Buying new pistol, need advice

[evldave]

ok, here's my deal. I have a shotgun, which I use mostly for hunting, but w/slug & 0000 shot works well for home defense (behind the locks and my 2 75# dogs).

What I'm looking for now, is a pistol, something I can carry w/me. I used to have Karr .40 cal w/3.5" barrel. Honestly, I hated it - too short barrel, plus a trigger/double-pull safety. I'm not too interested in home safety, with the dogs & shotgun. If I was, I've but a 15 round .22 w/hollow points - about a good as a home defense pistol as you can find (behind the shotgun).

What I need is a pistol (not revolver, hate 'em), with >6 round clip, with a real safety, with a >4" barrel, that can stop a bear/wolf/cougar/etc. I'll use it mostly for personal protection in my car, but want a single gun for both traveling protection + camping/outdoors. I was in Alaska a couple years ago and ended up 10' from a black bear. Everything worked out, but I have had a run-in w/the shotgun where my brother and I dumped 6 rounds of 4 shot into a small black bear while pheasant hunting near Yakima WA. I never want to be that freaked out again - I want a pistol I trust to take care of that for me. Pull it and shoot, no worries.

Without a bunch of BS about gun safety (I'm comfortable w/guns, been shooting them for 15 years), what's the best gun for my needs under $700? I don't mind used, don't need a laser sight, won't use it for target practice, can shoot quite well under pressure, and just need something with stopping power. Thanks.

[DRTYFN]

Can't go wrong with a nice Glock. Maintenance-free and nice to shoot.

[Big Z]

No no-sense stoppers! get a 45 or 50 cal auto!

[KenP]

Can't go wrong with a nice Glock. Maintenance-free and nice to shoot.I love our Glock, but our Taurus PT-945 with Magsafe's will put a real hurtin' on a bear.

I did a short search and didn't find anything negative about the gun, but I'm sure there are some.

Link to forum about it:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=1449

[MarineHawk]

I agree with DRTY - it's hard to beat a Glock as an all-around gun. If I had to pick just one handgun for all purposes, I'd probably pick my Glock 27 - it holds ten potent .40 S&W rounds, has a 3.5" barrell, recoils less than any other .40 S&W I have shot (I own 6 of them) yet is smaller than a Walther PPK/S.
Yet, respecting your perceived need for an external safety, semi-auto, and 4"+ barrell, my favorite with those limitations would be this in .40S&W: http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/index.jsp?loc=101&SITEID=A&PartNumber=704501.
I've had one since 1994. It's worked flawlessly ever since, and shoots better than I do.

Of course, IMO, you'd be crazy to be in many parts of Alaska where the Griz and Brown bear roam with anything less than a .44 Mag revolver. If I were in the Alaska wildernesses, and if I really didn't want to carry a rifle around, I'd probably have one of these: http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=5505&return=Y in .454 Casull.
The .44 Mag-and-greater semi-autos, while novel are kind of silly IMO.

[Racer-X]

I did a lot of research when I bought my pistol for the same reasons. I was doing a lot of backwoods hiking. If you want to stop a bear of any size a .357 or 44 mag is the ticket. Better yet is what I carry now - bear spray.

[The Juice]

Be a man. Use a knife.

[ssgharkness020147]

If you want to be able to stop a bear the lowest cal you should be looking at is the 45. Period. .40's are great guns with good stopping power, but we are talking about bears not people a bear will require more. Honestly I dont think you need advise about A pistol, but rather (2) pistols. You want one gun to serve for personal protection and extreme circumstances and I dont really think you are going to find a single gun to suit both rolls. But if you only want to buy one gun for both purposes my vote is for a .45.

[PARAGON]

Well, we be at it again.

No, a .45 is no better for bear than a .40 would be. Simple ballistics. If you stuffed some grains of powder behind that .45, we'd be talking a different story. It's not just only the caliber of the projectile that matters.

Secondly, and going all the way back up to the top. Evldave, you need to seek advice from some professionals. Because your statement about a .22 being as good as any home defense pistol, is, well, just ignorant.

The rest of it, is just silly, IMO.

[MarineHawk]

No, a .45 is no better for bear than a .40 would be. Simple ballistics. If you stuffed some grains of powder behind that .45, we'd be talking a different story.

Exactly. Both calibers can be bought with well-designed bullets of similar weight (the .45 comes in higher weights, such as the 230 gr FMJ, but they are neither the most powerful, nor most effective .45 loads). Thus, the kinetic energy (that's what kills & disrupts things) of these cartridges provides a fair estimate of their stopping power. The most powerful loads most mfrs offer in these two cartridges are a 155 gr load with 447 ft-lbs of energy in the .40 S&W and a 476 ft-lbs 165 gr load in the .45 Auto. 29 extra ft-lbs of energy in a bullet of comparable weight can't possibly make one a big bear killer and one merely a personal defense cartridge. Further, each of the mfrs lists the test barrel for the .40 is as 4" and the test barrel for the .45 as 5" (e.g., compare at http://www.federalcartridge.com/ballistics/Ammo_Search.aspx?act=choose&firearm=2&s1=1 ). Going from a 4" to a 5" barrel would likely add about 40 ft/sec of velocity to the .40 load (from 1140 to about 1180), which would yield an energy of 482 ft-lbs for the .40. Thus, it you're shooting the .40 and the .45 out of the same length barrel the .40 probably has MORE energy than the .45. Corbon, is one rare example of a mfr who sells hotter loads. It's most power full .40 puts out 526 ft-lbs out of a 4" barrel and its most powerful .45 puts out 573 ft-lbs from a 5" barrel ( http://www.dakotaammo.net/products/corbon/convjhp.htm ). Again a negligible difference, especially if you even the barrel lengths. And a .357 only puts out from .480 to 570 ft-lbs depending on the load. Thus, I can't see how it's incredibly superior to either the .40 or .45 -- other than that it has the word "magnum" in its name.

A .454 Cassull can hit something with 1,900 ft-lbs of energy in a 7.5" barrel (a .44 mag also puts out about a 1,000 ft-lbs of energy). Either are much preferable to a .40, .45, or .357 when facing a bear of any size. All that being said, I'd much rather have a .40 or a .45 when facing a bear than either (1) nothing at all or (2) some pepper spray.

[f5fstop]

If a safety is a requirement, a Tarus or a H&K. Caliber is up to you, but if it is a grizzly, I would use nothng smaller than a S&W .50

[CO Hummer]

Can't go wrong with a nice Glock. Maintenance-free and nice to shoot.

X2!!!!

Glocks all the way. Get a G23, a nice snappy .40 cal.

I've been shooting Glocks for years and have NEVER, EVER had a jam or misfire.

[PARAGON]

X2!!!!

Glocks all the way. Get a G23, a nice snappy .40 cal.

I've been shooting Glocks for years and have NEVER, EVER had a jam or misfire.You have not shot enough then;) :D

[CO Hummer]

You have not shot enough then;) :D

wrong!

[PARAGON]

wrong!wronger

[Racer-X]

And a .357 only puts out from .480 to 570 ft-lbs depending on the load. Thus, I can't see how it's incredibly superior to either the .40 or .45 -- other than that it has the word "magnum" in its name.



I once had a bear take off running when he read "magnum" on the side of my gun. ;) :D

[Wisha Haddan H3]

I agree with all the comments so far about bullet weight and power. But your best bet is to rent some pistols at a local range and try different ammo. Accuracy depends on the ammo and how it fits your hand.

I like a SA/DA semi-auto pistol with half-moon sights that fits snug in my hand, unsafes easily and doesn't snag on the draw. Don't care for Glocks and Rugers, but give me a full-size Beretta, dehorned model 1911, or my old EEA .45 and I'm good to go.

For bear-stopping power, load ammo you use and trust, .40 caliber +Ps or higher. When I first bought my EAA Witness .45, I loaded it with +P+ JHPs. Even with the ported barrel, it kicked like a mule and ruined my followup shots. I switched to regular +P and my double-taps improved.

[MarK M]

no need for big calibers... just get more magazines... its fun to unload with multiple mags. :D

they will eventually go down!

BTW, dont wait until he charges. When they stand up start unloading. you get a nice clean shot of the soft side. ;)

[Mr. I - Man]

Fvck it go with a Wildey .475 Mag:eek: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0b/Wildey_survivor18.jpg

[KenP]

I want a bullet that'll bounce around in the criminal's body for a little while.:D

[Lucifer]

You're best bet for stopping a bear is bear spray. For killing a bear, a .44mag is the minimum you would want. Just aim between the nose and eyes. Anything smaller, and you may have better luck trying to shoot out its teeth so the mauling won't hurt as much.

[Agriv8r]

What I need is a pistol (not revolver, hate 'em), with >6 round clip, with a real safety, with a >4" barrel, that can stop a bear/wolf/cougar/etc. I'll use it mostly for personal protection in my car.

wow!!! Where do you drive?:D

[Agriv8r]

sorry couldn't resist. I have a desert eagle 44 with interchangeable barrels to 50 cal. semiauto and will stop most things living, dead, manmade..well you get the picture.

[Grape Ape]

I would agree that a Glock would be a good choice for your needs. Take a look at the model 30. It is a 45 with 4 inch barrel/10 shot magazine. It weighs in at 24 oz, so it would not be too bad to tote with you.
I have shot thousands of rounds through my duty issue model 22 (40 cal) with no problems. The only time I have seen this weapon misfeed is when the shooter "limp wrists", not having a firm grip on the weapon. I have seen this happen with other autos also.

[evldave]

Secondly, and going all the way back up to the top. Evldave, you need to seek advice from some professionals. Because your statement about a .22 being as good as any home defense pistol, is, well, just ignorant.



oh, I'm gonna have to disagree. A .22 w/15 round clip & hollow points at close range (inside my house, once they get past the locks and the dogs) will easy be the best pistol for simple home defense. I've shot a lot of pistols (not as much as probably many of you, but everything from a .22 to a .50 cal that my old boss had) and the easiest to aid and shoot repeatedly is a .22 - the lowest kick = the highest repeatability. Don't get me wrong, in a single shot setup, a bigger gun would be better, but if I'm in a situation where I'm shooting a gun to save my life, I want repeatability and lots of bullets. I can't guarantee my aim (no matter how much practice) when some crazy fiknut is in my house, has made it past the alarm, the locks, the dogs, and I left the shotgun in the safe. My 2 cents...:)

[evldave]

Be a man. Use a knife.

Sorry, I don't have your expertise in killing 'wildlife' with a blade. I'll leave that to you:)

[evldave]

But your best bet is to rent some pistols at a local range and try different ammo. Accuracy depends on the ammo and how it fits your hand.

That's a good idea, I've got a bunch of target shooting friends. I'll just borrow there's (done it before, but just for goofing around).



Won't get a Glock - too light. I light a heavy gun, the glocks feel a little too plasticy. Might just be me - haven't shot one before, but I've started looking and haven't found one I like.


[quote=For bear-stopping power, load ammo you use and trust, .40 caliber +Ps or higher. When I first bought my EAA Witness .45, I loaded it with +P+ JHPs. Even with the ported barrel, it kicked like a mule and ruined my followup shots. I switched to regular +P and my double-taps improved.

don't know what any of that +p+jhp means, but my Karr kicked like a bish and I hated 2 shots in a row, I could never bring it back on target for the 2nd shot. What is a +jhp load?

[Racer-X]

A .22 w/15 round clip & hollow points at close range (inside my house, once they get past the locks and the dogs) will easy be the best pistol for simple home defense.

There is some validity to the above. It was one of the guns recommended by a couple of local gun shops here when I was asking questions about home defense. The nice thing about HOLLOW POINT 22 is it's unlikely the travel through walls and hit the kids in adjoining rooms.

I have two guns that are loaded near my bed a 357 revolver and a auto 22 with hollow points.

[evldave]

wow!!! Where do you drive?:D

I've seen bear in Alaska, Washington, Montana, and Wyoming, all in person, most in a car. I was once on a bike trip in Alaska, and got caught up between a cow moose & her calf. Scared the crap out of me, but I got out safely.

I've been backpacking a lot more than usualy this year, and next year am planning 2-3 longer backpacking trips, all in bear country (Glacier, North Cascades, British Columbia). Rather than just carry around a gun, I want to take some time to get used to it and shoot it regularly to get familiar with it before I need it. For my house, I've got a shotgun, I don't need a pistol, the only reason for this gun is in the absolute worst-case scenario. If that ever happens, I don't want a pussy poser gun (I considered the Karr a poser gun).

[GeorgeSSSS]

My friend's son is a Navy seal officer and I'm told he carries a Glock in 45 cal. Since he can choose whatever he wants, enough said about whether Glocks are a good choice.

However, he isn't shooting at bears. Unless you have some experience shooting at moving game (especially dangerous game that is moving AT YOU), it seems to me that stopping power is your most important value. That means at least 44 magnum. Also, I don't think you want a pistol with a safety on it that you need to work when you only have moments to get a shot or two off at a bear. There are no small 44 magnum pistols to my knowledge.

Given all of the above, my humble recommendation would be to buy a Smith & Wesson 329PD. It has a 4" barrel, scandium alloy frame, and a titanium cylinder -- -- making it the lightest 44 Magnum on the planet. That way, you won't be discouraged to carry it in the bush.

Then I would spend another $100 (more or less) and have a first class gunsmith polish the mating surfaces of the revolver's action and take a piece out of the trigger spring -- -- this will lighten up the trigger pull.

I'd also have a ramp front sight installed (if it doesn't already have one) so it pulls from a holster smoothly. Then I'd get a good leather holster (I think you can draw from leather easier than ballistic nylon).

If you're shooting at bear, I'd buy three boxes of PROLOAD .44 Magnum 270 grain "GAME STOPPER" JSP bullets (that's 60 rounds) and I'd shoot two boxes at the range.

Then, I'd practice pulling the gun from the holster and shooting it EMPTY at least 20 or 30 times. Then I'd try it 15 times with live ammo. This will leave you with 5 bullets. Load the gun with an empty chamber under the hammer.

If everything works well and feels good at that point, I'd say you have a gun you can stake your life on for the next 30 to 40 years -- -- provided you shoot it occasionally to stay in practice.

I also recommend getting other opinions, but those are mine.

Good luck and pray you never have to use it against anything but paper.

George SSSS

[evldave]

My friend's son is a Navy seal officer and I'm told he carries a Glock in 45 cal. Since he can choose whatever he wants, enough said about whether Glocks are a good choice.

However, he isn't shooting at bears. Unless you have some experience shooting at moving game (especially dangerous game that is moving AT YOU), it seems to me that stopping power is your most important value. That means at least 44 magnum. Also, I don't think you want a pistol with a safety on it that you need to work when you only have moments to get a shot or two off at a bear. There are no small 44 magnum pistols to my knowledge.

Given all of the above, my humble recommendation would be to buy a Smith & Wesson 329PD. It has a 4" barrel, scandium alloy frame, and a titanium cylinder -- -- making it the lightest 44 Magnum on the planet. That way, you won't be discouraged to carry it in the bush.

Then I would spend another $100 (more or less) and have a first class gunsmith polish the mating surfaces of the revolver's action and take a piece out of the trigger spring -- -- this will lighten up the trigger pull.

I'd also have a ramp front sight installed (if it doesn't already have one) so it pulls from a holster smoothly. Then I'd get a good leather holster (I think you can draw from leather easier than ballistic nylon).

If you're shooting at bear, I'd buy three boxes of PROLOAD .44 Magnum 270 grain "GAME STOPPER" JSP bullets (that's 60 rounds) and I'd shoot two boxes at the range.

Then, I'd practice pulling the gun from the holster and shooting it EMPTY at least 20 or 30 times. Then I'd try it 15 times with live ammo. This will leave you with 5 bullets. Load the gun with an empty chamber under the hammer.

If everything works well and feels good at that point, I'd say you have a gun you can stake your life on for the next 30 to 40 years -- -- provided you shoot it occasionally to stay in practice.

I also recommend getting other opinions, but those are mine.

Good luck and pray you never have to use it against anything but paper.

George SSSS


Been hunting birds for almost 20 years - shooting small-moving fast objects doesn't bother me much. I'm moving to a place that's 10 minutes from an area I can shoot anytime I want (forest land), so practice will come regularly. I will try out the 329PD, does it come w/a 4.5" barrel? I prefer something a little longer. Price might become an issue, I've only got about $700 for the gun. Thanks for the input

[GeorgeSSSS]

Smith & Wesson are definitely pricey -- -- they're just what I'm familiar with. I know Ruger makes some fine 44 mags, and their pricing is more reasonable. Ruger revolvers are known for their robust frames that hold up well under heavy loads. I took a look at their website and saw the Redhawk RH-445 with a 5 1/2" barrel that looks like a really nice package. MSRP under $700. Probably get it for less if you look around. I see they also have leather holsters made specifically for their guns. Very nice.

IMHO, a Ruger would be a rock solid choice in 44 mag.

Get other opinions, but those are mine.

Hope this helps.

George SSSS

[PARAGON]

There is some validity to the above. It was one of the guns recommended by a couple of local gun shops here when I was asking questions about home defense. The nice thing about HOLLOW POINT 22 is it's unlikely the travel through walls and hit the kids in adjoining rooms.

I have two guns that are loaded near my bed a 357 revolver and a auto 22 with hollow points.Sorry, there is absolutely no validity to it.

I'm sorry, sitting idle while someone makes dumb remarks is not going to happen.

Someone breaking into your home will at the very least have adrenaline rushing, shoot them (or at them) and they will have a huge adrenaline rush. A .22 caliber just does not contain enough mass to do much to the human body unless you get some lucky hit.

There is a reason that it is against the law in some states to hunt large game with small caliber weapons, such as the .22. It does nothing but injure.

I continue to be amazed at people who will rationalize putting their life in jeopardy. You, literally, are better off with a knife than a .22.

I implore you to seek a professional's opinion, not a gun clerk, a real professional. On top of that, there is tons of information on the web about home protection and I'll doubt you'll find one valid one that suggests one utilize the .22 as a home defense caliber.

[PARAGON]

http://www.chuckhawks.com/guns_home_defense.htm

[PARAGON]

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob99.html

[evldave]

Sorry, there is absolutely no validity to it.

I'm sorry, sitting idle while someone makes dumb remarks is not going to happen.

I implore you to seek a professional's opinion, not a gun clerk, a real professional. On top of that, there is tons of information on the web about home protection and I'll doubt you'll find one valid one that suggests one utilize the .22 as a home defense caliber.

What do you consider a professional? A cop? How about a SWAT team member (and ex Marine Sniper)? One of my poker buddies is a detective on the local police force (and son of the captain), another guy I've shot pistols with is a SWAT team member. Both say a .22 with lots of bullets can be better in a panic situation than a larger pistol with limited shots and a lower possibility of 2nd shot landing because of the kick.

So who's experts are better?:rolleyes: Are police considered professionals? I'm not overly concerned one way or the other (I have a shotgun, which I think we can all agree is the best home defense weapon). I'm more interested in stopping power out in the woods, where I know a rifle would be best, but I'm not backpacking w/a rifle unless I'm specifically out to shoot stuff.

[Racer-X]

Well, it's true I was relying directly on what I was told - but both were a little more than a store "clerk".

The "logic" made sense to me. I was basically told this. First they both recommended shotguns as the best home defense. When I insisted on a pistol they both asked about my living situation, Did I have children, where they sleeping on the same floor etc. They asked how much I would practice shooting.

A 22 with hollow points holding lots of rounds was as close to a shotgun in pistol version. Use the spray and prey method. :D Factor in the panic thing.

On the off chance a a round made it to one of the children it could only be a fragment of a small bullet and unlikely to do fatal damage.

I never suggested a 22 has much stopping power with a single round.

BTW - I bought the .357 that day.

[PARAGON]

What do you consider a professional? A cop?Being a law enforcement officer, in no way, entitles one to being a Home Defense nor a handgun professional.

You are ignorant, want to continue to be ignorant and no one else can change that but you. If that .22 is so effective, why not take it with you to stop the bears? Your reply to that question is the same reason why you don't plan to employ the .22 as a home defense weapon. It's simply ignorance to suggest that it is, in any manner, effective. The capacity is a moot point. You can purchase a .45ACP which will hold 15 rounds. Recoil is a joke, if that is your reasoning. Simple practice will provide the necessary skill to employ the use of the handgun without it becoming an issue.

[Big Z]

When I replied the first time, I should have just said, biggest cal you can find, (and mags to go with----for bear.) I've harvested Bear with Rifle and bow and arrow, never with pistol. I carry a 44 redhawk in bear country. I also handload, and make some serious thumpers! But more important than all that--and the type of pistol you have--It's when that BEAR is within a few yards and less! MAD!, Injured, guarding a cub, or spooked, Or! ---let's just say, most will just piss themselfs!--so the less you have to figure out, (safety lever, chambering) the better the chance of firing a round if needed. Most of time, bears will run, And crackin a couple into the ground if needed, usually gets the same reaction.

Having said that, and wanting an autoloader, the Sig Pro in 40 cal--Bigger if made--not searched---might be a good choice. Single/Double Action auto, no safety lever to mess with, VERY good shooter, and mild recoil compaired to some of my others. jmho :)

[evldave]

Being a law enforcement officer, in no way, entitles one to being a Home Defense nor a handgun professional.

You are ignorant, want to continue to be ignorant and no one else can change that but you. If that .22 is so effective, why not take it with you to stop the bears? Your reply to that question is the same reason why you don't plan to employ the .22 as a home defense weapon. It's simply ignorance to suggest that it is, in any manner, effective. The capacity is a moot point. You can purchase a .45ACP which will hold 15 rounds. Recoil is a joke, if that is your reasoning. Simple practice will provide the necessary skill to employ the use of the handgun without it becoming an issue.

Dude, you need to calm the fuk down. I'm looking for advice, not an ass-reaming. I've got friends, who know what they are talking about, saying small caliber w/many rounds, with low recoil, is good for home defense (keep pulling the trigger, most will hit). People I know who are willing to have a rational conversation about it sure outweigh some dickwad on the internet who obviously can't have a normal conversation without throwing insults around.

[PARAGON]

Dude, you need to calm the fuk down. I'm looking for advice, not an ass-reaming. I've got friends, who know what they are talking about, saying small caliber w/many rounds, with low recoil, is good for home defense (keep pulling the trigger, most will hit). People I know who are willing to have a rational conversation about it sure outweigh some dickwad on the internet who obviously can't have a normal conversation without throwing insults around.When you would like to have a "rational conversation" feel free to join in.

There's nothing rational about your logic. You want the "stopping power" for a bear, but not a person in your house?

"keep pulling the trigger, most will hit"!?!?!?!??!?! This is the type of ignorance I am referring to. It's simply not the case. If you would seek a professional's advice you would realize that most do not "hit", moreover with the trained such as SWAT or other LEOs you seem to subscribe to. Many times magazines are emptied at 10 feet without a single hit. You DO NOT have friends who know what they are talking about if they tell you to utilize a small caliber handgun for home defense in deference to other handguns.

Again, how do you rationalize wanting something that will "stop a bear", but say that you think a .22 is the best for home defense? Caliber size makes sense for the bear but doesn't for human? Saying you are ignorant is not an "insult." If you continue defending your stance, then you will be in the realm of stupid, which is insulting. Being ignorant is OK, but not attempting to learn and find out the facts from those who know is stupid.

And FWIW, I have not once told you to rely on anyone on this forum's advice. There are individuals and groups that are in the industry specifically for home defense. I have suggested you seek their advice. I provided a couple of links to two of some of the most notable ones.

[GeorgeSSSS]

... I've harvested Bear with Rifle and bow and arrow, never with pistol. I carry a 44 redhawk in bear country. I also handload, and make some serious thumpers! ...

Big Z: What weight and type of bullet do you handload for bear in your 44 redhawk? I was thinking of 270 grain JSP. What's your opinion?

George SSSS

[Big Z]

Big Z: What weight and type of bullet do you handload for bear in your 44 redhawk? I was thinking of 270 grain JSP. What's your opinion?

George SSSS

This sums up my opnion! :) -----BIG! :D

Your 300 grain with 19 gr of H110 is about right, I use 20.0 of H110 with my 300gr cast.

The reason for cast, hard cast bullets is that it is a solid that we don't want or expect to expand. At 44 or 45 caliber, we already have a big hole. Any expansion in a hand gun bullet, at handgun velocities, is so uncertain and also limits (stops) penetration and therefore killing power. It is far better to punch a 44 caliber hole all the way through than a 76 caliber hole a few inches. There is only so much energy available and if it is used up destroying the bullet and making wide shallow wounds it is of little use. We do not want a big bore revolver bullet to expand but just perform like a solid.

Cast Performance makes very good LBT style hard (BHN 21) cast heat treated solids. The heat treatment makes them hard but not brittle. In the old days we cast our own and to make them very hard we would add so much antimony that they would get brittle and actuall crumble around the edges at impact, almost as bad as expansion. Also Bear Tooth Bullets makes these hard cast heat treated solids. There are three basic styles, Long Flat Nose (LFN), Wide Long Nose (WLN), and Wide Flat Nose (WFN). Each having some advantage for certain application over the other. The LFN is the long range bullet (200-300 yds) and offers the best profile for long shots. The WFN gives the best terminal performance and likely the best choice for most hunting applications at normal handgun range (0-75yds) and the WLN is a compromise between the two and often the most accurate. Note, they all have flat noses. That adds to the wounding capability and impact stability for straight line penetration, hits like a hammer. Cast bullets can be had sized to .429", .430" or .431" (for the 44) as needed to fit the cylinder throats, (CP's normally come sized .430")which will give better accuracy and velocity. The WFN's have a full diameter band that loads touching the throats, if the bullets are too big you will have to push hard to get them in the cylinder. Normally throats of the cylinders will accept up .431". Only Freedom Arms makes very tight, uniform cylinders. My 5 1/2" barrel Ruger SBH will shoot the 290 gr LFN Bear Tooth into about an inch and a half at fifty yards, and that is as good as I can do with the iron sights. This load is 20.0 grains of Vihta N110, a better powder than the ball powders, and velocity is 1294 fps. That's about all I can get from the little 5 1/2" 44 Mag. I use the same powder charge for the CP 300 WFN and velocity is 1289 fps. Pressure is about 36,000 psi and it burns very clean, no smoke, no unburned powder. And the best part, same velocity at -20F or +70F.

Snowwolfe is using a solid bullet made of copper. I have very limited experience with them and can't say how well they will do, my concern is do they fit the throats of the cylinder as well as my custom cast bullets can. If Brooks made them for him I guess they could be sized to the throats of his revolver. Also a lighter bullet will not carry as much momentum so, even though energy is higher with the increased velocity, your performance may vary. I'll tip my hat to him since he has the good experience with them and I'm sure he's right about the penetration and killing power. There is a limit at which cast bullets can be driven and not break up at impact (about 1800 fps) and that limit will be higher for copper. I will say that a cast bullet is almost always faster at less pressure than a jacketed and I would think solid copper, due to the lower friction of the lead vs copper. We would have to do some checks on that, grain for grain of powder and bullet, and chronograph everything. More work!


Check out Laser Cast Bullets @ Oregon trail

[PARAGON]

Para is an ******* on elcova. All he does is insult people. Hey but if I was that fat I would have a huge chip on my shoulder too.I'm sure your contribution is duly noted

[RIC-H0]

OK...After all the jumping back and forth, acusations and banter, what it really comes down to is, how to increase your odds of hitting an intruder(ie. recoil) with out endangering your children (ie, ricochets or sheetrock penetrations).
My recommendation FWIW is, get yourself a decent 357 revolver, when it home keep it loaded with 38cal. Glaser Blue (minimal ricochet), and when you get out and about load it with alternating 357 FMJ and Black Talons, this way if you must shoot through glass, the 1st shot will shatter and the follow-up with damage.
You can always bring along a speedloader if you need more, but odds are, you wont!
My Colt King Cobra has never let me down...
Hell... just the site of a big revolver has an intimidation factor.


Good luck in your search, but no matter what you get...Practice, Practice, Practice!!!

[GeorgeSSSS]

EvlDave: Big Z is making some good points at post #43 about using a solid 300 grain bullet instead of a 270 grain jsp. I've heard variations of this theme before regarding pistols and grizzley bears. I'm not certain I agree, but I'm not certain I disagree either.

Like I said, get some other opinions.

George SSSS

[Mr. I - Man]

Fvck it go with a Wildey .475 Mag:eek: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0b/Wildey_survivor18.jpg This will knock down any thing period. Good shooting technique or not!

[.r.e.r.e.d.r.u.m.o.e.n]

Para is an ******* on elcova. All he does is insult people. Hey but if I was that fat I would have a huge chip on my shoulder too.

But instead your a POS that either intentionally killed your kid or are guilty of negligent homicide. Which is it? You POS.

Have you melted that hottun into a piece of slag or at least removed it?

[DennisAJC]

I think he murdered his son. But let's let the courts decide that.

Soon people are going to look at you differently Alec. The truth is coming soon.

Your pal,

Dennis

[evldave]

WTF? Seems like no thread is safe.

From the looks of things, for what I'm looking for (bear safety, don't care about home defense, I have a shotgun) a minimum .40 or .45 w/large load or larger caliber, maybe .44 w/ a smaller load. Since I'm going to be backpacking, seems like a smaller caliber with larger load would be better from a weight perpective. Now at least I have someplace to start when looking. Next step will be (ignore this insanity) to hit a gunshow or two, maybe some stores, and get a feel. Then borrow/rent guns and shoot to see how they feel. Thanks to all for their constructive comments on my original question. To all the rest, hope you have something better to do with your time.

[evldave]

This sums up my opnion! :) -----BIG! :D

Your 300 grain with 19 gr of H110 is about right, I use 20.0 of H110 with my 300gr cast.

The reason for cast, hard cast bullets is that it is a solid that we don't want or expect to expand. At 44 or 45 caliber, we already have a big hole. Any expansion in a hand gun bullet, at handgun velocities, is so uncertain and also limits (stops) penetration and therefore killing power. It is far better to punch a 44 caliber hole all the way through than a 76 caliber hole a few inches. There is only so much energy available and if it is used up destroying the bullet and making wide shallow wounds it is of little use. We do not want a big bore revolver bullet to expand but just perform like a solid.

Cast Performance makes very good LBT style hard (BHN 21) cast heat treated solids. The heat treatment makes them hard but not brittle. In the old days we cast our own and to make them very hard we would add so much antimony that they would get brittle and actuall crumble around the edges at impact, almost as bad as expansion. Also Bear Tooth Bullets makes these hard cast heat treated solids. There are three basic styles, Long Flat Nose (LFN), Wide Long Nose (WLN), and Wide Flat Nose (WFN). Each having some advantage for certain application over the other. The LFN is the long range bullet (200-300 yds) and offers the best profile for long shots. The WFN gives the best terminal performance and likely the best choice for most hunting applications at normal handgun range (0-75yds) and the WLN is a compromise between the two and often the most accurate. Note, they all have flat noses. That adds to the wounding capability and impact stability for straight line penetration, hits like a hammer. Cast bullets can be had sized to .429", .430" or .431" (for the 44) as needed to fit the cylinder throats, (CP's normally come sized .430")which will give better accuracy and velocity. The WFN's have a full diameter band that loads touching the throats, if the bullets are too big you will have to push hard to get them in the cylinder. Normally throats of the cylinders will accept up .431". Only Freedom Arms makes very tight, uniform cylinders. My 5 1/2" barrel Ruger SBH will shoot the 290 gr LFN Bear Tooth into about an inch and a half at fifty yards, and that is as good as I can do with the iron sights. This load is 20.0 grains of Vihta N110, a better powder than the ball powders, and velocity is 1294 fps. That's about all I can get from the little 5 1/2" 44 Mag. I use the same powder charge for the CP 300 WFN and velocity is 1289 fps. Pressure is about 36,000 psi and it burns very clean, no smoke, no unburned powder. And the best part, same velocity at -20F or +70F.

Snowwolfe is using a solid bullet made of copper. I have very limited experience with them and can't say how well they will do, my concern is do they fit the throats of the cylinder as well as my custom cast bullets can. If Brooks made them for him I guess they could be sized to the throats of his revolver. Also a lighter bullet will not carry as much momentum so, even though energy is higher with the increased velocity, your performance may vary. I'll tip my hat to him since he has the good experience with them and I'm sure he's right about the penetration and killing power. There is a limit at which cast bullets can be driven and not break up at impact (about 1800 fps) and that limit will be higher for copper. I will say that a cast bullet is almost always faster at less pressure than a jacketed and I would think solid copper, due to the lower friction of the lead vs copper. We would have to do some checks on that, grain for grain of powder and bullet, and chronograph everything. More work!


Check out Laser Cast Bullets @ Oregon trail

way more than I understand, but I can print and take w/me to call BS at a gunshow. Thanks for the help!

[The Juice]

WTF? Seems like no thread is safe.


To all the rest, hope you have something better to do with your time.




Didn't you hear? AlecW might have mudered his son and he might be going away for awhile.

I'll be keeping an eye on the papers man.

[Donkey_Kong]

Alec??? Any comments???

***Crickets***

Find another forum. This one won't be so forgiving soon.

[The Juice]

He'll have a better shot at running from the po po in a Hummer than me in ma Bronco.

[Agriv8r]

....... a better shot at running from the po po in a Hummer than me in ma Bronco.


LMFAO:D that funny

[MarineHawk]

As far as Redhawk's go, I have and love the 5-1/2" blued one ( http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdResults?function=famid&famid=6&variation=Blued&bct=Yes&type=Revolver ). If I was going to potentially encounter Grizzlies, I would probably get a heavier load, but I just carry the fire-breathing 1,610 fps/1,036fpe 180 gr loads. I'm pretty sure that that will stop a black bear.

As far as the .22 LR rimfire round goes, it's the worst possible choice for personal defense. Go to the Federal Cartidge Company and please show me the .22 LR load that is recommended for personal defense. There are none. They are only recomended for varmints and target shooting. There is a reason for that. Actually several.

As a matter of physics, it's the energy of a projectile that damages, disrupts, and kills. Some bullets are better constructed for a particular purpose and, thus, distribute the energy on impact in a more deadly manner. However, assuming you have an appropriate bullet type, it's the energy that disrupts the recipient of the projectile. .40 S&W or .45 ACP = upwards of 500 fpe in certain loads. The .22 = about 115 fpe.
Another relevant concept is that the likelihood of KILLING an animal is proportional to the square of the times you shoot it. Thus, if you shoot a person 5 times with a .22, you are 25 times more likely to kill him than if you merely shot him once. You are also probably more likely to kill someone by shooting him 3-5 times with a .22 than you are by shooting him once with a .40, but it will probably take a while and won't impede his ability to continue aggresive conduct nearly as much as a single shot from a .40 or .45. This is because, while the five .22s are more likely to strike a vital artery in the areas where they create a permanent cavity, the temporary cavities are much, much smaller than those created by real personal defense loads. Thus, you can shoot some aggressor five times with a .22 and he likely will ultimately bleed to death, but won't shut down immediately. Someone hit with a 500 ft-lb bullet will be much more likey to experience immediate disruption due to both the permanent and temporary cavities created by the round. He will likely shut down immediately. That's why the 155 gr .40 produces "one shot stops" of a person shot in the torso 96% of the time and a .22 produces one stop shots about 32% of the time. Even some .380 loads get up to almost 70%. The .22 does not cause enough shock to reliably stop a human-sized target. I would say this failure is even more pronounced when dealing with a person on certain amphetamines or narcotics.
Of course, there's nothing wrong with shooting a threatening individual multiple times with a .40 or a .45, which really seals the deal.
Further, firing your handgun madly like a machine gun is not the way to win a gun fight. Shooting with a decent caliber and making every shot count is the way to go. Trust me, you won't feel the recoil of a 9mm, .40, or .45 when someone is shooting back at you. Not one bit.
Even if you want to attack someone Machine Gun Kelly style, you can get a Glock 35 with a that holds 18 rounds (17+1) in .40. If you want to less recoil, get a 9mm Glock 18 with a 31-round magazine.

Using a .22 for home defense is like bow hunting Grizzlies. It's great if you want a tough challlenge. But, if you want to make your like easier, go with a real caliber.

[RIC-H0]

Very Well Put!

I completely agree with all you have mentioned!!!

So lets go Bow hunting for Grizzlies or atleast a Black Bear! Soon!

Ric

[ROX]

ok, here's my deal. I have a shotgun, which I use mostly for hunting, but w/slug & 0000 shot works well for home defense (behind the locks and my 2 75# dogs).

What I'm looking for now, is a pistol, something I can carry w/me. I used to have Karr .40 cal w/3.5" barrel. Honestly, I hated it - too short barrel, plus a trigger/double-pull safety. I'm not too interested in home safety, with the dogs & shotgun. If I was, I've but a 15 round .22 w/hollow points - about a good as a home defense pistol as you can find (behind the shotgun).

What I need is a pistol (not revolver, hate 'em), with >6 round clip, with a real safety, with a >4" barrel, that can stop a bear/wolf/cougar/etc. I'll use it mostly for personal protection in my car, but want a single gun for both traveling protection + camping/outdoors. I was in Alaska a couple years ago and ended up 10' from a black bear. Everything worked out, but I have had a run-in w/the shotgun where my brother and I dumped 6 rounds of 4 shot into a small black bear while pheasant hunting near Yakima WA. I never want to be that freaked out again - I want a pistol I trust to take care of that for me. Pull it and shoot, no worries.

Without a bunch of BS about gun safety (I'm comfortable w/guns, been shooting them for 15 years), what's the best gun for my needs under $700? I don't mind used, don't need a laser sight, won't use it for target practice, can shoot quite well under pressure, and just need something with stopping power. Thanks.K, I read your post but I'm going to say it anyway. REVOLVER. No parts to get jammed up. .44 magnum (or .50). Get a nice one and you will like it. That is all. :)

[RIC-H0]

Yep Yep...Revolver is a no brainer. Point and shoot!

[Wisha Haddan H3]

That's a good idea, I've got a bunch of target shooting friends. I'll just borrow there's (done it before, but just for goofing around).

Won't get a Glock - too light. I light a heavy gun, the glocks feel a little too plasticy. Might just be me - haven't shot one before, but I've started looking and haven't found one I like.

don't know what any of that +p+jhp means, but my Karr kicked like a bish and I hated 2 shots in a row, I could never bring it back on target for the 2nd shot. What is a +jhp load?

Sorry for the late reply .. spent the weekend moving. JHP are jacketed hollow points. +P basically means higher pressure and yields higher velocity (for greater penetration). +P+ is an ultra-high pressure load.

It looks like you're on the right track toward picking a defensive pistol. You need a good size round (.40 or larger) in a pistol you're comfortable with (fits in your hand, easy to unsafe, fits your shooting style), with a recoil that gives you accurate follow-up shots.

I'm a big believer in double-taps. Your first shot has to be on target, but if you can re-acquire and fire again, you're more likely to bring down your assailant ... 2 or 4 legged.

As for hardball v hollow-point ammo, hollow-points are great for the amount of damage they can do once inside you. But they can shatter on bones, whereas hardball has a better chance of breaking the bone (or penetrating the skull) and doing it. Soft points in some ways are the best of both worlds. They will spread out for more damage on impact, but don't shatter or split easily when they hit bone.

I love my semi-autos, but you really should test-fire a few revolvers. They don't jam, there's no safety to forget, and they're very accurate with good recoil control. 357s are cool, cause you can practice with the cheaper .38 special round, but you can carry your higher-powered .357s for defense. As for bullet capacity ... I've been told that if you can't solve your problem with 6 rounds, you're dead anyway.

[Big Z]

Further, firing your handgun madly like a machine gun is not the way to win a gun fight. Shooting with a decent caliber and making every shot count is the way to go. Trust me, you won't feel the recoil of a 9mm, .40, or .45 when someone is shooting back at you. Not one bit.


X2! The most Critical---Or Terminal!---statement yet! ;)

As a defensive weapon, the wheel gun, (DBL Action) can't be beat..imo---And, As far as This topic anyway! :)

Firing your handgun madly like a machine gun

lol, Yer out of bullets pilgrim! gotta use them Wisely!

Since the Leaf lickers, southern implants, enviros, and, animal groups (terrorists) have taken over and changed....Well, just about everything! :rolleyes: There's an OVER population of Mtn. Lions And Bears here---The same one are now complaining of Being stalked, attacked, mauled, and killed, since the Do Gooders DID their Thing!

This cat we figured close to 150#---And WILL flat FK you up!, if your the Unlucky recipient! I was tracking a cat one time, Only to discover---an hour later--I was the one Being Tracked!

What I'm getting at is the Other Critters to be aware of--What's In Your Neck Of The Woods!?? :eek: Kinda thing!----I Hate Badgers! They Scare The $hit out of Me!---And the First 44 round REALLY PISSES Them Off!!--Mtn. Lion is next, SWIFT & SILENT!--Damn good looking Cat Tho!--Snakes!..Next to Badgers!.......Snakes!....I Hate Snakes!--They Get TWO!....More if I shiver!..I ALWAYS, Shiver!--Carry Extra Snake Loads!--Shiver, Damn!--And almost last on my Vermin aware List, is the Three Legged One! (Two Leggers are less Likely to attack!) And controlled Knock Down Power Is A MUST!......Then I Might Worry About BEARS! Happy Camping!

[Big Z]

Cat 2

[Big Z]

Camping/Fishing Gear, and When the bullets are gone!??...Need Fire Wood!...Or Bear Steak! ( cuz you had to take it down with your knife, Due to Killing to many Snakes And Badgers! that ya run out!)....Or, whatever! Ya Just Gotta Have a GOOD Knife, Or Three! :cool:

[Big Z]

I went Bird Hunting ONE TIME!......................But They Didn't want me to go again! :confused: I Just Don't Get It! :(

[PARAGON]

When the bullets are gone!??...Need Fire Wood!...Or Bear Steak! ( cuz you had to take it down with your knife, Due to Killing to many Snakes And Badgers! that ya run out!)....Or, whatever! Ya Just Gotta Have a GOOD Knife, Or Three! :cool:surprised not to see a K-bar there;)

We have cat tracks like that, of the black variety. But very very few. If you see one in your lifetime here, it's something. Just finding tracks is rare. But hearing one "scream" at night is something you'll not likely forget.

[The Juice]

Paragon,

Your thoughts on hunting knives? Any suggestions?:D

[Big Z]

surprised not to see a K-bar there

Keep the K-Bar with.....Other Gear!:D

[PARAGON]

Roger that

[GeorgeSSSS]

Guys: Sorry for being a dunce. How do I insert a picture into my post in this new website? :confused:

[PARAGON]

Guys: Sorry for being a dunce. How do I insert a picture into my post in this new website? :confused:click on "manage attachments"

wait..... click on the to A/A 's in the upper right of the reply screen and make sure you are in the "advanced mode" and then scroll below the "submit reply" button and click on the "manage attachments" button.

I think you'll get it from there.

[GeorgeSSSS]

Thanks Paragon.
Now that I'm empowered, YOU BUNCH OF WUSSIES.

THIS IS WHAT I CALL REAL FIREPOWER.

I AIN'T 'FRAID 'O NO STINKIN BEAR.

Best regards,

George SSSS

[westhillsat]

My .44 Magnum is too big and heavy to carry around at the cabin. Had five bears roaming around the cabin 2 years ago.
Last summer the next door neighbor had a bear jump on the deck while she was reading on the deck.

I looked at one of these tonight, looked good.

25714

Model: 500
Caliber: .500
Capacity: 5 Rounds
Barrel Length: 4"
Weight Empty: 56 oz

[RIC-H0]

Nice gun, but I'd personally fear the recoil than the bear I'm shooting, especially with a 4" barrel!:eek:

[westhillsat]

Hopefully, the bear spray will do its job first :o

And we're only three lots away from the resort on the lake, but still in the woods.
About three miles from the west entrance to Glacier Park.

Last year in the fall, while we were blowing the water out of the plumbing in the cabin - at night in the dark, something was tipping over trash cans two cabins away :eek:
Went and strapped on the .44, man that was heavy...

[Big Z]

We have cat tracks like that, of the black variety. But very very few. If you see one in your lifetime here, it's something. Just finding tracks is rare. But hearing one "scream" at night is something you'll not likely forget.

LOL, the tracks above were in my front yard!..He was Hunting! And cats were the menu, (although I'm sure he wouldn't have turned down a tasty pooch, or kid!) as there are to many strays around--Idiot neighbors were turned in for abuse, (as seen on TV stuff!) luved all couple dozen of them critters!...A$$ Holes!----Anyway, there just getting thick as ticks around here! (cats Too)---I bet they have 5 or 6 rug rats a couple houses down! :eek: ---Can't blame the cats! Call-ee-FOR-nya meat is plentiful! ;)

[DRTYFN]

Thanks Paragon.
Now that I'm empowered, YOU BUNCH OF WUSSIES.

THIS IS WHAT I CALL REAL FIREPOWER.

I AIN'T 'FRAID 'O NO STINKIN BEAR.

Best regards,

George SSSS

Now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout!!!!!(Ebonics. Like it?:D)
Great picture!

[Big Z]

My .44 Magnum is too big and heavy to carry around at the cabin. Had five bears roaming around the cabin 2 years ago.
Last summer the next door neighbor had a bear jump on the deck while she was reading on the deck.

I looked at one of these tonight, looked good.

25714

Model: 500
Caliber: .500
Capacity: 5 Rounds
Barrel Length: 4"
Weight Empty: 56 oz

Getting one of these VERY SOON! :cool: Hope the shipment is in!...out the last time in store. :(

This IS, your BEST BEAR STOPPER To Date!--STOCK!--Will comment on the recoil soon!

Been checking out some Hunts in Texas. Would be great to Spit A Pig! while there! Yam! Yam!---And a good test for the 500! :D

[GeorgeSSSS]

Getting one of these VERY SOON! :cool: Hope the shipment is in!...out the last time in store. :(

This IS, your BEST BEAR STOPPER To Date!--STOCK!--Will comment on the recoil soon!

Been checking out some Hunts in Texas. Would be great to Spit A Pig! while there! Yam! Yam!---And a good test for the 500! :D

Big Z: I'm particularly interested in the effect of the recoil compensator. Be sure to give us some focus on that when you write your report.

Thanks,

George SSSS

[Big Z]

It has taken the BIG 6 already!, will Knock a bison off it's hooves, and has more than enough power to Hit a Bear in the Head and travel completely through it! @ 30 Yds! :eek: The 8" barrel is suppose to be a True 200 Yd Hunter!..I Opted for the Compact 4" Self defense model! :D

Another Big Z Custom in the Makin!..Laser Grip, NiteSights, and Some Special, Loads!..Snake Dens!...I need to Find Snake DEN!...j/k

I'm a goin to Alaska! Fishing! And well armed! ;)

Reality Check!...talking about it is one thing, having to do is another!

Absolutely! defend yourself if you have to! just Bear in mind a few things (intended)....1.) PAPER WORK! if you have to shoot one, (they will know if it self defense!) there will be PLENTY OF IT!......2.) 25 Yards of Mean Bear charging, PLUG UM! You CAN'T out Run!---Last resort option is to shoot, be sure you have to!....VERY Doubtfull!....Making a bunch of noise is best, chucking rock, or cracking one into a tree will 99% of the time send a bear running!

Know the Difference between Griz And Black Bear??



Griz Will Just KILL YA! A Black Bear Likes to Shread and eat a little! ;)

[Big Z]

Compare some rounds

[Big Z]

compare 2

[Big Z]

Forgot the Venerable 22 And 22Mag! :D

[PARAGON]

is that the .500 next to the .223? sheesh

[Big Z]

is that the .500 next to the .223? sheesh

lol Yep All 440Gr! Waaa Haa!

[MovinH2]

Glock all the way. I have a M-17 that is kept under the bed.;)

[Big Z]

Big Z: I'm particularly interested in the effect of the recoil compensator. Be sure to give us some focus on that when you write your report.

Thanks,

George SSSS

Won't have to much for a while. The gun comes with 2 compensators.. one for Hollow Points...One for the rest.

Hear say part--from an owner/shooter/reloader :D --If you've shot 44 mag loads, the barrel raises and pulls to the left, (righty) TRUE!

The 500 has No Pull, and a rise of 6" +/-! Impressive! Getting 3" groups @ 30Yrds, (still working with loads) we'll see! And reloading is about $0.18 a round Vs. $1.10 Plus X Box of 20

More later!

[PARAGON]

so, can you feel the muzzle blast:eek: :D

[Connie_Chung]

Guns kill people. This is ridiculous.

[PARAGON]

Guns kill people. This is ridiculous.I know.... cool, isn't it.

[Connie_Chung]

I know.... cool, isn't it.

I should kill you for your smart alec remarks. :mad:

[westhillsat]

Won't have to much for a while. The gun comes with 2 compensators.. one for Hollow Points...One for the rest.

Hear say part--from an owner/shooter/reloader :D --If you've shot 44 mag loads, the barrel raises and pulls to the left, (righty) TRUE!

The 500 has No Pull, and a rise of 6" +/-! Impressive! Getting 3" groups @ 30Yrds, (still working with loads) we'll see! And reloading is about $0.18 a round Vs. $1.10 Plus X Box of 20

More later!

Very cool :cool:

[Big Z]

Guns kill people. This is ridiculous.

GUNS Don't Kill People! :rolleyes: PEOPLE Kill People!

Saying Guns Kill People Is Like Saying Pencils are Responsible for Bad Spelling! :rolleyes:

[Big Z]

Hopefully, the bear spray will do its job first :o

And we're only three lots away from the resort on the lake, but still in the woods.
About three miles from the west entrance to Glacier Park.

Last year in the fall, while we were blowing the water out of the plumbing in the cabin - at night in the dark, something was tipping over trash cans two cabins away :eek:
Went and strapped on the .44, man that was heavy...

Get yourself a couple Marine "Compressed Air" Horns--Big Can--Very loud--Very annoying!..dogs are good--long leash, and barkers. Probably already know, bears get into habits! easy pickings--trash cans=Bear lunch boxs! Hey Bo Boo!, Coolers, Tents, Pic-a-nic baskets.....Anyway, (should make it a joint effort with others around there!) you can make them LEAVE AND NOT Want To COME BACK!-- With a little training :D . The Jist of it.. SCARE the $hit out of them! :) , Chase As Far As Possible, Blasting the Horns, Flashing Lights, Dogs Barking, Just give them a good Hazing @ ANY/EVERY event...It will only take a few times!...Pm me if you need to know any more, or How.

[CO Hummer]

GUN Don't Kill People! :rolleyes: PEOPLE Kill People!

Saying Guns Kill People Is Like Saying Pencils are Responsible for Bad Spelling! :rolleyes:

haha! you edited that post because you had a spelling error, didn't you.

[westhillsat]

Like the air horn idea :)

Had a yellow lab, two years ago at night at the cabin while we were out letting him take care of business, he hunkered down and gave out one of those primal gutteral growls - made the hair stand up on my neck. That was the summer the five bears were around and before we knew they were around.

He was the opposite of a real lab. Didn't like water and started growling at the neighbors - acted more like he was a german shepard guard dog.
Had to have the vet find him a home way out in the country.

Have a beagle now, better for the son and she has that beagle bark/baying sound :)

Will add the air horn to the bear spray arsenal.

But still liking the S&W 500 :D

[Big Z]

haha! you edited that post because you had a spelling error, didn't you.

It's the KeyBoards Fault! :eek: :D Bad Keyboard!

[MarineHawk]

Glock all the way. I have a M-17 that is kept under the bed.;)

You're the first other person I know of with an M-17. I bought mine barely-used. I love the concept of the gun, but I have significant jamming/extraction issues when I shoot it. I don't know if it is a design flaw or something else. Do you have any problems like that?

[PARAGON]

You're the first other person I know of with an M-17. I bought mine barely-used. I love the concept of the gun, but I have significant jamming/extraction issues when I shoot it. I don't know if it is a design flaw or something else. Do you have any problems like that?Ummm..... isn't that just a standard G17

[Big Z]

Like the air horn idea :)

Had a yellow lab, two years ago at night at the cabin while we were out letting him take care of business, he hunkered down and gave out one of those primal gutteral growls - made the hair stand up on my neck. That was the summer the five bears were around and before we knew they were around.

He was the opposite of a real lab. Didn't like water and started growling at the neighbors - acted more like he was a german shepard guard dog.
Had to have the vet find him a home way out in the country.

Have a beagle now, better for the son and she has that beagle bark/baying sound

Will add the air horn to the bear spray arsenal.

But still liking the S&W 500 :D

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ga_handguns/grab_071405/

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/community/inthefield/fieldguides/guidebooks-story-1.jsp;jsessionid=BYUBFIYTQXRTTTQSNOHCCO4OCJVZCIWE? hierarchyId=10201&contentId=vanzwoll_sw500&title=S%26W's+Hot+New+.500+Magnum&_requestid=1848&_requestid=20178

http://www.hunting-fishing-gear.com/review-display/474.html

http://www.john-ross.net/s&wsuccess.htm

This will get ya to the store!, If You like the BIG Bore! :D

Just another shooters statement!

Ballistic Supply http://www.ballisticsupply.net/ (http://www.ballisticsupply.net/) makes high quality ammo at a fair price. They specialize in 500 S&W. They have at least 8 different loads for it. They range from a 350gr plated, FN bullet @ 800fps, they call their "defense load" to their 700gr hard cast @ 1200fps. The defense load was developed at the request of several indoor range owners who sold 500s in their shop and wanted customers to be able to shoot them without knocking down the walls of their range. Ballistic Supply will also load the defense load with 370gr and 440gr, at your request. The 350gr version allowed me to actually fire my 4" 500 S&W double action and hit tin cans, reliably, at 25 yards. If I sound like a commercial for them, it's because they worked to get some ammo to me, at short notice, when I left for Alaska last fall. Here's a couple of pictures of their big boys. The top pic is their 700gr and the bottom is the 535gr.
http://tinyurl.com/ooh8x
http://tinyurl.com/qpwtp

[MarineHawk]

Ummm..... isn't that just a standard G17

On second thought, I assume that's what he is referring to. When I first saw "M-17," I thought he was referring to a 2nd gun - one of these:

[Big Z]

The more I read about this Hand Cannon, the more I see it has in common with the H2!! :cool:

It went from design to production is a year

Setting the STOCK Bar, Very High!-- LIKE NOTHING ELSE! :D , Dusting The competition!

IT'S To BIG!....IT'S To MUCH!...IT COSTS TO MUCH TO FILL! (Bullet Guzzler!)...Ridiculed because, NOT EVERYONE CAN HAVE OR HANDLE.. THE..BIG!..METAL! :D

You shouldn't be allowed to Have Or Buy That Thing, because you will never use it for it's INTENDED PURPOSE!

Huffington has another agenda! Claiming Waste! Waste!...Their gonna use up all the Lead! That's just Excessive! They use Slave MINORS, (working under the worst possible conditions!) to mine the LEAD, and fill the Cylinders of those BIG BULLET GUZZLERS!...And send the proceeds to terror groups! :eek: BIG BRUTES!

It's Just NOT RIGHT!---That You Spend YOUR Money! ---And Have THINGS!-- That NOT EVERYONE ELSE CAN!....

It's Made In The USA!

Raving Experts!---ON PLATFORMS!--Ridiculing--Generating Product Hate--REVIEWING!--SPECULATING--Eagerly waiting To Embelishing ANY negitive!------?..With Absolutly ZERO!--HANDS ON EXPERIENCE!---Trying To Control the Weak!...and Causing $hit!

I'd Almost nominate the 500, as the Official Hummer Handgun! Both Have a LOT in common--IMHO! ;)



Any Spelling Errors Are the FAULT Of The KeyBoard!--I Bear No Responsibility........

[Big Z]

Big Z: I'm particularly interested in the effect of the recoil compensator. Be sure to give us some focus on that when you write your report.

Thanks,

George SSSS

As SOON as My Hand Heals UP! :eek: I'm field testing!----Rock Chucks---Sage Rats---Bugs Bunny (Gallon jug size, and better!)--Kill Da Wabit!--jackalope-- then, into the Canyon of Lions!---Might get one to come out and play! J/K. (yes taking shotguns and friends when vermit hunting...Well, shotgun anyway!)----Since I need to Harvest some trees--Can't think of a better time to test--What size tree it will go through!--What size I can Fell with 5 rounds----Boulder Check (in case I need to do a little Trail Trimming! Or/and more likely, Destroy such offending Carnage Causing Protrusion :rolleyes: )....3" concrete pads stacked--3,6,9"?....Watermellons.... Waaa Ha!:D Just hope the N double don't make a fuss!....Must find NOW, and Just hit me!..BIG!!--- Cinder Boulders!-----F'N A!!



Naaaa! I don't like the BIG BORES, and BOOMS!--But, Here's The 1" Bore!!---favorite loads--1/2 rolls! any denomination! W/Quarters Being the Bad BOYS of the bunch! Just Luv them Coin Machines!---Give Um Hell George!---Here Comes some ROCK SALT!:D ----Fourth Of July IS A BLAST!!....6 Regulars, Only 3 BIG BORES!--But Still, BIG BOOMS! Haaaa Haaa Haa Ha!

On the SERIOUS side Now, This stuff is for Experienced shooters, and I sure don't recommend ANYONE jump into the BIG bores, unless a far amount of 44Mag time is in your arms! Would hate to hear of Broken Thumbs, Wrists, arms, faces,.........Or Anything Else! :eek: Safety First!

[westhillsat]

I ended up getting one of these tonight. A .45 ACP XD made by Springfield Armory.

25928


I got one of these since I already have a .357 and a .44 both S&W.

[GeorgeSSSS]

That is definitely a stopper.

[Big Z]

I ended up getting one of these tonight. A .45 ACP XD made by Springfield Armory.

25928


I got one of these since I already have a .357 and a .44 both S&W.

Nice piece!...Ya get the 4 or 5 inch?:cool:

[ROX]

Pleaze! Let this thread DIE! before my husband sees it and has to buy yet another weapon of mass construction!:mad:

[westhillsat]

I got the 4 inch. :D

Husband needs another weapon, please show thread to him thanks :D :D :D

[Big Z]

Pleaze! Let this thread DIE! before my husband sees it and has to buy yet another weapon of mass construction!:mad:

Have Trent Give me a call! You can count on me!-- to help talk him out of a BIG Magnum! :D

[Andy C]

As SOON as My Hand Heals UP! :eek: I'm field testing!----Rock Chucks---Sage Rats---Bugs Bunny (Gallon jug size, and better!)--Kill Da Wabit!--jackalope-- then, into the Canyon of Lions!---Might get one to come out and play! J/K. (yes taking shotguns and friends when vermit hunting...Well, shotgun anyway!)----Since I need to Harvest some trees--Can't think of a better time to test--What size tree it will go through!--What size I can Fell with 5 rounds----Boulder Check (in case I need to do a little Trail Trimming! Or/and more likely, Destroy such offending Carnage Causing Protrusion :rolleyes: )....3" concrete pads stacked--3,6,9"?....Watermellons.... Waaa Ha!:D Just hope the N double don't make a fuss!....Must find NOW, and Just hit me!..BIG!!--- Cinder Boulders!-----F'N A!!



Naaaa! I don't like the BIG BORES, and BOOMS!--But, Here's The 1" Bore!!---favorite loads--1/2 rolls! any denomination! W/Quarters Being the Bad BOYS of the bunch! Just Luv them Coin Machines!---Give Um Hell George!---Here Comes some ROCK SALT! ----Fourth Of July IS A BLAST!!....6 Regulars, Only 3 BIG BORES!--But Still, BIG BOOMS! Haaaa Haaa Haa Ha!

On the SERIOUS side Now, This stuff is for Experienced shooters, and I sure don't recommend ANYONE jump into the BIG bores, unless a far amount of 44Mag time is in your arms! Would hate to hear of Broken Thumbs, Wrists, arms, faces,.........Or Anything Else! :eek: Safety First!

You are Ted Nugent aren't you - go on admit it.:eek:

[Big Z]

I got the 4 inch. :D

Husband needs another weapon, please show thread to him thanks :D :D


roflmao!, Now that's funny! I Don't care who ya are! :D Lord Forgive Her and Be with the Pigmies in......! :-)

Never Had that Problem! Wife in Very concerned when it comes to My Weapons, and Safety! And Never Fails to remind ME! With.......Now, Damn-it! YOU BE CAREFUL WITH THAT THING!! :D

[Big Z]

Rox! It was almost safe! Trent!...You are veeerrryyy sleepy.... your eyelids are soooo very heavy.... You will make the drive!!! When I count to 3 you will feel refreshed and ready to plan your trip---To SportsMan WareHouse! Magnum...Magnum.....Magn...........

1..... 2..... 3





WRONG!!!! MAGNUM!! :D

[Big Z]

22LR....44Mag......500Mag.....Have A Nice Day! :D

[ETD]

Forgot the Venerable 22 And 22Mag! :D
Sorry don't know much about hand guns. Would you please label the bullets?
I just never got into target shooting with handguns @ stationary targets. Was boring. I enjoy shooting skeets and clays. I enjoy upland hunting but not deer, turkey, or duck- again, too much waiting around to shoot at something stationary. Too ADHD, I guessed:o .

Questions for Eldave. What makes you think that you can get a shot on target at a mountain lion that has been stalking you as you are backpacking about, enjoying nature? A bear can run at what, 10-12 mph? I supposed that a Grizzly will give you a moment to get a shot off as it is trying to warn you off but a hungry black bear looking for food? What about taking the time to learn about bear behavior, mating season, roaming habitat in order to avoid running into them? Not telling, just asking out of "ignorance".

As for home defense and knife, as Crocodile dundee said "that's not a knife, this is a knife".:D

[PARAGON]

Sorry don't know much about hand guns. Would you please label the bullets?
I just never got into target shooting with handguns @ stationary targets. Was boring. I enjoy shooting skeets and clays. I enjoy upland hunting but not deer, turkey, or duck- again, too much waiting around to shoot at something stationary. Too ADHD, I guessed:o .

Questions for Eldave. What makes you think that you can get a shot on target at a mountain lion that has been stalking you as you are backpacking about, enjoying nature? A bear can run at what, 10-12 mph? I supposed that a Grizzly will give you a moment to get a shot off as it is trying to warn you off but a hungry black bear looking for food? What about taking the time to learn about bear behavior, mating season, roaming habitat in order to avoid running into them? Not telling, just asking out of "ignorance".

As for home defense and knife, as Crocodile dundee said "that's not a knife, this is a knife".:Dthat's not the wakizashi I saw you with last;)

[Big Z]

Sorry don't know much about hand guns. Would you please label the bullets?

I really thought someone would of taken a stab at the line! By Now! :confused:

Let's see! From Left to right...:confused: :D

12Guage"OO" Buck--500Magnum--45acp--44Mag--40 S&W--357Mag--38Spl--9mm Lugar--380--22Mag--22LR

[westhillsat]

My 45 acp looks so small next to alot of those cartridges :(

Glad I have a 44, a couple of 357's and a 38 for good measure. ;)

[evldave]

Questions for Eldave. What makes you think that you can get a shot on target at a mountain lion that has been stalking you as you are backpacking about, enjoying nature? A bear can run at what, 10-12 mph? I supposed that a Grizzly will give you a moment to get a shot off as it is trying to warn you off but a hungry black bear looking for food? What about taking the time to learn about bear behavior, mating season, roaming habitat in order to avoid running into them? Not telling, just asking out of "ignorance".

I don't know if I'll be able to guard against mountain lions. Only if I'm lucky to see them first (that's what dogs are for, and they have growled for no reason in the woods, mountain lion or not, I'll rely on them for early warning).

Bears can run 30+ mph. But typicaly bear behavior is to pose/posture, rear up, growl, then fake charge, then full charge. Unless you come upon them while feeding, and you are being an idiot by not making noise, you will have enough time to be ready.

I'd say I'm very familiar with bear territory (weeklong bike trip, separate backpacking trip in Alaska, backpacking for 6 weeks in Montana, backpacking through Glacier & Yellowstone, North Cascades, plus a run-in live w/a black bear while pheasant hunting near Yakima, WA). I rarely go out in bear country w/out sounds, whistling, dogs, etc. My preference is to avoid contact at all costs, but when it does happen, I don't want to have to worry about it. I shouldn't be stupid enough to come up on a bear feeding, since hopefully I'll have done everything to not put myself in that situation.

[dеiтайожни]

Careful evldave, you'll put an eye out with a gun.

[evldave]

Careful evldave, you'll put an eye out with a gun.

When we were kids growing up, we used to play poor man's paintball. We'd use pellet/BB guns and shoot at each other. Sometimes we'd remember to wear goggles. My buddy got shot in the eye w/a BB, swelled shut, real bad damage, but they were able to get the BB out - now he can barely see out of that eye. Parent's shut us down after that...:mad:

[ETD]

that's not the wakizashi I saw you with last;)

Nah, that was a bushmaster. It's a good way to carry a compass ;)

Big Z: Ok, now I get it. The magnums are the tall thin ones. Now are you going to make me go back and read the ballistic treatise or can you tell me again why the magnums are more powerful? Is it because they have more grains? Or is it the cap that is special?

[Big Z]

Big Z: Ok, now I get it. The magnums are the tall thin ones. Now are you going to make me go back and read the ballistic treatise or can you tell me again why the magnums are more powerful? Is it because they have more grains? Or is it the cap that is special?


This is the Simple Answer!--This pic!----And In the following pic, Just think what the MAGNUM LOAD Would do to you Vs. The Regular LOAD! :D

[Big Z]

The Difference!----BIG!......And MAGNUM!

[PARAGON]

While magnum is not always universal, it generally is used to signify that it's a certain caliber ammo, but with a "magnum charge" or more grains of powder. So, it's faster and has more energy.

.22 vs. .22MAG

.357 vs. .357Mag

.44 vs. .44Mag

.45 vs. 45 Win Mag

.300 Savage vs. .300 Win Mag vs. .300 Wby Mag

[ETD]

Sorry, to be a wee bit slow, but...
Big Z, in your photo's, the magnums were NOT "bigger" but longer and all but the .22 had the metallic cap so that to a novice, those were the differences NOT the overwhelming size difference as in your photo's of the drinking containers. Or was that because of the loss of perspective in the photo's of the bullets and there IS really that much difference in size.
Paragon, that's what I was wondering. That is, the difference in projectile effectiveness has to do with the fact that there is that much more explosive material in the magnum bullets and not that they are longer and capped with some other metal (i.e. they needed to be longer to be able to hold more explosive force).
BTW, I figured that if shape was of primary importance, wouldn't bullets still be spherical? Doesn't a sphere going forward in air have the least drag coefficient or is my physics too rusty?

[PARAGON]

Sorry, to be a wee bit slow, but...
Big Z, in your photo's, the magnums were NOT "bigger" but longer and all but the .22 had the metallic cap so that to a novice, those were the differences NOT the overwhelming size difference as in your photo's of the drinking containers. Or was that because of the loss of perspective in the photo's of the bullets and there IS really that much difference in size.
Paragon, that's what I was wondering. That is, the difference in projectile effectiveness has to do with the fact that there is that much more explosive material in the magnum bullets and not that they are longer and capped with some other metal (i.e. they needed to be longer to be able to hold more explosive force).
BTW, I figured that if shape was of primary importance, wouldn't bullets still be spherical? Doesn't a sphere going forward in air have the least drag coefficient or is my physics too rusty?The "bullet" itself really has nothing to do with it being a magnum or not. Magnum labeling comes from the powder charge, generally.

The shape, design, make-up, etc. of the bullet is something completely different and refers to it's caliber size (.22 or .38 for instance) and then the various ways the bullet itself is designed. Soft Point, Full Metal Jacket, Hollow Point, Wadcutter, etc. Then you get into more intricacies such as ballistic tip sierra boattail, etc etc. All of that refers just to the bullet.

Cartridges are labeled various things by the manufacturers and magnum was just something they came up with for a specific caliber "bullet" that has a higher powder charge (requires more space behind the bullet, hence the longer casing) to be more powerful.

So, Big Z's point was that there's more punch in a magnum due to the gunpowder load.

[PARAGON]

In magnum centerfire rifles, the casing is generally longer AND "fatter" than their non-magnum counterparts.

It's a design element. In theory, one could design a "magnum" cartridge that was the same height as it's standard counterpart, but with a fatter casing and then neck down the top to fit the caliber. That's just not done in handgun applications.

I think that was what you were refering to.

[MarineHawk]

Sorry, to be a wee bit slow, but...
Big Z, in your photo's, the magnums were NOT "bigger" but longer and all but the .22 had the metallic cap so that to a novice, those were the differences NOT the overwhelming size difference as in your photo's of the drinking containers. Or was that because of the loss of perspective in the photo's of the bullets and there IS really that much difference in size.
Paragon, that's what I was wondering. That is, the difference in projectile effectiveness has to do with the fact that there is that much more explosive material in the magnum bullets and not that they are longer and capped with some other metal (i.e. they needed to be longer to be able to hold more explosive force).
BTW, I figured that if shape was of primary importance, wouldn't bullets still be spherical? Doesn't a sphere going forward in air have the least drag coefficient or is my physics too rusty?

Your physics is a bit rusty. A long pointy projectile with a tapered base tends to have the lowest drag (balistic coefficient). Otherwise, spherical airplanes would be a lot more common. Higher density also yields a higher ballistic coeficient. Strictly speaking, the bullet has no explosive material. The cartridge does. The cartrige essentially consists of the casing, the bullet, the primer, and the gunpowder inside the casing. The bullet is the (generally lead covered by a thin copper jacket) metal thingy that goes flying through and out of the barrel at a fairly high velocity. The term "Magnum" is just a name given to some fairly hot cartridges. For example, a .44 Magnum cartridge holds a lot more charge than a .44 S&W Special. A typical 180 grain .44 Special flies out of the muzzle at about 1,000 fps; a 180 grain .44 Magnum comes out at 1,610 fps. And remember, it's the energy, which is proportional to the square of the velocity, that hurts, stops, and kills something. Thus, the 180 gr .44 Magnum delivers 1,036 ft-lbs of energy, while the 180 gr .44 Special delivers only 400 fpe. Similarly, a 125 gr .38 special puts out about 250 fpe, while the .357 Mag. (same caliber) puts out 583 fpe.
That being said, a "non-magnum" Cor-Bon 135 gr .40 S&W semi-auto round puts out 526 fpe and you can stuff anywhere from 11 to 18 of them in various semi-auto pistols as opposed to the six .357 "Magnums" you can load in a revolver.
IMHO, if I was going to encounter anything that weighed more than 400 lbs, I would want a revolver loaded with at least a .44 Mag. If I was going to encounter any carnivorous mammal wieghing more than 1,000 lbs (and I couldn't/didn't want to bring a rifle), I'd probably want to move up to something more powerfull, like a .454 Casull, a .480 Ruger, one of the .50 cal magnums, etc... And, on the smaller side, I'd like to have my .44 Ruger Redhawk when facing a Black Bear, but when backpacking in the Colorado Wilderness Areas I feel perfectly prepared carrying one of my much lighter .40 S&W handguns as a Black Bear repellant.

[DennisAJC]

All this talk about shooting bears.

Has anyone considered that maybe the bear just wants a hug and a little understanding?

[PARAGON]

All this talk about shooting bears.

Has anyone considered that maybe the bear just wants a hug and a little understanding?Is that where bear hug came from?

[DennisAJC]

Is that where bear hug came from?

Yup.

Here's the guy that made the word "Bear Hug" famous. He doesn't hug bears anymore though.:D :D :D

[Groundpounder]

For a good serviceable, defense, home protection, on and off duty I use a SIG SAUER. The department issued the double stack (12 rounds) SIG 226 in a .40 cal. I carry a single stack (8 rounds) SIG 239 off duty with a .357-Sig round. The Texas highway patrol uses the SIG SAUER with the .357-Sig. The .357-SIG will penetrate a windhield with no problem.
As for the safety, the SIG SAUER has a de-cocker. During transition to "autoloaders" years ago my partner had a Smith & Wesson. During the problem/clearing class i kept messing him up by putting it on "safe". It took to long to find the problem and correct it. In my business I do not have the time. I went with SIG SAUER's. Slightly heavy first pull, to make sure you want to, and a short second or more. If no more threat, then just drop the hammer with the de-cocker and the SIG SAUER is ready to go again if something pops up.
Do not forget night sights!!!!!:cool:

John
Dallas
UTPD

[Big Z]

Big Z: Ok, now I get it. The magnums are the tall thin ones. Now are you going to make me go back and read the ballistic treatise or can you tell me again why the magnums are more powerful? Is it because they have more grains? Or is it the cap that is special?

First off, I REALLY thought you were Yankin My Chain! lol Sorry! :D :o With this one!

Anyway MarineHawk & Paragon have answered your Question Very well--In a VERY small space--On a subject that can take months to learn and Years to Master!--HandLoading!....So, before you start pumping out bullets, and getting brain fry from ALL the Variables!, On Making the PERFECT Load, (For every Caliber, each gun, for Different application, for..DON'T GET ME STARTED!)----Learning to shoot needs happen first.:)

I will suggest though , If You----or anyone with limited or No knowledge of guns, hunting, or use----are planning on getting a hand gun----or ANY! gun for that matter--Sport, hunting, Defense, or collecting--TAKE A GUN COURSE!!!....GO TO RANGES AND EVENTS! (You'll get Loads of Knowledge, and EXPERIENCE!)----WARNING Though!: The Sport Can Get As Bad As---GOLD FEVER!--- If your Not Carfull! :D Be SAFE...And Master Your Sport!

Here IS the EASY WAY!!---Buy a T/C Contender, first barrel-22LR or 22Mag--shoot 1000 rounds---get another Barrel-suggest 38spl/357Mag---shoot 500 rounds---Another Barrel--40 Smith, 45, 44mag, 30-30, 223, 12Guage..............Just about any caliber.....Practice! Practice!, Practice!---MORE BULLETS!.....KEEP YOUR BRASS!...Ya might get the Fever!

..Any Spelling Errors are the fault fo the Key Board!..

These are examples of Different Bullet Types, BIG Of course! The first 5 (left to right) are the 500 Magnum--each load for a different purpose.

PTHP= Platinum Tip Hollow Point 400Gr
JSP = Jacked Soft Point 400Gr
RNFP= Round Nose Flat Point 330Gr---Lead
CAST Bullet 375Gr
CAST Bullet 440Gr

The Rest Are,

JHP= Jacketed Hollow Point
FMJ= Full Metal Jacket or Ball
FJHP= Full Jacket Hollow Point
FMJFP= ???

This Should give you a better understanding of Handgun, Bullets!

[PARAGON]

I think I've been keeping up with this thread.

Did you just get the .500? Are you already loading that many different slugs for it? or are those store bought?

[Big Z]

As for the safety, the SIG SAUER has a de-cocker. During transition to "autoloaders" years ago my partner had a Smith & Wesson. During the problem/clearing class i kept messing him up by putting it on "safe". It took to long to find the problem and correct it. In my business I do not have the time. I went with SIG SAUER's. Slightly heavy first pull, to make sure you want to, and a short second or more. If no more threat, then just drop the hammer with the de-cocker and the SIG SAUER is ready to go again if something pops up.
Do not forget night sights!!!!!:cool:


I Agree 100%! :D Have the Hi-Cap Sig-Pro 40...It Was also, my first suggestion! (Great Minds And Experience! I guess! lol) Very good Balance All the way around!---A Quality Gun, and shooter!

[MarineHawk]

My fav (in .40; also has a decocker):

[PARAGON]

My personal carry is HK P2000sk LEM (no decocker), bobbed hammer. best of both worlds

[PARAGON]

That and a G22

[MarineHawk]

My personal carry is HK P2000sk LEM (no decocker), bobbed hammer. best of both worlds

I've heard great things about them, but have never shot one. How do you like the LEM trigger? The P2000 is also intriguing to me.

[Big Z]

I think I've been keeping up with this thread.

Did you just get the .500? Are you already loading that many different slugs for it? or are those store bought?


I'll Never Tell! :D ......Maybe!

Collecting some Brass, I can start Reloading in seconds, and Yes \, these are all store bought...Might like a couple of um! The Platinum Tip Hollow Points, (BLACK TALLONS!) Will most likely be my--Have A Nice Day Loads! :)

[MarineHawk]

That and a G22

Interesting. We both like Glock and H&K the best, but you have the little HK and the big Glock, while I have the little Glock (27) and the big HK (USP).

[Big Z]

Kill-Da-Wabbit!---Hunting Rounds!

[PARAGON]

I've heard great things about them, but have never shot one. How do you like the LEM trigger? The P2000 is also intriguing to me.I really liked the LEM as soon as I picked it up.

It's got a little travel on the first pull like a Glock, but I'm comfortable with that for a carry weapon. The pull is smooth and precise though as compared to the Glock and the reset is very very short so the second can almost be before it's finished with recoil.

I like it because it has the hammer feel but no fumbling with a safety and/or decocker plus if you snap on the the round you can pull the trigger again to hopefully fire the round before having to do a clearance drill.

[PARAGON]

Interesting. We both like Glock and H&K the best, but you have the little HK and the big Glock, while I have the little Glock (27) and the big HK (USP).Yeah, I never liked firing the 27. For me it was the typical small pocket gun that was hard to handle for 100 rounds.

The sk is pretty easy to shoot although I don't think it has quite as small a footprint as the 27.

I think my next handgun purchase will probably be a the regular P2000 also with the LEM. You can get one with the decocker if you want, I just like the LEM setup.

EDIT: next handgun purchase AFTER the springfield XD in .45

[Andy C]

I do like 357 - I took this shot yesterday - quite cool.:)

[Andy C]

Spooky - I just noticed that my 357th post on this forum was a pic that I took of a 357 - whooooooooo.:eek:

[PARAGON]

Spooky - I just noticed that my 357th post on this forum was a pic that I took of a 357 - whooooooooo.:eek:that's a cool pic...... just wonder what your 666th post will be?:o

[ETD]

Hey, thanks for the lessons y'all. Didn't mean to dumbdown the thread from eldave's original "what's best for shooting bears" thread. A couple of years ago, I did research handguns a bit. Shot ~ 3 Glocks, 1 HK, 1 Sigsauer all around 9mm maybe 30 rounds each. To my surprise, I did think that there were differences among them and that I liked the Sigsauer the most. But then I got into Upland hunting and sporting clays so never got back into stationary target shooting again. Maybe, now, I'll look back into it. (After I master golf and fly-fishing :D .)

[Big Z]

Hey, thanks for the lessons y'all. Didn't mean to dumbdown the thread from eldave's original "what's best for shooting bears" thread. A couple of years ago, I did research handguns a bit. Shot ~ 3 Glocks, 1 HK, 1 Sigsauer all around 9mm maybe 30 rounds each. To my surprise, I did think that there were differences among them and that I liked the Sigsauer the most. But then I got into Upland hunting and sporting clays so never got back into stationary target shooting again. Maybe, now, I'll look back into it. (After I master golf and fly-fishing :D .)

Maybe, now, I'll look back into it. (After I master golf and fly-fishing :D
Very Easy To Master, clearing throat, cough...Fly fishing!.....A couple of Dupont Spinners attached to that fly...And Grab a Net! Done! Mastered!


Hey, thanks for the lessons y'all. Didn't mean to dumbdown the thread from eldave's original "what's best for shooting bears" thread. A couple of years ago, I did research handguns a bit. Shot ~ 3 Glocks, 1 HK, 1 Sigsauer all around 9mm maybe 30 rounds each. To my surprise, I did think that there were differences among them and that I liked the Sigsauer the most.


There's was NO Dumbing down in the thread! It's ALL .....Good!:D Have A Little FUN, Learn A Little Bit, Get Down Tonite!.............You are veeerrryyy sleepy.... your eyelids are soooo very heavy.... You will make the drive!!! When I count to 3 you will feel refreshed and ready to plan your trip---To SportsMan WareHouse!......T/C Contender......38spl......12Ga Barrels...........

1..... 2..... 3

Ever try the Star Shoot?

I Kinda Like Fishin Also!......For BUBBA! :D

[f5fstop]

Hey, thanks for the lessons y'all. Didn't mean to dumbdown the thread from eldave's original "what's best for shooting bears" thread. A couple of years ago, I did research handguns a bit. Shot ~ 3 Glocks, 1 HK, 1 Sigsauer all around 9mm maybe 30 rounds each. To my surprise, I did think that there were differences among them and that I liked the Sigsauer the most. But then I got into Upland hunting and sporting clays so never got back into stationary target shooting again. Maybe, now, I'll look back into it. (After I master golf and fly-fishing :D .)

I Love SIGs, and H&Ks...
http://hometown.aol.com/f5fstop01/images/guns1.jpg
OLD PHOTO MISSING ANOTHER SIG...

[Big Z]

Trent! :D 1.........2..............3! :cool:......Sorry Rox!.......Kinda!..LOL


As This thread passes into oblivion!.....I leave YOU THIS!.....

MOST IMPORTANT RULE :D :cool: :eek:

[ROX]

Trent! 1.........2..............3! :cool:......Sorry Rox!.......Kinda!..LOL


As This thread passes into oblivion!.....I leave YOU THIS!.....

MOST IMPORTANT RULE :D :eek:That wasn't necessary...:mad: ;)

[f5fstop]

http://hometown.aol.com/f5fstop01/images/pissoffaliberal-1.jpg

http://hometown.aol.com/f5fstop01/images/evolutionofguncontrol.jpg

http://hometown.aol.com/f5fstop01/images/experts-agreerev1.jpg

[h2co-pilot]

Gun Apes!:p

(that was really weird Andy.:D )

[GeorgeSSSS]

Reminds me of a T-shirt I saw a few years ago and wish that I'd bought:

HK
When Negotiations
Break Down

A lot of truth there, I think.

George SSSS

[ETD]

I Love SIGs, and H&Ks...
http://hometown.aol.com/f5fstop01/images/guns1.jpg
OLD PHOTO MISSING ANOTHER SIG...

I am GREEN with envy.

Must... GET... HK's... and... SIG's. Must... GET... HK's... and...SIG's.

But, they're not made in USA:( . (They're not made in CHINA now, are they?:mad: :mad: :) )

[PARAGON]

lifted this from another site. This was posted on someone's Myspace account in a CCW group.Hello All.

I am new to this group; however I am not new to carrying. I have been carrying for awhile now. I have lived my entire life by the traditional Republican values (yes I said I am a Republican and damn proud of it!), the Boy Scout Motto of Be Prepared, and the motto Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

I carry six guns. All of them are Glocks in .40 S&@ caliber with Night Sights and are bone stock except for some wolf springs. I carry 2 Glock 22s on my right and left hips in C-Tacs, 2 Glock 23s in my Alessi Bodyguard shoulder holster, 1 Glock 27 on my left ankle, and another Glock 27 in my right hand pocket. I also carry some folding knives. I carry 2 Chris Reeves folding knives, both of them are Sebenzas. I carry the small one in the left hand pocket of my 5.11 Tactical pants. I carry the larger one in the mag pocket on the right hand side with a Glock 22 magazine. I carry another 4 Glock 22 magazines behind the guns on my hips. I carry an extra magazine on a mag pouch on my right hip. I also carry a surefire E2E flashlight clipped onto my left hand pocket. You never know when you will need a light. I am going to be carrying 2 pairs of hand cuffs when I decide on a decent manufacturer and holster (suggestions are wanted). For my commo gear (I wasnt in the military but I adopted some of it into my everyday lingo through many CCW courses) I use a Nextel I560 phone in black (dont want to get the yellow one and give my reflection away in case some BG seems me in an alley) and I have a Pager with Skytel service. I also have a Zippo lighter in case I need to make a torch or something if stuck in a Hurricane Katrina situation. I also carry some OC spray (Fox labs if youre wondering)

I just wanted to share some of my experiences. I have been carrying a long time. I remember when I got my first permit. I felt ecstatic. It was an awesome responsibility I was ready to deal with. Not to mention I had been trained for it. I took an intensive CCW class that was several hours in length and have taken a few classes since then. I was like a Police Officer on his first shift. I was so happy that I had been granted the right to carry because there needs to be many more CCWers to help bring crime rates down. It is a heavy burden that we as Sheepdogs have to bear to protect the sheeple.

On my first day CCWing I went on patrol and walked around the entire neighborhood watching things with my hyper sense of awareness. Nobody but other CCWers understands what I am talking about. I walked through the neighborhood and I saw the illegal immigrants sitting on the stoop watching me with a keen eye. I suspect that they were intimidated by my presence (I am 61 and 325 lbs) with a 50 inch waist. I dont understand Spanish but they must have been talking about me.

As a side note, what does Gordo mean?

I continued walking and I saw some gangbangers. There were 4 urban youth (read black kids playing basketball with jerseys listening to crap music err I mean rap music) who were probably carrying illegally. They were talking on someones porch. They looked at me and started talking amongst themselves. One of them called me biggie (some sort of respect thing?) and I kept walking.

As I got further into town I realized I needed to recharge my batteries with some food. I got myself a burrito at the local store. It was being worked by illegals (they are everywhere arent they?) but they make some damn good burritos and nachos. I got a huge super burrito (the kind that are football size) and some nachos with extra cheese and jalapenos. A large soda would wash that down nicely. I brought my food to the table and then got up to fill my soda (it was a self serve soda fountain) when some illegal immigrant gangbanger drug dealers walked in. One of them looked at me and I knew I was in for some trouble. They were probably packing guns. Gangbangers always pack lorcins and hi-points and not quality tactical gear. I made eye contact to let them know that I am hyper aware and that they will not be getting past me should something go down. Those stupid illegal immigrant gangbangers would regret messing with me.

Sure enough they called me a racist name. (Only white people can be racist, stupid racist illegal loving liberals!). I ignored it because I never start trouble when I am CCWing. I just waited in line for the soda machine when one of them pushed me. He wasnt strong enough to push my 345 lb frame. I told him not to touch me and took a defensive posture. I read about it on some tactical forums. Its one Navy SEALs use when going into close quarters combat. (I am not a SEAL or a veteran but I train just as hard with my CCW.) My CCW instructor approved of it and I told the illegal scumbag gangbanger that I would use force to defend myself and my family (who were not there, they dont patrol the neighborhood with me) if he should continue his attack.

They laughed and pushed me again. I pushed back. I threw my weight into it and pushed him into some tables. His other stupid Mexican illegal immigrant friend started saying something in Spanish and he put his hand into his pocket. I reached for the Glock 22 on my right hip and drew. The illegal immigrant took his hand out of his pocket and I told him to get down on the ground. Then I told his buddies to do the same thing. I then proceeded to handcuff the one who pushed me and the bigger of the other two. I then put on some Hatch Cooltac gloves and searched them. All of the employees in the store and the customers started clapping and cheering for me.

Bu not one to neglect my civic duty I had to keep a close eye and my Glock on the other one until my backup arrived. The responding officers came in with their guns drawn and ready to do some wet work. I laughed as once they saw me they put their guns away and I holstered mine. They proceeded to laugh once they saw I had the situation under complete control. They asked my advice on guns and we talked. I told them how I considered law enforcement at one point but I felt the job wasnt my forte. They didnt cuff me or anything and just took a statement. One of them even offered to buy me lunch and I got the number of one of the female officers who responded to the man with a gun call. When will the liberal anti-gunners learn that people like me are able to handle ourselves and act as sheepdogs for them (the sheeple)? Anyway we are going to the range and I am going to show her how to shoot. She also expressed getting her CCW permit. Luckily I have a lot of training and know a lot of people so she will probably taking a class where she will learn to think tactically.

After about 10 minutes of questioning from the cops I was ready to hit the streets again. I continued to walk down the street and check the neighborhood out. I decided that I should probably check the local Dunkin Donuts / Baskin Robbins out. I wanted to stop and rest my tired feet but as a civic minded CCWer I would not shirk my god given responsibilities to protect the neighborhood. I went in and got myself an extra large Peanut Butter and Chocolate malt. As I waited for the ******* to make my malt I noticed one of the officers I saw at the burrito shop. He nodded at me and I sat down at the table next to him. He told me what a good job I did and how much he loved responsible CCWers. I told him that it was just the training from my CCW classes. The whole You default to your level of training thing. He was very impressed and said I would make a fine tac-officer (SWAT for all you non-LEO types). Then he offered to pay for my malt as the ******* guy who worked there called out my order.

That was just one of my many forays into the streets. What made it unique was that it was my first day CCWing. Since then I have become an old hand when it comes to CCWing. I just wanted to share what my first day was like.

[Big Z]

Guess He Likes Throwing His WEIGHT Around! :eek: ........Dr. must have told him to start walking.......And to Include Ankle & Torso Weights! :cool: ..........Much!.....MUCH BETTER!............. than SOUP CANS! :) ...........And Nothing Wrong With Losing a few.........EXTRA OUNCES! :eek: ..............If Push Comes To..................Self Defense! :mad:

[Klaus]

:D

26681

[Big Z]

:D

26681

AMEN! :D:D:D Go ATF!....Defender!??:confused:

[Big Z]

Custom Built Accessories!......It's a Disease! :D :cool:

[Big Z]

speed loaders X 4! :cool:

[Miyuki]

Klaus...what's the rest of your shirt say? BTW...that is a hot look!!!

Personal: Glock 23, Springfield XD-40
Job: S&W 5906, 870 Rem, Colt AR-15

[Klaus]

26847

http://www.thoseshirts.com/atf.html

[h2co-pilot]

Wow, Klaus! You are way sexier than imagined.:D

http://www.icarry.org/media/santa-gun.jpg

[Klaus]

:D :D :D