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Go Back   Hummer Forums by Elcova > Hummer H3 Discussion Forums > Technical Discussion and Customizing your H3

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  #21  
Old 10-11-2006, 12:39 AM
DURAMAX TIM DURAMAX TIM is offline
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Default Re: Any feel like having a tuning discussion?

I use EFI LIVE for my dmax and it does a great job, hoping that they will work on the H3 soon.

A lot of guys on another forum use it and we trade files, plus my vendor sent me a 500+ RWHP race tune for my truck once the tranny gets upgraded.

diesels are much easier to play w/ AF doesn't matter really.

I've got a tune right now that gives me 60hp and 4 mpg better fuel mileage as long as u stay under 72mph.

It gets addicting playing w/ the tuning to see what u can do, the speed limiter and redline was the first things to change plus calibrate the speedo.
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  #22  
Old 10-11-2006, 03:34 AM
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HOKIE W/HUMMER HOKIE W/HUMMER is offline
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Default Re: Any feel like having a tuning discussion?

CHP,
I'm really interested in your programming results, so keep the updates coming. So where would an owner search for a reputable programmer that we could trust to develop a "custom" program for our H3?
Hokie
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  #23  
Old 10-11-2006, 03:47 AM
DURAMAX TIM DURAMAX TIM is offline
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Default Re: Any feel like having a tuning discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HOKIE W/HUMMER
CHP,
I'm really interested in your programming results, so keep the updates coming. So where would an owner search for a reputable programmer that we could trust to develop a "custom" program for our H3?
Hokie

do it your self?
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07 White H3 Adventure w/ some black stuff
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98 ZR-2 Blazer
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My hiking boots and canoe paddle have more miles than most 'offroad' vehicles, over 350 in last year.
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  #24  
Old 10-11-2006, 04:28 PM
ChevyHighPerformance ChevyHighPerformance is offline
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Default Re: Any feel like having a tuning discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DURAMAX TIM
I use EFI LIVE for my dmax and it does a great job, hoping that they will work on the H3 soon.

A lot of guys on another forum use it and we trade files, plus my vendor sent me a 500+ RWHP race tune for my truck once the tranny gets upgraded.

diesels are much easier to play w/ AF doesn't matter really.

I've got a tune right now that gives me 60hp and 4 mpg better fuel mileage as long as u stay under 72mph.

It gets addicting playing w/ the tuning to see what u can do, the speed limiter and redline was the first things to change plus calibrate the speedo.

I know what you mean. I keep tweaking and tweaking when I'm probably way beyond the point of diminishing returns. I'm having fun - I'm a nerd.
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  #25  
Old 10-11-2006, 04:41 PM
ChevyHighPerformance ChevyHighPerformance is offline
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Default Re: Any feel like having a tuning discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HOKIE W/HUMMER
CHP,
I'm really interested in your programming results, so keep the updates coming. So where would an owner search for a reputable programmer that we could trust to develop a "custom" program for our H3?
Hokie

Alvin from PCMforLess is tuning the H3's now. Typically you pay a deposit for a loaner PCM (which is sent to you first) and tuning. You remove your PCM, install the loaner, and send your PCM to them to tune. Then exchange the stuff when they ship your PCM back to you.

We use the same tuning program - so they sent me one of their tunes electronically to check out. I'm going to evaluate the tune in 3 stages:

1) Look at the actual tune - what and how tables were modified,etc. - This lets you gauge how the tuner made improvments, the tuner's philospohy, etc.

2) Install the tune and run a few tanks of gas through. SOTP testing, MPG testing, etc.

3) If I have time, I'll do a before and after dyno.

I plan on posting the results here as well as how my own tune is coming along.
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  #26  
Old 10-11-2006, 09:49 PM
DURAMAX TIM DURAMAX TIM is offline
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Default Re: Any feel like having a tuning discussion?

does HP list the history of changes made to a tune?

efi does, so even w/ different OS all I have to do is write down all the tables that are changed then cut and paste.

It is fun to play, dad wants me to tune his 99 vette now.
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My hiking boots and canoe paddle have more miles than most 'offroad' vehicles, over 350 in last year.
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  #27  
Old 10-11-2006, 11:43 PM
ChevyHighPerformance ChevyHighPerformance is offline
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Default Re: Any feel like having a tuning discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DURAMAX TIM
does HP list the history of changes made to a tune?

efi does, so even w/ different OS all I have to do is write down all the tables that are changed then cut and paste.

It is fun to play, dad wants me to tune his 99 vette now.

HPTuners maintains a complete history log for your file. It shows when you made the change and what you changed.
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  #28  
Old 10-11-2006, 11:57 PM
ChevyHighPerformance ChevyHighPerformance is offline
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Default Re: Any feel like having a tuning discussion?

Another update. I just added about 15 gallons of gas. The MPG was 14.7. My driving is 100% city with trips less than 5 miles and hilly roads.

Previous MPG data:

1) With the modified aftermarket air box, ported throttle body, exhaust and a couple other little things I was getting a solid 13.5 MPG.

2) I faked the Inlet Air Temperature sensor (IAT) out with a resistor and added resistance in series with the Engine Coolant Temperature sensor (ECT) to get more timing. With the resistors, I would get between 14 (mostly) to 14.5 MPG.

The resistors were removed for the latest test since I had direct program control and I didn't need to "trick" the PCM.

During this 15 gal test run:

1) I modified the shift trajectory several times part way through. So the full effect of this is not known.

2) I made many wide open throttle (WOT) runs to check on timing, knock retard, and tranny shifting. The WOT runs hurt the MPG.

3) It's been colder so I idle more in the mornings before I pull out which hurts MPG.

The results are encouraging but this is just one data point.
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  #29  
Old 10-12-2006, 04:54 PM
H3.007 H3.007 is offline
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Default Re: Any feel like having a tuning discussion?

F5 - Are these tunes legit? If so, why wouldn't GM be offering them? I just happened to see a show the other day where an ASE Tech Inspector witnessed an HP test at GM. It was really cool how they did it... Glad to know that such tech claims are third party regulated (kinda like a UL for the auto industry and no offense to GM). This keeps everyone honest...
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  #30  
Old 10-12-2006, 09:03 PM
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Default Re: Any feel like having a tuning discussion?

Having worked for several major Tech Companys. R&D has deadlines and comitments on projects. Often they do not own or have significant interest in products in the pipeline. They kick products out the door. Under the Just in time banner, ready or not. GM has great people however my moneys on CHP to tweak this thing since he has ownership and apparently commitment.
The H3 is still young and has some growing to do...Its a great machine but like the 55 chevy there still may be some tweaking to discover and have fun with!!
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Last edited by wpage : 10-12-2006 at 09:05 PM.
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  #31  
Old 10-13-2006, 01:55 AM
ChevyHighPerformance ChevyHighPerformance is offline
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Default Re: Any feel like having a tuning discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by H3.007
F5 - Are these tunes legit? If so, why wouldn't GM be offering them? I just happened to see a show the other day where an ASE Tech Inspector witnessed an HP test at GM. It was really cool how they did it... Glad to know that such tech claims are third party regulated (kinda like a UL for the auto industry and no offense to GM). This keeps everyone honest...

I know you didn't ask me, but I feel the tunes are legit. I just loaded Alvin's tune (from PCMforLess) and the idle was very smooth and the low end torque boost is impressive (it was much better than my custom tune). Throttle is very responsive down low.
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  #32  
Old 10-13-2006, 03:38 PM
H3.007 H3.007 is offline
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Default Re: Any feel like having a tuning discussion?

CHP - how long did it take you to complete this process?
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  #33  
Old 10-13-2006, 09:49 PM
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Default Re: Any feel like having a tuning discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by H3.007
CHP - how long did it take you to complete this process?

The initial tune took about an hour to modify tables for a baseline. Then to "calibrate" the MAF took about 1/2 hour. Modifiying the shifting tables is 10 minutes each time, but then I go for a 20 minute ride to see how it feels then tweak again.

From looking at Alvin's tune (from PCMforLess) there is more I could/should have done. For example, I modified the timing tables by adding timing evenly everywhere. Alvin's timing table shows that he did additional work in certain locations above what I did, and he modified some tables that I missed.

I guess to start from scratch and to produce what Alvin did would take several days of tweaking and road testing.

Was this what you were looking for?
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  #34  
Old 10-14-2006, 01:25 AM
DURAMAX TIM DURAMAX TIM is offline
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Default Re: Any feel like having a tuning discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by H3.007
F5 - Are these tunes legit? If so, why wouldn't GM be offering them?

GM and others are after emissions stuff 1st and reliabilty/warranty 2nd (maybe).

got to keep the epa happy.

that's why they have so much torque management off idle, save parts I'm sure.

I know on the diesels it used to be u had to roll out black smoke to make power but w/ EFI we can make more power and very little smoke.

stock Dmax (LLY) is close to 600 rwhp or more w/ tuning and diesel only.
year ago 500 was really tough to get.
but an allison will only handle 350-400 though w/o upgrades.
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My hiking boots and canoe paddle have more miles than most 'offroad' vehicles, over 350 in last year.
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  #35  
Old 10-14-2006, 02:43 AM
ChevyHighPerformance ChevyHighPerformance is offline
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Default Re: Any feel like having a tuning discussion?

Here is some new fuel economy test data.

First, the goal was to test my modified tranny shift table versus the one supplied from Alvin in his tune.

There are two elements to fuel economy: acceleration efficiency and cruise efficiency.

CRUISE EFFICIENCY

For highway traveling, the goal is to maximize the cruise efficiency. For example, for a typical vehicle the amount of gas it takes to accelerate from 0 to 60 MPH is about the same amount required to keep the vehicle traveling 60 MPH for about a mile. So you can see that when you are traveling many miles the amount of gas used to accelerate you is very small compared the amount of gas you?ll use to keep you at speed for many miles. This sets up my first test for which everyone probably already knows the results. I ran the H3 at two fixed speeds (40 MPH and 44 MPH) in both 3rd and 4th gear and measured the rate at which the gas is consumed. (The gas volume was measured and since the temperature was constant for all tests the volume is reflective of the mass of gas used.)

3rd gear:

40 MPH - fuel utilization rate = 3.38u/s

44 MPH - fuel utilization rate = 3.92u/s

4th gear:

40 MPH - fuel utilization rate = 2.90u/s

44 MPH - fuel utilization rate = 3.05u/s

u/s is a scaled volume of gas used per second

The conclusion here is that if you are cruising you want to be in the highest gear with the torque converter locked. My guess is that even though the drivetrain efficiency is higher in 3rd than 4th gear, the higher engine parasitic losses associated with the higher RPMs in 3rd than 4th gear dominated the fuel rate utilization.

ACCELERATION EFFICIENCY

For city traveling, the goal is to maximize the acceleration efficiency. If you are starting and stopping every block then the amount of gas used to accelerate the vehicle will dominate the fuel consumption and MPG. The trick the hybrids do is absorb energy and store it during braking; then use this stored energy to accelerate the hybrid. This is why the hybrids do proportionally better in the city than the highway.

I ran the H3 at three different constant throttle positions (35%, 45%, and 55%) and measured the total fuel volume used when going from 20 to 50 MPH. (The gas volume was measured and since the temperature was constant for all tests the volume is reflective of the mass of gas used.) I ran this test for both my tranny shift tables and Alvin?s tranny shift tables.

My tranny table

35% throttle: time=28.8 sec, total gas used = 3583u total

45% throttle: time=15.8 sec, total gas used = 2945u total

55%+ throttle: time=13.1 sec, total gas used = 2567u total

Alvin?s tranny table

35% throttle: time=29.3 sec, total gas used = 3803u total

45% throttle: time=12.0 sec, total gas used = 2473u total

55% throttle: time=11.1 sec, total gas used = 2508u total

u total is a scaled amount that represents the total gas volume used

Because it was difficult to precisely hold the throttle in a fixed position there is some variance (maybe +/- 5%) about each time and total fuel used data point. There are two conclusions from this test: 1) Alvin?s table resulted in less fuel consumption than mine and 2) the more throttle you use to accelerate (within reason) the less fuel you use. This goes against the EPA?s advice to not accelerate fast when pulling out because you?ll waste gas. I think the reason why the higher throttle resulted in less total fuel being used is due to the lower pumping losses associated with larger throttle positions thereby increasing the engine?s overall efficiency. Basically, your engine doesn?t have to work as hard to suck air into the engine when the throttle body is open more.

I think the key is learning how to drive based on how the tranny tables are set up. I think my tables are better for cruise (highway) and Alvin's are better for acceleration (city).
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  #36  
Old 10-14-2006, 04:57 PM
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Default Re: Any feel like having a tuning discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevyHighPerformance
My opinion only -> There are two major "flaws" in the stock PCM programming. One effects long-term engine durability and the other "flaw" I have never seen before in any other programs and makes even less sense to do this on the H3. The one flaw doesn't exist in the Colorado I5 tune which makes this confusing.

OK, the first item is the AC. The scenario is that you are trying to accelerate quickly onto a highway and the AC is on. On the vettes, f-bodies, etc. the AC will kick out above a certain RPM and throttle position. We all know the H3 doesn't have excess power but the AC never kicks off. Even though the AC takes a few HP when cruising it robs a bunch more at high RPMs. So I think the AC should kick off above perhaps 60% throttle and maybe 4000 - 4500 RPMs to reduce engine drag to get you accelerated quicker and I think would reduce wear on the AC compressor (maybe not the clutch though). When you drop below these setting the AC re-engages. During the 5 - 10 seconds while the AC is off, I don't think the cabin is going to get that hot so your balls stick to your leg. Every pro tuner I talked to agreed with this and doesn something similar for their tunes.

The other item needs some background. The engine operates in many modes but the two of issue is part throttle and WOT (wide open throttle). During part throttle, the PCM monitors the pre-cat O2 sensor and effectively adjusts the injector pulse width to maintain a 14.7:1 A/F ratio. The 14.7:1 A/F results in the lowest overall emissions and good fuel economy (best fuel economy is at about 15:1 A/F). During WOT or power enrichment, the PCM richens the A/F, provides more timing, and uses different auto tranny shift points for more power and maximum acceleration.

The boundary between these two mode is based on the throttle position. The vettes, f-bodies, I5 colorado/canyon, etc. enter WOT above 80% throttle. The H3 enters WOT above 94% throttle. I can see how minimizing undesired excursions into WOT will help fuel economy. The other issue is that running the engine pretty much flat out (93.9 % throttle) at such a lean A/F. I talked to several pro tuners about this and there was not unified position. One tuner gave an example (keep in mind the A/F for max power is about 13.1:1) that you could tune WOT for 13.1: and you'd make great power but the life of the engine is going to be reduced and 14.7 at essentially WOT is going in the wrong direction - so this tuner keeps the the WOT A/F to about 12.8ish and bumps up when you enter WOT (lower throttle position). Another tuner said that with the stock programming when you go to WOT the PCM delays several seconds already (so you are running at 14.7:1 at WOT) before power enrichment starts anyway. I don't know who is truly correct. I guess it depends on how you drive. For example, if I told you to press on the throttle and tell me what percentage you are at (0 - 100%) you might say 40% when you are actually at 70%. I am going to log some data and see what %throttle normally drive at and what peaks I hit when I don't want to goto WOT. I'll then set the WOT entry to be above the maximum I use when I drive.
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  #37  
Old 10-14-2006, 10:18 PM
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Default Re: Any feel like having a tuning discussion?

CHP,
This is alot to digest. Your baselines are reaching the high end of where I am willing to go on this topic. Are you still working on a basicly stock engine? Cat Back Exhaust? Intake Mods? Some of this may be skewed for some of us. Please digress if you would to keep us on track with your tests...
This is interesting data. However getting deeper.
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  #38  
Old 10-15-2006, 12:04 AM
ChevyHighPerformance ChevyHighPerformance is offline
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Default Re: Any feel like having a tuning discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wpage
CHP,
This is alot to digest. Your baselines are reaching the high end of where I am willing to go on this topic. Are you still working on a basicly stock engine? Cat Back Exhaust? Intake Mods? Some of this may be skewed for some of us. Please digress if you would to keep us on track with your tests...
This is interesting data. However getting deeper.

Stock engine with main mods: after market cold air intake, ported throttle body, and cat back exhaust.
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  #39  
Old 10-15-2006, 12:13 PM
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Default Re: Any feel like having a tuning discussion?

CHP,
Thanks for clarity. Did you opt to keep your stock Tuning set up on the flash upgrade as a fall back? Or take the plunge and trade in for the performance tune?
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  #40  
Old 10-15-2006, 04:50 PM
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Default Re: Any feel like having a tuning discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wpage
CHP,
Thanks for clarity. Did you opt to keep your stock Tuning set up on the flash upgrade as a fall back? Or take the plunge and trade in for the performance tune?

How HPTuners works is that you first read in your stock program through the diagnostic port and save it on your laptop using the HPTuners interface. Then you edit the stock program using a PCM editor program (comes with HPTuners). Then reload your modifed program. You still have the stock program to reload at any time. It takes less than a minute to load a program to your PCM.

HPTuners also comes with a OBDII scanner that lets you monitor/log all of the PCM parameters (no BCM, ABS, etc.), view diagnostic trouble codes, clear codes, etc. that you can use with any GM OBDII vehicles. For the vehicles that you have licenses for you can control the PCM on the fly. For example, you can change the commanded A/F, timing, turn off/on things like the fuel pump, peform a CASE relearn, cylinder balance, etc.
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