Post your wheeling pics please [Archive]

FATTshack

09-09-2003, 12:19 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DennisAJC:
Extreme pics?

Yodas trying to follow H2's are extreme enough.

He ain't heavy.....
He's ma HUMMER baby!
03 NUDE Pewter Lux H2
03 Dressed Range Rover<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why do have to turn this into another Toyota vs. H2 thread?

he was just asking for extreme H2 pics... are you sensitive about something?
Do you have any extreme H2 pics to share, or just a lame comment about another vehicle trying to follow an H2?
For all you know he might be considering buying an H2, and would like to see if he is going to get his moneys worth.
and as far as the pic you posted... you don't know what could have been under that water, perhaps your beloved H2 couldn't make it through either. Last time I checked H2s still had to comply with the laws of Physics too.

Its been beat to death already..... its 90% driver and 10% vehicle.

all you are doing by posting a message like that is starting a flame war (again)...

P.S. I like H2s.. Infact I've driven one for the past 4 months..... So I do have an idea about what they are like.

FATTshack

09-09-2003, 12:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jnsfox:
I'm not going to feed the trolls, but his comment was obviously disingenuous. Before posting my reply I investigated his web site and saw his pics. Yes, there were heavily modified vehicles doing things that stock H2's could not, however, none of them belonged to this guy. And judging by his little bio, I’m fairly sure he is not in the market for an H2 at this time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Perhaps you are right, he might not be in the market for an H2 at this time.
I feel that "DennisAJC" might potentially start another flame war by lashing out at "MikeE" with the Toyota vs. H2 comment.
its unnecessary to stoop down to such an immature level just to prove that "My toy is better than your toy"...
I stopped doing that in grade school.
I would rather go out and wheel than sit here and talk about what vehicle is better at it.
Also I would really be happy if H2s joined me on some trail rides. It would be nice to see first hand there off road ability. (No sarcasm implied)
If anyone is in the central FL area let me know. I am trying to setup a run. everyone is invited to join. we even wheel with a Honda Passport in the mix.. and to everyone's surprise, it does really good! www.fattshack.com (http://www.fattshack.com) ...yes it is a Toyota site..LOL

kdio

09-09-2003, 02:52 PM

I found this picture some time ago, I think this is pretty exteme.

03 H2 Sunset Orange Polished Magna Charger w headers & cold air intake, 37" MTRs w Weld Mountain Crushers, GPS Nav. & 2 rear LCD TVs w DVD, Extreme Tube steps

Adam in CO

09-09-2003, 03:21 PM

That IS pretty extreme!

Adam P. Smith
Mortgage Pros, Inc.
303-407-2405 p
303-407-2414 f
aps101374@yahoo.com

09-09-2003, 03:26 PM

Alec W:

Excellent reply, much more diplomatic and polite than I would be.

I used to try with factual responses, but it usually doesn't sink in with the trolls or they wouldn't ask the obvious questions in the first place.

SuperPoser

09-09-2003, 07:28 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by kdio:
I found this picture some time ago, I think this is pretty exteme.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thankyou,
that is the kind of pic I was looking for,

to everyone else,
that pic of me burried to my headlights was me being a noob moron back in march...

I have honestly never seen an H2 doing hardcore stuff... where as I have taken my stock taco with locked jeeps on 35's and not had a problem (other than scraping the frame everywhere...)

I would love to wheel with you guys, I wheel with chevys, dodges, jeeps, fords... I'm just out to have a good time...

to jnsfox, yes, my buddies have awsome rigs...
and I don't do everything they do, but the only reason I woudn't do something is if I tried it and couldn't make it, or if my rig was just too small...

my 4runner is getting there, but still has ifs, and only 33s...
the lockers and 5.29 gears greatly helped...

DennisAJC... lol
if you're that good of a wheeler, I'll "try to" follow you any day http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

later all...
if anyone wants to go wheeling in my area, let me know,
Mike
Rock789@aol.com

http://www.eng.ysu.edu/~melliott/hobbies.htm

DennisAJC

09-10-2003, 10:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jnsfox:
Please try thread
http://www.elcova.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=2826088551&f=2606011751&m=1986080793

This and many other threads show the H2 off-roading all over the country.

Seth<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Reply by MikeE AKA FATTshack
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>thanks,

lookin for some hardcore wheeling pics,

any hardcore threads?

http://www.eng.ysu.edu/~melliott/hobbies.htm <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

jnsfox put up quite a nice post, not extreme enough?

Not tryin to start a FLAME WAR but I think the EXTREME you're looking for involves,

-Rolled over H2's
-Stuck H2's
-Recovered H2's

Pictures only TROLLS would use.

jnsfox's photos not extreme enough??????

I could smell you a mile away. **** Off

He ain't heavy.....
He's ma HUMMER baby!
03 NUDE Pewter Lux H2
03 Dressed Range Rover

FATTshack

09-11-2003, 12:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Reply by MikeE AKA FATTshack <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Are you a moron?

I live in FL and he lives in PA..... why is it you think we are the same person?

Click on my site and you will see that we are not the same....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Pictures only TROLLS would use.

jnsfox's photos not extreme enough??????

I could smell you a mile away. **** Off <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the picture "Kdio" posted is pretty extreme.

you are very hostile about something... I think you need to visit a doctor.
now go eat some Haldol and calm down!

Ps.S. before you make a stupid comment like "MikeE and FATTshack are the same person" Please...post something to back it up. don't just make foolish assumptions

DennisAJC

09-11-2003, 03:13 PM

To MikeE and FATTshack,

My apologies, I was wrong. I did check out both your sites and they were quite cool. These Flame Wars have gotten some of us on the edge.

The Forum is just getting fun again and yes alot of times I will "shoot first ask questions later".

Again sorry, and welcome to the site. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

He ain't heavy.....
He's ma HUMMER baby!
03 NUDE Pewter Lux H2
03 Dressed Range Rover

SuperPoser

09-11-2003, 07:18 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DennisAJC:
To MikeE and FATTshack,

My apologies, I was wrong. I did check out both your sites and they were quite cool. These Flame Wars have gotten some of us on the edge.

The Forum is just getting fun again and yes alot of times I will "shoot first ask questions later".

Again sorry, and welcome to the site. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

He ain't heavy.....
He's ma HUMMER baby!
03 NUDE Pewter Lux H2
03 Dressed Range Rover<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I';ll forgive you this time...lol

but as I stated in some other posts... I am just looking for more friends to wheel with...

I found this and thought mayby some h2's would be at the level I like to wheel at (no offence to others, but most stockers can't keep up...lol)

lol jk...
I do enjoy doing as hard core stuff as I can with my stock rig, and my offroad rig...
I have taken damage, but as long as its not too bad, I'll still have fun...

just a side note... I took my stock taco thru some trails that a 6" lifted taco with 33x12.50 superswampers couldn't make...

and also, I post all my info,
heck my resume (even though a little old) is on my webpage...lol

http://www.eng.ysu.edu/~melliott/hobbies.htm

SuperPoser

09-11-2003, 07:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DennisAJC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jnsfox:
Please try thread
http://www.elcova.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=2826088551&f=2606011751&m=1986080793

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Reply by MikeE AKA FATTshack
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>thanks,

lookin for some hardcore wheeling pics,

any hardcore threads?

http://www.eng.ysu.edu/~melliott/hobbies.htm <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

jnsfox put up quite a nice post, not extreme enough?

Not tryin to start a FLAME WAR but I think the EXTREME you're looking for involves,

-Rolled over H2's
-Stuck H2's
-Recovered H2's

Pictures only TROLLS would use.

jnsfox's photos not extreme enough??????

I could smell you a mile away. **** Off

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes, you are exactly right!
I am looking for pics of h2's stuck!!!
when I look at my buddies pics in ttora,...
I wanta see them doing the nastiest stuff they can find!
with their stock rigs!!!
as you can see, as posted above...
that stuck taco is mine...
that was me being a stupid noob, but still, I got a brand new taco, and wanted to wheel the hell out of it...
I am looking for guys with h2's (or any vehical) to show me their pics...

again,
I am in northeastern ohio near youngstown...
I try to wheel about everyother week, so if you wanta go wheeling in my area some time (ohio/pa/wv...) just let me know,

later,
Mike

http://www.eng.ysu.edu/~melliott/hobbies.htm

FATTshack

09-11-2003, 07:46 PM

SuperPoser

09-12-2003, 12:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by FATTshack:
i did notice the significant performance gains the H2 has compared to the H1.. its very impressive!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

whats your opinion on the 2

one of my buddies is looking at getting a used hummer truck...
it has a desel engine is all I know about it... and I think he said it was a military hummer...

http://www.eng.ysu.edu/~melliott/hobbies.htm

I just noticed, this thread has 5 checkmarks for rating...
how did we pull that off?...lol

[This message was edited by MikeE on 09-11-03 at 07:26 PM.]

FATTshack

09-12-2003, 12:51 AM

H1
Engine
V8, 6.5L Turbocharged diesel
Transmission
4L80-E 4-speed automatic
Drivetrain
full-time 4WD
TorqTrac 4 (TT4) traction system
Compression Ratio
20.2:1
Horsepower
(@3400 rpm) 195 hp
Torque
(@1800 rpm) 430 lb.-ft.
Gear Ratios
1st: 2.48:1
2nd: 1.48:1
3rd: 1.00:1
4th: .75:1
Reverse: 2.08:1

H2
Engine
Vortec 6000 V8 6.0L
Transmission
4L65-E 4-speed automatic
Drivetrain
full-time 4WD
Traction Control System w/ TC2 (2nd level of TCS offering 3 additional operating modes)
Compression Ratio
9.4:1
Horsepower
(@5200 rpm) 316 hp
Torque
(@4000 rpm) 360 lb.-ft.
Gear Ratios
1st: 3.06:1
2nd: 1.62:1
3rd: 1.00:1
4th: .69:1
Reverse: 2.29:1

SuperPoser

09-12-2003, 12:57 AM

thanks for the info FATTshack

http://www.eng.ysu.edu/~melliott/hobbies.htm

FATTshack

09-12-2003, 03:58 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by MikeE:
thanks for the info FATTshack

http://www.eng.ysu.edu/~melliott/hobbies.htm<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No worries...
Check out the hummer site.... Its got some good info on it.

Tahoe\'sIMeanH2\'sSUCK

09-16-2003, 08:37 PM

H2's suck, if you want a real rig get a taco, Tahoes whoops, "H2's" are great mall runners for rich sissies who have more money that sense LOL, id like to see an H2 follow a prerunner taco, wouldnt happen, espeacially with those plastic tie rods you guys have, sheesh, TTORA

H2's suck, want a real rig get a taco!

Tucson Beast

09-16-2003, 08:59 PM

TROLL Alert :P

"It's what you learn, after you know it all, that counts - John Wooden

DennisAJC

09-17-2003, 02:41 AM

Roger that....

Troll Alert.

He ain't heavy.....
He's ma HUMMER baby!
03 NUDE Pewter Lux H2
03 Dressed Range Rover

Adam in CO

09-17-2003, 11:21 AM

Is this in English?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tahoe'sIMeanH2'sSUCK:
H2's suck, if you want a real rig get a taco, Tahoes whoops, "H2's" are great mall runners for rich sissies who have more money that sense LOL, id like to see an H2 follow a prerunner taco, wouldnt happen, espeacially with those plastic tie rods you guys have, sheesh, TTORA

H2's suck, want a real rig get a taco!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Adam P. Smith
Mortgage Pros, Inc.
303-407-2405 p
303-407-2414 f
aps101374@yahoo.com

Dan

09-17-2003, 12:19 PM

http://www.petsignsplus.com/1fantasyxgif/troll.gif

- Dan

-------------------------------------------------
SUT on order since 12/02 - 9 months to go!
-------------------------------------------------

DiscoDancingRover

09-17-2003, 12:42 PM

Can someone explain what the hell a taco is? I always thought it was good food. I seem to eat them a lot while in my rover, and occationally while in my friend's jeep. Haven't had a chance to eat a taco in an H2 yet. hmmm

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"

Dan

09-17-2003, 01:46 PM

A Toyota TACOma

-------------------------------------------------
SUT on order since 12/02 - 9 months to go!
-------------------------------------------------

Buckeye Hummer

09-17-2003, 03:10 PM

I eat taco's while driving my h2. In SoCal we have many authentic restaurants so it's really nice. I use lots of hot sauce.

Many of my employees are Mexican so I get schooled on tacos. The American hard taco shell is not a real taco, but rather a fried taquito. A taco is a small round, soft, tortilla with meat, lime, cilantro etc., which can be found at numerous street stands throughout Mexico as well as spots in SoCal. There is a slight modified but very authentic version by Baja Fresh that is really good.

So, really a taco is not a light duty truck, but rather, a tasty Mexican food!

DURAMAX TIM

09-17-2003, 03:22 PM

I like eating the real tacos too, but then again being a carnivore I'll most anything. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Dan great pic http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

As for troll scratchings, u have to be illiterate to read them correctly http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

09-17-2003, 03:50 PM

Taco is what Tacoma driving dorks call their trucks. I reckon the TRD [Tokyo Rancid Design] version of the Tacoma is known by the ricer crowd as a Taco Supreme.

No matter what you call 'em, my Chevy with a big-ass American V8 likes tacos for lunch!

I've been nice to these trolls for too long - he had it coming. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Tucson Beast

09-17-2003, 04:59 PM

Hey Buckeye

Don't forget that there are different types of TACOs - there is the SoCal style - Tex-Mex Style - Sante Fe Style and of course the best is the Sonoran Style found here in Southern Arizona.

http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"It's what you learn, after you know it all, that counts - John Wooden

09-17-2003, 05:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tahoe'sIMeanH2'sSUCK:
H2's suck, if you want a real rig get a taco, Tahoes whoops, "H2's" are great mall runners for rich sissies who have more money that sense LOL, id like to see an H2 follow a prerunner taco, wouldnt happen, espeacially with those plastic tie rods you guys have, sheesh, TTORA

H2's suck, want a real rig get a taco!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey everybody, it's the Prime Minister of Japan, Mr. Junichiro Koizumi. Look, we know you're proud of your nation's products but we seriously buy enough of your crap to span from here to the moon and back. Now it's time for you to do your part and return the favor.

Thanks for visiting Junichiro - I recognize the writing style, but very creative with the User name no less.

Buckeye Hummer

09-17-2003, 05:33 PM

Tuscon, I asked my crew about Sonoran style and they have not heard of it. What exactly is it?

Gracias,

Buckeye

SuperPoser

09-17-2003, 07:49 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Chris:
Can someone explain what the hell a taco is?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A taco is a toyota tacoma used for offroading...
-the MA must be removed from the all the truck's stickers...

however most people refer to their normal tacoma's as taco's...

I'll to the taco mod when I have it paid off...

http://www.eng.ysu.edu/~melliott/hobbies.htm

SuperPoser

09-17-2003, 07:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Buckeye Hummer:
I eat taco's while driving my h2. In SoCal we have many authentic restaurants so it's really nice. I use lots of hot sauce.

Many of my employees are Mexican so I get schooled on tacos. The American hard taco shell is not a real taco, but rather a fried taquito. A taco is a small round, soft, tortilla with meat, lime, cilantro etc., which can be found at numerous street stands throughout Mexico as well as spots in SoCal. There is a slight modified but very authentic version by Baja Fresh that is really good.

So, really a taco is not a light duty truck, but rather, a tasty Mexican food!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol!
I eat taco's in my taco!

uh... tacoma rather ;o)

http://www.eng.ysu.edu/~melliott/hobbies.htm

2slo4now

09-17-2003, 08:26 PM

Ya know the newbie might be right.

I think I'll sell my supercharged h2 and buy reg cab taco prerunner. I would not want air because it would rob 1/3 of the HP that the powerfull 4 banger makes plus it would add $4 per month to the payment. I'll just ride around with the windows down so I can hear everyone whistling at me and I can get my food quick when I ride thru dairy queen. I look forward to shifting that manual trans and getting a blister on my left knee from rubbing the dash because the 2 8's that I put behind the seat caused my leg room to be 3 inches. I also will really enjoy having the non tilt steering wheel rubbin my crotch and chest every time I turn a corner.

Hey Taco fans. Would you buy a new vehicle from Bin Laden manufacturering? I know what happened at a place called Pearl Harbor. You can do some research and find out too. I try not to buy anything where the majority of money paid for the product ends up in Japan. Regardless of where the damn things are built.

I have owned 100 plus vehicles and have driven them all. Proud to say Toyota and my name have never been on a ownership document of any kind.

Dan from Alabama

Given a choice of a $1 Taco from Taco Bell and $1 for a new Tacoma that I would have to drive everyday........... Give me some extra hot sauce and a sweet tea.

marinron

09-18-2003, 12:03 AM

Re: Original request

marinron

09-18-2003, 12:04 AM

Re: Original request 2

marinron

09-18-2003, 12:05 AM

Re: Original request 3

marinron

09-18-2003, 12:07 AM

Re: Original request 4

marinron

09-18-2003, 12:19 AM

Hummerdog

DennisAJC

09-18-2003, 03:20 AM

2slo,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>You can do some research and find out too. I try not to buy anything where the majority of money paid for the product ends up in Japan. Regardless of where the damn things are built. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As he types on his Toshiba keyboard. HAHAHAHA!

Chris,

I've eaten Tacos in my H2 and Rover http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.

He ain't heavy.....
He's ma HUMMER baby!
03 NUDE Pewter Lux H2
03 Dressed Range Rover

DennisAJC

09-18-2003, 03:26 AM

2slo,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Dan from Alabama

Given a choice of a $1 Taco from Taco Bell and $1 for a new Tacoma that I would have to drive everyday........... Give me some extra hot sauce and a sweet tea. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sweet tea????? No wonder, You're Chinese right???

Chinese hate Japs too after they got their ass kicked too. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I feel for ya buddy.

He ain't heavy.....
He's ma HUMMER baby!
03 NUDE Pewter Lux H2
03 Dressed Range Rover

DiscoDancingRover

09-18-2003, 05:08 AM

Dennis I have eatten tacos in our toyota land... I mean the lx470... http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"

SuperPoser

09-18-2003, 07:17 PM

I must say, I have been laughing at most of everyones post!
(esp. what 2slo4now just said about trying to fit subs into a single cab tacoma)

but wtf are you guys so worried about?

I made this thread to simply see some hardcore offroaders who owned h2's
I saw a couple, and you all have seen my pics of my stock tacoma...

if you have a lot of money and want to get an H2, all the power to ya,
if ya wanta wheel it, I'de love to go wheeling with ya some day...

if you think you have the best vehical made in the world, get a damn life!!!

I love my tacoma, and it does great with the exception of no room behind the seat... same if I got a regular cab dakota, s-10, or ranger...
I also got my tacoma for much less than I could have gotten an s-10, ranger, or dakota...

I was looking for a stick shift, as I feel I have better control with a manual tranny...

you got an H2, cool for you...
if you are offended by tacoma's, then mayby you need to get some help,

for everyone who hasn't acted like an ass, thanks,
for thoes of you who have...
grow up...lol

later,
Mike

http://www.eng.ysu.edu/~melliott/hobbies.htm

SuperPoser

09-18-2003, 07:20 PM

marinron

thoes pics are hella cool!!!

I try to stay away from mud like that after I burried my taco...lol

http://www.eng.ysu.edu/~melliott/hobbies.htm

Buckeye Hummer

09-18-2003, 07:35 PM

Mike,

I don't really care about your post but wanted to test my new avitar.

Butthead it is!

2slo4now

09-18-2003, 09:38 PM

DennisAJC

Regular ice tea has to have sugar added in Alabama like coffee has to have cream and sugar added in Canada.

My keyboard was made in the sweat shops of China. I'm hurting the trade deficit by $10 most of that is shipping. $25,000 thats a different story.

Dan from Alabama

Are Bob and Doug McKinzie a pretty good indication of what most folks from Canada are like. If so I'd like to meet ya some time.

I won't post any more. Sorry for messin' the thread.

DennisAJC

09-18-2003, 11:58 PM

Just pullin yer leg Dan http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

He ain't heavy.....
He's ma HUMMER baby!
03 NUDE Pewter Lux H2
03 Dressed Range Rover

Tucson Beast

09-19-2003, 08:25 PM

Hey Buckeye

There is a different technique and taste to Sonoran style Mexican food. It is very differenct from other Mexican food styles like TEX/MEX and Santa Fe. The taco are not just separate shells (corn) fried and then filled with meat/chicken or fish (ala Taco Bell). They are formed as one and fried together as one - also dressed a little different than others with a different homemade sauce. I grew up eating Sonoran-style Mexican food. Now you made me hungry - looks like I need to make some tonight (my grandma's receipe) http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"It's what you learn, after you know it all, that counts - John Wooden

Tucson Beast

09-19-2003, 09:13 PM

Hey Alec

When I lived in Denver for 5 years - it was hard for me to find "good" Mexican food (like I grew up on) - Bluebonnett is not bad in Denver (South Broadway) - but it has a Santa Fe influence - Sorry I never give out receipes - only invite and cook - you should here my story on my special receipe for Red Beans and Rice from canjun country.

http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"It's what you learn, after you know it all, that counts - John Wooden