Locker in 4 hi and TCS/TSC2 question.

[johndjmix1]

In this months 4 wheeler mag they explained how to wire the rear locker in a truck (toyota i think) to work independantly of everything. Anyone done this on the h2?

Now before you guys start going with "you want to blow up your diff...." stuff...I realise the risks, but if driven properly its really not a problem. I had an ARB in my old ford pickup year ago. Never had any explosions.

I dont really understand the tcs/tsc2 and touching the brake. From what I understand with the button off (TCS) the h2 computer will brake spinning wheels to get traction. When the button is engaged (tcs2) the hummer will not do this and just allow wheel spin (Good for momentum in mud and such, but would be a disadvantage at low speeds). Am I correct on all that?

Now if thats correct, why would you want to use the brake pedal to disengage the system when you could just hit the button? Confused.

--John

[KenP]

I have never, ever hit that TC button. When the heck should I ever use it? Going through sand and mud? http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Seriously, I've NEVER touched that thing in either truck. I'm also usually covering the brake on muddy rocks and such.

[johndjmix1]

I don't get why you would want to hit the brake to disengauge it...sounds like keeping it on is EXACTLY what you would want.

Yea, I know the locker is just an eaton e-locker, so I guess someone has to tell me where that wire terminates and ill just cut it and set up a switch to triger the solinoid.

--John

[Dewi2005]

Originally posted by PhilD:
Sand, mud, any loose surface. In mud you want the wheels to spin to "clean" out, TC2 allows for more spin. In sand, you can get stuck simply because you have one spinning wheel, TC2 will help. Etc, etc.

Sometimes though TCS/TC2 will bring you to a stop, as it not only applies the brakes to the spinning wheel(s), but also limits rpm to 2000 or so. I've become stuck in sand simply because of TCS/TC2. Covering the brake slightly deactivates TCS/TC2 amd let's me go on my merry way. Using 1st gear can also help sometimes too.

OK.. just to make sure we are all talking the same thing.

TC2 = allows additional wheel spin: Must be activated via the TC2 button on the dash.

TCS = applies brakes to spinning wheel(s) and limits RPM to ~2000. TCS is on by default, but can be deactivated by slightly depressing the brake enough to illuminate the brake lamps.

[MarineHawk]

btm
What's BTM?

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Dewi2005:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhilD:
Sand, mud, any loose surface. In mud you want the wheels to spin to "clean" out, TC2 allows for more spin. In sand, you can get stuck simply because you have one spinning wheel, TC2 will help. Etc, etc.

Sometimes though TCS/TC2 will bring you to a stop, as it not only applies the brakes to the spinning wheel(s), but also limits rpm to 2000 or so. I've become stuck in sand simply because of TCS/TC2. Covering the brake slightly deactivates TCS/TC2 amd let's me go on my merry way. Using 1st gear can also help sometimes too.

OK.. just to make sure we are all talking the same thing.

TC2 = allows additional wheel spin: Must be activated via the TC2 button on the dash.

TCS = applies brakes to spinning wheel(s) and limits RPM to ~2000. TCS is on by default, but can be deactivated by slightly depressing the brake enough to illuminate the brake lamps. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>chu got it man

[MarineHawk]

I have used the TC2 already when on some mushy stuff. It seems to work better, but I have no empirical evidence yet. I've also covered the brake as per Phil's suggestion, which also seems to work best on mud. As Phil said, only put enough pressure on the brake to get the lights to come on without actually breaking. You can probably get a feel for how much pressure is required by touching the breaks when you have the cruise control on. A light touch will deactiviate the cruise, but, I think, you are not really engaging the brake pad significantly, if at all.

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by MarineHawk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">btm
What's BTM? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Brake-Throttle Modulate

2 foot driving. Controlling forward progress by keeping the engine at relatively the same RPM but using the brake to control your movement.

It limits wheel spin even better than TCS, makes going over obstacles much more controlled and easier.

[MarineHawk]

Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MarineHawk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">btm
What's BTM? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Brake-Throttle Modulate

2 foot driving. Controlling forward progress by keeping the engine at relatively the same RPM but using the brake to control your movement.

It limits wheel spin even better than TCS, makes going over obstacles much more controlled and easier. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting. Sounds like that would take some practice.

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by MarineHawk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MarineHawk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">btm
What's BTM? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Brake-Throttle Modulate

2 foot driving. Controlling forward progress by keeping the engine at relatively the same RPM but using the brake to control your movement.

It limits wheel spin even better than TCS, makes going over obstacles much more controlled and easier. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting. Sounds like that would take some practice. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>parking lot curbs or any kind of curb hopping is good practice.

controlling taking a tire up the face of an obstacle and then bringing it back down without a lot of wheel-spin and lurching.

BTM is one of the best things about having an auto vs. some of the Jeeps and other rigs that you see out on the trail. Other rigs running standard trannys can't really BTM or they will stall, so you see them getting all of the wheel spin and hop. With the auto tranny, we can BTM and where it's possible, control the truck much better on the obstacle.

[PARAGON]

that and we have heated seats http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[PARAGON]

Actually I was serious about the curbs.

After seeing a few new people trying it, you could tell they were just having a hard time getting a feel for how much pressure and the timing and how much to release the brake, etc.

Really, they can run out to any parking lot or anywhere with a curb or anything they can take all 4 tires over and get used to feeling for that timing and everything.

My idea is to simulate being on the trail where you are going over the rocks, not completing an obstacle.

[PARAGON]

FWIW, I BTM all the time and always have. Anything that would get the truck bouncing or where you would get a lot of wheel spin or where it is very uneven rocky terrain, I am controlling forward progress the entire time by the amount of pressure I have applied to the brakes, even if it is a severe uphill climb over rocky terrain.

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by PhilD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
Actually I was serious about the curbs. I know you were http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I wouldn't use BTM to drive over a curb though, nor would I use BTM to drive a trail with curb size rocks, just drive slowly.

Now if you could get the curbs spaced so you had different wheels going up and down at the same time, that would be much better practice. Barring that, larger blocks/walls etc would allow you to practice the skill a whole a lot better than you could on a curb .

Either way, getting a feeling of how to control movemnet over rocky terrain, by using a curb or bigger, is a good thing to try out a couple of times. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree.

Actually, curb isn't the best example. Those parking bumpers is what I was referring to. And going over them at an angle would be the point.

That would be the most readily available "obstacle" for someone to go try the idea out on.

I also wouldn't use BTM over curb-sized rocks. But for someone to go outside today and find something to try this on and go up and over and "feel" it, the little bumpers in parking lots is the most commonly available thing I could think of that someone could run over just about anywhere.

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by PhilD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
the little bumpers in parking lots Can everyone please make sure they do not post pictures of themselves doing this, they will be on Jeep forums all over the World in the blink of an eye http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If you break a tie rod doing it, please remain silent http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That is a good point. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Go find a wooded trail and find a fallen log to try it out on, that way you are less susceptible to be videoed.

If ever questioned about what you are doing in either case, just say that you are "breaking in" the side walls of you tires so that they are more flexible.

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by PhilD:
If you break a tie rod doing it, please remain silent http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif It is advisable to upgrade to these tie rods (http://www.trailduty.com/products/fabtech/index.html) before attempting any of these moves.

[johndjmix1]

I know the perfect spot for this, behind walmart off rt 34. Actually its like that field we went to last weekend but 30 times as big.

--John

[Boss Hoss]

Originally posted by PhilD:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by PARAGON:
I wouldn't use BTM to drive over a curb though, nor would I use BTM to drive a trail with curb size rocks, just drive slowly.


I actually think Paragon is right about the curb. Its really just to get the feel for using your left foot...also switch driving foot from right foot to left or vise versa in daily driving will give you better "touch". I was using BTM(in Tellico) to go over rocks esp knowing i had a nice drop off and was mostly going to hit my ucp. How effective was I? Probably not very effect as i did not have the practice under my belt for two foot driving. To me it felt awkward but had i used my left foot prior to getting there im sure i wouldve been more successful.

[Hummie2]

Originally posted by johndjmix1:
I don't get why you would want to hit the brake to disengauge it...sounds like keeping it on is EXACTLY what you would want.

Yea, I know the locker is just an eaton e-locker, so I guess someone has to tell me where that wire terminates and ill just cut it and set up a switch to triger the solinoid.

--John

When you cut into the wire make sure you don't defeat the diode in the circuit. The diode is supposed to be in there to control transient voltages that generate in the electric coil of the locker when you switch the locker off. Those transient voltage spikes just love to find their way back to computer modules and blow chips. That is why you always see diodes on coils like A/C clutches, winch solenoids, etc.

I am actuall giving serious consideration to removing my rear E-locker and going back with a Detroit Locker. Much stronger setup IMO. Detroit Lockers are about the only thing on a 4X4 that I haven't been able to destroy. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[ROX]

Cool. I didn't realize TC2 allows for more rpm's before the brake engages. I thought it turned the Traction control off completely. When I'm in sand and mud I turn TC2 on and drive in 4 lo, 2nd gear cuz it gets me moving quicker than 4hi, 1st gear. Especially on steep hills.
The only thing that turns it off completely is the brake light. Couldn't they give us a switch for that too?

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by H2 Rocks:
Cool. I didn't realize TC2 allows for more rpm's before the brake engages. I thought it turned the Traction control off completely. When I'm in sand and mud I turn TC2 on and drive in 4 lo, 2nd gear cuz it gets me moving quicker than 4hi, 1st gear. Especially on steep hills.
The only thing that turns it off completely is the brake light. Couldn't they give us a switch for that too? They did, it's called the ABS fuse. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Dewi2005]

Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by H2 Rocks:
Cool. I didn't realize TC2 allows for more rpm's before the brake engages. I thought it turned the Traction control off completely. When I'm in sand and mud I turn TC2 on and drive in 4 lo, 2nd gear cuz it gets me moving quicker than 4hi, 1st gear. Especially on steep hills.
The only thing that turns it off completely is the brake light. Couldn't they give us a switch for that too? They did, it's called the ABS fuse. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A switch could easily be added to engage the brake lights and accomplish this without touching the brake.

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Dewi2005:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by H2 Rocks:
Cool. I didn't realize TC2 allows for more rpm's before the brake engages. I thought it turned the Traction control off completely. When I'm in sand and mud I turn TC2 on and drive in 4 lo, 2nd gear cuz it gets me moving quicker than 4hi, 1st gear. Especially on steep hills.
The only thing that turns it off completely is the brake light. Couldn't they give us a switch for that too? They did, it's called the ABS fuse. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A switch could easily be added to engage the brake lights and accomplish this without touching the brake. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Not quite that simple.

It's not the brake lights that give it the signal. It's the switch on the brake pedal arm that disengages the shifter interlock, engages the switch for the brake lights and tells the BUS system that brakes are being applied.

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by PhilD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
It's not the brake lights that give it the signal. It's the switch on the brake pedal arm that disengages the shifter interlock, engages the switch for the brake lights and tells the BUS system that brakes are being applied. Still be pretty simple, just have a switch wired to bypass the pedal switch. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I haven't actually looked at the wiring diagram for this, but since it is the ABS, I was thinking it is on the CLASS II system, so it might not be that easy.

You might lose other functions also. So I would study the wiring diagram before I went to splicing.

[CO Hummer]

Originally posted by PhilD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
the little bumpers in parking lots Can everyone please make sure they do not post pictures of themselves doing this, they will be on Jeep forums all over the World in the blink of an eye http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If you break a tie rod doing it, please remain silent http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I busted a gut when I read that, Phil. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[ROX]

Originally posted by PhilD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by H2 Rocks:
I didn't realize TC2 allows for more rpm's before the brake engages. Technically it allows for more wheel spin. The rpm's still seem to be limted to around 2000. When I have a wheel spinning in sand, I can floor it and barely move, not because my wheel is spinning, but because it won't give me any more engine rpms. Covering the brake cures this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I could swear that my rpm's are higher then 2k, because I couldn't complete some of the dunes if I was going any slower. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
Maybe that's why I don't use 4hi lock, I think it goes too slow, and 4 lo allows me to get more rpms? Now I'm going to have to go to the beach. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Paragon; 10-4 on the ABS fuse. Thanks. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[ROX]

Originally posted by PhilD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by H2 Rocks:
I could swear that my rpm's are higher then 2k, because I couldn't complete some of the dunes if I was going any slower. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Then TCS most probably wasn't impeding your progress.

Maybe that's why I don't use 4hi lock, I think it goes too slow, You'll go faster in 4Hi than 4Lo. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<span class="ev_code_RED">Agreed. I just like to get the wheels moving faster, sooner, and in 4 hi it's got jet-lag. (I don't know the terminology)</span> http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

and 4 lo allows me to get more rpms? Yes, because the gearing changes, but you'll need more rpms to acheive the same speed as in 4Hi. <span class="ev_code_RED">yes, that's why I was wondering about the 2000 rpm thing.</span> 4Lo is when I really notice TCS/TC2 being a real problem in loose sand and tend tom avoid it, unless the locker is needed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><span class="ev_code_RED">Phil, I love your advise, but I'm the opposite. I'm going to take all this to heart and perform some technical sessions in the sand now. Thanks. I know have a good reason to drive to the beach!</span> http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Boss Hoss]

Originally posted by PhilD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by H2 Rocks:
<span class="ev_code_RED">Phil, I love your advise, but I'm the opposite. I'm going to take all this to heart and perform some technical sessions in the sand now. Thanks. I know have a good reason to drive to the beach!</span> http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif A good place to see TCS/TC2 at work is to find a a steep sand dune with loose sand, at least 12" of free flowing surface sand, drive half way up it, stop and then try to get moving again. Usually, TCS/TC2 will kick in when it senses a wheel slipping (if a wheel doesn't slip then you need deeper sand or a steeper dune), once it's slipping floor it and see what happens, try it in 4Hi, 4Lo, etc and see which one works best.

Don't forget the pictures http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That sounds like fun. I acutally have one of those(sand hill) withing 500 yards of my house. Even though my wife gets pissy for me playing in the neighborhood i think i might be ok if it is for research purposes.http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[johndjmix1]

Sand dunes is a PERFECT example why you might want to lock the rear in 4 high. I dont want to miss that diode, thats why i was hopeing someone allready hooked it up and i could cheat off what they did.

This would be so much simpler if we just had 2 buttons.

1. ARB Air Locker Front
2. ARB Air Locker Rear

Oh yea guys....my dealer FINALLY sent my winch wiring to me today, $10 says when it gets here he forgot the connector for the winch (since my winch has bare wires coming out of it).

--John

[Hummie2]

This would be so much simpler if we just had 2 buttons.

1. ARB Air Locker Front
2. ARB Air Locker Rear

That can be done $$$, but I don't see where the air-locker is anymore durable than an e-locker as it only locks 1 side gear just like the e-locker does. Plus you gain the problems associated with air-lockers air systems. Easier to go with a heavier/stronger locker like the Detroit, but they have some disadvantages too.

I dont want to miss that diode, thats why i was hopeing someone allready hooked it up and i could cheat off what they did.


Thought about doing it but the rear locker is locked up by the Transfercase Shift Control Module and I suspect it will be alot more complicated than merely cutting some wires and powering up another switch to the e-locker. The Tcase Shift Mod. sends out Class 2 Serial Data to the BCM no telling what problems and trouble code you will generate by opening up the circuit to the locker. Probably have a nice big "SERVICE FWD SYS" message on the inst. display. Chance of too many problems for what you gain.

BTW- the diode is supposed to be @ Splice375-376 in the chassis harness to rear axle.