13 year old fires AK47 in school

[NewHummerGuy]

OK, where in the HELL does a 13 year old get an AK47?????

Parents should be shot.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/09/missouri.school.ap/index.html

[KenP]

And how the hell did he get it into the school without being noticed?

That could have been very tragic.

[GLBLWARMR]

Someone needs to take the gun and shoot the parents.

[PARAGON]

And how the hell did he get it into the school without being noticed?

That could have been very tragic.How the hell did he make it TO school without being noticed.

[Mr. I - Man]

How the hell did he make it TO school without being noticed.

Maybe it was a Krinkov:D

[PARAGON]

Maybe it was a Krinkov:D

Along those lines, it was probably a 20 gauge shotgun..... since CNN was doing the reporting, who knows what the weapon was. ;)

[Hmmm2]

Even with all of the latest shootings, it doesn't appear that school staff take notice to the comings and goings of anyone entering school campuses. An AK47 under a coat could look like a trombone case on "Music Day" at school. What are they waiting for?!?!?!?!?!?!:rant:

[PARAGON]

Let's say it's a Krinkov-style short barrel with a folding stock. With all of the other school shootings, how do you miss this:

A 13-year-old student wearing a mask and a long, black trench coat fired an AK-47 into the ceiling at his school Monday morning

[Mr. I - Man]

Early morning October chill in the air.

[f5fstop]

Interesting idea:

Rep. Lasee: To Introduce Bill To Allow School Personnel To Carry Weapons
10/4/2006


Contact Rep. Frank Lasee: 1-(608) 266-9870

In Wake of School Shootings Lawmaker Says All Options Should Be on the Table to Prevent School Violence
Madison?Following three violent school shooting that struck the nation in the past two weeks, including one in a small rural town in Wisconsin, State Representative Frank Lasee (R-Bellevue) announced his plans to introduce legislation that will allow teachers, principals, administrators, and other school personnel to carry concealed weapons. The lawmaker said that while his idea may not be politically correct, it has worked effectively in other countries.
?To make our schools safe for our students to learn all options should be on the table,? said Lasee. ?Israel and Thailand have well trained teachers carrying weapons and keeping their children safe from harm. It can work in Wisconsin.?
Israeli teachers and parent volunteers have been carrying concealed weapons in their classrooms for twenty five years. Before teachers armed themselves, schools in the West Bank and Gaza Strip had been repeatedly attacked by Palestinian terrorists. Hundreds of children were killed. Not one child has been harmed by gunfire in an Israeli school since. Thailand followed Israel?s lead and allowed their teachers to carry guns for protection after their schools were targeted by Muslim extremists. The results have been the same ? less violence and a safer learning environment for their children. In both countries several terrorist attacks have been prevented by anonymous well trained teachers who carry concealed weapons.
?The element of surprise is a powerful tool,? added Lasee. ?In Israel and Thailand several lives have been saved because criminals don?t want to attack schools where well-trained marksmen and women may return fire.?
Lasee said he wants to bring this proven program to Wisconsin. Lasee?s bill will NOT require all teachers and school personnel to carry weapons. It will simply give them the option. The proposal will require stringent training both on the range and in the classroom for any school employee who wants to carry concealed.
?We have a duty to protect our children,? said Lasee. ?If we truly want to make our schools safe havens for learning, we should give our teachers and school employees access to the tools and training they need to protect our kids from harm.?
The lawmaker said he will offer the bill for co-sponsorship when the state legislature reconvenes early next year.

[Wisha Haddan H3]

At the risk of being inappropriate ...

Teacher's Lounge: Hollowpoints are for wooses. Real teachers use hardball.

Principal's office: Is that a pistol in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?

Orientation: Anyone caught cheating will receive a week of detention. Second offenders will get a cap in their ass.

Recess: Can you stand guard for me? I have got to get to a restroom.

4th period: I've got a bucketful of brass waiting for you to polish in detention, young man.

Holidays: Merry Christmas teacher ... I got you a speedloader.

Field Day: Forgot your starting pistol? Here, borrow mine.

Finals: This is a timed test. When the barrel goes up, I want all pencils down.

:D

[f5fstop]

Almost all the states with concealed handgun permits that allow people to carry concealed handguns on school property; not into the school, but when dropping off or picking up kids. The concealed permit in most states allows the permit holder to disregard the US Gun Free School Zone Law. Anyone ever hear of a problem with a concealed permit holder opening fire in a school zone?
Utah and pretty sure Oregon allow people to currently carry concealed handguns on school property (Maybe New Hampshire too). Have there been any problems? And let's not forget the Appalachian School of Law in 2003, when permit holders stopped the African from killing more professors and/or students.

[GLBLWARMR]

14-year-old fires once, hits man in head:

Sight alignment, sight picture. Sight Alignment, sight picture. Someone probably took the time to teach the kid the fundamentals of marksmanship.

[Wisha Haddan H3]

All humor aside, there's a lot of risk allowing teachers to carry handguns.

Just carrying a firearm doesn't make you competent in marksmanship, stress management, crisis management, fire suppression, threat incursion or coordination with police and SWAT. At the very least, police could mistake an armed teacher for the intruder. Plus, there are unstable people in every profession.

My point is that not everyone should be armed. I don't mind teachers carrying firearms ... but imo, they would have to register their carry weapon so the Principal and law enforcement know who's armed on campus. And they would need annual training in gun safety, marksmanship, crisis management and command & control with local police. They obviously would have to pass a criminal background check and have no history of domestic violence.

As for the 14-year-old saving his mom's life ... that is AWESOME. That took a lot of guts and composure under pressure.

:perfect10s:

[PARAGON]

All humor aside, there's a lot of risk allowing teachers to carry handguns.

Just carrying a firearm doesn't make you competent in marksmanship, stress management, crisis management, fire suppression, threat incursion or coordination with police and SWAT. At the very least, police could mistake an armed teacher for the intruder. Plus, there are unstable people in every profession.

My point is that not everyone should be armed. I don't mind teachers carrying firearms ... but imo, they would have to register their carry weapon so the Principal and law enforcement know who's armed on campus. And they would need annual training in gun safety, marksmanship, crisis management and command & control with local police. They obviously would have to pass a criminal background check and have no history of domestic violence.

As for the 14-year-old saving his mom's life ... that is AWESOME. That took a lot of guts and composure under pressure.

:perfect10s::lame:

You have no clue what you are talking about. No one needs annual training in markmanship. You shoot constantly. Gun safety is not something you train for annually either. Either you know gun safety or you don't.

Just because someone has a gun doesn't mean that they have the capacity to handle a certain situation... given. But to assume that, in your little fairy world, that a registered handgun and the other crap you read somewhere would have an impact is seriously flawed.

No carry individual would have need for any command and control training. Nor do they need to know, other than what they receive in the average conceal carry course, how to interact with LEOs. If someone doesn't have common sense, they should not have the handgun on them, and they are more than likely are not going to make the best decisions when faced with the fast-moving high-stressed situations that this accounts for.

[f5fstop]

All humor aside, there's a lot of risk allowing teachers to carry handguns.

Just carrying a firearm doesn't make you competent in marksmanship, stress management, crisis management, fire suppression, threat incursion or coordination with police and SWAT. At the very least, police could mistake an armed teacher for the intruder. Plus, there are unstable people in every profession.

My point is that not everyone should be armed. I don't mind teachers carrying firearms ... but imo, they would have to register their carry weapon so the Principal and law enforcement know who's armed on campus. And they would need annual training in gun safety, marksmanship, crisis management and command & control with local police. They obviously would have to pass a criminal background check and have no history of domestic violence.

As for the 14-year-old saving his mom's life ... that is AWESOME. That took a lot of guts and composure under pressure.

:perfect10s:

Some points I agree, some I don't. As for the background checks, I agree, but I believe in most states they do this now. Yes, if there is a COP on site and the principle as well as others would need to know which teach has a gun and who doesn't.
The Senator on TV stated it would be similar to the arming of pilots. Totally voluntary, with training. It would be used as the last line of defense. The defense of the kids being shot at by a nut with a gun, while everyone is waiting for the police to respond.
The important fact to remember, is the teacher with a legal gun, would have to abide by all state laws, and be aware, he or she may have to shoot a kid someday, in defense of other kids or adults. This would be the hardest part to overcome.
In most states, almost anyone can obtain a permit to carry a gun. In 2001, FBI statistics mentioned that 28 percent of handguns pulled on a criminal were taken away and used against the owner. However, that means 72 percent used the handgun in self-defense; whether they had to pull the trigger or not. (Note: the study mentioned that 17 percent of police officers also lost their gun to the criminal.)
Many carry a gun, but quite few will never pull the trigger even to save their life or the lives of their love ones.
Practice is good, since during a time of extreme stress when you have to pull a gun in defense, the response of pulling a gun is mostly muscle reaction; muscles trained by years of training*. However, shooting a paper target, does not condition someone to actually pull the trigger on another human being.

(*Years of training is not standing fifty feet away from a paper target. Years of training is defensive training developed and taught by places such as the SIG Academy in Exeter, NH., H&K Defensive Training, Ashburn, VA or Orbendorf, Germany, Thunder Ranch, FBI Training Facility in Quantico, VA. or Academy of Personal Protection and Security. These places are known by me, but there are plenty of other places across the USA.)

[ssgharkness020147]

This idea kind of weirds me out. Though so long as our current "Governor" is in place there is no way it would ever happen. He wont even let the citizens carry guns, let alone school teachers. Either way I feel that Mr. Lasee is trying to equate issues that occur in other parts of the world for very different reasons. The reason school faculty members are armed in Israel is to PROTECT the children from outside extremists, not to protect themselves from threats within the school itself. This idea will ride of in the sunset real quick with Doyal in office. But, if Mark Green the Republican incumbent get elected (and he'd better), we'll see what he does with this.


Interesting idea:

Rep. Lasee: To Introduce Bill To Allow School Personnel To Carry Weapons
10/4/2006


Contact Rep. Frank Lasee: 1-(608) 266-9870

In Wake of School Shootings Lawmaker Says All Options Should Be on the Table to Prevent School Violence
Madison?Following three violent school shooting that struck the nation in the past two weeks, including one in a small rural town in Wisconsin, State Representative Frank Lasee (R-Bellevue) announced his plans to introduce legislation that will allow teachers, principals, administrators, and other school personnel to carry concealed weapons. The lawmaker said that while his idea may not be politically correct, it has worked effectively in other countries.
?To make our schools safe for our students to learn all options should be on the table,? said Lasee. ?Israel and Thailand have well trained teachers carrying weapons and keeping their children safe from harm. It can work in Wisconsin.?
Israeli teachers and parent volunteers have been carrying concealed weapons in their classrooms for twenty five years. Before teachers armed themselves, schools in the West Bank and Gaza Strip had been repeatedly attacked by Palestinian terrorists. Hundreds of children were killed. Not one child has been harmed by gunfire in an Israeli school since. Thailand followed Israel?s lead and allowed their teachers to carry guns for protection after their schools were targeted by Muslim extremists. The results have been the same ? less violence and a safer learning environment for their children. In both countries several terrorist attacks have been prevented by anonymous well trained teachers who carry concealed weapons.
?The element of surprise is a powerful tool,? added Lasee. ?In Israel and Thailand several lives have been saved because criminals don?t want to attack schools where well-trained marksmen and women may return fire.?
Lasee said he wants to bring this proven program to Wisconsin. Lasee?s bill will NOT require all teachers and school personnel to carry weapons. It will simply give them the option. The proposal will require stringent training both on the range and in the classroom for any school employee who wants to carry concealed.
?We have a duty to protect our children,? said Lasee. ?If we truly want to make our schools safe havens for learning, we should give our teachers and school employees access to the tools and training they need to protect our kids from harm.?
The lawmaker said he will offer the bill for co-sponsorship when the state legislature reconvenes early next year.

[f5fstop]

I agree, it will go nowhere no matter who is in office. It was an idea, I liked it, but the anti-gun crowd will come out like crazy against this one.

[ssgharkness020147]

Can someone explain to me why school shootings seem to happen in waves????:confused: Think about it, it seems like everytime on school shooting happens a bunch of others quickly follow. I dont know if kids see all the other attention that kids who shot up a school got and then do it themselves??? Why would that matter. But on the other hand that does not matter, any kid that shoots up a school will get front page attention nationwide. It doesnt matter if your the first, last, or any where in between. I'd really like to know why when one kid shoots up a school that a bunch of others follow. Its like kids sit waiting and wanting to shoot up their school, but wait until some other kid does it first before acting themselves. I dont get it, i really dont get it.

[ssgharkness020147]

I dont think the anti gun groups could really do too much. In Wisconsin they really wield no power. This is a blue collar hunting state, people like their guns up here. The only reason that CCW did not pass is cause of Doyal, the citizens wanted it. Issues like that make me wonder why the fu*k I vote. I vote to elect people that will represent my interests, but it seems that it does not matter. Once elected officals are in they just seem to do as they please, not as I the citizen and voter want. Then again I did not vote for Doyal, this time around Mark Green has my vote. He seems like he has much better ideas.


I agree, it will go nowhere no matter who is in office. It was an idea, I liked it, but the anti-gun crowd will come out like crazy against this one.

[f5fstop]

Can someone explain to me why school shootings seem to happen in waves????:confused: Think about it, it seems like everytime on school shooting happens a bunch of others quickly follow. I dont know if kids see all the other attention that kids who shot up a school got and then do it themselves??? Why would that matter. But on the other hand that does not matter, any kid that shoots up a school will get front page attention nationwide. It doesnt matter if your the first, last, or any where in between. I'd really like to know why when one kid shoots up a school that a bunch of others follow. Its like kids sit waiting and wanting to shoot up their school, but wait until some other kid does it first before acting themselves. I dont get it, i really dont get it.

Well, three of the five (counting this kid with the AK) school shootings were adults, not kids. Not sure if the others were in any type of grouping; other than the adult shootings.

-- Oct. 2, 2006: (Adult)
-- Sept. 29, 2006:
-- Sept. 27, 2006: (Adult)
-- Aug. 24, 2006: (Adult)

-- March 21, 2005:

-- Nov. 22, 2004:

-- April 24, 2003:

--August 22, 2000:
-- May 26, 2000:

-- April 20, 1999:

-- May 21, 1998:
-- May 19, 1998:
-- March 24, 1998:
-- Dec. 1, 1997:
-- Oct. 1, 1997:

[f5fstop]

I dont think the anti gun groups could really do too much. In Wisconsin they really wield no power. This is a blue collar hunting state, people like their guns up here. The only reason that CCW did not pass is cause of Doyal, the citizens wanted it. Issues like that make me wonder why the fu*k I vote. I vote to elect people that will represent my interests, but it seems that it does not matter. Once elected officals are in they just seem to do as they please, not as I the citizen and voter want. Then again I did not vote for Doyal, this time around Mark Green has my vote. He seems like he has much better ideas.

Didn't know that about WI. Good luck, hope you get a new Gov and get a CCW you can all live with.
Kansas had the same problems, but they overrode the Veto this year to finally pass a CCW.

[Wisha Haddan H3]

:lame:

You have no clue what you are talking about. No one needs annual training in markmanship. You shoot constantly. Gun safety is not something you train for annually either. Either you know gun safety or you don't.

Just because someone has a gun doesn't mean that they have the capacity to handle a certain situation... given. But to assume that, in your little fairy world, that a registered handgun and the other crap you read somewhere would have an impact is seriously flawed.

No carry individual would have need for any command and control training. Nor do they need to know, other than what they receive in the average conceal carry course, how to interact with LEOs. If someone doesn't have common sense, they should not have the handgun on them, and they are more than likely are not going to make the best decisions when faced with the fast-moving high-stressed situations that this accounts for.
Are we talking about the same thing? I'm talking about registering educators for concealed carry in the classroom ... not about concealed carry in general or the right to bear arms. I'm only saying make educators learn, train and demonstrate their proficiency before they take the responsibility of carrying concealed in school.

I have been shooting for 15 years. I am well-versed in gun safety, disassembly and maintenance and I value my 2nd amendment rights. But if I were a teacher carrying concealed to defend my students, these are things I would require of myself before I took on that responsibility. And it's what I would expect from my fellow teachers.

You're right about "training" in marksmanship and gun safety. I should have said "certifying or qualifying" (my mistake). Not every certification would have to be annual, either. But proficiency requires practice, and how do we know everyone's practicing? If a teacher accepts the responsibility of bearing arms to protect the classroom, should I just take their word that they understand (and practice) gun safety, can hit a target, and can work with police and others in a crisis? Should I accept that blindly and without verification?

No.

There is huge value in requiring background checks and "concealed classroom carry" permits for armed educators. If nothing else, at least police know how many armed teachers are inside and who they are, so they don't get shot when SWAT storms the building.

But more to the point, if teachers are going to be responsible for defending our classrooms by force, it's realistic to set basic requirements for concealed classroom carry. They should demonstrate that they understand gun handling and safety, can hit a target consistently and have logged at least the minimum time on the firing range. Only the Principal and administrators would probably need training to understand police command & control, but all teachers would benefit from police terminology so they can follow or pass on instructions. And if they're going to take on a gunman, they must understand cover, concealment and backstops, and be able to put the bullets where they count under pressure. Or else why carry in the first place?

The real fairy world is letting teachers decide for themselves if they ought carry concealed, blindly trusting them to do the right thing under pressure, and then actually believing your kids are safer for it.

[PARAGON]

Are we talking about the same thing? I'm talking about registering educators for concealed carry in the classroom ... not about concealed carry in general or the right to bear arms. I'm only saying make educators learn, train and demonstrate their proficiency before they take the responsibility of carrying concealed in school.

I have been shooting for 15 years. I am well-versed in gun safety, disassembly and maintenance and I value my 2nd amendment rights. But if I were a teacher carrying concealed to defend my students, these are things I would require of myself before I took on that responsibility. And it's what I would expect from my fellow teachers.

You're right about "training" in marksmanship and gun safety. I should have said "certifying or qualifying" (my mistake). Not every certification would have to be annual, either. But proficiency requires practice, and how do we know everyone's practicing? If a teacher accepts the responsibility of bearing arms to protect the classroom, should I just take their word that they understand (and practice) gun safety, can hit a target, and can work with police and others in a crisis? Should I accept that blindly and without verification?

No.

There is huge value in requiring background checks and "concealed classroom carry" permits for armed educators. If nothing else, at least police know how many armed teachers are inside and who they are, so they don't get shot when SWAT storms the building.

But more to the point, if teachers are going to be responsible for defending our classrooms by force, it's realistic to set basic requirements for concealed classroom carry. They should demonstrate that they understand gun handling and safety, can hit a target consistently and have logged at least the minimum time on the firing range. Only the Principal and administrators would probably need training to understand police command & control, but all teachers would benefit from police terminology so they can follow or pass on instructions. And if they're going to take on a gunman, they must understand cover, concealment and backstops, and be able to put the bullets where they count under pressure. Or else why carry in the first place?

The real fairy world is letting teachers decide for themselves if they ought carry concealed, blindly trusting them to do the right thing under pressure, and then actually believing your kids are safer for it.

No, the fairy world is the fact that it matters differently because to you because it's a classroom when that same person can be carrying in more high risk situations where children are present and security is much less.

I just have one question for you.....

fire suppression?:lame:

[Wisha Haddan H3]

No, the fairy world is the fact that it matters differently because to you because it's a classroom when that same person can be carrying in more high risk situations where children are present and security is much less. Took a while to sort out what you wrote. I think you're saying that concealed carry by a teacher is less risky than on the street because of campus security. And therefore it only requires the same regulation as traditional concealed carry.

I disagree.

During regular carry, your goal is to protect yourself and family from a person or part of town you have reason to fear. Children may be present, but you don't have the explicit responsibility to care for and protect other people's kids every day. School attacks also take place on a much larger scale, potentially involving hundreds of students and faculty. Add to this that teachers are far outnumbered as the few adult decision-makers on campus. What's more, they must be able to shoot down a student attacker they know and care about, as well as someone who may not be attacking them directly.

These are important differences in scope and scale. It's a higher degree of responsiblity, which requires a correspondingly higher standard of training and qualification. Simply allowing teachers to carry concealed because they want to will not make schools safer. It only creates a false sense of security.

It would be like having an epidemic and expecting to protect student health by allowing teachers to carry stethoscopes, meanwhile refusing to require special training on their use, instruction on which symptoms to identify (and how to identify them), or any protocols on what to do when they find something. The teachers would manage their own training and self-assessment, and figure out how to work with health care professionals by themselves, hoping to do the right thing while students live or die by their actions and decisions.

That lack of training would be unthinkable in healthcare. It's all the more important regarding lethal weapons, educators and crime in school. It would have taken a lot more than a lucky shot from a concealed weapon to end the hostage crisis in Bailey or the massacre at Columbine ... much more preparation than you get in the average concealed carry course. We should either require a high standard of training or not let teachers carry concealed in the first place.