enthusiast small timers they purport to be.



http://www.commondreams.org/news2000/0620-06.htm

http://www.exxonsecrets.org/html/orgfactsheet.php?id=18

http://lowbagger.org/blueribbon.html

But yea, lots of your favorite trails have dates and weekends dedicated to picking up and maintaining trails. You still get to drive them, you just meet a lot of cool people and pick up ignorant jerks trash, it feels good.


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Old 06-21-2007, 06:04 AM
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Default Re: Some closures are O.K.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HummBebe
we moved 100 cubic yards of rock into a huge mudhole that was starting to swallow rigs whole The purpose of filling this mudhole also helped maintain the water quality issues it was starting.

Why do they have to make you do the work? Can't they just fill it back on their own?
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  #9  
Old 06-21-2007, 06:11 AM
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Default Re: Some closures are O.K.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DennisAJC
Why do they have to make you do the work? Can't they just fill it back on their own?
That's pretty funny, but Blue Ribbon isn't.

They pose as a grass roots organization, when they're really represented by big oil, big coal, and big wood.

Once those trails and lands are deemed unprotected, the companies can move in, close the trails and do their biz.

Yeah, I'll really support Blue Ribbon.... Whatever...
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Old 06-21-2007, 07:07 AM
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Default Re: Some closures are O.K.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GVCOGuy
Maybe so, however, what do you guys recommend people do to help keep the trails open?

You are the forum founders so I assume you are involved and can share.
Alec? Ok, I guess it's good to hear from you.
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Old 06-21-2007, 07:21 AM
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Default Re: Some closures are O.K.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DennisAJC
Why do they have to make you do the work? Can't they just fill it back on their own?

Because, the Feds don't have the money to do it, regardless of how much money they get from our tax dollars and from "green sticker " programs. Somehow it manages to get diverted to research so the Sierra Club can force them to count those yellow legged frogs.

Their answer it to close it.

So if we pony up the labor and materials, front loaders and a lot of REALLY BIG GUYS, we maintain the trail and get to keep it open.
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Old 06-21-2007, 07:29 AM
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Default Re: Some closures are O.K.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HummBebe
Big Oil fills your H2's gas tank, Big Coal doesn't exist on the West side, but they do heat the East, and Big Wood builds all of our new HUGE McMansions here in California.

If you look deeper, BLM Land in the only land that is use to generate income for the Federal Gov. It is Land that is otherwise unfit for Human habitation, but hold resouces that the US Govenment permits these companies to use. Here in the West, it is very closely managed by the BLM, so that resources are not completely depleted.

There is no Oil drilling in National Forests. They do permit companies like Sierra Pacific Industries to cut trees in National Forests, to keep our Forests healthy.

The articles that CP posted are OLD. 1997, 2000 and the most recent 2006. For the amount of truth in the last article, you may as well be reading the NY Post. It's crap.

All the Land we are discussing here is protected and managed. The trails are being closed so the spotted owl can have more habitat, like 20 million acres is not enough. It's being closed for the Mountain yellow legged frog and for the Valley red legged frog.

Or, they are concerned about sediment getting into the lakes, from a creek that we may cross 3 miles away. Totally bogus.

Most of what BRC has done for Land use has only been since 2005. That may be who they used to be, but their direction has completely changed.


I don't see anything about oil, coal or trees in here.
J, follow the money. Who are the stake holders of, and donors to, Blue Ribbon? Don't tell me the number of donors, I want the real dollar figures broken down from individuals, PACS, corporations, lobbyists, etc.

You and Alec post the links. You're obviously talking elsewhere about this thread.

How many DUES paying members are there vs the Sierra Club?
Quote:
funding has historically come from timber, mining, petroleum, and motorized recreation industries. Funders have included the Alaska Forestry Association, American Forest and Paper Association, American Petroleum Institute, Boise Cascade, Battle Mountain Gold, Chevron, Colorado Mining Association, Crown Butte Mines, Exxon, Honda (US), Idaho Mining Association, Louisiana Pacific, Marathon Oil, Polaris, Potlach Corp, Rocky Mountain Oil and Gas, Ski-Doo, Suzuki, and Yamaha. (Blue Ribbon Magazine)
Quote:
Companies funding the Blue Ribbon Coalition are also involved in intensive lobbying efforts in Washington, DC to advance their anti-environmental agenda, including the demise of the proposed policy to protect roadless areas in our national forests. These companies have spent $46,115,748 lobbying Congress the Forest Service and other federal agencies in during the period the Administration has been working on a roadless area proposal (1997 ? 1999), and have had 146 lobbyists on average working on their behalf during this period.
J, I state again, that I believe your heart is in the right place so please show me NEW info that BRC has changed since LAST YEAR. Show me they are not accepting money from these same companies.

We're all for preserving what little we've got and hopefully expanding to new areas, but from what I'm reading BRC isn't the place to put the cash.

I believe that working with environmental groups to come up with a mutually acceptable plan would be most acceptable and palatable to all. Find a common ground among groups. Work with the Nature Conservatory and the Sierra Club. Both of those need to be educated and understand what Tread Lightly really means.
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  #13  
Old 06-21-2007, 07:33 AM
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Default Re: Some closures are O.K.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GVCOGuy
Thanks Ken, I?m doing good and I hope you and Suzan are keeping well.


So how come you are so interested in Western trail management now? You never used to be but I like the new attitude. Keep it up.
It's important all trails are kept open, or "rotated". However, there are other forces at work out there. There are other more powerful stakeholders out there and its important everyone understands where their cash is going. Where their efforts are really being focused. Where those online petitions are being put forth.

So many things are not what they seem.

Who are the stakeholders? Those are the one's trying to benefit in one way or the other.

Post them up.
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Old 06-21-2007, 07:43 AM
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Default Re: Some closures are O.K.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GVCOGuy
Don?t assume anything Ken, there are no hidden threads. I pail in comparison to what Jac does to be honest. All I do is donate.
I didn't mean a hidden thread here.

Donating is great. Just do it to the proper organizations that have the same goal as you.

I'm not convinced at all that BRC is right for the ORV community. There are alterior motives there that have been plainly posted.

Communication is the key.

If ORV groups would communicate with the large, true, conservators, I believe compromises, and benefits for both could be worked out.
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Old 06-21-2007, 07:45 AM
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Default Re: Some closures are O.K.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenP
Who are the stakeholders? Those are the one's trying to benefit in one way or the other.

Post them up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlecW
I agree. Who are they other than CPs links from over a decade ago.
2006 was just a few months ago.

Anyway, I ask you and J to post a new list of the current stakeholders in BRC.
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Old 06-21-2007, 07:52 AM
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Default Re: Some closures are O.K.

It's late, I'm going to bed and look forward to links to the stakeholders of BRC.Better yet, how about links to more reputable organizations that are actually looking out for the ORV-end-use user.I'll say it again, I believe J's heart is in the right place, but BRC is the wrong place to put the love.If I'm wrong, please show it so we can move on, donate, and contribute.
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Old 06-21-2007, 07:53 AM
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Default Re: Some closures are O.K.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GVCOGuy
I actually agree with you Ken. I donate to weird **** because I know no better. I have donated to:
BRC
COHVCO
Pirate 4x4
Rubicon (yeah I?ll never go there)
Hummer X Club (they re-donate the $)


Not a lot of $, tops $500 in 3 years really.

What do you recommend as a "proper" org Ken?
Just quoting to respond tomorrow.
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Old 06-21-2007, 11:39 AM
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Default Re: Some closures are O.K.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HummBebe
Big Oil fills your H2's gas tank, Big Coal doesn't exist on the West side, but they do heat the East, and Big Wood builds all of our new HUGE McMansions here in California.

If you look deeper, BLM Land in the only land that is use to generate income for the Federal Gov. It is Land that is otherwise unfit for Human habitation, but hold resouces that the US Govenment permits these companies to use. Here in the West, it is very closely managed by the BLM, so that resources are not completely depleted.

There is no Oil drilling in National Forests. They do permit companies like Sierra Pacific Industries to cut trees in National Forests, to keep our Forests healthy.

The articles that CP posted are OLD. 1997, 2000 and the most recent 2006. For the amount of truth in the last article, you may as well be reading the NY Post. It's crap.

All the Land we are discussing here is protected and managed. The trails are being closed so the spotted owl can have more habitat, like 20 million acres is not enough. It's being closed for the Mountain yellow legged frog and for the Valley red legged frog.

Or, they are concerned about sediment getting into the lakes, from a creek that we may cross 3 miles away. Totally bogus.

Most of what BRC has done for Land use has only been since 2005. That may be who they used to be, but their direction has completely changed.


I don't see anything about oil, coal or trees in here.

Whoa. Easy now. You could have just said something earlier.

I just remembered hearing something about them and googling it. The more I read, the more shocking it became. Maybe you are right, maybe that's all they do. Maybe they don't get donations from them anymore, or skeem for those companies.

But it's scary to think that it may be an organization for some of those companies. That they might be doing that behind the scenes.

There is are different motives for some to keep land "public" and not "protected". Small changes in any law can allow land to later be used for logging/mining/development whatever- and you can't have a trail through any of those. It would be public for no one.

Those companies wouldn't donate just for the heck of it. But yea, maybe they stopped. (?)

Quote:
Companies funding the Blue Ribbon Coalition are also involved in intensive lobbying efforts in Washington, DC to advance their anti-environmental agenda, including the demise of the proposed policy to protect roadless areas in our national forests. These companies have spent $46,115,748 lobbying Congress the Forest Service and other federal agencies in during the period the Administration has been working on a roadless area proposal (1997 — 1999), and have had 146 lobbyists on average working on their behalf during this period.


The political action committees (PACs) of companies funding the Blue Ribbon Coalition are also actively funding candidates, having contributed $ 1,833,241 to candidates -- $1,767,416 to current members of Congress and $65,825 to presidential candidates Governor George W. Bush and Vice President Al Gore in the last three and half years (1997 — May, 2000). Top recipients in the House include: (1) Helen Chenoweth-Hage ($42,242); (2) Michael Simpson ($33,500); and (3) Don Young ($33,227). In the Senate the top three recipients are: (1) Michael Crapo ($48,950); (2) George Voinovich ($34,675); and (3) Ben Nighthorse Campbell ($28,500).


And it's not just the "west", it's everywhere.

Quote:
The current draft roadless area proposal prohibits new roads from being built in roadless areas in national forests, including 109,000 acres in Virginia’s forests, but, contrary to the rhetoric of the Blue Ribbon Coalition, does not exclude off-road vehicle use from roadless areas.

They seemed to be on the extreme side, just as ELF is on the other side. Protecting the environment is a good thing. Big companies are shameless, I was looking on the side of caution while the name was brought up.

Sorry it offended you and Alec.

And when I suggested the apparently low task of "picking up trash", I was suggesting what some of us can do. I also mentioned maintence as well and some trails out this way use large equipment for maintenance. Tellico uses huge a huge 5 ton and other equipment for some of theirs - hence Tellico adding the extra $5.00 to the admission fee which you thought was such a big deal here:

http://www.elcovaforums.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=24758

I am sorry I said something in this thread. I didn't mean for some people to get all schizo.
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Old 06-21-2007, 11:53 AM
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Default Re: Some closures are O.K.

Oh yea, I just checked my email. I guess my mere single post last night warranted this email from Alec.

Quote:
Don?t think I won?t fuck with you if you keep attacking Jac Susan. She makes you look like an idiot when it comes to keeping trails open out here in the west.

Do not fuck with us on this. K?



BTW feel free to post this to the goons


I didn't think I was attacking but thanks, Bitch.
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Old 06-21-2007, 01:59 PM
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Default Re: Some closures are O.K.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GVCOGuy
Like the liberal media you try to distract when you can?t argue a point. What was with the links from the 1990?s and 2000? Jac answered the 2006 issue already.
Where?

Alec, after all this time I was hoping you'd grown out of your schitzoid psycho drunk rants, but I guess you haven't.

Back on point, no one was attacking anyone. J pointed out the BRC as a place to donate to, we brought up counter-productive issues with the BRC. That's called debate and totally warranted when it involves something as important as keeping trails open, and/or opening new ones/closing old ones.

Now if you want to defend a lobbying group that is supported by big business, re: controlled by big business, then go ahead. But when those trails you're defending become unusable by the recreational off roader because business's are now using the trails as roads to move oil, timber and other resources, don't come crying here. The BRC won't be there for you.

The BRC is using new legislation to take over those lands it wants open.

Didn't you read anything?
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