Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?

[bparker]

WTF is wrong with our government? Do they think we are so stupid to believe that our govt needs the ability to track credit records of suspected terrorist in the middle east?

Terrorist do not go into a bank and ask for a loan to buy a bomb...

Am I missing something here or is this just gay?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-01-13-pentagon-bank-records_x.htm


WASHINGTON (AP) ? The Pentagon and to a lesser extent the CIA have been using a little-known power to look at the banking and credit records of hundreds of Americans and others suspected of terrorism or espionage within the United States, officials said Saturday.
Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said Saturday the Defense Department "makes requests for information under authorities of the National Security Letter statutes ... but does not use the specific term National Security Letter in its investigatory practice."
Whitman did not indicate the number of requests that have been made in recent years, but said authorities operate under the Right to Financial Privacy Act, the Fair Credit Reporting Act and the National Security Act.
"These statutory tools may provide key leads for counterintelligence and counterterrorism investigations," Whitman said. "Because these are requests for information rather than court orders, a DOD request under the NSL statutes cannot be compelled absent court involvement."
"It is our understanding that the intelligence community agencies make such requests on a limited basis," said Carl Kropf, a spokesman for the Office of the National Intelligence Director, which oversees all 16 spy agencies in the government.
The national security letters permit the executive branch to seek records about people in terror and spy investigations without a judge's approval or grand jury subpoena.
The Federal Bureau of Investigation, the lead agency on domestic counterterrorism and espionage, has issued thousands of national security letters since the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.
Whitman said Defense Department "counterintelligence investigators routinely coordinate ... with the FBI."
The national security letters have prompted criticism and court challenges from civil liberties advocates who claim they invade the privacy of Americans' lives, even though banks and other financial institutions typically turn over the financial records voluntarily.
The New York Times reported on expanded use of the technique by the Pentagon and CIA in an article posted Saturday on the Internet.
The vast majority of national security letters are issued by the FBI, but in very rare circumstances they have been used by the CIA before and after 9/11, said a U.S. intelligence official who spoke to the Associated Press on condition of anonymity because of the issue's sensitivity.
The CIA has used these non-compulsory letters in espionage investigations and other circumstances, the official said.
"It is very uncommon for the agency to be issuing these letters," the official said. "The agency has the authority to do so, and it is absolutely lawful."
Another government official, also speaking on condition of anonymity, said one example of a case in which the letters were used was the 1994 case of CIA officer Aldrich Ames, who eventually was found to have been selling secrets to the Soviet Union.
None of the officials reached by the AP commented about the extent of use by the Defense Department agencies, but the Times said military intelligence officers have sent the letters in up to 500 investigations.
Associated Press Writer Katherine Shrader contributed to this report.
Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

[dеiтайожни]

Terrorist do not go into a bank and ask for a loan to buy a bomb...

Hmm... you sure seem to know a lot about how and how not to buy these types of things. Anything you need to tell us?

[NJ H2]

Personally I thinnk the Government should track suspected Terrorists anyway they can. Why do you care if they track suspected Terrorists anyway? :confused:

[bparker]

I will defer if you can give me one example of why a terrorist would use "credit" for his dirty dealings....

Think....

Personally I thinnk the Government should track suspected Terrorists anyway they can. Why do you care if they track suspected Terrorists anyway? :confused:

[deserth3]

To keep track of expenses for tax purposes...

Wouldn't want him to go to jail for tax fraud before he had a chance to blow himself up would we?:twak:

[bparker]

ROFL again... how many terroist do you think are here in the USA using credit to buy things?

Amazing...

[deserth3]

I definetely don't know. But try to buy a plane ticket or rent a car without one. More and more they are required.

[NJ H2]

I definetely don't know. But try to buy a plane ticket or rent a car without one. More and more they are required.

Exactly :beerchug:

I really don't this any Terrorists are rolling up to the American Airlines Ticket Counter with Cash :giggling:

[Vettster]

I mean it's like a suicide bomber is gonna worry about his credit rating after he blows himself up.:p

[bparker]

Actually alot of people use cash abroad. Its mostly americans who use credit cards. And not to mention if you dont think they already get a list of people who board planes or are inbound to the USA via the airlines logbook you are mistaken.

I still cant think of a reason they need to look at our credit...
Exactly :beerchug:

I really don't this any Terrorists are rolling up to the American Airlines Ticket Counter with Cash :giggling:

[DennisAJC]

Exactly :beerchug:

I really don't this any Terrorists are rolling up to the American Airlines Ticket Counter with Cash :giggling:

X3. If they think they have a good cover, they'll use a credit card at every opportunity (They're not worried about paying for a bill they'll probably never see.). Cash nowadays brings up the red flag depending on the amount. I've travelled quite a bit and I find most cultures nowadays use Credit instead of cash.

[KenP]

I don't care if they track CC payments. Hell, I'll give them mine if they ask nicely.

[bparker]

Its not CC payments..

Its really not that big of a deal - to me - most are missing the point.. oh well...

I don't care if they track CC payments. Hell, I'll give them mine if they ask nicely.

[SnakeH2]

Its not CC payments..

Its really not that big of a deal - to me - most are missing the point.. oh well...

Was there a point?

[KenP]

They can track the purchases of airline tickets. I don't want a suspected terrorist on my plane, do you?

[bparker]

omg of crouse....

we are soooooo off track at this point...

[DennisAJC]

omg of crouse....

we are soooooo off track at this point...

Maybe you should be more clear next time.:rolleyes:

I want to make vulgar and negative comments towards you but my upgrades do not allow it.

I think you're the tops!:beerchug:

[bparker]

lol you can always use PMs :D

[deserth3]

omg of crouse....

we are soooooo off track at this point...

What thread here doesn't go off track? It's part of the reason I like it here.:clapping:

I get your point. But I can also look around at our society and see how clueless and volnerable we actualy are. Despite 9/11 there are still alot of people out there who think that nothing like that would happen to them.

[h2co-pilot]

Doy!

They track credit cards because they are given to them by a "sponsor" group or individual. Most of them are pre-paid, like children off to college.

Individuals and contract holders add cell members to an account and those purchases can track locations etc. I bet the hijackers used credit cards to but their plane tickets- and in that case the plane was a WMD. So their tactics are unconventional and therefore purchases may be.

It's not so much the purchases but the activity.

"It is our understanding that the intelligence community agencies make such requests on a limited basis,"

And the big broad random searches don't yield much anyway.

Data mining is not an invasion of privacy because it is programmed and run by super computers. If you think that every purchase you make isn't compiled into reports already you are sadly mistaken.

Am I pissed that my "Food Lion MVP Coupon Card" on my keychain tracks what I buy? No. Hopefully, the store will carry more of the Tampax pearl variety.

[NEOCON1]

we need to hunt them down with any means we have . all this pu$$y footin around is gonna get us killed ;)

[h2co-pilot]

OH BPARKER!!!:D I responded on topic and have been waiting.:yawn:

http://www.elcovaforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=353261&postcount=20

Where are you? Oh wait hold on.....
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.... I see you have been at 7-11 and bought a bag of Doritos. Man, your breath must stink!!

After you brush your teeth with the COLGATE you got last week, come back and we can discuss.:fdance:

[bparker]

Co-pilot - i see you missed it too. This is not about credit cards. Who cares about credit cards...

I can see that this threads intention was missed by so many and now its diluted to $hit slinging again by internet wanna be badasses

The intended topic was about CREDIT HISTORY - not CREDIT CARDS. Which in my view is a bit comical because really W T F do you think "government" can gain by accessing our "credit history" in regards to terrorism or espionage - which was their justification for doing so.

Again, I repeat for those that don?t get it. It is FUNNY for those that see the light. I guess if it still doesn?t strike accord with you then we have different views about what our govt does that may be funny to you or me..

At this point who cares as now everyone is sitting with baited breath just to take a stab at me for some fuked up reason.

[h2co-pilot]

Co-pilot - i see you missed it too. This is not about credit cards. Who cares about credit cards...

I can see that this threads intention was missed by so many and now its diluted to $hit slinging again by internet wanna be badasses

The intended topic was about CREDIT HISTORY - not CREDIT CARDS. Which in my view is a bit comical because really W T F do you think "government" can gain by accessing our "credit history" in regards to terrorism or espionage - which was their justification for doing so.

Again, I repeat for those that don’t get it. It is FUNNY for those that see the light. I guess if it still doesn’t strike accord with you then we have different views about what our govt does that may be funny to you or me..

At this point who cares as now everyone is sitting with baited breath just to take a stab at me for some fuked up reason.

You're did the Dean scream during that post didn't you.;):D

I care, but I read this and thought banking and credit records. I saw nothing indicating a score.

The Pentagon and to a lesser extent the CIA have been using a little-known power to look at the banking and credit records of hundreds of Americans and others suspected of terrorism or espionage within the United States, officials said Saturday.

Not to mention the New York Times beautifully leaking our methods to our enemies- again.

It's obvious we have had different opinions. But honestly I was making light of your responses (in my last post) in this thread, not being a badass. :confused:

I and others (probably) thought they were contributing and you have been so demanding. Like a kid yelling at you for not knowing that Thor has the horns and He-man doesn't. Calm down. Jeez.

[bparker]

Yea differences of opinions are great as it brings possible information and other views not considered by others into view for a better perspective.



First you said....
.... I see you have been at 7-11 and bought a bag of Doritos. Man, your breath must stink!!

After you brush your teeth with the COLGATE you got last week, come back and we can discuss.

Now you say...
But honestly I was making light of your responses (in my last post) in this thread, not being a badass.

[SnakeH2]

Yea differences of opinions are great as it brings possible information and other views not considered by others into view for a better perspective.

Unless those opinions are sh*t. Then it's just a waste of energy;)

[bparker]

Lol well you know what they say about opinions - they are just like aholes and everyone has one. Some just smell better than others.. :beerchug:

[h2co-pilot]

Yea differences of opinions are great as it brings possible information and other views not considered by others into view for a better perspective.



First you said....

.... I see you have been at 7-11 and bought a bag of Doritos. Man, your breath must stink!!

After you brush your teeth with the COLGATE you got last week, come back and we can discuss.


Now you say...
But honestly I was making light of your responses (in my last post) in this thread, not being a badass.





My orginal post was on the first page.

I thought that the Doritos thing was funny, I was kidding, if it offended you for some reason then I can't help you. Sorry. To me, it was far from being a badass. Maybe I should have used smilies- but then again, I thought it was obvious that it was not malicous.

LOL, did you have a bad experience with Doritos when you were younger or something? Maybe you didn't chew one enough and one of the little corners scraped your throat? :D:D(That's a little badass, again. Please don't let this upset you.)

And you are totally off topic from this thread as you were bitching about earlier.

What is your opinion then? Tell me why you have a problem with the procedure in the article.

[NewHummerGuy]

I dont care one bit what the government does as far as these types of things go.

If you have nothing to hide then who gives a shlt. Look at my credit records, bank statements, and whatever else. As long as they dont resort to anal cavity searches at the airport I could really care less. If it in any way increases americans safety then by all means do whatever you want.

IMO those who bitch and complain about these types of things are the ones who should be investigated.

Hmmmmmm, maybe the ACLU should be investigated.

[DennisAJC]

I think our friend bparker is just being paranoid. There are no badasses here! And if there were any, they have been chased off or forced through a radical attitude ajustment procedural upgrade.

And no bparker! It's not brainwashing by our government! LOL! I love everyone!




The Doritos comment was funny and obviously a joke. Nobody here is picking on you bparker so do not feel alone and cornered. We are here to support you.:)

[bparker]

lol you are probably right about those who complain about it. I just cant find the link between the need to see them and terrorism. I am all for doing whaterver it takes within reason but I would like to at least understand "why" "Govt" needs to overstep certian laws to achieve thier goal.

in this case its so trivial its funny to me

I would think the saying "cant see the forest for the trees" applies to many here.

I dont care one bit what the government does as far as these types of things go.

If you have nothing to hide then who gives a shlt. Look at my credit records, bank statements, and whatever else. As long as they dont resort to anal cavity searches at the airport I could really care less. If it in any way increases americans safety then by all means do whatever you want.

IMO those who bitch and complain about these types of things are the ones who should be investigated.

Hmmmmmm, maybe the ACLU should be investigated.

[DennisAJC]

OMG!!!! bparker!!!! LOL!!!! LOL!!!! LOL!!!!

Are you a Jehovah Witness??? So persistent. So bent on making others see your way. Just banging away at them doors! It's cute! Like my 3 year old banging away at his drums in defiance when I tell him it's bedtime!

You go my friend!:perfect10s:

[bparker]

Dennis, i entirely appreciate your cheeky political position here but the truth here is "its all fun and game until someone gets hurt" and in my time on this forum when the jokes start is always someone with a ({}) that gets hurt. And then all the powers that can be mustered come down on said joker to show him he has no right to joke with a ({}) that way and he usually ends up banned.

[DennisAJC]

My older version supported your ideals bparker, so I'm very sympathetic to your pleas.

But since my upgrade, I've seen the light! There is no conspiracy.


Just friends, good-times and noodle salad.

[bparker]

Nope, that style of religion is not my cup of tea. If you find me simply replying to a poster in sake of conversation applicable to the thread topic unlike yours to be "So persistent. So bent on making others see your way. Just banging away at them doors! It's cute! Like my 3 year old banging away at his drums in defiance when I tell him it's bedtime!" - well thats your opinion.

Have a nice day =D

OMG!!!! bparker!!!! LOL!!!! LOL!!!! LOL!!!!

Are you a Jehovah Witness??? So persistent. So bent on making others see your way. Just banging away at them doors! It's cute! Like my 3 year old banging away at his drums in defiance when I tell him it's bedtime!

[SnakeH2]

My older version supported your ideals bparker, so I'm very sympathetic to your pleas.

But since my upgrade, I've seen the light! There is no conspiracy.


Just friends, good-times and noodle salad.

Upgrade 6.0????:rolleyes:


I sense imposter. Sure you're not someone's AE?? If that's possible...:D

[h2co-pilot]

ATTN ATTN:

bparker is enlightened and we all are morons. He sees the forest for the trees. Please do not post your opinion as he will LOL at you.

That is all.

[bparker]

Ahh now I get it, my appologies =)

Now I understand how forums work - "if I enter a thread and cant post something relative or usefull, I might as well attack someone"

[dеiтайожни]

Do they think we are so stupid to believe that our govt needs the ability to track credit records of suspected terrorist in the middle east?
I still cant think of a reason they need to look at our credit...


Are you implying that we are all suspected terrorists in the middle east? If you don't want them looking through your credit records, don't be a suspected terrorist from the middle east. Nuff said!

[h2co-pilot]

Ahh now I get it, my appologies =)

Now I understand how forums work - "if I enter a thread and cant post something relative or usefull, I might as well attack someone"

That's exactly what you did.

Did you read my first post or the thread? I gave an explanation on why "hundreds" are being data mined and my opinion that it is effective and relatively harmless to Americans. You kept on asking "why they are doing it. I don't understand. WTF? You missed the point." to almost every post made.

You have been so determined to "lol" and point out that the point was missed. However you have yet to tell us what exactly you think the point is.

It seems

A.)you didn't interpret the article correctly or

B.)you have an explanation on why exactly you think it is wrong and what the true point is (so to speak) and you are just heckling until you come out with your opinion on why it is wrong.

Very confusing and pointless so far.

[MarineHawk]

ROFL again... how many terroist do you think are here in the USA using credit to buy things?

Amazing...

I see your point: http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/05/22/hijack.paper.trail/

Amazing, huh?

Actually alot of people use cash abroad. Its mostly americans who use credit cards.

WTF? Do you really believe that? Seriously? Or did you just make that up to try to defend your position? In the last year, during my three long trips there, I've seen more than a hundred arabs checking into the Jeddah Intercontinental. All credit. No cash. Not once. Also mostly credit cards at the Tahlia street shopping malls there. I won't even go into the heavy credit card use in Europe.

[bparker]

Roger that but the missing link I cant establish between the two is this:

Our credit reporting system is soley based and tracked for citizens of the USA and those that have a SSN# (green card holders, etc). Right? Now, having said that:

99.9% of Terrorism is financed by black market activities outside the USA none of which you will find in our Credit Reporting system here in the USA. If you are late paying your drug or arms dealer he can not report you to any of our 3 credit reporting agencies. He has other means of getting you to pay ;)

99.9% of Terrorists are not citizens of the USA. They do not have a SSN# to report under to keep track of or any sort of credit history here in the USA.

So to me, it seems very silly to need to go looking into our credit records to find something that we know isnt there.

[NewHummerGuy]

Investigators have traced 27 credit cards to the 19 men who hijacked four airliners and crashed them into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and a Pennsylvania field, killing thousands, the source said.


Hmmmmmmmmmmm, thats enough evidence for me. Like I said. If you have nothing to hide then who gives a shlt. So what if they see you got 10 hookers in Vegas one weekend or bought a pocket pu$$y at the local adult superstore. They aint looking for you and wont give a crap. Let them snoop all they want.

But its painfully OBVIOUS terrorist use credit cards.


Thanks Hawk:)

[bparker]

Read you link and i belive you are making the point again about credit card use. Which is not what we are talking about. Credit History.
I see your point: http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/05/22/hijack.paper.trail/

Amazing, huh?


No, most of my inlaws and friends are from eastern europe and they do not use credit cards like we do here. Again this is not what we are talking about but yea, I travel there alot, in fact I leave this Thursday to go visit and will be there for 3 weeks. I usually go once or twice a year.
WTF? Do you really believe that? Seriously? Or did you just make that up to try to defend your position? In the last year, during my three long trips there, I've seen more than a hundred arabs checking into the Jeddah Intercontinental. All credit. No cash. Not once. Also mostly credit cards at the Tahlia street shopping malls there. I won't even go into the heavy credit card use in Europe.

[NewHummerGuy]

"So to me, it seems very silly to need to go looking into our credit records to find something that we know isnt there."

Jesus bparker. Are you hiding something you are afraid will be found???????

If not then who cares

[bparker]

Holy $hit for the love of gawd alah and whom ever else we can put here.

The article was not about C R E D I T C A R D S it was about your C R E D I T H I S T O R Y.

hahahahahaha

[bparker]

Thats the whole point for me.. there is nothing there to see so why make a law to see it? Thats why it was funny.. and to think we are so stupid to name it "in the acts of terrorism we need to do this" is just even more funny.

I guess "we" really are to a point of "paranoia" - holy sheet I see I am the very evident minority here and just tuning in.

"So to me, it seems very silly to need to go looking into our credit records to find something that we know isnt there."

Jesus bparker. Are you hiding something you are afraid will be found???????

If not then who cares

[MarineHawk]

I don't know about your 99.99999% cites. That sounds made up too.

I'm not an expert on this, but I imagine 49.999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of foreign terrorist have some credit history here: http://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/creditcard.html
I seriously doubt that any reasonably intelligent foreigner would be using a Yemeni credit card in the U.S. at this point.

Also, maybe the credit reports help with this kind of thing:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30347

99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 999999999999% of all terrorists are not in Eastern Europe.

[DennisAJC]

Good times & noddle salad!:)

[bparker]

I surrender - I give in - lets just let govt and any police offical do what ever they want to us without any question as to why they want to do it.

Holy fawk I thought I would never see the day where the citizens were asking for less freedom.

Ok, I am on the bus now. Fuk it let them do what ever they want I wont ask "WHY" again.

hahahahaha :beerchug:

[bparker]

ha! get your finger out of your nose Dennis you might need that..

Good times & noddle salad!:)

[bparker]

Well maybe thats the link I dont understand.

Maybe our creditors are now offering credit so freely to anyone here and abroad with or without a SSN# that is where the link is established.

But ya my 99.99999 estimate is not fact =)

I don't know about your 99.99999% cites. That sounds made up too.

I'm not an expert on this, but I imagine 49.999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of foreign terrorist have some credit history here: http://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/creditcard.html
I seriously doubt that any reasonably intelligent foreigner would be using a Yemeni credit card in the U.S. at this point.

Also, maybe the credit reports help with this kind of thing:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30347

99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 999999999999% of all terrorists are not in Eastern Europe.

[h2co-pilot]

I surrender - I give in - lets just let govt and any police offical do what ever they want to us without any question as to why they want to do it.

Holy fawk I thought I would never see the day where the citizens were asking for less freedom.

Ok, I am on the bus now. Fuk it let them do what ever they want I wont ask "WHY" again.

hahahahaha :beerchug:

What is the difference between saying credit cards and credit history exactly? They aren't looking at the plastic itself. The article says, It's all about records- again I'll quote:

The Pentagon and to a lesser extent the CIA have been using a little-known power to look at the banking and credit records of hundreds of Americans and others suspected of terrorism or espionage within the United States, officials said Saturday.


Records> Records that track movement and financial sponsors of cells and individuals infiltrated in our country and abroad with very bad intentions.

What does credit history mean to you exactly?

No matter that your purchases, habits and history is well documented and reviewed by the institutions that will it.

I am grateful for our offensive defense and the innovation that has taken place to do just that.

IMHO, the scenario of "Why?" with the conclusion "It's wrong." Without a shred of knowledge on the subject or any "solution" to the supposed wrong doing for the sake of the country has become an all too familiar route with certain individuals and parties. This is unfortunate.

[DennisAJC]

bparker,

You've always known my position on governments and I've found some of your topics interesting, I might of been swinging along side. What some of us don't get is which side are you on? You're either swinging from one end to the other. That is the reason members here are not taking you seriously anymore.

And don't flake out so easily when people disagree!:giggling:


But I think you're special!!!!! :clapping:

[bparker]

Ahh, the difference would be (to me) would be Credit and Banking History in this case would be reffering the Credit Reporting institutions for lines of credit, (secured and unsecured) loans, business loans, propery loans pretty much anything with a large "credit line" associated with it that would not show as a "credit transaction" and to how well we have handeled those lines of credit. Thats about all I can think of that the 3 agencies" could offer up as far as info.

Where as, credit cards are merely a financial transaction when you make a purchase which is already tracked and reported on. We have given "the govt" lawful access to this data years ago.

What is the difference between saying credit cards and credit history exactly?

[bparker]

I am on neither side. I just like to understand why? And I personally feel to use the line in the name of terror we need to do this is so gay and over played in this case. Not in every case though, some things they have done are (I feel) for the greater good.

So, I was hoping someone could come along and connect the dots with a reasonable explination. But all I got was a lousy Doritios T-Shirt..... :D

bparker,

What some of us don't get is which side are you on? You're either swinging from one end to the other.

[MarineHawk]

Holy fawk I thought I would never see the day where the citizens were asking for less freedom.


I personally have not, and I do not know anyone who has, lost any freedoms here. What ?freedoms? have we lost? The ?we don?t know how much we?ve lost, but it might be tremendous if only we knew? theory just seems ludicrous to me after my recent trips. People there (and the Saudi populous has a lot more freedoms than much of the world) KNOW they aren?t free because they cannot do a lot of the basic things we do every day (e.g., drinking, watching women drive, attending a non-Muslim church, accessing large portions of the Internet). I suspect if you don?t even know that your freedoms have been infringed, you probably haven?t lost a lot in the grand scheme, especially in wartime. The mere suspicion that someone might look at your library card or credit history, compared to the rigid and punitive limitations imposed on much of the world?s populous seems beyond negligible to me, especially in wartime. Between Zacarias Moussaoui?s August 16, 2001 arrest and September 11, we did not search his laptop computer out of respect for his rights. Wouldn?t want to do that, it might infringe on a civil liberty. Never mind what the families of the 3,000 who died as a consequence might think about that.

[h2co-pilot]

Ahh, the difference would be (to me) would be Credit and Banking History in this case would be reffering the Credit Reporting institutions for lines of credit, (secured and unsecured) loans, business loans, propery loans pretty much anything with a large "credit line" associated with it that would not show as a "credit transaction".

Where as, credit cards are merely a financial transaction when you make a purchase which is already tracked and reported on. We have given "the govt" lawful access to this data years ago.

Okay, so I see what you mean.

But the requests are for suspected people only and if they are submitted a subpeona- those suspects would be onto the investigation itself and the operation would be botched on that individual.

Where as before an investigative agency would let you know prior to an investigation via subpeona.

Where as you or me as an individual would have one look at this 'history' if we were to apply for a loan of some sort.

I can see where, yes, allowing an agency to view records without your knowledge or subpeona can be viewed as a threat to some with privacy/law issues. The credit card transactions- the same.

It seems harmless to me in this situation, especially if they had the go ahead for the other measures. They could be able to look anyway if they wanted. You would just know about it first.

Why?:

There could be loans for flight school tuition, cars, vans, planes. Paid for by someone else outside the country or obtained with co-signers affiliated with a known terror group. Cash would draw attention, therefore the standard loan/credit and the records would show the trail.

I believe it is more about the sponsorship. The "martyrs" have a free life scholarship for their duties so to speak.

[KenP]

Let's just close our borders, deport ALL muslims, and nuke that damn place.:rant:

OK, that may be a little impracticle. How about some drive-bys. That'll work.:rant:

BTW, bparker is a terrorist.:giggling:

[KenP]

There could be loans for flight school tuition, cars, vans, planes. Paid for by someone else outside the country or obtained with co-signers affiliated with a known terror group. Cash would draw attention, therefore the standard loan/credit and the records would show the trail.True, they want to fit in as best as possible.

[NewHummerGuy]

bparker,

You've always known my position on governments and I've found some of your topics interesting, I might of been swinging along side. What some of us don't get is which side are you on? You're either swinging from one end to the other. That is the reason members here are not taking you seriously anymore.

And don't flake out so easily when people disagree!:giggling:


But I think you're special!!!!! :clapping:



Hmmmm, I dont think I like this new 6.0 version Dennis. If some members wanted to still use the 3.0 are we able?????:fdance:

[bparker]

Amen to that!!

By the way the Coran has a misprint in it. Where it says a martyar will see 70 young virgins in heaven - its a misprint. It meant to say they will see 70 Virginans!! bitches..



Let's just close our borders, deport ALL muslims, and nuke that damn place.:rant:

[DennisAJC]

Hmmmm, I dont think I like this new 6.0 version Dennis. If some members wanted to still use the 3.0 are we able?????:fdance:

My 6.0 upgrade will be going down this friday for a 48 or 72 hour program maintenence.

I will be running the 3.0 version for this weekend.:jump:

[MarineHawk]

Let's just close our borders, deport ALL muslims, and nuke that damn place.:rant:


Yes, but out of compassion, we should do it in this order: (1) nuke that damn place; (2) deport ALL muslims; and (3) close our borders.

[Bully13]

I don't know what you guys are talking about. I installed DennisAJC 1.3

All I'm getting is this...

I like cookies :excited:

[NewHummerGuy]

My 6.0 upgrade will be going down this friday for a 48 or 72 hour program maintenence.

I will be running the 3.0 version for this weekend.:jump:


WOOOOHOOOOOO

I cant wait:jump: :beerchug: :jump:

[KenP]

I don't know what you guys are talking about. I installed DennisAJC 1.3

All I'm getting is this...That beats the hell out of Version 2.6. I keep getting:FAWK OFF!!!

[CO Hummer]

Holy fawk I thought I would never see the day where the citizens were asking for less freedom.

bparker,
Despite your stinky Doritos breath, I completely agree with you.

Everyone has completely thrown out the concept of liberty and freedom in search of a little "security". I put that in qoutes because it's clearly PERCEIVED security and not real.

So....I guess it's pretty much just you, me, and Benjamin Franklin. We should form a club.




Now....back on Topic. Do you think the American Express Gold Card is better than their gold "Rewards Plus" card? Is it worth the extras cost for the Plus version?

[CO Hummer]

I personally have not, and I do not know anyone who has, lost any freedoms here. What ?freedoms? have we lost?

How about "due process"? How about protection from illegal search and seizure?

[bparker]

No way, Amex Blue is the best - ya know the one with the chip inside that secretly videos you havin nasty butt sex and sends it to the govt for everyone at the pentagon to watch on Fridays.. :beerchug:

Now....back on Topic. Do you think the American Express Gold Card is better than their gold "Rewards Plus" card? Is it worth the extras cost for the Plus version?

[SnakeH2]

Interesting/entertaining thread.

What's a pocket pu$$y?

[CO Hummer]

No way, Amex Blue is the best - ya know the one with the chip inside that secretly videos you havin nasty butt sex and sends it to the govt for everyone at the pentagon to watch on Fridays.. :beerchug:

I always wondered why my Blue card had a meatspin hologram on it. I thought it was just buyer protection.

[bparker]

I dont want to get started on this because I know hes a Jar Head that puts his life on the line for us - BUT - when I saw the MP take all the guns away from the private citizens hands INSIDE thier own houses leaving them defenseless against looters when hurricane katrina hit I almost lost it.

How about "due process"? How about protection from illegal search and seizure?

[DennisAJC]

Now we know why you're so worried.:jump:



with the chip inside that secretly videos you havin nasty butt sex


But I definitely agree with you on some points. They give you reasons why, but it feels like a road towards dictatorship.

But I still love everyone!

[KenP]

How about "due process"? How about protection from illegal search and seizure?CO Hummer is a terrorist! (tags: radical, muslim, bomb, alf, elf, peta, fertilizer, plane, lessons, jihad, cleric, fear, poppy, WTC, gecko, camel jockey, infidel, UBL, dirty, uranium, iraq, quran, butt sex, afganistan, ied):giggling:

I have no problems with the Gov't checking people out. I've got nothing to hide.:dancingbanana:

[DennisAJC]

I have no problems with the Gov't checking people out. I've got nothing to hide.:dancingbanana:

I peeked under your matress when I stayed there last year.:shhh: :p :jump:

[bparker]

You know all DennisAJC apps have spyware hidden in them that will download porn all day when you are at work and then send it to him at night when you are sleeping.

I don't know what you guys are talking about. I installed DennisAJC 1.3

[MarineHawk]

How about "due process"? How about protection from illegal search and seizure?

I just don't see those rights as I understand them to have been violated.

4th amend't says: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

I'm just not aware of any unreasonable searches. Maybe there have been some. I just can't fathom how we would have defeated some of the powerful enemies we conquered in the past, such as the Nazis or Imperial Japan, if we had been complaining about the government looking at our library cards. In that situation, the government was rationing basic necessities and (as was necessary) drafting and forcing young men out of their private lives in the MILLIONS to don a uniform and risk, and in 400,000 cases, lose their lives. It seems that worring about the government looking at credit reports seem so, so insignificant in comparison - such a minor intrusion, if there is any chance it could help us defeat our enemies or save any of the lives of our civiliians or troops.

[MarineHawk]

I dont want to get started on this because I know hes a Jar Head that puts his life on the line for us - BUT - when I saw the MP take all the guns away from the private citizens hands INSIDE thier own houses leaving them defenseless against looters when hurricane katrina hit I almost lost it.

I agree with you there. I'm just talking about the anti-terror-related snooping.

[bparker]

Since you like links :D

Second paragraph:
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/lott200603210744.asp

I just don't see those rights as I understand them to have been violated.

4th amend't says: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

I'm just not aware of any unreasonable searches. Maybe there have been some. I just can't fathom how we would have defeated some of the powerful enemies we conquered in the past, such as the Nazis or Imperial Japan, if we had been complaining about the government looking at our library cards. In that situation, the government was rationing basic necessities and (as was necessary) drafting and forcing young men out of their private lives in the MILLIONS to don a uniform and risk, and in 400,000 cases, lose their lives. It seems that worring about the government looking at credit reports seem so, so insignificant in comparison - such a minor intrusion, if there is any chance it could help us defeat our enemies or save any of the lives of our civiliians or troops.

[bparker]

Yep, as lung as wares "secure" lettem dew wut they wunt!

[CO Hummer]

I just don't see those rights as I understand them to have been violated.

4th amend't says: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

I'm just not aware of any unreasonable searches. Maybe there have been some. I just can't fathom how we would have defeated some of the powerful enemies we conquered in the past, such as the Nazis or Imperial Japan, if we had been complaining about the government looking at our library cards. In that situation, the government was rationing basic necessities and (as was necessary) drafting and forcing young men out of their private lives in the MILLIONS to don a uniform and risk, and in 400,000 cases, lose their lives. It seems that worring about the government looking at credit reports seem so, so insignificant in comparison - such a minor intrusion, if there is any chance it could help us defeat our enemies or save any of the lives of our civiliians or troops.

Don't argue with me. Take it to the founding fathers. ;)

A lot of what they established is totally lost. But heck, we have a Starbucks on every corner so it can't be that bad, right?

[bparker]

And dont forget the illegal mexicants on every corner we really need them too.

Don't argue with me. Take it to the founding fathers. ;)

A lot of what they established is totally lost. But heck, we have a Starbucks on every corner so it can't be that bad, right?

[CO Hummer]

Yep, as lung as wares "secure" lettem dew wut they wunt!


Reminds of a chat a had with a guy in the airline industry while at DFW. He was in town to give a lecture. The theme of his lecture was the myth of airline security. He went into details about a test they ran where they tried to smuggling illegal objects past the TSA.

Attempts: 21
Successfully Smuggled in: 21.

Nice. But hey, at least we're "secure"!

[MarineHawk]

Don't argue with me. Take it to the founding fathers. ;)

A lot of what they established is totally lost. But heck, we have a Starbucks on every corner so it can't be that bad, right?

I hate Starbucks because of their gun control contributions. We need to start a new chain of NRA cafes.;)

In case it's at issue, to justify the WWII comparison, one thing that is important to me is that, in WWII, our enemies were pretty much out in the open. Our intellegence efforts were important and, greatfully, effective, but we were basically fighting our enemies' carriers, battleships, and the thousands of tanks and aircraft their millions of troops fielded against us. Our current enemies have little or no power without the benefit of remaining hidden. They cannot possibly hope to harm us in the open. We win, if at all, by uncovering them. That's why our efforts to uncover them is more imprtant now than in any conflict we have ever faced.

[CO Hummer]

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

I agree Ben. You should tell this to Marinehawk!

[MarineHawk]

Second paragraph:
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/lott200603210744.asp


I agree. I just don't think that our government's excess in that situation translates to all others.

[Bully13]

I hate Starbucks because of their gun control contributions. We need to start a new chain of NRA cafes.;)


AHOY Cafe?

[DennisAJC]

AHOY Cafe?



AAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!:jump:

[MarineHawk]

I agree Ben. You should tell this to Marinehawk!

I agree too Ben. As I suggested in my comments about the Saudis, I just think of essential liberties as things like the ability to, as we are doing here, criticize our government and also things like the protections against unreasonable searches; the ability to practice or criticize whatever religion we want; due process; etc ... I just don't think Ben was characterizing the right to not have your credit report looked at as an "Essential Liberty." I'm pretty sure he was talking about serious infringements on essential rights. I imagine Ben would not go for general martial law and suspension of the 1st and 4th amendments to fight this war. I doubt he'd care if someone looked as his or anyone's credit history.

[CO Hummer]

I just don't think Ben was characterizing the right to not have your credit report looked at as an "Essential Liberty."

I agree with you. I'm not convinced that protection of credit information is an essential liberty.

HOWEVER........

All would, on paper, agree that we should not give up "essential liberties". But I think bparker's idea here is that no one asks the question about what an "essential liberty" is. The government is given unquestioned trust and a blank checkbook to do whatever it wants. All you have to do is whisper "in the interest of national security" and everyone is expected to shut their mouth and accept whatever they do.

[MarineHawk]

"This Court has gone far toward accepting the doctrine that civil liberty means the removal of all restraints from these crowds and that all local attempts to maintain order are impairments of the liberty of the citizen. The choice is not between order and liberty. It is between liberty with order and anarchy without either. There is danger that, if the Court does not temper its doctrinaire logic with a little practical wisdom, it will convert the constitutional Bill of Rights into a suicide pact."

U.S. Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson - Terminiello v. Chicago, 1949.

[MarineHawk]

I agree with you. I'm not convinced that protection of credit information is an essential liberty.

HOWEVER........

All would, on paper, agree that we should not give up "essential liberties". But I think bparker's idea here is that no one asks the question about what an "essential liberty" is. The government is given unquestioned trust and a blank checkbook to do whatever it wants. All you have to do is whisper "in the interest of national security" and everyone is expected to shut their mouth and accept whatever they do.

I understand your thinking. Maybe some of that is going on. I think we just see things from different perspectives. You seem to see more unreasonable accepting than complaining. I see more unreasonable complaining than accepting. I guess the truth may be subjective on that one.

[h2co-pilot]

So......is the government taking away your liberties or are the terrorists?

When we fought the Nazis, the Japanese- hell way back, even the Mongols had a way of identifying themselves. This is new times. We are fighting a "predator" that blends in. Cowards. Virus. We have to put a little antibiotics in our blood. BFD.

This isn't going to end anytime soon. Religous wars have been fought for centuries.

[CO Hummer]

So......is the government taking away your liberties or are the terrorists?

Why do these have to be mutally exclusive? My answer would be "BOTH".

[h2co-pilot]

Why do these have to be mutally exclusive? My answer would be "BOTH".

Yes, however the government's is reactive to the terrorism.

Let's again ask this question. Financial data mining has been proven effective in the UK and (if the NY Times doesn't spill it first) most likely helping our Homeland security track specific cells.

What are the alternatives to tracking and or 'spying' on these potential threats? More men/tax moneys? Armed watchmen? Cameras? Liberties will be taken regardless.

Do we wait for something to happen?

[MarineHawk]

Part of my perspective comes from lack of cynicism on this issue and my belief that I have seen nothing to indicate that the government is looking at things like credit histories for anything other than the stated purpose - to get the bad guys. I have seen nothing to indicate that some kind of McCarthyistic abuse is going on here. If I saw anything to indicate that Condaleeza was looking at CO Hummer's credit histories to see what type of Armenian porn was on his computer, then I would be pissed - just like I was at the brief disarming of the New Orleans citizens. I just haven't seen it. I won't give up my right to: carry a gun; to attend church; to criticize Hillary Clinton; to have big tires; to be able to write my thoughts freely on Elcova; to not have police coming into my home without cause; etc... No one has aksed me to give those things up. I have seen no reasonable suggestion that the police are looking at my credit history so that they can screw with me. If they need to have access to my credit history so that they can also have access to the bad guys', I'm all for it.

[CO Hummer]

Yes, however the government's is reactive to the terrorism.

Let's again ask this question. Financial data mining has been proven effective in the UK and (if the NY Times doesn't spill it first) most likely helping our Homeland security track specific cells.

What are the alternatives?

I'm not arguing that data mining is wrong. I haven't given it a lot of thought so I'm not convicted either way.

But the logic in your arguement says that "if it helps convict terrorists, then it's ok".. That is a dangerous, pragmatic argument. If you push that logic to is conclusion - anything is justified as long as it gets results. You know where that can go. That's the point here.

[h2co-pilot]

Part of my perspective comes from lack of cynicism on this issue and my belief that I have seen nothing to indicate that the government is looking at things like credit histories for anything other than the stated purpose - to get the bad guys. I have seen nothing to indicate that some kind of McCarthyistic abuse is going on here. If I saw anything to indicate that Condaleeza was looking at CO Hummer's credit histories to see what type of Armenian porn was on his computer, then I would be pissed - just like I was at the brief disarming of the New Orleans citizens. I just haven't seen it. I won't give up my right to: carry a gun; to attend church; to criticize Hillary Clinton; to have big tires; to be able to write my thoughts freely on Elcova; to not have police coming into my home without cause; etc... No one has aksed me to give those things up. I have seen no reasonable suggestion that the police are looking at my credit history so that they can screw with me. If they need to have access to my credit history so that they can also have access to the bad guys', I'm all for it.

Well said.

The question to those who feel that essential liberties have been taken away. What exactly has been taken from you? How is your life different from before these provisions?

[CO Hummer]

If they need to have access to my credit history so that they can also have access to the bad guys', I'm all for it.

But the point is - that's YOUR position. Because you don't have a problem with it - neither should anyone else, right? Hello, socialist! Just get 51% of the people to agree with you and make it so!

[CO Hummer]

Part of my perspective comes from lack of cynicism on this issue and my belief that I have seen nothing to indicate that the government is looking at things like credit histories for anything other than the stated purpose - to get the bad guys.

Man I love this logic: "If I haven't seen bad things happen, then they must not be happening".


I'm assumming you don't get daily personal briefings from the intelligence committee, NSA, CIA, FBI, Homeland security, KenP, etc.

[MarineHawk]

But the point is - that's YOUR position. Because you don't have a problem with it - neither should anyone else, right? Hello, socialist! Just get 51% of the people to agree with you and make it so!

Yes. But you can't conversely say that, because a few people dislike what most (including the S. Ct.) consider appropriate measures to stop terrorism, that they should not be implemented.

Another thinng that increases my comfort here is that there are numerous people from the opposition party in the DHS (a fairly high-level one lives across the street from me). These people tend to leak everything that even remotely casts a shadow on the Bush administration. If they were implementing anti-terror measures as a pretext to go after your Armenian porn (deny it if you will ;) ), Pelosi would be making a prime-time speech about it tonight. Hopefully, they would conceal your identity to protect the innocent. We really do have pretty good checks against that type of thing IMO.

[MarineHawk]

Man I love this logic: "If I haven't seen bad things happen, then they must not be happening".
I'm assumming you don't get daily personal briefings from the intelligence committee, NSA, CIA, FBI, Homeland security, KenP, etc.

This is a clear example of opposing perspectives. I think we would say the flawed logic is that "If I haven't seen bad things happen, then they must ... be happening." With no trace of any evidence of abuse, I can't get worried.

[CO Hummer]

This is a clear example of opposing perspectives. I think we would say the flawed logic is that "If I haven't seen bad things happen, then they must ... be happening." With no trace of any evidence of abuse, I can't get worried.

OK, help me out on this. You are a Marine, right? Isn't one of the fundamentals that you be prepared for the possibility of "bad things" happening even if you hadn't seen them happen?

That's EXACTLY what the founding fathers did when they created safeguards.

For you to say "With no trace of any evidence of abuse, I can't get worried." is unexpected.

[MarineHawk]

OK, help me out on this. You are a Marine, right? Isn't one of the fundamentals that you be prepared for the possibility of "bad things" happening even if you hadn't seen them happen?

That's EXACTLY what the founding fathers did when they created safeguards.

For you to say "With no trace of any evidence of abuse, I can't get worried." is unexpected.

I think a lot of this boils down to our beliefs on (1) certain presumptions and (2) the impact in context of the questioned policies.

(1) You seem to believe that, if the government is in a position to do harm, harm is done. I can't say that you are wrong; only that I disagree. I think that the government will invariiably be in a position to do harm to us all. I only have a problem when they actually do harm. For example, I do not think they should disband the National Guard just because, if an improper order is issued, they might destroy my house and kill my family with a dozen 155 mm artillery rounds. Yet, if they start employing artillery barages against our citizenry's households, I'd express some serious concerns.

(2) I just don't think the Founding Fathers issued safeguards against the government scrutinizing information like our credit histories, which are I think fairly public anyway, especially in wartime. It's just not like quartering soldiers in time of peace in violation of Amendment III to me.

I seriously would be very displeased if the government went over the line. I just haven't seen it, and I'm not going to assume that they are without any single fact (which, see above, I think would come to light if true) in support of this. On the contrary, to me, the gov't seems to be doing a remarkably difficult job of protecting us against attacks.

[KenP]

HEY!! I don't share all my info with everyone. Outline of todays' briefing:

Tuesday's Homeland Security Briefing
Press Briefing by Director of the Office of Homeland Security, Governor Tom Ridge; Director of Emergency Environmental Health Service, CDC, Dr. Pat Meehan; Deputy Postmaster General John Nolan; National Institution of Health, Dr. Anthony Fauci; Director of all Things Great, KenP
The James S. Brady Briefing Room


http://www.whitehouse.gov/images/tv.gif View the Briefing (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011030-3.html#) View the Briefing (http://www.elcovaforums.com/news/releases/2001/10/20011030-3.v.html)
http://www.whitehouse.gov/images/listen.gif Listen to the Briefing (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011030-3.a.ram)

Alert announced by the FBI (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011030-3.html#FBI-Alert)
Credible information received from multiple sources (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011030-3.html#Credibility-Info1)
Type of information received, credible vs. non-credible (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011030-3.html#Credibility-Info2)
Credibility of most recent threat compared to first threat (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011030-3.html#Credibility-Info3)
Info. provided to law enforcement agencies, 18,000 entities (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011030-3.html#Info-provided-law-enf)
One war, two battlefields (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011030-3.html#Battlefields-two)
War to continue for indefinite period of time (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011030-3.html#War-timeframe)
Homeland Security Council meeting review (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011030-3.html#HSC-Review)

Terrorist tracking task force (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011030-3.html#HSC-Review2)
Meeting with Canadian, Mexican officials (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011030-3.html#HSC-Review3)
Anthrax situation, update (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011030-3.html#Anthrax-update)

New York (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011030-3.html#Anthrax-update-NY)
Source of anthrax (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011030-3.html#Anthrax-update-NY2)
Morgan facility in New York to remain open (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011030-3.html#Anthrax-update-NY3)
New Jersey (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011030-3.html#Anthrax-update-NJ)
Washington, D.C. (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011030-3.html#Anthrax-update-DC)

Brentwood postal workers on antibiotics (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011030-3.html#Anthrax-update-DC2)
Environmental testing, Friendship, Dulles (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011030-3.html#Anthrax-update-DC3)
Environmental testing, Cohen Building (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011030-3.html#Anthrax-update-DC4)

Alleged disconnect in issuance of warning, urge for normality (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011030-3.html#Alleged-Disconnect)
Investigation status, cross-contamination, other theories (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011030-3.html#Investig-status)

Risk to general public of contaminated mail (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011030-3.html#Investig-status2)
Testing of private residences (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011030-3.html#Investig-status3)
Criteria for anthrax "outbreak" (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011030-3.html#Anthrax-criteria)10:40 A.M. EST
Director KenP: Good morning again. Welcome to what I think is becoming a daily briefing of the Office of Homeland Security. It's good to be with you again this morning. Obviously, there are a few items on the radar that we'll be discussing this morning, some you're already aware of, others you might not be. First, I'd like to talk a little bit about the alert the FBI announced last evening....

[DennisAJC]

OMG!!!! There's blood in my booger!

[bparker]

roflmfao see I told ya... :giggling:

OMG!!!! There's blood in my booger!

[MarineHawk]

You are a Marine, right?

FWIW, against the cliche, I do consider myself a former Marine - partly because I don't think it's fair to imply that I am still in the same class with the active duty heroes doing the difficult stuff now.

[KenP]

The basis of a democratic state is liberty; which, according to the common opinion of men, can only be enjoyed in such a state; this they affirm to be the great end of every democracy. One principle of liberty is for all to rule and be ruled in turn, and indeed democratic justice is the application of numerical not proportionate equality; whence it follows that the majority must be supreme, and that whatever the majority approve must be the end and the just. Every citizen, it is said, must have equality, and therefore in a democracy the poor have more power than the rich, because there are more of them, and the will of the majority is supreme. This, then, is one note of liberty which all democrats affirm to be the principle of their state. Another is that a man should live as he likes. This, they say, is the privilege of a freeman, since, on the other hand, not to live as a man likes is the mark of a slave. This is the second characteristic of democracy, whence has arisen the claim of men to be ruled by none, if possible, or, if this is impossible, to rule and be ruled in turns; and so it contributes to the freedom based upon equality.

[MarineHawk]

The basis of a democratic state is liberty; which, according to the common opinion of men, can only be enjoyed in such a state; this they affirm to be the great end of every democracy. One principle of liberty is for all to rule and be ruled in turn, and indeed democratic justice is the application of numerical not proportionate equality; whence it follows that the majority must be supreme, and that whatever the majority approve must be the end and the just. Every citizen, it is said, must have equality, and therefore in a democracy the poor have more power than the rich, because there are more of them, and the will of the majority is supreme. This, then, is one note of liberty which all democrats affirm to be the principle of their state. Another is that a man should live as he likes. This, they say, is the privilege of a freeman, since, on the other hand, not to live as a man likes is the mark of a slave. This is the second characteristic of democracy, whence has arisen the claim of men to be ruled by none, if possible, or, if this is impossible, to rule and be ruled in turns; and so it contributes to the freedom based upon equality.

You sound very Greek today.

[CO Hummer]

whence

Kenny, I'm impressed at the expansion of your vocabulary. Or... did you mean to type "whelp". :D

[KenP]

You sound very Greek today.Well, I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night. OH, oh, I also had a Greek salad the other day.:jump:

[CO Hummer]

The basis of a democratic state is liberty; which, according to the common opinion of men, can only be enjoyed in such a state; this they affirm to be the great end of every democracy. One principle of liberty is for all to rule and be ruled in turn, and indeed democratic justice is the application of numerical not proportionate equality; whence it follows that the majority must be supreme, and that whatever the majority approve must be the end and the just. Every citizen, it is said, must have equality, and therefore in a democracy the poor have more power than the rich, because there are more of them, and the will of the majority is supreme. This, then, is one note of liberty which all democrats affirm to be the principle of their state. Another is that a man should live as he likes. This, they say, is the privilege of a freeman, since, on the other hand, not to live as a man likes is the mark of a slave. This is the second characteristic of democracy, whence has arisen the claim of men to be ruled by none, if possible, or, if this is impossible, to rule and be ruled in turns; and so it contributes to the freedom based upon equality.

I remember Steve-SanJose saying the same thing. :giggling: :giggling:

[KenP]

Kenny, I'm impressed at the expansion of your vocabulary. Or... did you mean to type "whelp". :DShhhh, you make me wince.

[CO Hummer]

Shhhh, you make me wince.

Sorry about that. I don't mean to be rude, whenceforth I should offend you.

[MarineHawk]

Well, I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night. OH, oh, I also had a Greek salad the other day.:jump:
Θεωρούμε ότι το Πανεπιστήμιο δεν είναι αγωγός που οδηγεί αυτόματα στην απόκτηση του πτυχίου, με την απομνημόνευση ετοιμοπαράδοτων γνώσεων, και ότι δεν πρέπει να ανέχεται την πνευματική τυποποίηση!!!!!!!!!!

Είναι χώρος ελεύθερης διακίνησης ιδεών, που καλλιεργεί την επιστημονική πολυφωνία, και την ανάπτυξη κριτικής και αναλυτικής σκέψης, μέσα από συνεχή σχεδιασμό και δυναμική προσπάθεια. Η γνώση κατακτάται με πληρότητα όταν την αναζητεί κανείς, και όχι όταν του την επιβάλλουν.
Οι αρχές αυτές προσδιορίζουν και την έννοια του Ακαδημαϊκού ασύλου, το οποίο έχει υποστεί στην πράξη πάμπολλες στρεβλώσεις, μία από τις οποίες είναι η ταύτισή του με την άσκηση βίας. Ακαδημαϊκό άσυλο και βία είναι εξ ορισμού έννοιες αντιφατικές. Αλίμονο εάν σε μια δημοκρατία απαιτείται βία για να βιωθεί το ακαδημαϊκό άσυλο. Το άσυλο βρίσκεται στο πνεύμα μας, στην κριτική προσέγγιση, στην ελευθερία του σκέπτεσθαι, στην αναθεώρηση των γνώσεών μας, στην υπεράσπιση των δικαιωμάτων μας, αλλά εξίσου στο σεβασμό του δικαιώματος των άλλων, στη συνθετική επίλυση προβλημάτων, στην αμφισβήτηση. Με έναν λόγο: στην αγάπη για το μυαλό του άλλου. Το άσυλο είναι το πνεύμα μας και η ελευθερία του, η οποία όμως πρέπει να υποκλίνεται πρώτα στο πνεύμα και στην ελευθερία του άλλου.

[h2co-pilot]

Gawd, you guys are serious dorks sometimes.:beerchug:

Yes, we should ask questions. As we did when this subject came in debate 5 or 6 years ago. When something like this passes, I think about it and if I have questions- look further into it. I really put myself in the position of someone working for the sake of our saftey, think of what tools they may need and giving them them those tools. I try to look at the system as a friend and what we our doing together as a country not what the government is doing to or taking away from me.

Our founding fathers put the fundamentals of our government structures down as well as laws and our liberties. I am confident that when something like this has passed it has been thoroughly thought through. (say that 3 times fast.:D) It's hard to imagine that there is some conspiracy among the many elected with so many different viewpoints just passing something with the intention to fuk us over. But yes, as some of you said it's good to question- just don't be a paranoid retard.:D

[NewHummerGuy]

Well, I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night. OH, oh, I also had a Greek guy toss my salad the other day.:jump:


Better:jump:

[xburbman]

The basis of a democratic state is liberty; which, according to the common opinion of men, can only be enjoyed in such a state; this they affirm to be the great end of every democracy. One principle of liberty is for all to rule and be ruled in turn, and indeed democratic justice is the application of numerical not proportionate equality; whence it follows that the majority must be supreme, and that whatever the majority approve must be the end and the just. Every citizen, it is said, must have equality, and therefore in a democracy the poor have more power than the rich, because there are more of them, and the will of the majority is supreme. This, then, is one note of liberty which all democrats affirm to be the principle of their state. Another is that a man should live as he likes. This, they say, is the privilege of a freeman, since, on the other hand, not to live as a man likes is the mark of a slave. This is the second characteristic of democracy, whence has arisen the claim of men to be ruled by none, if possible, or, if this is impossible, to rule and be ruled in turns; and so it contributes to the freedom based upon equality.

Indubitably! Indubitably! Hip Hip Hooray! Jolly Good Show Ole Chap!

BTW: Are those bouncing boooobs that B your avatar on an Italian chick?

[MarineHawk]

Gawd, you guys are serious dorks sometimes.:beerchug:

But yes, as some of you said it's good to question- just don't be a paranoid retard.:D

I think of paranoid retardation as the willingness and ability to be responsible and accountable for our own circumstances and actions in life, and the ability to differentiate our responsibilities from those of others. This is distinct from blaming others and seeing ourselves primarily as the victim of other's behavior, or from maintaining a sense that we are somehow responsible for the happiness and well-being of all those around us. Paranoid retardation arises from a stance of strength and competence; it does not include pronouncements of blame, shame, guilt, or moral inferiority/superiority, as all these are judgments added to the basic condition of responsibility.