Tires question after moab carnage???

[Alan06SUT]

I have noticed is that rigs w/ larger tires and even slightly diffrent wheel offsets seem to break more tie rods that 100% stock rigs; and, I have yet to witness a rocky trail where a rig w/ stock BFG's did not make it through where one w/ another type of mud terrain or 37's did. The execption is in Mud. the bigger, mud patten treads definatley work better there.
I was thinking about getting 37" BFG mud terrains, but after reding about the moad carnage, will they enhance my off roading capability by giving better ground clearance and grip in mud, or will they hurt me by potentially breaking parts on the trail?

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Alan06SUT:
I have noticed is that rigs w/ larger tires and even slightly diffrent wheel offsets seem to break more tie rods that 100% stock rigs; and, I have yet to witness a rocky trail where a rig w/ stock BFG's did not make it through where one w/ another type of mud terrain or 37's did. The execption is in Mud. the bigger, mud patten treads definatley work better there.
I was thinking about getting 37" BFG mud terrains, but after reding about the moad carnage, will they enhance my off roading capability by giving better ground clearance and grip in mud, or will they hurt me by potentially breaking parts on the trail? I believe both rigs that bent up the tie rods are running 35s. I know one of them was completely stock. The other has different tires from stock but I think they are still 35s, I think.

[CO Hummer]

I ran my original, balding, stock BFGs at Moab last week and have for the last 6 trips. I've had no tie rod issues. I've debated for a long time about going to 37s. I've decided I'm going to do it to offset the clearance I've lost with my new underbody protection. That one inch makes a difference. I'm also going to go with (I think) the BFG MTs. I was skeptical about the MTs since the ATs work so well. However, I've seen so many people crawl rocks, walls, and everything else with the MTs that I'm ready to give them a try.

I do think that keeping everything "stock" (except tie rods) is the way to mimimize damage/stress. The H3s that busted diffs in Moab had larger-than-stock tires. That said, it's not keeping me from going to 37s. I don't think it's going to be significantly more risky to do that, but I'm getting the Fabtech tie rods to compensate.

[MarineHawk]

As soon as you get the Fabtch tie rods, you're going to blow both diffs and your transfer case coming out of the driveway. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[MarineHawk]

Originally posted by Alan06SUT:
I have noticed is that rigs w/ larger tires and even slightly diffrent wheel offsets seem to break more tie rods that 100% stock rigs; and, I have yet to witness a rocky trail where a rig w/ stock BFG's did not make it through where one w/ another type of mud terrain or 37's did. The execption is in Mud. the bigger, mud patten treads definatley work better there.
I was thinking about getting 37" BFG mud terrains, but after reding about the moad carnage, will they enhance my off roading capability by giving better ground clearance and grip in mud, or will they hurt me by potentially breaking parts on the trail?

Alan (nice name - one of my favorite people has the same):
I love my 37s, but I wouldn't have them without the HD tie rods. Also, I actually have been getting better gas mileage at highway speeds - probably because it acts like a higher gear. Yet, in low range, I have more torque than I know what to do with. I cranked my t-bars up one inch. With that and the 37s, I have more than 12 inches of clearance under the front stock UCP. I also added the Cognito supports for extra insurance and stability. I actually like the way it rides now better than stock. Someone else would be more qualified than me on this subject, but with the extra UCP wieght up front (and especially if you have a winch too) cranking the t-bars a little probably isn't a bad idea, and might be a good idea, to support the extra weight.

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by CO Hummer:
I ran my original, balding, stock BFGs at Moab last week and have for the last 6 trips. I've had no tie rod issues. I've debated for a long time about going to 37s. I've decided I'm going to do it to offset the clearance I've lost with my new underbody protection. That one inch makes a difference. I'm also going to go with (I think) the BFG MTs. I was skeptical about the MTs since the ATs work so well. However, I've seen so many people crawl rocks, walls, and everything else with the MTs that I'm ready to give them a try.

I do think that keeping everything "stock" (except tie rods) is the way to mimimize damage/stress. The H3s that busted diffs in Moab had larger-than-stock tires. That said, it's not keeping me from going to 37s. I don't think it's going to be significantly more risky to do that, but I'm getting the Fabtech tie rods to compensate. I'm doubting the tires had a tremendous amount to do with the H3's diffs. It's likely the same would have occured with stockers with good traction the way it sounds like it occured.

The picture I saw of the H3 diff backs up the descriptions. A few teeth are missing off the ring gear which makes it appear that the truck was stationary and trying to move it's weight. The only extra thing that the 35s were providing for it at that time was a better contact patch.

[MarineHawk]

Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CO Hummer:
I ran my original, balding, stock BFGs at Moab last week and have for the last 6 trips. I've had no tie rod issues. I've debated for a long time about going to 37s. I've decided I'm going to do it to offset the clearance I've lost with my new underbody protection. That one inch makes a difference. I'm also going to go with (I think) the BFG MTs. I was skeptical about the MTs since the ATs work so well. However, I've seen so many people crawl rocks, walls, and everything else with the MTs that I'm ready to give them a try.

I do think that keeping everything "stock" (except tie rods) is the way to mimimize damage/stress. The H3s that busted diffs in Moab had larger-than-stock tires. That said, it's not keeping me from going to 37s. I don't think it's going to be significantly more risky to do that, but I'm getting the Fabtech tie rods to compensate. I'm doubting the tires had a tremendous amount to do with the H3's diffs. It's likely the same would have occured with stockers with good traction the way it sounds like it occured.

The picture I saw of the H3 diff backs up the descriptions. A few teeth are missing off the ring gear which makes it appear that the truck was stationary and trying to move it's weight. The only extra thing that the 35s were providing for it at that time was a better contact patch. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Para:
So what makes the teeth fail in such a circumstance? Is is it simply gear teeth that aren't strong/big enough or something else? I.e., what could be changed to prevent this in the future?

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by MarineHawk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CO Hummer:
I ran my original, balding, stock BFGs at Moab last week and have for the last 6 trips. I've had no tie rod issues. I've debated for a long time about going to 37s. I've decided I'm going to do it to offset the clearance I've lost with my new underbody protection. That one inch makes a difference. I'm also going to go with (I think) the BFG MTs. I was skeptical about the MTs since the ATs work so well. However, I've seen so many people crawl rocks, walls, and everything else with the MTs that I'm ready to give them a try.

I do think that keeping everything "stock" (except tie rods) is the way to mimimize damage/stress. The H3s that busted diffs in Moab had larger-than-stock tires. That said, it's not keeping me from going to 37s. I don't think it's going to be significantly more risky to do that, but I'm getting the Fabtech tie rods to compensate. I'm doubting the tires had a tremendous amount to do with the H3's diffs. It's likely the same would have occured with stockers with good traction the way it sounds like it occured.

The picture I saw of the H3 diff backs up the descriptions. A few teeth are missing off the ring gear which makes it appear that the truck was stationary and trying to move it's weight. The only extra thing that the 35s were providing for it at that time was a better contact patch. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Para:
So what makes the teeth fail in such a circumstance? Is is it simply gear teeth that aren't strong/big enough or something else? I.e., what could be changed to prevent this in the future? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I have no idea. I am purely speculating. It could be that the gears are not being set right on some of the trucks. Such as being too shallow and not getting enough bite. Or it could be that the ring is so small that only 2 teeth are in any contact with the pinion when there might usually be 3 or something. Maybe it's cheap gears.

Coincidences scare the sh!t out of me. I don't like them at all and try to hunt them down and cut them up into tiny little pieces. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I know the spot that this occured and heard the description of what happened when it happened and then to have 2 happen at the same time just bugs me a little.

Probably someone that does this sort of stuff for a living could offer more help.

[MarineHawk]

Sounds like you might be on the right track. I'm just hoping that it's something simple like incorrectly set or cheap gears that would be easy to fix.

[dochummer]

Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Alan06SUT:
I have noticed is that rigs w/ larger tires and even slightly diffrent wheel offsets seem to break more tie rods that 100% stock rigs; and, I have yet to witness a rocky trail where a rig w/ stock BFG's did not make it through where one w/ another type of mud terrain or 37's did. The execption is in Mud. the bigger, mud patten treads definatley work better there.
I was thinking about getting 37" BFG mud terrains, but after reding about the moad carnage, will they enhance my off roading capability by giving better ground clearance and grip in mud, or will they hurt me by potentially breaking parts on the trail? I believe both rigs that bent up the tie rods are running 35s. I know one of them was completely stock. The other has different tires from stock but I think they are still 35s, I think. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Note, one the of the H2's also had different shocks...softer from what I hear...

[MarineHawk]

As per Paragon, easy fix?:
http://elcova.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/2706067735/m/5431030081

[timgco]

...My 2 cents:

Honestly the tierod issue MOSTLY comes down to driver (unless there is something wrong in the front end) I ran 37" MT's on my SUT with stock tierods through Golden Spike. I didn't bend or break them. I have never broken a tierod yet. I also don't push my truck as hard as others though. (I skip some of the hardcore stuff).

I am now running 35's on 18's. I have added the FT tierods for extra insurance and would recomend them to anyone who plans to put their rigs into extreme trails.

I also think it's important to upgrade your stock steering stabilzer when running stock or larger tires off road. That will help with the additional stress put into your steering components (if nothing else it will aid in your steering efforts and you will feel less at the steering wheel).

Alan, per your question on the stock BFG's. You are correct. Those tires are great! The only disadvatage is in the deeper mud or clay. I can tell you from experience that the MT's suck in the snow vs the AT's though. But everywhere else, I loved them. If you buy new rims and go with the 37's, make sure your offset, backspacing and all that good stuff is correct before you spend that hard earned cash. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Good luck,
Tim.

[MarineHawk]

Originally posted by PhilD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MarineHawk:
As per Paragon, easy fix?:
http://elcova.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/2706067735/m/5431030081 Great idea, put some 5.13's in there, deliver loads of torque to the wheels and bust everything else. But that's okay, because you'll have a trailer with you, as you won't be able to drive above 60 mph on the highway http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are there just any stonger after-market 4.10:1 diffs?

[MarineHawk]

Originally posted by Alec W:
When I first got the MTs I didn’t like them and thought the stock AT were better.

But… for some reason now I really like the MTs maybe they are better slightly warn or I have just gotten used to them? Anyhow they look really cool http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ultimately for what I do I doubt there is any difference and as far as mud, H2s are too heavy (plus I hate cleaning up).

The number of people who wheel hard with HD tie-rods is fairly large now and I know of only one issue and that was on Ken’s monster H2. On the flip side I must have seen literally 25+ stock tie-rods bend/snap over the last 3 years.

The numbers speak for themselves IMO.

And, as Phil pointed out in another post, he hasn't seen driveline problems after installing HD tie rods; they occur after installing lifts, and front lockers, etc ...

[Alan06SUT]

I agree with the driver comments.

I.E if your wheel won't turn one way, there is probably a big rock there, back up and take a new line rather than forcing the wheel into the rock and squishing your tierod!Rocks dont give like GM tie rods do.....

I want to go to moab next year. I want to make it there in comfort.... from Atlanta, wheel all of the trails H2's can do, and make it back with as few incidents as possible. If the stock BFG's will do all of the moab stuff, I'm leaning toward just keeping them rather than moving up to 37's. But, from the repiles it seems like 37's w/ FT tie rods will be fine as well, plus I will look cooler and mud better! Hmmmmm

[Arizona Hummerboy]

I agree with the driver comments.

When I was at the Hummer Driving Academy I ask about breaking the tie rods. I was told that what they are seeing are the one's that are runing the bigger tires and are pushing there trucks hard are the ones breaking there tie rods and other parts on there trucks.

What they told me at the Academy is if your up against something and the wheel won't turn either way, don't force your truck over it, back up and take a new line on it.

I am runing the Stock BFG/AT on my H2 and I do wheel a lot in it and I have not had any problems with breaking any thing on the truck while wheeling it.

[Boss Hoss]

Originally posted by Alan06SUT:
But, from the repiles it seems like 37's w/ FT tie rods will be fine as well, plus I will look cooler and mud better! Hmmmmm

Just get some 20's and call it a day http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Arizona Hummerboy:
I agree with the driver comments.

When I was at the Hummer Driving Academy I ask about breaking the tie rods. I was told that what they are seeing are the one's that are runing the bigger tires and are pushing there trucks hard are the ones breaking there tie rods and other parts on there trucks. Well, that's common sense. The more you push your truck the more stuff is going to break. If you wheel, stock/modified/completely built, it's not if you will break something, it's when. That's just goes with the territory. That's why we take spare parts and tools with us on the trails

Originally posted by Arizona Hummerboy:
What they told me at the Academy is if your up against something and the wheel won't turn either way, don't force your truck over it, back up and take a new line on it.
I don't understand what you or they were saying here. If you are "off line" and need to correct yourself and can't without forcing the steering, then yeah, I can see how it makes sense. But anytime you stuff one of your tires against a ledge or rock that you are about to climb over, it is going to be difficult to turn the steering wheel and you'll never get anywhere.

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by PhilD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Arizona Hummerboy:
What they told me at the Academy is if your up against something and the wheel won't turn either way, don't force your truck over it, back up and take a new line on it.
That's all well and good, but most tie rods I've seen break are from front wheel spin and sudden traction. You try and avoid doing that obviously, but sometimes the front just breaks away, and by the time you've backed on the gas, boing, boing, snap. Other times you don't have any choice, the only way forward may involve spinning those tires a little. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>hence, my two-foot driving most of the time or BTM, if you will.

[MarineHawk]

Originally posted by PARAGON:
... hence, my two-foot driving most of the time or BTM, if you will.

I was amazed at how much more control I had going up and down rocks using BTM.

[It\'s a Dry Heat]

Thanks Arizona Hummerboy. Good post.

[Boss Hoss]

As i plan on running 37's next, the Moab tire/carnage debate had me concerned for about 3 seconds. What concerned me was not the 37's but the offset of my wheels. After thinking it over,in the 4th second my personal decision leads me to go with 37's, hd tie rods and cognitive driving.

Remember how much ground clearance you lost from airing down? My suspicion is the 37's will allow you to air down without losing the clearance. Youll be fine with the 37's but the next question is at's or mt's. IMO its hard to sacrifice ride quality when the at's perform well in most applications. Can you have the best of both worlds????....TOYO MT! I guess here is where DO NOW is supposed to go.

[MarineHawk]

I like the way mine rides now with the 37" Cooper STTs better than I did with the stock tires both on road and off. I got mine for $238/tire. Here's what they look like:

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i305/MarineHawk/Paragon/MH/ParagonApril232006008Medium.jpg

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i305/MarineHawk/Paragon/MH/ParagonApril232006011Medium.jpg

[Alan06SUT]

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Alan06SUT:
But, from the repiles it seems like 37's w/ FT tie rods will be fine as well, plus I will look cooler and mud better! Hmmmmm

Just get some 20's and call it a day http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im going to one-up you Boss and get some 24K gold 24" spokes!!!!

[Alan06SUT]

Originally posted by MarineHawk:
I like the way mine rides now with the 37" Cooper STTs better than I did with the stock tires both on road and off. I got mine for $238/tire. Here's what they look like:

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i305/MarineHawk/Paragon/MH/ParagonApril232006008Medium.jpg

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i305/MarineHawk/Paragon/MH/ParagonApril232006011Medium.jpg

Are those the brand new tread design for this year? I watch some show on TV about them I think. How do they grip on dry rocks? I have heard that BFGAT's do better than most MT's on dry rocks.

[MarineHawk]

It's a fairly new design, but I don't know for sure how new. I think it's about a year or so. To me, it's a pretty good compromise: It's got a little more tread than the MFG MTs and a little less than the ATs. Unlike the ATs, however, it has good sidewall tread going down several inches. Traction was great on wet rocks, dry rocks, mud, loose dirt, etc..

I had them aired down too much. See:
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i305/MarineHawk/Paragon/MH/ParagonApril232006016Medium.jpg

I used someone else's fancy valve deflator thingies, but one of my tires ended up at 14-15 psi. The rest were 17-18 psi. Because the traction was so good, I'll probably go with about 22 psi next time. They do have heavy sidewalls and weigh 84 lbs a piece. At 40 psi, they drive great on the pavement.

[PARAGON]

They look nearly identical to Goodyear's MT/Rs

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by MarineHawk:
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i305/MarineHawk/Paragon/MH/ParagonApril232006011Medium.jpg http://elcova.com/groupee/forums/a/ga/ul/7321058401/inlineimg/Y/newtires6.jpg

[Alan06SUT]

QUOTE]That is a little low, but if you moving slow you'll be fine, although you do increase the potential of popping a bead.
[/QUOTE]....and you loose quite a bit of ground clearance.

Personally, I think our trucks are too heavy to go any less than 20PSI. I did and broke a bead, as well as scraped on many more rocks than when I had inflated them to 30 PSI. I did not notice any lack of grip at 30.

[Alan06SUT]

That is a little low, but if you moving slow you'll be fine, although you do increase the potential of popping a bead.
....and you loose quite a bit of ground clearance.

Personally, I think our trucks are too heavy to go any less than 20PSI. I did and broke a bead, as well as scraped on many more rocks than when I had inflated them to 30 PSI. I did not notice any lack of grip at 30.

[ShaggyX]

Originally posted by Alan06SUT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">That is a little low, but if you moving slow you'll be fine, although you do increase the potential of popping a bead.
....and you loose quite a bit of ground clearance.

Personally, I think our trucks are too heavy to go any less than 20PSI. I did and broke a bead, as well as scraped on many more rocks than when I had inflated them to 30 PSI. I did not notice any lack of grip at 30. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>wow...deja vu. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[CO Hummer]

Originally posted by Alec W:
I ran everything at 18 this time and didn't really notice any difference so will go back to 25.

On Saturday I found out that I ran the entire week at 30 psi.

Adam was with me when I was filling up my tires. My air hose guage said I was starting the refill from 30 psi. I checked them again with my deflator's gauge and it said 20. I used Adam's gauge to figure out which one was right. Turns out, my hose gauge was right. So that P.O.S. deflator guage screwed up my deflation and I didn't go down as much as I should have.

[MarineHawk]

Originally posted by Alec W:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhilD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Alan06SUT:
Personally, I think our trucks are too heavy to go any less than 20PSI. I agree totally, but you can go down to 15 psi if need be, you just have to real slow and careful, or use bead locks. I think 18 is a little low and for the most part think 20-25 works fine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I ran everything at 18 this time and didn't really notice any difference so will go back to 25. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly what I'm going to do next time. I never had even the slightest traction issue, but I wouldn't mind another 1/2-1 inches of clearance or whatever it would be going from 18 to 25 psi.

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by CO Hummer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Alec W:
I ran everything at 18 this time and didn't really notice any difference so will go back to 25.

On Saturday I found out that I ran the entire week at 30 psi.

Adam was with me when I was filling up my tires. My air hose guage said I was starting the refill from 30 psi. I checked them again with my deflator's gauge and it said 20. I used Adam's gauge to figure out which one was right. Turns out, my hose gauge was right. So that P.O.S. deflator guage screwed up my deflation and I didn't go down as much as I should have. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>STAUNS..... DO NOW!!!!!