Slopes - Off Road

[JJ]

Okay, how about some experienced insights on "How to judge a slope". Do you guys/gals have photos of your off-road machines on slopes of a known angle (or best guess known)? I'd like to have an idea before I get on a slope as to the approximate angle it represents. Or do you just approach it slowly and get a feel for the vehicle attitude?

JJ

[JJ]

Okay, how about some experienced insights on "How to judge a slope". Do you guys/gals have photos of your off-road machines on slopes of a known angle (or best guess known)? I'd like to have an idea before I get on a slope as to the approximate angle it represents. Or do you just approach it slowly and get a feel for the vehicle attitude?

JJ

[Zing]

I use my gut. At first I was going up and down slopes with healthy reluctance until I got a better feel. A couple things I learned. Keep an eye on the contours in the road and try to keep the vehicle steady with minimal rocking and dipping in holes. Stay in control by concentrating on the path you intend for your tires to take 10-20 feet in front of you, as opposed to not anticipating the exact path the tires will go. Also when going down steep slopes particularly short ones, the less brake the better so long as you are in control. I remember going down a very steep slope and the first time I braked and almost go to rolling sideways. Very uncomfortable. After watching another guy I tried it and it was so much easier with no break and some speed.

[Mike97ZJ]

It is very unerving at first, going up and down very steep hills. Especially going up, where all you can see is your hood and the sky. In this case, if the terrain is uneven, you need to be able to rely on your spotter. On the really steep stuff, you should always be in first gear, low range. That will give you the most engine braking and allow you to stay off of your brakes.

Same thing with off camber trails. It always feels so much worse than it is, because it's an unatural postion to be in. It always seems to feel worse when the driver's side is downhill, too. One tip is to fight the temptation to cock your head to the side to compensate for the angle. All that does is screw up your perception of the angle even more.

Also, if you DO get into the situation where a rollover is emminent, steer downhill and hit the gas, if possible. That might just save you from going over.

[Zing]

Mike that if very good advice on your last point on rollover. Once I felt I was going to tip and my instinct was to hit the brake, which would increase the risk of tipping.

[Arizona Hummerboy]

What I like to do is, I will walk the hill that I am climbing, I will look for ruts, pot holes, large rocks, and how the road is layed out. and I do the same if I am going down a hill for the frist time.
It pays to be safe, out there. And there been some hills I just walk away from.

[Mike97ZJ]

Z, yeah, braking in that situation is BAD. It's your first instinct to do it though, and first instincts are hard to fight. You just need to train yourself.

Braking in certain situations is bad because it throws the weight transfer off, and not in your favor either.

When doing it going downhill, it puts even MORE weight on the front end, and takes the weight off the back wheels. Vehicle can have a tendancy to swap ends when that happens.

AZ, right on man. I do the same exact thing. It's a good idea to pick your line, and to look at the hill and envision how exactly you are going to drive up it. Also, it pays to know whats on the other side.

There's no law that says you can't get out of your truck while wheeling. In fact, I spend more time OUT of my Jeep than in it when I wheel.

[JJ]

thanks guys
walking the path sure makes a lot of sense
and PhilD thanks for the clarification of angle versus % grade that is a very important distinction.

JJ

[JJ]

AMEN....

JJ

[Steve R]

My all-time favorite approach is to travel with other Hummers and let a couple of them go first!!!

Not only can you see the lines and realize what your in for....but once a couple of them go...then you know, being that you've got the same vehicle, that you too can make it.

As for doing scary stuff while on your own: not advisable!!!!

I've been to a practice track and played with taking sideslopes that scare ya. I've also been up some pretty steep hills and after doing all this I returned to a nearby hill where there is a trail that runs straight up the front. I never really messed with that trail....but after all the practice and stuff...that hill looked pretty mellow and I went right up it!

In other words.....practice and you know you can do, and don't exceed that while traversing new and unknown obstacles.

[Hum2]

I have been at 27 degrees side slope and 37 degrees vertical (yes degrees not percent)...both were very uncomfortable and I would suggest not going there often. H2 specs are around 18 degrees side slope, 27 degrees vertical. Any glitch could cause a roll.

Ric

OMAHOG/IHOG
Hum2@cox.net

[alecs wife]

The H2 can do 35 degrees side slopes. You must have a some sort of guage at those levels. Never trust your gut when conditions get severe. know how to trust your guages.

Also notable is the question of weight.

R2

Front Locker, Stealth winch, 37" Super Swampers SSR,low center of gravity = Ultimate H2

[Buckeye Hummer]

If you're on an incline and can't get your door open due to gravity either you're arms are twigs or the incline is too steep. This is a pic from yesterday. I aired down my front tires to 10 psi and rear to 20 to keep my center down. It was still scary.

One more thing: if you make an error on this type of slope, you're done, it's roll time.

[alecs wife]

I just have to wonder why did you guys think this was the ideal parking spot?

R2

Front Locker, Stealth winch, 37" Super Swampers SSR,low center of gravity = Ultimate H2

[Buckeye Hummer]

There were some steep ledges just in front of us. We were concerned if we hit them wrong the truck would go to one side or the other setting us up for a roll so we got out and spotted each other one at a time.

After I got back in to complete the ledge I couldn't get my damn seat belt on because it was locked down, not good when you're completing an incline this steep. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

[unaslob]

a set of incline and sideslope gauges are key I think...especially when learning. knowing what the limits are and knowing that you can go over those limits is key. I remember the first time I got real sideways... and you start to feel that in the pit of your stomach... check the gauge and realize that you are no where near the limits.

if you get gauges... remember the placement of them IS a big deal.... you cannot put your sideslope gauge up on the roof console...

unaslob

Corsa Sport exhaust(offroad 'tip'), Gobi rack w/ lights & w/roof mounted tire w/ ladder, Warn Winch with rear power, Dual Wolo Airhorns w/ lanyard valve, Hadley Aircompressor 130PSI, 14" airtank, front and rear quick disconnects for air, Cobra 75 WX CB, Dual 4' Firestik fiberglass whips, front tinted windows, 7" Homer Simpson decal (teehee)!

[Buckeye Hummer]

I have those but after you continually bury them at 45 it's no fun.

[Arizona Hummerboy]

The Hummer is the most awesome vehicle I have every had. They will go anywere and do just about anything you need them to do.
I have had my H2 so far over on it side that my buddy my able to write is name in the dirt and pick rocks off of the ground. As for me driving I had the seat sucked up my ass on that trip.
I have also driven down steep slopes, all I could see was blue sky in front of me, I had a spoter on the hill to tell me how to break over the top of the hill, he was watching my front end and getting me in the best line to take. When I broke over the hill I was able to put my back right tire in the air about 4 feet in the air. I got a good picture of that.

Just go out and do some 4 wheeling and get used to the fill of the rig, it will do all the work for you on the trail.
And if you can go with a group of 4 wheelers, then go. Just remember there is allways safty in numbers.

[Hum2]

AZ Hummerboy:

Let's see the pic with your "back right tire in the air about 4 feet in the air"

Also, I want to see: "I have also driven down steep slopes, all I could see was blue sky in front of me" http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Are you going down backwards or end-over-end? http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Hey, I am scheduled to visit Phoenix the week of 7 June. Think we can set up a dinner and an off-road excursion while I'me there? Anyone else interested? I will be on business and won't have my H2...but I can ride along for fun/be a spotter!?!

Ric

OMAHOG/IHOG
Hum2@cox.net

[Manny]

You should not rely on gauges while performing steep ascents, descents, or sideslopes.

The specs from a manufacturer on slopes are based on a smooth regular surface with predictable and consistent friction coefficients - not reality. A gauge will not help you, because the limits will vary greatly based on the surface, and irregularities on that surface. One small rock or dip under the right tire can change the position of your truck from the equivalent of a 30% grade to a 40% grade in an instant.

I am in the process of writing an article for the Spring '05 issue of Ultimate Hummers Magazine on steep ascents and descents; I won't be addressing sideslopes specifically, but many of the concepts still apply - specifically, I talk about identifying the fall line of the slope, staying off the brake if possible, and only left-foot braking as necessary.

Always have an escape route planned, and if you have doubts about the slope - stay off of it!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by R2:
The H2 can do 35 degrees side slopes. You must have a some sort of guage at those levels. Never trust your gut when conditions get severe. know how to trust your guages.

Also notable is the question of weight.

R2

Front Locker, Stealth winch, 37" Super Swampers SSR,low center of gravity = Ultimate H2
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[PARAGON]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Manny:
You should not rely on gauges while performing steep ascents, descents, or sideslopes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You can't be serious, can you? I guess the military, state highway departments, forestry workers all are dumb to rely on their inclinometers, clinometers, slope indicators, etc.

I guess their training in using the instruments to help in maitaining safety and not relying on their "pucker factor" is a bad idea to you. Come on, maybe the common idiot will roll his vehicle because he doesn't understand what he is doing but since when is the average person at a disadvantage due to accurate and reliable information like what a gauge would be providing?

Some people are scared at a 15 degree side slope and others wouldn't realize that they are at a dangerous 35-40 degree slope, so how why should one not rely on the accurate information from a gauge. It is likened to telling a pilot not to rely on his gauges. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Manny]

It is nothing like telling a pilot not to rely on his gauges; apparently you had trouble understanding my post. Here is a scenario to illustrate my point:

You are on a slope, and your clinometer reads a measured angle; you proceed, based strictly on the fact that you are at an angle within specs from manufacturer for your vehicle. One of the downhill tires dips into hole, angle changes instantly to a drastic increase in the position of the vehicle - vehicle rolls over.

Relying on gauges rather than evaluating all components of the hill, including irregularities in the surface, traction on surface, etc., is a recipe for disaster. Just because a gauge says it is safe, does not mean it is safe.

I didn't say don't use them, I said don't rely on them to determine what is safe and what is not.

Understand?

FWIW, most clinometer/inclinometers designed for 4x4 use are useless in a Hummer H1 because they get pinned well before the actual point of rollover threat.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Manny:
You should not rely on gauges while performing steep ascents, descents, or sideslopes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You can't be serious, can you? I guess the military, state highway departments, forestry workers all are dumb to rely on their inclinometers, clinometers, slope indicators, etc.

I guess their training in using the instruments to help in maitaining safety and not relying on their "pucker factor" is a bad idea to you. Come on, maybe the common idiot will roll his vehicle because he doesn't understand what he is doing but since when is the average person at a disadvantage due to accurate and reliable information like what a gauge would be providing?

Some people are scared at a 15 degree side slope and others wouldn't realize that they are at a dangerous 35-40 degree slope, so how why should one not rely on the accurate information from a gauge. It is likened to telling a pilot not to rely on his gauges. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Manny]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sfox:
...
I think practice and experience is the only way to know what is gonna turn out bad. I find the gauges a little too slow at times, plus you have to look away from the trail to use them. ...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly - the gauge will provide you with a reading for "right now" in a situation that requires proactive driving and anticipation of where you will be next. It is perfect for telling you what angle you were at right before you rolled over http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[PARAGON]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Manny:
It is nothing like telling a pilot not to rely on his gauges; apparently you had trouble understanding my post. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Apparently you have trouble understanding what you write.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Manny:
I didn't say don't use them, I said don't rely on them to determine what is safe and what is not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So, saying that a "A gauge will not help you" is not likened to saying don't use them? Also, you didn't qualify your comment as you now would like us to think you did, you simply said:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Manny:
You should not rely on gauges while performing steep ascents, descents, or sideslopes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Manny:
FWIW, most clinometer/inclinometers designed for 4x4 use are useless in a Hummer H1 because they get pinned well before the actual point of rollover threat. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Since you are the off-road editor for a supposed Hummer magazine, don't you at least feel you have an inherent responsibility to have the facts straight before you spout your obvious ignorance. Please provide us with where the Hummer H1 has the ability to traverse an off-camber situation that is well past 45 degrees (according to your comment). You are obviously telling us that since Hummer provides that the H1 has a safe off-camber ability of 22 degrees, that H1s can actually easily double that number without fear of rollover. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

This is all relatively common sense and simple. A gauge will allow you to assess the situation at which you are at and help determine if it is safe to continue on the same line. You talk as if you have no experience on the trail what-so-ever. You don't magically appear on an off-camber line that approaches the roll-over point. You have to drive the vehicle to that situation and at some point you were at zero degrees and every point in between. If you know that a safe situation to be in is on a 30 degree side slope then as you are driving a line, you "gauge" where you are on the scale from 0 to 30 degrees and drive accordingly. Being complacent about the camber your vehicle is at is what results in accidents. As I asked before, how is having more information available a bad thing?

[H2Finally]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PARAGON:
how is having more information available a bad thing? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>EXCELLENT point. I very much doubt anyone would drive off-camber with their eyes glued to the gauge, oblivious to the terrain and the "hole" in it.

The key to Sfox's post is the "practice and experience" part, to qualify NOT relying on the gauge.

For every other non-hardcore offroader (or those on the way to gain that experience) like myself, the gauge is invaluable to provide 'objective' actual angle information, rather than rely on my (most likely erroneous) 'feeling'. Imho.

[Manny]

Paragon,

All I said was you should not rely on gauges to tell you when it safe without factoring all the factors involved.

One more time, my point is not that gauges are bad, but that relying on gauges to tell you what is safe without the other information is bad. Kind of like relying on your speedometer to tell you what speed is safe, and assuming that if the manufactuere says 55 is safe you can travel at that speed regardless of the road, weather, and traffic.

None of my facts are wrong; I never said anything close to what you refer to below in regards to 45 degree angles, etc. If I am guilty of one thing it was saying that most clinometers marketed for 4x4 use stop well short of 45 degrees - some do, obviously.

Have I ever exceeded the minumum working load angles of the Hummer according to AM General while off-roading? Yes. Those ratings are for a vehicle at fully loaded GVWR. My truck has a reinforced rollcage for extra protection, because in the sport of off-roading, it is not uncommon for a serious wheeler to push a vehicle right to the limits of its capabilities - which is sometimes beyond manufacturer recommendations.

As far as my experience goes, I can certainly provide you with a lengthy resume of offroad experiences in Hummer vehicles.

If you have other issues with me personally, please feel free to email me privately; I am not particularly interested in entertaining your other personal attacks and emotionally driven criticisms publicly.

-Manny

http://pubpages.unh.edu/~ejm/steep.jpg


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PARAGON:

...Since you are the off-road editor for a supposed Hummer magazine, don't you at least feel you have an inherent responsibility to have the facts straight before you spout your obvious ignorance.

...Please provide us with where the Hummer H1 has the ability to traverse an off-camber situation that is well past 45 degrees (according to your comment).

...You are obviously telling us that since Hummer provides that the H1 has a safe off-camber ability of 22 degrees, that H1s can actually easily double that number without fear of rollover. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

...You talk as if you have no experience on the trail what-so-ever.


...As I asked before, how is having more information available a bad thing? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[PARAGON]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Manny:
Paragon,

All I said was you should not rely on gauges to tell you when it safe without factoring all the factors involved.

If you have other issues with me personally, please feel free to email me privately; I am not particularly interested in entertaining your other personal attacks and emotionally driven criticisms publicly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The fact is that is not all you said. YOU are the off-road editor of a magazine and now want to edit what you have already written here. Admit it, the connotation of your original post was to completely discount the use of these gauges. Your post can not be interpreted any other way.

This is not like writing a column in a magazine. Write something here and you will be responded to. You were obviously hunting for something when you posted your opinion in a thread that had not been posted to in over a year. So, your self-importance here is of no consequence. If you view my disagreement with your first post in this thread and then your continued attempts to re-write what you said as a "personal attack", maybe you need to reconsider your own emotional state. I can assure you, not much of anything I type in this forum is "emotionally driven."

The simple fact is that, as with everything else in life, when utilized properly, these gauges can be helpful by providing additional information to the driver.

[Manny]

You must be having a bad day, Paragon.
I didn't mean to hurt anybody's feelings here - if I did, I apologize. I certainly wasn't trying to start any fights with anyone.

I said what I meant - in every post. When I talk about driving on a slope, you respond with emotionally driven phrases like "your obvious ignorance" - maybe it is just me, but I consider that a personal attack.

I'm done - have fun with yourself...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Manny:
Paragon,

All I said was you should not rely on gauges to tell you when it safe without factoring all the factors involved.

If you have other issues with me personally, please feel free to email me privately; I am not particularly interested in entertaining your other personal attacks and emotionally driven criticisms publicly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The fact is that is not all you said. YOU are the off-road editor of a magazine and now want to edit what you have already written here. Admit it, the connotation of your original post was to completely discount the use of these gauges. Your post can not be interpreted any other way.

This is not like writing a column in a magazine. Write something here and you will be responded to. You were obviously hunting for something when you posted your opinion in a thread that had not been posted to in over a year. So, your self-importance here is of no consequence. If you view my disagreement with your first post in this thread and then your continued attempts to re-write what you said as a "personal attack", maybe you need to reconsider your own emotional state. I can assure you, not much of anything I type in this forum is "emotionally driven."

The simple fact is that, as with everything else in life, when utilized properly, these gauges can be helpful by providing additional information to the driver. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[PARAGON]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Manny:
You must be having a bad day, Paragon.
I didn't mean to hurt anybody's feelings here - if I did, I apologize. I certainly wasn't trying to start any fights with anyone.

I said what I meant - in every post. When I talk about driving on a slope, you respond with emotionally driven phrases like "your obvious ignorance" - maybe it is just me, but I consider that a personal attack.

I'm done - have fun with yourself...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Fine, you simply can't admit that you made a mistake in your first post. You have attempted to backtrack by saying you meant something else. Now, you want to wash it all away by labeling this as a personal attack.

First you say "You should not rely on gauges while performing steep ascents, descents, or sideslopes." You did not say solely rely or rely only on, you said do not rely. Which in effect was saying that the gauge is useless, since you can't rely on it. You proceeded to say "the gauge will not help you" in one of the next sentences. Then you attempt to rewrite those comments by saying "All I said was you should not rely on gauges to tell you when it safe without factoring all the factors involved."

It's truly sad that you can't admit to the difference and the misinformation you provided in the first post.

Then you try to split hairs by saying that my comments about the 45 degree and the H1 were wrong based on what you said. But you again, erroneously, said "most clinometer/inclinometers designed for 4x4 use are useless in a Hummer H1 because they get pinned well before the actual point of rollover threat." This is obviously inaccurate, even as you admit, because MOST actually do go to 45 degrees and a few do not.

Simply put, you came here to a year old thread to talk about your column in a magazine under the guise that you are an expert but when taken to task on your comments, you cry about it. I certainly have nothing to lose/gain by posting my opinions here but you should at least think before you type, being that you are an off-road editor and all.

[f5fstop]

Maybe it is just me, but I easily understand what Manny implied in his first post. Then again, I don't believe in personal attacks..

[DRTYFN]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by f5fstop:
Maybe it is just me, but I easily understand what Manny implied in his first post. Then again, I don't believe in personal attacks.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because you're a pacifist girl.http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[h2co-pilot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sfox:
You did notice that this died like 6 months ago right?

http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe the thread touched his/her Hart? http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[RasterMaster]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sfox:
You did notice that this died like 6 months ago right?

http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seth,

Threads have a way of coming back....

http://elcova.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/2306011751/m/5496038174/p/3

Start at the last post and work up! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif