BRC in Depth

[HummBebe]

I called BRC this morning, and spoke with a gentleman who after a few questions gave me the phone number to the Executive Director of BRC, Greg Mumm.

They pointed out to me the BRC's 990 form, which states exactly where there donations come from and the exact dollar amount. It is an IRS form.

http://www.sharetrails.org/files/taxes/05F990.pdf

BRC's focus is Land Use and Access issues for the Offroad Community. 75% or their total income comes soley from membership donations.

I also found a few others:

Sierra Club: http://www.activistcash.com/organization_financials.cfm/oid/194

Wilderness Society: http://www.wilderness.org/Library/Documents/upload/TWS-2004-IRSForm990.pdf

Defenders of Wildlife: http://www.defenders.org/about/2005990.pdf

Earth Justice: http://partners.guidestar.org/controller/searchResults.gs?action_gsReport=1&partner=networkforgood&ein=94-1730465

National Resouce Defense Fund: http://www.activistcash.com/organization_financials.cfm/oid/19

Center for Biological Diversity: http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/aboutus/CBD-2005-990.pdf

I also invited him to come and speak with us regarding the position of the BRC, it's focus and contributors.

Thanks, Beebs

[KenP]

So this is wrong? They've completely changed? Done a 180 and have abandonded their roots? Abandonded their donors?
http://www.uspirg.org/While the Blue Ribbon Coalition claims to be a grassroots groups representing the individual off-road vehicle user concerned about recreation on public lands, this report found that the coalition is closely tied to the timber, mining, and oil and gas industry as well as off-road vehicle manufacturers and dealers. Far from being a grassroots organization simply advancing an agenda of access to public lands for dirt bikes and all-terrain vehicles, this report documents how the Blue Ribbon Coalition is working hand-in-hand with resource extractive industries to keep our national forests open to logging, mining, oil and gas exploration and other destructive activities that are incompatible with recreational usesFor the record, I want land opened for "resource extracting". We, as a Nation, need to be more self-sufficient.

[HummBebe]

Posted in the other thread:
http://www.elcovaforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27809&page=2

And the direct link to their site where it is posted there:
http://www.sharetrails.org/index.cfm?page=14

[KenP]

Posted in the other thread:
http://www.elcovaforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27809&page=2

And the direct link to their site where it is posted there:
http://www.sharetrails.org/index.cfm?page=14That's great to see and I'll admit that maybe all the other talk is wrong.

Thanks J.

However, I'd still like to see the top twenty corporate and individual donors, with amounts given, before I concede 100% that so much of what I've read about them is wrong. It's all about the stakeholders.

BTW, the president is listed as Jack Welch on the IRS pages you linked to. Is that the Jack Welch who used to be president of GE? The GE that does all this:
http://www.ge.com/company/businesses/index.html

Capital Solutions
Corporate Financial Services
Healthcare Financial Services <LI class=last>Real Estate
Diagnostic Imaging
Global Services
Clinical Systems
Life Sciences
Medical Diagnostics
Integrated IT Solutions <LI class=last>Interventional, Cardiology and Surgery
<LI class=last>Consumer & Industrial <LI class=last>Electrical Distribution <LI class=last>Equipment Services <LI class=last>GE Fanuc <LI class=last>Inspection Technologies <LI class=last>Plastics <LI class=last>Security <LI class=last>Sensing<LI class=last>Aviation Commercial Aviation Services
Energy
Energy Financial Services
Oil & Gas
Transportation <LI class=last>Water & Process Technologies
Networks
Cable
Film <LI class=last>Parks & ResortsThat sure would be interesting, but I doubt it's the same man.

[HummBebe]

However, I'd still like to see the top twenty corporate and individual donors, with amounts given, before I concede 100% that so much of what I've read about them is wrong. It's all about the stakeholders.

Ask him, he's on the Board now....Greg Mumm. If 75% of a 1million dollar org comes from people like me, that only leaves 250,000 for 'big contributors" that's not very much.

The BLM controls the "Natural Resources"

[Greg Mumm]

I am here and available if you would like to ask me questions. I will check this for the next couple of days and see if I can't respond to any questions that are thrown at me.

Just a few comments:

Normally, I don't spend a lot of time in forums because it would dominate my time and there is so much to be done. I need to tell you up front that I will not answer any questions that impose on the privacy of our membership.

There is a fine line between lying and spinning the truth and I guess it all boils down to perspective and motive. The BlueRibbon Coalition has this sort of attack on its character happen quite often and generally it is the same sort of attack based in the same typical source articles. Truth be told, I think the smear campaign done by those sources has been amazingly effective and they should be given credit for how well that effort has done over the years. All they have to do is accuse and people blindly believe it as fact. Mostly I think folks believe because they want to believe it... They need to believe it.

I am not here to try to convince someone of anything. I am here only to answer questions. BlueRibbon Coalition doesn't have any hidden agendas. If you want a conspiracy theory to pan out, you will need to look elsewhere. Everything is out there for anyone who wants to to look at. It is on our website. It is on member's websites. It is on other's websites. It is in the media of all sorts all around. Read it and believe what you decide you are going to believe. I only ask that you consider the source. Truth is an elusive thing.

It amazes me sometimes though as is happening in this particular forum thread is that a smear on the character of BRC is given and it is on the back of BRC or others to prove that it is false. That really isn't the way it is supposed to be in America is it? Yet it happens/happened here.

I am the one who, among other things, is ultimately responsible for fundraising for the BlueRibbon Coalition. I can tell you that we ask for every single dollar that we get or it is volunteered willingly by those who believe in our mission. We were not set up by some industry conglomerate as a front. We were set up by a group of individuals just like yourselves (which included Clark Collins) who just wanted to preserve access. Nothing has ever changed in that regard. I belong to a local Land Cruiser Club, go wheeling just like you, enjoy other forms of recreation just like you, and put my pants on just like any of you every day. Well, most days anyway :^)

We are also grateful for every dollar we get. We spend those dollars on a well publicized mission whose focus is on recreational access. We represent, as you can see above, a whole plethora of individuals and organizations who are concerned with the diverse issues of access for recreation.

The truth is, if Exxon came to me tomorrow with an offer for funding, I would likely take it. They would of course have to accept the caveat that they understand we have our own agenda and they do not get any more vote in determining what we do than the guy who spent $20 to become a member. In fact, we have been accused so many times of being funded by Exxon, that we decided we should put an open letter in our magazine next month asking that Exxon actually do fund us.

It is true that we have taken money from Mining companies on occasion and from Timber companies on occasion and from other industry sources as well. Not because we are a front for them. It is because they may have seemed a likely source for a grant to do something for recreational access so we asked them. Never has that been the bulk of funding for BRC. The bulk of funding has always come from the many good folks like you or me who support what we do for recreation... our members.

Because we listed a donor in a magazine who happened to give us a couple hundred dollars or even a couple thousand dollars so we could print a member handbook or hire a NEPA expert to assess a land management plan does not make us an industry lackey. We are simply giving recognition where recognition is due. In that same magazine we also listed a lot of individuals and organizations who donated as well. It is common, rightful and professional to express your gratefulness and recognize what people do to help you along your course.

In doing that however, you open the door to anyone who wants to take that listing and spin it into something it is not. That happens. I will still continue to do the right thing and recognize our supporters none-the-less.

Greg Mumm
Executive Director
BlueRibbon Coalition

[Greg Mumm]

So this is wrong? They've completely changed? Done a 180 and have abandonded their roots? Abandonded their donors?
http://www.uspirg.org/For the record, I want land opened for "resource extracting". We, as a Nation, need to be more self-sufficient.

We have not completely changed and done any 180s dude. Nor have we abandoned our mission. But, it is not as you have said... or believed based on what "they" have said. Our record stands on it's own.

Greg

[KenP]

Thanks J.

Greg, thanks for joining and I hope you can clear up the issues we've brought forth as laid out.

What involvement does your organization have in reopening mining roads and timber roads not for personal outdoor enjoyment, but for businesses to make their way back to the cut off/protected lands?

Who's your top Washington lobbyist and who else does that person and their firm represent?

Who are the 20 top individual and corporate donors and what percentage of your total donations come from them as a group (you don't have to individually post each donor with each dollar amount).

Thanks again and I look forward to having you clear up my concerns that people I know may be taken advantage of.

Ken

BTW, I reserve the right to ask more questions, such as why is this info not on your website? Or is it I just can't find it?

[DennisAJC]

I called BRC this morning, and spoke with a gentleman who after a few questions gave me the phone number to the Executive Director of BRC, Greg Mumm.

They pointed out to me the BRC's 990 form, which states exactly where there donations come from and the exact dollar amount. It is an IRS form.

http://www.sharetrails.org/files/taxes/05F990.pdf

BRC's focus is Land Use and Access issues for the Offroad Community. 75% or their total income comes soley from membership donations.

I also found a few others:

Sierra Club: http://www.activistcash.com/organization_financials.cfm/oid/194

Wilderness Society: http://www.wilderness.org/Library/Documents/upload/TWS-2004-IRSForm990.pdf

Defenders of Wildlife: http://www.defenders.org/about/2005990.pdf

Earth Justice: http://partners.guidestar.org/controller/searchResults.gs?action_gsReport=1&partner=networkforgood&ein=94-1730465

National Resouce Defense Fund: http://www.activistcash.com/organization_financials.cfm/oid/19

Center for Biological Diversity: http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/aboutus/CBD-2005-990.pdf

I also invited him to come and speak with us regarding the position of the BRC, it's focus and contributors.

Thanks, Beebs




I guess those numbers don't include the numerous lawsuits won by BRC?




$561,815.00 in direct public support. $284,689.00 in membership fees. $232,450.00 in Salaries

That's quite disturbing. Impressive burn rate.



Hey Bebes, out of curiosity, are you on BRC's payroll or do you recieve any financial comphensation?

[HummBebe]

Take a look at Sierra clubs number Dennis....that's impressive.

[Greg Mumm]

Ask him, he's on the Board now....Greg Mumm. If 75% of a 1million dollar org comes from people like me, that only leaves 250,000 for 'big contributors" that's not very much.

Actually, the real number is closer to 10-15% of our budget coming from grants/big contributors unless you count advertising sources to help us publish our magazine and website. But even those are often Ma and Pa operations related to recreation.

I casually tossed out the 75% to you on the phone earlier today being contributions and memberships.

Greg

[KenP]

Truth be told, I think the smear campaign done by those sources has been amazingly effective and they should be given credit for how well that effort has done over the years. All they have to do is accuse and people blindly believe it as fact. Mostly I think folks believe because they want to believe it... They need to believe it.No, I don't want or need to believe it, Greg. I'm trying to look out for a few people I count as friends.

To me, that's all this is about. If you're on the up and up, great!

Thanks
Ken

[KenP]

Please tell me that Jack Welch isn't the Jack Welch of GE.

[HummBebe]

Sierra Club
85 Second Street, San Francisco, CA 94105
Phone 415-977-5500 | Fax 415-977-5799 | Email information@sierraclub.org


http://www.activistcash.com/images/title_financials.gif


Finances
http://www.activistcash.com/images/dots_divider.gif
for tax year ending 12/31/2004

Income $91,843,757.00
Expenditures $90,195,947.00
End-Of-Year Net Worth $53,339,819.00

Tax Status501(c)4

91 million vs $561K now that's scary.

[DennisAJC]

Sierra Club
85 Second Street, San Francisco, CA 94105
Phone 415-977-5500 | Fax 415-977-5799 | Email information@sierraclub.org


http://www.activistcash.com/images/title_financials.gif


Finances
http://www.activistcash.com/images/dots_divider.gif
for tax year ending 12/31/2004

Income $91,843,757.00
Expenditures $90,195,947.00
End-Of-Year Net Worth $53,339,819.00

Tax Status501(c)4

91 million vs $561K now that's scary.


Not really. Businesswise, Sierra Club is a financially well honed corporate monster now.

What I find scary is the BRC's payroll in relation to it's public donations and income. That's a scary burn-rate.

[HummBebe]

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i84/Hummbebe/executivesalaries.jpg

[HummBebe]

Not really. Businesswise, Sierra Club is a financially well honed corporate monster now.

What I find scary is the BRC's payroll in relation to it's public donations and income. That's a scary burn-rate.

They have eight employees and one attorney. Thats not much is it.

So now they are a grass roots org, yes? With that kind of "burn rate" they couldn't possibly stay afloat if they did not have all those volunteers.

And your numbers ... if you want to use an actual 'burn rate" should be 1 million to 232k....right?

Not to mention BRC is a 501(c)3....Sierra Club is a 501(c)4

[DennisAJC]

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i84/Hummbebe/executivesalaries.jpg


Acceptable and very proportionate for the size of the organization.




Sierra Club = $92 Million Dollars - 2.5% to Administration costs.

BRC = $1 Million Dollars - 22% to Administration costs.


I'm trying to simplify it as best as I can, but can you see what is wrong with this picture?

[HummBebe]

Please tell me that Jack Welch isn't the Jack Welch of GE.
No....silly goose.

[HummBebe]

Acceptable and very proportionate for the size of the organization.




Sierra Club = $92 Million Dollars - 2.5% to Administration costs.

BRC = $1 Million Dollars - 22% to Administration costs.


I'm trying to simplify it as best as I can, but can you see what is wrong with this picture?

nope....I can't.

I see a small org out there trying to make a difference.

That's what I see.

[DennisAJC]

nope....I can't.

I see a small org out there trying to make a difference.

That's what I see.

Well it won't go far if your bartender is drinking all the booze.

[Greg Mumm]

Thanks J.

Greg, thanks for joining and I hope you can clear up the issues we've brought forth as laid out.

What involvement does your organization have in reopening mining roads and timber roads not for personal outdoor enjoyment, but for businesses to make their way back to the cut off/protected lands?

Who's your top Washington lobbyist and who else does that person and their firm represent?

Who are the 20 top individual and corporate donors and what percentage of your total donations come from them as a group (you don't have to individually post each donor with each dollar amount).

Thanks again and I look forward to having you clear up my concerns that people I know may be taken advantage of.

Ken

BTW, I reserve the right to ask more questions, such as why is this info not on your website? Or is it I just can't find it?

I?m not sure what kind of question it is other than preloaded with insinuation but, for the record: Even for recreational purpose, it is a very rare occasion that anyone is able to open up any roads and trails that have gone through a legitimate Administrative process. We are more often in the position of trying to prevent access closures that have no legitimate reasoning. It isn?t our job to open roads for business. We represent recreationalists not business. If we have protected access along some corridor to benefit recreation that at some point also provided access for a business or a landowner for example, that is a byproduct and not the point.

The amount of money we spend on lobbying is also listed on our 990. You have to understand what lobbying means in order to understand what you are trying to get to with this question. If I go to DC or to a state and try to influence some piece of legislation, it is lobbying. If I ask you to send a letter to your congressman/woman/person, it is grassroots lobbying. As a 501 (c)(3) we are governed very strictly as to how much lobbying we can or cannot do. We adhere very strictly to those guidelines. You say in your question ?top Washington lobbyist? as if we have a bunch of lobbyists. We don?t. You can see that from our 990 the amount of money spent isn?t what others would have you believe. We work with a firm DC, Birch, Horton, Bittner & Cherot, P.C., as do others although the extent of who those others are, I couldn?t really say. Mostly they would be multiple-use concerns as that is the realm we operate in.

With regard to the top donors, you are asking the wrong question if you are trying to identify who holds the reins of BRC. The right question is who gives you the most money? The answer to that I have already posted here. It is our collective grassroots contingent which represents 85-90% of our budget less advertising dollars. That is who holds the reins. The remainder comes from various other sources. Thank you for not requesting that I individually post each donor with each dollar amount. As I said in my previous comments, it is not my wish to name names and subject those folks to more attacks. It is important that you note that we are not talking big numbers here. Top 20 donors would include individuals and clubs that have donated $1000-$5000. The majority of our funding comes in the range of $5 to $1000 increments.

Some of this information is on our website. If you don?t find it there it is because we spend our time and media efforts on preserving access and not in some defensive posture trying to prove allegations wrong about who we are and what we do. If we did that, we would never get anything done.

Also, I would add that I don't understand the comment that you think people you know have been taken advantage of? Are you saying you think BRC has taken advantage of people you know? Could you give some instances of that so I can look into them?

Greg

[Greg Mumm]

Please tell me that Jack Welch isn't the Jack Welch of GE.

No, our Jack Welch is not the Jack Welch of GE.

Greg

BTW... I find your avitar offensive.

[Greg Mumm]

I guess those numbers don't include the numerous lawsuits won by BRC?




$561,815.00 in direct public support. $284,689.00 in membership fees. $232,450.00 in Salaries

That's quite disturbing. Impressive burn rate.



Hey Bebes, out of curiosity, are you on BRC's payroll or do you recieve any financial comphensation?

Yes those numbers do include all of our funding including legal actions.

Impressive burn rate? Disturbing? What is disturbing about that? Our top payed position is only $70k a year. It takes good people to get done what we are getting done on behalf of recreation. And we are getting a great deal done as is obvious from the attacks we keep getting from the other side. We have 7 full-time people, 1 part-time person and 4 contractors along with a host of volunteers across this nation. I would say if you do the math that is not burn rate by any stretch. On the contrary, we are frugal and act in good stewardship with the donor's money. Check out what the other side has in that department.

No Bebes is not counted as one of our paid staff although I am quite familiar with her volunteer efforts to that end...

Greg

[DennisAJC]

BTW... I find your avitar offensive.

I must apologize for Ken. He's hetrosexual.


All these pretty words BRC use like "Non-Profit", ""Volunteers", "Noble Cause" yet a huge percentage to salary.

At least Sierra club is opened book about their agenda.


Why is it that "Good People" at Seirra Club volunteer their services(2.5%),

And the "Good People" at BRC need to be on a fat payroll(22%)?


If you were to adapt the Sierra model, you should be only burning $25,000.00 for salaries. But shouldn't you be? BRC is a non-profit, volunteer organization right?


I have no problems with what you're trying to sell. It's how you're selling it.

[HummBebe]

And we are getting a great deal done as is obvious from the attacks we keep getting from the other side.


"You can measure your level of success by amount of people you've pissed off"

- Bebe

[Greg Mumm]

Acceptable and very proportionate for the size of the organization.




Sierra Club = $92 Million Dollars - 2.5% to Administration costs.

BRC = $1 Million Dollars - 22% to Administration costs.


I'm trying to simplify it as best as I can, but can you see what is wrong with this picture?

Actually, yes I can see what is wrong with this picture. But, it is the polar opposite of what you are getting at obviously.

Perhaps you could enlighten me as to what is wrong with putting as much as possible back out on the ground working for your people? After all, that is why they joined and donated. They want people out there working for them. This is an advocacy organization.

This is also why we are constantly under attack... because we are getting things done. We are putting our folks' money to work and that requires people to do it. We are doing it as efficiently as possible. If I had their budget, you would still see the same percentages if not higher. People out there working is how you get the job done. We are not about being a big business monster. We are about advocating for recreation.

Greg

[HummBebe]

I must apologize for Ken. He's hetrosexual.


All these pretty words BRC use like "Non-Profit", ""Volunteers", "Noble Cause" yet a huge percentage to salary.

At least Sierra club is opened book about their agenda.


Why is it that "Good People" at Seirra Club volunteer their services(2.5%),

And the "Good People" at BRC need to be on a fat payroll(22%)?


If you were to adapt the Sierra model, you should be only burning $25,000.00 for salaries. But shouldn't you be? BRC is a non-profit, volunteer organization right?


I have no problems with what you're trying to sell. It's how you're selling it.

He's not selling anything.....that's what YOU do.

This a non-profit

Could you just please have a valid conversation with this man who has taken time out of his day to come here.

[DennisAJC]

"You can measure your level of success by amount of people you've pissed off"

- Bebe


Again,

Sierra Club has pissed off millions of people.

BRC has pissed off none. 3 or 4 people were just shaking their heads at how poorly it's being run, asking questions.

By how it reads, It seems you and Greg are slightly, if not pissed off, angry and defensive.

That quote does not apply to BRC.

[HummBebe]

:rolleyes: :yawn:

[DennisAJC]

:OWNED:

[HummBebe]

no....you :OWNED:

for your lack of being able to have a conversation versus doing nothing but making inflammitory accusations.

At least Ken and CP are being civil.

[Greg Mumm]

I must apologize for Ken. He's hetrosexual.


All these pretty words BRC use like "Non-Profit", ""Volunteers", "Noble Cause" yet a huge percentage to salary.

At least Sierra club is opened book about their agenda.


Why is it that "Good People" at Seirra Club volunteer their services(2.5%),

And the "Good People" at BRC need to be on a fat payroll(22%)?


If you were to adapt the Sierra model, you should be only burning $25,000.00 for salaries. But shouldn't you be? BRC is a non-profit, volunteer organization right?


I have no problems with what you're trying to sell. It's how you're selling it.

This is a silly spin you are using that makes no sense in the real world.

In the first place, it is a simple function of mathematics to figure out your twist has nothing to do with the number of volunteers out there working and everything to do with the size of the budget income from big corporations and foundations funded by big corporations.

Huge percentage to payroll? Fat payroll? Give me a break. I wish I could pay our staff more money... something more in line with what the business world pays.

We are doing what we say we are doing. That is what it is about. It isn't about selling something. I don't understand why you keep saying that we are not upfront about what we are doing. There is no hidden agenda here. What is it that you think is hidden and not upfront?

Greg

[HummBebe]

PS Dennis, you asked a question and we answered. Ken asked and we answered. How is that defensive?

[Greg Mumm]

Again,

Sierra Club has pissed off millions of people.

BRC has pissed off none. 3 or 4 people were just shaking their heads at how poorly it's being run, asking questions.

By how it reads, It seems you and Greg are slightly, if not pissed off, angry and defensive.

That quote does not apply to BRC.

You are quite right. I am necessarily in a defensive posture. I and the organization I represent have stood accused unrighteously.

In the face of statements like, "...just shaking their heads at how poorly it's being run..." I thought I was being fairly civil. You surely realize that it is my job to see that it is run efficiently and you have just insulted me unabashedly. Yes, that makes me angry at some level and yes that makes me defensive. More importantly however, I'm still here trying to answer your questions whether they are well founded or not. I really do care about what the grassroots thinks and we really are sincere in trying to make a difference.

Greg

[Greg Mumm]

HummBebe-

I believe I will step away for now. Thank you for the opportunity to try to answer to what BRC is constantly accused of.

Don't hesitate to contact us if there is anything we can do or if there are more questions.

Greg Mumm

PS. I learned something here today.

[DennisAJC]

I'm pointing out irregularities and comparisons.

You guys shouldn't get your panties in a knot. You should use it to answer the question as to why you're miserably losing the battle.


Are you guys formulating a strategy even? Or just reactive as they come along(Another question so take a deep breath.)?





Like most people here, When I look at donating to an non-profit organization, I research first. When I see the "taking" disproportionate with the "giving",

I WON'T DONATE. And by the looks of it, alot here won't either.

Now let me ask you, how's the donations coming along?

People are donating LAND to Seirra Club. How's things going with you guys?



You definitely need restructuring and a strategy. If you deny that too, you've already lost.



Some people can't handle the truth or advice. That's why you a Jac are freakin out.

[HummBebe]

Greg, thank you, for your time and your service to the off road community.

I hope this was a good "I learned something" and not a bad "I learned something".:o :o :o :o

Let me know if there is anything I can do for you.

Bebe

[DennisAJC]

At the very least, we were able to bring some attention to the Land use Forum. It's a freakin ghost town in here.

Glad you learned something Greg. Good luck to you.

If you need any strategy or marketing advice, let me know.

[RuggedH2]

I can't believe I read through this whole thing.

Dennis makes his arguments again, I guess some people see what he's talking about, but for the life of me I can't figure out what he's trying to say. I guess he's just so much smarter than I am that it completely escapes me (like all the other flaming liberal intellectuals).

Defending the Sierra Club or any other militant eviro-mental organization, while claiming you are looking out for the right to drive off road vehicles, flies in the face of reason.

If the thing seems to appear to defy common sense, it probably does.

Sales pitch all you want Dennis, when you write-I feel like I'm being sold something.

I've already donated to the USA-All to fight the whack-jobs in the SUWA, and now that I've read through this, I'm gonna send money to BRC. Because I want to, not because they sold it to me.

[HummBebe]

I worked on this for a little bit....I'll call it a summary:

Q: Question A: Answer C: Comment R: Response

Q: Ken
However, I'd still like to see the top twenty corporate and individual donors, with amounts given, before I concede 100% that so much of what I've read about them is wrong. It's all about the stakeholders.
Q: Ken
Who are the 20 top individual and corporate donors and what percentage of your total donations come from them as a group (you don't have to individually post each donor with each dollar amount).

A: Greg
With regard to the top donors, you are asking the wrong question if you are trying to identify who holds the reins of BRC. The right question is who gives you the most money? The answer to that I have already posted here. It is our collective grassroots contingent which represents 85-90% of our budget less advertising dollars. That is who holds the reins. The remainder comes from various other sources. Thank you for not requesting that I individually post each donor with each dollar amount. As I said in my previous comments, it is not my wish to name names and subject those folks to more attacks. It is important that you note that we are not talking big numbers here. Top 20 donors would include individuals and clubs that have donated $1000-$5000. The majority of our funding comes in the range of $5 to $1000 increments.

Q: Ken
BTW, the president is listed as Jack Welch on the IRS pages you linked to. Is that the Jack Welch who used to be president of GE? The GE that does all this:
http://www.ge.com/company/businesses/index.html

A: Bebe and Greg
No, not the same

Q: Ken
What involvement does your organization have in reopening mining roads and timber roads not for personal outdoor enjoyment, but for businesses to make their way back to the cut off/protected lands?

A: Greg
I?m not sure what kind of question it is other than preloaded with insinuation but, for the record: Even for recreational purpose, it is a very rare occasion that anyone is able to open up any roads and trails that have gone through a legitimate Administrative process. We are more often in the position of trying to prevent access closures that have no legitimate reasoning. It isn?t our job to open roads for business. We represent recreationalists not business. If we have protected access along some corridor to benefit recreation that at some point also provided access for a business or a landowner for example, that is a byproduct and not the point.

Q: Ken
Who's your top Washington lobbyist and who else does that person and their firm represent?

A: Greg
The amount of money we spend on lobbying is also listed on our 990. You have to understand what lobbying means in order to understand what you are trying to get to with this question. If I go to DC or to a state and try to influence some piece of legislation, it is lobbying. If I ask you to send a letter to your congressman/woman/person, it is grassroots lobbying. As a 501 (c)(3) we are governed very strictly as to how much lobbying we can or cannot do. We adhere very strictly to those guidelines. You say in your question ?top Washington lobbyist? as if we have a bunch of lobbyists. We don?t. You can see that from our 990 the amount of money spent isn?t what others would have you believe. We work with a firm DC, Birch, Horton, Bittner & Cherot, P.C., as do others although the extent of who those others are, I couldn?t really say. Mostly they would be multiple-use concerns as that is the realm we operate in.

[HummBebe]

Q: Dennis
I guess those numbers don't include the numerous lawsuits won by BRC?

A: Greg
Yes those numbers do include all of our funding including legal actions.

Q: Dennis
$561,815.00 in direct public support. $284,689.00 in membership fees. $232,450.00 in Salaries
That's quite disturbing. Impressive burn rate.

A: Greg
Impressive burn rate? Disturbing? What is disturbing about that? Our top payed position is only $70k a year. It takes good people to get done what we are getting done on behalf of recreation. And we are getting a great deal done as is obvious from the attacks we keep getting from the other side. We have 7 full-time people, 1 part-time person and 4 contractors along with a host of volunteers across this nation. I would say if you do the math that is not burn rate by any stretch. On the contrary, we are frugal and act in good stewardship with the donor's money. Check out what the other side has in that department.

Q: Dennis
Hey Bebes, out of curiosity, are you on BRC's payroll or do you recieve any financial comphensation?

A: Greg
No Bebes is not counted as one of our paid staff although I am quite familiar with her volunteer efforts to that end...


Q: Dennis
Sierra Club = $92 Million Dollars - 2.5% to Administration costs.
BRC = $1 Million Dollars - 22% to Administration costs.
I'm trying to simplify it as best as I can, but can you see what is wrong with this picture?

A: Greg
Actually, yes I can see what is wrong with this picture. But, it is the polar opposite of what you are getting at obviously.
Perhaps you could enlighten me as to what is wrong with putting as much as possible back out on the ground working for your people? After all, that is why they joined and donated. They want people out there working for them. This is an advocacy organization.
This is also why we are constantly under attack... because we are getting things done. We are putting our folks' money to work and that requires people to do it. We are doing it as efficiently as possible. If I had their budget, you would still see the same percentages if not higher. People out there working is how you get the job done. We are not about being a big business monster. We are about advocating for recreation.

Q: Dennis
All these pretty words BRC use like "Non-Profit", ""Volunteers", "Noble Cause" yet a huge percentage to salary.
At least Sierra club is opened book about their agenda.
Why is it that "Good People" at Seirra Club volunteer their services(2.5%),
And the "Good People" at BRC need to be on a fat payroll(22%)?
If you were to adapt the Sierra model, you should be only burning $25,000.00 for salaries. But shouldn't you be? BRC is a non-profit, volunteer organization right?
What I find scary is the BRC's payroll in relation to it's public donations and income. That's a scary burn-rate.
I have no problems with what you're trying to sell. It's how you're selling it.

A: Greg
This is a silly spin you are using that makes no sense in the real world.
In the first place, it is a simple function of mathematics to figure out your twist has nothing to do with the number of volunteers out there working and everything to do with the size of the budget income from big corporations and foundations funded by big corporations.
Huge percentage to payroll? Fat payroll? Give me a break. I wish I could pay our staff more money... something more in line with what the business world pays.
We are doing what we say we are doing. That is what it is about. It isn't about selling something. I don't understand why you keep saying that we are not upfront about what we are doing. There is no hidden agenda here. What is it that you think is hidden and not upfront?

C: Bebe
"You can measure your level of success by amount of people you've pissed off"

R: Dennis
Sierra Club has pissed off millions of people.
BRC has pissed off none. 3 or 4 people were just shaking their heads at how poorly it's being run, asking questions.
By how it reads, It seems you and Greg are slightly, if not pissed off, angry and defensive.
That quote does not apply to BRC.

R: Greg
You are quite right. I am necessarily in a defensive posture. I and the organization I represent have stood accused unrighteously.
In the face of statements like, "...just shaking their heads at how poorly it's being run..." I thought I was being fairly civil. You surely realize that it is my job to see that it is run efficiently and you have just insulted me unabashedly. Yes, that makes me angry at some level and yes that makes me defensive. More importantly however, I'm still here trying to answer your questions whether they are well founded or not. I really do care about what the grassroots thinks and we really are sincere in trying to make a difference.

Q: Dennis
Are you guys formulating a strategy even? Or just reactive as they come along?

A: Bebe
Yes, have always had a strategy, you can read about it a www.sharetrails.org (http://www.sharetrails.org)
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Sometime, you see them coming, sometimes you don't

Q: Dennis
Now let me ask you, how's the donations coming along?
People are donating LAND to Seirra Club. How's things going with you guys?

A: Bebe
The Sierra club was founded in 1882 by John Muir, he began with 180+ members. The BRC was founded in 1987. The Sierra Club has been around a lot longer, and have been accumulating land longer. I can say with a fair amount of confidence, that those BRC members on the posted list, could very well begin to donate property. And I'm changing my property trust accounts tomorrow. Guess who it's all going to now?


C: Dennis
Like most people here, When I look at donating to an non-profit organization, I research first.
When I see the "taking" disproportionate with the "giving"
I'm pointing out irregularities and comparisons.

R: Bebe
It's an unfair comparison, like comparing the Small Business balance sheet to a Blue Chip Company balance sheet. Makes no logical sense.

C: Dennis
I WON'T DONATE. And by the looks of it, alot here won't either.

R/Q: Bebe
What makes you think that?

C: Dennis
You definitely need restructuring and a strategy. If you deny that too, you've already lost.
At the very least, we were able to bring some attention to the Land use Forum. It's a freakin ghost town in here.

R: Bebe
The Land use forums are ghost towns on every site, not just this one.

C: Dennis
You definitely need restructuring and a strategy. If you deny that too, you've already lost.
If you need any strategy or marketing advice, let me know

R/Q: Bebe
Why don't you Volunteer your time?


So I hope that I was thorough enough and that all the questions have been answered, and all the comments responded too.

[DennisAJC]

I can't believe I read through this whole thing.

Dennis makes his arguments again, I guess some people see what he's talking about, but for the life of me I can't figure out what he's trying to say. I guess he's just so much smarter than I am that it completely escapes me (like all the other flaming liberal intellectuals).

Defending the Sierra Club or any other militant eviro-mental organization, while claiming you are looking out for the right to drive off road vehicles, flies in the face of reason.

If the thing seems to appear to defy common sense, it probably does.

Sales pitch all you want Dennis, when you write-I feel like I'm being sold something.

I've already donated to the USA-All to fight the whack-jobs in the SUWA, and now that I've read through this, I'm gonna send money to BRC. Because I want to, not because they sold it to me.


HAHAHA!!! Not surprised why you guys whine how expensive things are.

So noble running to the aid and possibly partake on some e-patting on the back.

Even a small child can understand the simplicity of my statement. I'll post it again. Read slooooower OK?

If you still don't get it, then yes, I am smarter than you.


I'm pointing out irregularities and comparisons.

You guys shouldn't get your panties in a knot. You should use it to answer the question as to why you're miserably losing the battle.

Are you guys formulating a strategy even? Or just reactive as they come along(Another question so take a deep breath.)?

Like most people here, When I look at donating to an non-profit organization, I research first. When I see the "taking" disproportionate with the "giving",

I WON'T DONATE. And by the looks of it, alot here won't either.

Now let me ask you, how's the donations coming along?

People are donating LAND to Seirra Club. How's things going with you guys?



You definitely need restructuring and a strategy. If you deny that too, you've already lost.



Some people can't handle the truth or advice. That's why you a Jac are freakin out.


And if you kids put your egos and guards aside, you'll realize that people are trying to help. You act all shocked and hurt. We don't live in a perfect world.



Like telling a child to stop picking their nose....

[HummBebe]

The real definition of "Burn Rate"


Burn rate is a synonymous term for negative cash flow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cash_flow). It is a measure for how fast a company will use up its shareholder capital. If the shareholder capital is exhausted, the company will either have to find additional funding or close down.

The term came into common use during the dot-com era (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot-com_era) when many start-up companies went through several stages of funding before emerging into profitability and positive cash flows and hence becoming self-sustainable (or, as for the majority, failing to find additional funding and sustainable business models and hence going bankrupt). In between funding events, burn rate becomes an important management measure, since it together with the available funds provides a time measure to when the next funding event needs to take place.

Some claim, that part of the reasons behind the dot-com bust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot-com_bust), was the unsound management and financial investor practices to keep the burn rate up, taking it as a proxy for how fast the start-up company was acquiring a customer base.

Aside from financing, the term burn rate is also used for projects to determine the rate at which hours (allocated to a project) are being used, to identify when work is going out of scope, or when efficiencies are being lost.

[RuggedH2]

Every time I speak with a crazed liberal, it's the same thing. Insult throwing, name calling, conspiracy based theory only they can see. They're always so much smarter than everybody else, that is why they are the only ones that buy into their crazy B.S.

I just can't figure out why you drive a Hummer Dennis. Then again, I don't care why.

You claim to speak for others, I don't see to many following you anywhere. You contribute little, except the negatives, and that is used to entertain yourself.

Your not particularly funny, and I doubt nearly as successful in business as you claim. I've already seen your marketing prowess compared to leaders in their industry, and you fell way short. Keep on deluding yourself about your impact on others, and by all means please tell us all what we should believe. That really is entertaining.

[DennisAJC]

Q: Dennis
R: Bebe
It's an unfair comparison, like comparing the Small Business balance sheet to a Blue Chip Company balance sheet. Makes no logical sense.


Actually you did Bebes. That's what started this whole thing.

Take a look at Sierra clubs number Dennis....that's impressive.

I just expanded the comparison threw some pie in your eye.:D



I'll give you a little advice,

Not everyone is gonna roll over, smile and believe you for everything you say everytime you type someting cute or post a bunny picture. I'm actually just trying to help out. You can be on the same side but grossly disagree with each other.

I don't care if I can't convince you. Your bigger problem is convincing those who have the potential to donate. Take a page from the Sierra Club. You can learn something. They are doing something right and that's a shame for us because we're all on the losing team.

[HummBebe]

Keep your advice Dennis, I'm the Momma, I'll hand out the advice around here. :D

[KenP]

BTW... I find your avitar offensive.Actually, it's AVATAR, but that's ok.

I can't believe you find this one offensive.41252

Anyway, I changed it to this one.:p ;) 41253

Atleast this way everyone knows it's me that loves bewbies.:giggling:

Seriously, thanks for taking the time to explain your team, your mission, and your goals.

Now stop thinking everything I said was full of inuendo.

[HummBebe]

Just FYI, I'm going to clean up this thread a little.....just to keep it on topic.

Thanks.