H1 Opentop - No real roll bars?

[Aubs]

Has anyone ever looked at the sunvisor in an open top H1? I was just looking at one and was certain that it said something like: "Do not rely on overhead bars for rollover protection. They are merely supports for the canvas roof and will not protect occupants in the event of a roll over."

Is this really what I read? If so, what gives!?

[JnStitz]

No way thats possible, that would be a HUGE safety issue.

[RonB]

I'm sure that is for legal puposes, and to scare the owners from doing nutty things with their trucks. There's no way they could make a vehicle available to the public with a roof that colapses and crushes the occupants. The same type of thing was on a mountainbike I bought once (warning, not meant for use in the dirt!). besides, only two types of people roll H1's -- super hard-core off roaders, and complete morons.

Ron B

[JnStitz]

Originally posted by RonB:
I'm sure that is for legal puposes, and to scare the owners from doing nutty things with their trucks. There's no way they could make a vehicle available to the public with a roof that colapses and crushes the occupants. The same type of thing was on a mountainbike I bought once (warning, not meant for use in the dirt!). besides, only two types of people roll H1's -- super hard-core off roaders, and complete morons.

Ron B


I think I fall some place in between that...

[Mr. I - Man]

super hard-core off roaders, and complete morons.


Same difference http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[RonB]

me too John!
rb

[johndjmix1]

Little off subject but Ill tell you though, there is definatly a good market out there waiting for someone to tap...making pre-bent roll bars for SUV's and pickups. Older guys might remember the pre-bent bars they use to sell in the dick cepek catalog and other places.

You buy the kit for your vehicle, its pre-bent with all connections having sleeves for strength....then you just put it in and weld it up. Takes A LOT of work out of building a cage.

Ever seen a SUV roll on at highway speeds?... definatly makes you think about puting one in. I know i want to put one in my expedition out in NY...

--John

[aggiehummer...er]

To be sold in the US, an SUV's roof must be able to support 150% of the weight of the vehicle.

[HMMWV]

Passenger vehicle roof test. Got the pic from autonews or detnews I think, not sure.
http://img390.imageshack.us/my.php?image=roll20over5mq.gif

But the H1 is a class 3 truck and is not subject to these tests.

Its true, the rollbars are not real rollbars.

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by HMMWV:
Passenger vehicle roof test. Got the pic from autonews or detnews I think, not sure.
http://img390.imageshack.us/my.php?image=roll20over5mq.gif

But the H1 is a class 3 truck and is not subject to these tests.

Its true, the rollbars are not real rollbars. That's not the entire story. That refers specifically to early 1970s NHTSA regs. It only refers to Safety Standard 216 but doesn't mention Safety Standard 208 whereby all vehicles have to protect occupants in a 30mph lateral rollover.

[Aubs]

Standard No. 216: Roof Crush Resistance
Scope and Purpose:
This standard establishes strength requirements for the passenger compartment roof to reduce deaths and injuries due to the crushing of the roof into the occupant compartment in rollover crashes.

Application:
Passenger cars (except convertibles) and multipurpose passenger vehicles, trucks and buses (except school buses) with a GVWR of 2,722 kg (6,000 lb) or less

NHTSA Safety Standards and Regulations


208 doesn't seem to apply to vehicles in the H1's weight range... This information is very hard to find.

EDIT: Upon further reading of the DOT's full version of 208, I find that vehicles over 10,000 GVWR must have seat belts... but I'm still not sure what regulations specifically apply to vehicles over 10,000 GVWR. The HI ALPHA is over 10,000 GVWR.

[RonB]

well good thing our trucks are so wide with a low center of gravity, it takes a pretty crazy angle to roll these things. I read once the roll-over point (static, smooth surface) was something like 55 degrees?! I couldn't imagine 50 deg, I hit 40 and I'm starting to seriously pucker.

Beefing up my roll bars has been at the top of my list for mods for a while now. Btw, does anyone know the difference between the structural integrity of a wagon's roof vrs the open top's roll bars? I only ask because I've seen a few rolled wagons and they fair pretty well.

Ron B

[RonB]

ok, got me thinking...found this on the hml by Manny, who has a really cool/modded H1 -- here's a bit from the thread:

"I paid close attention to the open-top rollovers that have taken place over the past few years, and in nearly every case I have seen, the stock configuration has been enough to protect the occupants but collapses in certain areas more than others; particularly, there is nothing to support the truck in the area of the windshield (A pillar), so the front corners particularly seem to be a problem. DO expect the truck to suffer significant damage in a rollover, since the current structure will bend at all upper corners under the weight of the truck.

As far as my modifications, I left the original structure in place and had it all welded where it was originally bolted together - IMHO, this alone significantly strengthened the structure. I also added a "box" at the front of the cage right behind the windshield, and additional spreader bar reinforcements to the cage. I have some pictures on the web, see the link below...

My modded cage is by no means as strong as a completely fabricated full rollcage - but it was inexpensive, and it is much stronger than the original structure. Overall, I feel pretty good about it; minimal loss of visibility and gives me a little more peace of mind when I get myself into "tippy" situations. I don't expect it to protect the truck from sustaining some major body damage in a rollover, but I do expect it to better protect the occupants."

hmmm. I'm headed to the welders.

Ron B

[MovinH2]

Originally posted by RonB:
I'm sure that is for legal puposes, and to scare the owners from doing nutty things with their trucks. There's no way they could make a vehicle available to the public with a roof that colapses and crushes the occupants. The same type of thing was on a mountainbike I bought once (warning, not meant for use in the dirt!). besides, only two types of people roll H1's -- super hard-core off roaders, and complete morons.

Ron B


X2

[Hi-Mobility]

I've watched an open top H1 roll over completely at Paragon. The driver walked away from the roll-over with a cut-up arm and some scalp cuts. Granted he was shaken up, but the roll bars held.

The truck went completely over and then up on it's side (1 1/4 roll). We pushed it back on it's wheels, re-beaded two tires, checked fluids, etc. They drove it the entire next day off road.

There was extensive damage to the truck as the roll cage shifted the "b" post, tweeking one set of doors in and one set out.

The bars work, albeit with some serious damage.

[NoMoGMPG]

Originally posted by RonB:
well good thing our trucks are so wide with a low center of gravity, it takes a pretty crazy angle to roll these things. I read once the roll-over point (static, smooth surface) was something like 55 degrees?! I couldn't imagine 50 deg, I hit 40 and I'm starting to seriously pucker.

Beefing up my roll bars has been at the top of my list for mods for a while now. Btw, does anyone know the difference between the structural integrity of a wagon's roof vrs the open top's roll bars? I only ask because I've seen a few rolled wagons and they fair pretty well.

Ron B

Ron,

I hit 47 degrees on the narrow alley at the end of Hells Revenge. here's a vid clip of it.

http://www.*******club.com/video/Noname.wmv

Dave

[Aubs]

I can't imagine the wagon roof adds significant structure (I mean, that would cost AMG a lot to differentiate the models so much), it seems like the Opentop rollbars are just boxed out in the wagon.

EDIT: I've come up with the following documents that may or may not pertain to the opentop's roll-over protection. These documents may refer to the Uparmored models... I've emailed AMG. I'll let you know what they say...

This document is of particular concern to me:

This is from 1999. Have these updates been made?

"Rollovers were addressed in this analysis but are so dangerous and deadly that they also
require special emphasis in this report."

HMMWV Seat and Safety Evaluation (http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/11ground/reed.pdf)

Also, this is a concern:

This is from 08/2005!

Declassified Army Musings (http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:AyNy-dog4hMJ:www.hood.army.mil/safety/FORSCOM%2520Quarterly%2520Risk%2520Assessments_fil es/1ST_QTR_06_RISK_ASSESSMENT_%2520(2).ppt+hmmwv+roll over+protection&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=4)

"[suggested] HMMWV safety upgrades – five point seatbelt, roll-over protection, gunner restraint, VIC-3 intercom system, emergency rescue/egress & body armor "

However, this is reassuring:

HMMWV Handbook (http://www.dmva.state.pa.us/paarng_sso/lib/paarng_sso/safety_guides/sg3.doc)

"14. Extreme caution shall be taken when transporting personnel. Rollover protection and seatbelts are available for the crew area only and is not provided in the troop/cargo area. (Failure to use basic safe driving skills may result in injury or death to personnel and damage to equipment)."

Here's another, but this one may clarify things (or not):

"Determine quantities needed & produce rollover protection kit for soft top HMMWV models (M998 / M1027) (existing design; Lead PM-LTV)"

This applies to:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m998.gif

I think. Though the family is M998 for HMMWV's.

Another Study (https://crc.army.mil/RiskManagement/driving_pov/ADTF/mtg13apr2005/enclc.ppt)

[EXH1X5]

I can't imagine the wagon roof adds significant structure (I mean, that would cost AMG a lot to differentiate the models so much), it seems like the Opentop rollbars are just boxed out in the wagon.


FYI: All Civilian HUMMER (H1) models as built by AMG do NOT have "rollbars," (or a "rollcage" for that matter). They do have a "roof structure" which many have determined in their own mind as being "rollbars" which they are NOT!! All that stuff you dug up pertains only to military HMMWVs (HUMVEEs). However, it would be correct to say the windshield frame on HMMWVs (HUMVEEs) was at one time referred to as a "rollmember."

[hmcoleap]

I realize this is an old thread, but I thought people might be interested in some related pics...

http://www.serious4x4.com/cage.html

ok, got me thinking...found this on the hml by Manny, who has a really cool/modded H1 -- here's a bit from the thread:

"I paid close attention to the open-top rollovers that have taken place over the past few years, and in nearly every case I have seen, the stock configuration has been enough to protect the occupants but collapses in certain areas more than others; particularly, there is nothing to support the truck in the area of the windshield (A pillar), so the front corners particularly seem to be a problem. DO expect the truck to suffer significant damage in a rollover, since the current structure will bend at all upper corners under the weight of the truck.

As far as my modifications, I left the original structure in place and had it all welded where it was originally bolted together - IMHO, this alone significantly strengthened the structure. I also added a "box" at the front of the cage right behind the windshield, and additional spreader bar reinforcements to the cage. I have some pictures on the web, see the link below...

My modded cage is by no means as strong as a completely fabricated full rollcage - but it was inexpensive, and it is much stronger than the original structure. Overall, I feel pretty good about it; minimal loss of visibility and gives me a little more peace of mind when I get myself into "tippy" situations. I don't expect it to protect the truck from sustaining some major body damage in a rollover, but I do expect it to better protect the occupants."

hmmm. I'm headed to the welders.

Ron B

[Aubs]

I realize this is an old thread, but I thought people might be interested in some related pics...

http://www.serious4x4.com/cage.html

Thanks Manny. You have a very nice roll cage setup on your truck. I think I'd be investing in something like that if I got an opentop.

Just out of curiosity, what's the roof structure like in the wagon?

[hmcoleap]

It is very simple, actually... pretty much just a steel roof with an integrated B-pillar hoop.

Rolled wagons appear to suffer similar damage at the front/windshield corners.

Thanks Manny. You have a very nice roll cage setup on your truck. I think I'd be investing in something like that if I got an opentop.

Just out of curiosity, what's the roof structure like in the wagon?