Stock 4x4 comparison

[Wisha Haddan H3]

I've been working on a way to predict the off-road performance of a vehicle based on its specs, like approach angles, torque, gearing, weight, dimensions, etc.

Without getting into all the details, I came up with this ranking for extreme off-road performance. The models are either the current model or their last model year. They all have 4-lo except the Murano (which a friend was curious about).

I know you lose a lot when you don't take suspension and parts quality into account, but is the ranking basically in the ballpark?

[Wisha Haddan H3]

I know ... I have waaaaaay too much time on my hands :D

[PARAGON]

bwahaahahahahahhahah

that has to be the most hilarious thing I've seen on here in a while

[PARAGON]

I know ... I have waaaaaay too much time on my hands :Dno, I think the problem is that you have way too much dumb in your head

[31_bandits]

for curiosities sake, what was the rating system?

[PARAGON]

for curiosities sake, what was the rating system?apparently, chicken feathers

[DennisAJC]

I've been working on a way to predict the off-road performance of a vehicle based on its specs, like approach angles, torque, gearing, weight, dimensions, etc.

LMAO!!!!

This thread reminds me of that time Alec's AE did a poll for "Best Elcova Offroader" Alec won that poll.:D

Thanks to the ***Cough***AE***Cough****Votes***Cough***.:D :D :D

[31_bandits]

well, i hope you had fun with the project.

one thing you really have to do if attempting something like that is go measure some actual clearance. clearance spec's and clearance realities don't necessarily go hand-in-hand.

The Touareg is a prime-time example of that, as are toyotas. On the other side of the spectrum, the H3 has (on one i measured in the dealers lot just for kicks a couple months ago) nothing as close to the ground as 9.1", more like 9.5.

[Wisha Haddan H3]

Thanks for your feedback. Yeah, it's been fun and I've learned a lot.

For the record, this isn't about which SUV is the best. I'm trying to write a software application that will evaluate vehicle performance offroad, based on your own measured specs. The factory specs on HP, torque, wheel size, and such were just a place to start.

The software would display the benefits (or problems) of new gearing, extra weight or bigger tires and compare it to your original vehicle before you actually cut, weld or spend a dime. You can evaluate mods you've already made and compare them to stock specs. Or you can build completely custom rigs "virtually" and evaluate the specs before you pull the trigger.

I'll post some of my evaluation criteria at lunch.

[HummBebe]

What is the H3 Advent 3700 and H3 Advent 3500???

[Wisha Haddan H3]

What is the H3 Advent 3700 and H3 Advent 3500???

oh yeah, it's the H3 Adventure package with 3.5L or 3.7L engine.

[HummBebe]

That's what I thought, Thanks:D

[Wisha Haddan H3]

I'm tracking 3 kinds of data - Power, Agility and Utility.

'Power' contains max HP@rpm, max torque@rpm, curb weight, GVWR, 1st gear ratio, xfer case ratio, axle ratio, and tire diameter as the raw data.

To account for weight and gearing in each SUV, I calculated geared crawl rates (ft/s or s/ft) and worked out the formulas to compare their ability to climb different grades in 1st gear-low, based on the vehicle's weight and a standard weight for crew and cargo.

'Agility' includes ground clearance, approach/breakover/departure angles, turn diameter (curb to curb), size, wheelbase and track width. I also included full-time AWD, locking diff(s), traction control, stability control, hill start assist, and descent control.

'Utility' lists fuel economy, fuel capacity, payload, cargo volume, and tow capacity. It can also calculate towing acceleration based on a given tow weight (plus curb weight + ?? lbs crew and cargo) to compare vehicle acceleration on a boat ramp and from a stop.

[Wisha Haddan H3]

Then I created 5 profiles - Rock Crawling, Offroad Trips, Highway Trips, People Mover and Towing - that contain the data points that seem to apply. These profiles (I'm hoping) will show the suitability of the specific vehicles to an intended purpose.

The best scoring method I found was to take a % of the highest data value. For example, the highest ground clearance on my list is 16" (2006 H1 Alpha). The lowest value is 6.7" (2003 Ford Explorer Sport). I divide each data value by the highest in the list and get 1.00 for the H1 and .42 for the Explorer.

For a final score in each profile, I add up the % scores for each data category and divide by the highest value (H1 - 18.1 points). For example, in Rock Crawling, the H3 3.7L (manual) scored 18.17 points and the H3 3.5L (manual) got 17.88. Dividing by the highest value (H1 - 18.1 points), this means a final score of H3 3.7 - .95 and H3 3.5 - .92.
__________

Anyway I wanted to validate my data points and calculations before I start building the software. I've learned a lot from this forum and I appreciate your expertise and feedback.

[Steve - SanJose]

ok

[PARAGON]

is any specific category weighted over the other. Does categories cross, as in, does a category, such as traction control cross on another vehicle when it is called or labeled something else, etc. etc on an on until your little spreadsheet looks like a 2 year old's dirty diaper.

Do you say "look ma! no brain" when you try something like this?

[Steve - SanJose]

Wow, analysis paralysis for determining the best 4x4.:(

S.

[PARAGON]

Wow, analysis paralysis for determining the best 4x4.:(

S.now I have psoriasis

[Steve - SanJose]

that too.:eek: ! ?

[PARAGON]

that too.:eek: ! ?yes:confused:

[MarineHawk]

... is the ranking basically in the ballpark?

Well, the superior position you have assigned to all of the Rubis over the H2 seems to conflict with my recollection of OldHiker:
1- lining up behind the Rubi on the Blue-3 rated trail at Paragon this April (it had been hopelessly stuck there for three hours);
2-- winching it out from behind over several obstacles it could not get over on its own (even with it's front and rear lockers); and then
3- driving right over the same obstacles with no problem.

[DennisAJC]

Well, the superior position you have assigned to all of the Rubis over the H2 seems to conflict with my recollection of OldHiker:
1- lining up behind the Rubi on the Blue-3 rated trail at Paragon this April (it had been hopelessly stuck there for three hours);
2-- winching it out from behind over several obstacles it could not get over on its own (even with it's front and rear lockers); and then
3- driving right over the same obstacles with no problem.

And nobody with a video camera?:( :D

[Wisha Haddan H3]

is any specific category weighted over the other. Does categories cross, as in, does a category, such as traction control cross on another vehicle when it is called or labeled something else, etc. etc on an on until your little spreadsheet looks like a 2 year old's dirty diaper.

At this point, I haven't weighted any category over another within a profile. But not every feature is in every profile. "Rock Crawling" ignores gas mileage. "People Mover" ignores low range".

Since everyone has a different name and feature set for their traction systems, I ignored the trademark name and divided the functionality into feature sets. So if a vehicle has a system to control understeer or oversteer, I gave it credit for "stability control". A system that brakes one wheel to send power to the other side over an open diff got credit for "traction control". I did the same for hill-start assist and downhill assist.

[HummBebe]

You should add a Driver ability column.

[Wisha Haddan H3]

First off, what in the hell does fuel economy have to do with off-road performance? Absolutely nothing. Fuel economy is not in the Rock Crawling profile. It's part of Road Trips and People Mover.

Secondly, I think you are missing a whole lot of information in your "equations". Off-roading is generally about a situation, not every vehicle is going to perform well in every situation. I have seen bits of trail that a Hummer simply couldn't get on because it was too tight a squeeze between two huge rocks, I have also seen hills that the length and width of a Hummer made a huge difference. Can you seriously say that a a Jeep Liberty is more capable than an H2??
My software will eventually let you specify the strengths you want offroad, like hill climbing and boulder-hopping, but it's not there yet. Creating profiles is my first attempt at comparing vehicles by situation. When I designed Rock Crawling, it contained factors that favor small vehicles like tight turns (which is something I may change). I absolutely did not mean that the Liberty is better than the H1 in all respects. If there's enough room for it, the H1 would always kick its ass.

Seriously, you need to learn more about off-roading before writing these assumptions.
I'm making no assumptions about which vehicle is better. But I know many of my initial criteria are off. I just want to validate and improve my early results. Thank you all for your feedback.

[Wisha Haddan H3]

You should add a Driver ability column.

No kidding ... between wheel placement and finesse, a good driver can make all the difference.

[usetosellhummer]

What the hell you do all day man, sheet cut and paste some charts?
too much .... too much

[PARAGON]

The more I look at the chart, the more I just have to say how much total BS it is.

The #1 limiting factor when rock crawling for factory vehicles is ground clearance. Yet the FJ Cruiser does better on rocks with a manual tranny than it is does with an auto, based on crawl ratio I guess. What good does crawl ratio do if you are high centered.

For rock crawling you also have to give extra credit for SFA vehicles as it does help. Where you got the RTI figures for all these vehicles is beyond me, but you can't produce any vaguely meaningful results without it.

What you chose as an optimum wheelbase for rock crawling would obviously also be somewhat subjective.

I've never seen a vehicle not make an obstacle due to crawl ratio, so if you are just looking at numbers, it becomes almost irrelevant. For stock vehicles torque becomes kind of irrelevant to an extent too.

A lot of the time it will simply come down to approach/departure/breakover angles, clearance and articulation/flex.

Now I feel dumb, wasting my time replying to a waste of time chart ;) :Ddummy;)

[31_bandits]

Well, just two pennies from an unimportant guy, and if into obloquy i am to be driven for saying this, then so be it. I mean nobody offense.

But what has this post harmed? If somebody wants to spend their time dreaming of 4wds in what ways they can, it certainly won't cause me to lose much sleep, even if my truck got rated lower than i think it deserves. At times it seems that anything even involving hummers or offroading has to eventually wind up drenched in negativity. bling -vs- no bling, the mileage thing, and whatever else. If i have contributed to that at times, apologies, and i shall submit to a flogging on white knuckle hill. That is if any of the hummer gangs let my jeep come along with my H2, which seems to be a bit of an impasse.

[PARAGON]

Well, just two pennies from an unimportant guy, and if into obloquy i am to be driven for saying this, then so be it. I mean nobody offense.

But what has this post harmed? If somebody wants to spend their time dreaming of 4wds in what ways they can, it certainly won't cause me to lose much sleep, even if my truck got rated lower than i think it deserves. At times it seems that anything even involving hummers or offroading has to eventually wind up drenched in negativity. bling -vs- no bling, the mileage thing, and whatever else. If i have contributed to that at times, apologies, and i shall submit to a flogging on white knuckle hill. That is if any of the hummer gangs let my jeep come along with my H2, which seems to be a bit of an impasse.Then what's the point.

If you post something and just want to have "yes" people post just for the helluvit..... tis not the place. If someone wants to waste their time on something as futile as this was, so-be-it. Post it in a forum such as this and expect to be ridiculed for it. Such is life. And such as life should be.

[31_bandits]

Then what's the point.

If you post something and just want to have "yes" people post just for the helluvit..... tis not the place. If someone wants to waste their time on something as futile as this was, so-be-it. Post it in a forum such as this and expect to be ridiculed for it. Such is life. And such as life should be.

fair enough.

to offer a view from the other side of the park, is there some passage of manliness in hummer foruming that bans constructive criticism?

:D

[PARAGON]

fair enough.

to offer a view from the other side of the park, is there some passage of manliness in hummer foruming that bans constructive criticism?

:Dnothing that bans it, such as how I was able to get away with my constructive criticism of your post;) :D :D

It's just all in fun. Some things are taken way too seriously.

[PARAGON]

There is this ONE thing you can do to get by here........

post pics of your wife's bewbies

sorry, old forum joke

[31_bandits]

There is this ONE thing you can do to get by here........

post pics of your wife's bewbies

sorry, old forum joke

i'm not sure what effect that would have... :cool:

My basic take on things is mostly live and let live, and as a general rule that doesn't seem to shorten life spans.

[PARAGON]

i'm not sure what effect that would have... :cool:

My basic take on things is mostly live and let live, and as a general rule that doesn't seem to shorten life spans.mine is when something enters your field of vision, fire upon it until no more movement is detected

or something like what you said.;)

[HummBebe]

There is this ONE thing you can do to get by here........

post pics of your wife's bewbies

sorry, old forum joke

That is so:rolleyes: last year.;)

[HIHUMMER]

"A" for effort Wisha. Not like you wrote it up...you just posted it. Chalk it up to lesson learn...don't always believe what you read. :rolleyes: ;)

[HummerNewbie]

That is so:rolleyes: last year.;)

But it's still funny :D

[31_bandits]

mine is when something enters your field of vision, fire upon it until no more movement is detected

or something like what you said.;)

lol

i guess that explains why you don't post pictures of your wifes bewbies...? :p

[31_bandits]

"A" for effort and testicular fortitude Wisha. Not like you wrote it up...you just posted it. Chalk it up to lesson learn...don't always believe what you read. :rolleyes: ;)

i fixed that a little bit. :p


In my experience with offroadin' the simple things seem very important. An H2 gets bent license plates and so forth, which seems to mean its approach angle is challenged, which seems to mean (as short of the H1 or modified trucks its approach angle is quite a bit better than anything else i think) not many other stock trucks would be able to do the same things.

The H2s basic limitation seems to be breakover angle, as you can and do get the thing hung up.

[Sewie]

An H2 gets bent license plates and so forth, which seems to mean its approach angle is challenged

No, it means it was a stupid place to mount the lic. plate.

[31_bandits]

No, it means it was a stupid place to mount the lic. plate.

:p

[31_bandits]

Just a quick note on approach, breakover and depature on the H2. The approach is one of the best on any stock vehicle...ever as is the departure. Both the breakover and the departure are better than an H1's

S

its the best if one considers the H1 absent (approach), is it not? And that is what i was trying to get at. If the approach angle of the H2 is challenged most other stock trucks are going to have some serious problems. Often it seems on hills or ridges steep enough to make the H2 sweat, a pickup and the like ... can't even try, just wedge the nose and go home.

I think about things like LRs and the G and i just always wind up at that - if my H2 stubs its nose (and it does), these guys are just plain hosed.

The breakover angle ... well that's really cool that its so good relative to other stocks, but typically when i have a problem it involves getting hung up on a ridge.


Another aspect of the H2s design that i really appreciate in my offroading time is the smooth, clean underbody. The skid and that tube frame lead to a main frame that can drag its heart out (except for those tensioning bolts). Contrast the Rubicon which has a sort of forward-scoop shaped underbody skid plate that just looks destined to pack full of sand and gravel and dirt and snow and mud. Or the H3 which has those low-hanging cross members in the mid-section.

Then there's the H1 with IDS in all corners, and an extremely high and smooth underbody.

skipping long blathering mumbo jumbo, it simply seems to me that offroad situations are so varied that no one vehicle could ever be "best". All of width, weight, IDS-vs-solid axles, TCS-vs-lockers and whatever else seem to have both pros and cons, each an advantage or a disadvantage depending upon the situation. That noted i do realize that (i think) wisha originally posted a rock crawling rating...

[DennisAJC]

No, it means it was a stupid place to mount the lic. plate.

LMAO!!!!!:D

[31_bandits]

My bad, H1 is 29 and the H2 is 27.5 or 25.8 without airride.

S

that is pretty close, though. i won't bother complaining when i get hung up anymore, i'll just think "dang, everybody else would have, too". j/k


to contrast, i saw a jeep once with 44" tires and a 8 or 12 or whatever inch lift... something like that had basically irrelevant approach and departure angles (as in tires always hit first), and the breakover must have been sick.

but... it wasn't street legal, got about 1/2 the mileage of my H2, and i bet i could still find some tricks and places it couldn't reproduce or follow. That isn't a boast, mind, just a repeat observation that offroading tasks are really really different. To be sure, that thing could do many, many things my truck couldn't dream of.

[Boss Hoss]

While i want my 5 minutes back that i spent reading this thread, i am grateful to know i should never challenge a LR3, FJ Cruiser and most improtantly a Tourag. This may save me some money on future bets i could have potentially entered thinking i was in the favorable vehicle.