Great Course!

[tower]

H2Blondie and I just got back from a weekend in Moab with Bill Burke. I can't recommend this course and instructor highly enough. He walks his talk. He has been operator and mechanic for every type of multiple drive axle vehicle imaginable (including tanks). He covers winching, jacking, getting unstuck and field repairs, all "hands on". We did some 4+ runs. I Would do it again in a heartbeat (and will at some other location) FWIW. You can find him at http://www.bb4wa.com

[tower]

H2Blondie and I just got back from a weekend in Moab with Bill Burke. I can't recommend this course and instructor highly enough. He walks his talk. He has been operator and mechanic for every type of multiple drive axle vehicle imaginable (including tanks). He covers winching, jacking, getting unstuck and field repairs, all "hands on". We did some 4+ runs. I Would do it again in a heartbeat (and will at some other location) FWIW. You can find him at http://www.bb4wa.com

[tower]

We didn't stay on any one particular trail. The first day we went south, the next day north of Moab proper. Bill said he found the trails named in a somewhat arbitrary way. The first day was easier stuff including some of 7 Mile Rim. The second day was the tougher stuff. I remember one was called "The Big Ugly". Another tough one was the last part of El Dorado. I'm still not savvy on the geography out there. I hope this helps.

I cut an interior sidewall on The Big Ugly. Bill showed us how to do a good enough sidewall repair to limp out, but I swapped in my spare anyway. Before driving home, I swapped the repaired stock Goodrich tire for a decent used one ($60). I stopped by my dealer when I got back to L.A. and had my Pitman & idler arms replaced (under warranty, of course).

I think I have a couple of photos that H2B shot. I'll post soon.

[DRTYFN]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tower:
We didn't stay on any one particular trail. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We didn't stay on any one particular trail = I laid on the couch and read about them in a book.

[PARAGON]

Well, of course the trails are arbitrarily named. But they are named and it would be helpful to some of us who haven't been to Moab if you could give us some idea of where he guided you on 4+ trails and you made it through.

[ShaggyX]

Sorta smells like BS to me.

[timgco]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tower:
We didn't stay on any one particular trail. Another tough one was the last part of El Dorado. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


That would be called Helldarado. But there is no way in Helldorado that you did that trail. Rock Buggy's have a tough time getting through there, let alone a stcok Hummer.
Helldorado (http://community.webshots.com/album/307476314yosBuq/0)

[Mr. I - Man]

If ya have the air supension its definately do-able The extra 2" works wonders.

[Mr. I - Man]

Just Kidding

[Fubar]

Come on Tower. Pictures tell a thousand stories. You don't honestly expect us to believe you had a copilot and Bill Burke & crew along for the ride and no one had a camera or had a chance to take pictures?

Tim,
great find, lots of great photos on that site. I agree a stock H2 would have a tough time getting over even the simplest obstacle on that trail.

[DennisAJC]

http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[H2Blondie]

I don't know how the trails were rated, but it was fun! I even got to drive on the first day. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[LoLo]

Is it really that difficult to believe what a fellow H2 enthusiast has said...??? Come on guys... give Tower a break! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Tower and Blondie had a great time... with pictures to prove it -- even have photos of the split sidewall (no pride there!).

Since I haven't been to Moab, I can't fill in the names of the trails -- but they were ones I definitely wouldn't take MY H2... sorry, my "mall machine" won't be caught dead on ANY of them!

There are "trails" and there are "TRAILS"... the latter will never have the pleasure of my truck's company -- but Tower's rig prevailed!

[PARAGON]

Give us a break! He stated "4+ runs." Many of us are going to Moab for the first time and would like to know.

If you know it was a 4+ run, you had to know the name of the trail. Also, he said he thinks he has "a couple of photos." Yet, now you say "They had a great time... with pictures to prove it -- even have photos of the split sidewall" but none of them are posted, knowing full well that's expected on this site when one does something like this.

http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[DRTYFN]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LoLo:
Is it really that difficult to believe what a fellow H2 enthusiast has said...??? Come on guys... give Tower a break! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Tower and Blondie had a great time... with pictures to prove it -- even have photos of the split sidewall (no pride there!).

Since I haven't been to Moab, I can't fill in the names of the trails -- but they were ones I definitely wouldn't take MY H2... sorry, my "mall machine" won't be caught dead on ANY of them!

There are "trails" and there are "TRAILS"... the latter will never have the pleasure of my truck's company -- but Tower's rig prevailed! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uhmmm... if you were there for this you'd be rolling your eyes at his tall tales.

[DRTYFN]

Alec, Dennis... where is my "Hep...ahm bobbing..." sound clip? I need to make that my sig line again.http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[H2Blondie]

I don't have the pictures on my computer here at work, but if Tower hasn't posted some by this evening when I get home, I will!

[DRTYFN]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by H2Blondie:
I don't have the pictures on my computer here at work, but if Tower hasn't posted some by this evening when I get home, I will! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can't wait to see the gravel road pictures.http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[DennisAJC]

http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Just as long as you had fun Tower. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[tower]

Good Lord! Don't any of you work during the day? Thanks for all the cynical comments (not). There's a twisted part of me that wants to not post any photos and let those of you who are so mistrusting stew in your own BS.

Here is the very first run we did on the first (easy) day. Mostly, this day was the same level of stuff that we all did in Moab in April. Bill broke the ice right off the bat by getting stuck in the muck (it was just after some good rains). This is me, strapping him out.

[tower]

Here is the cut tire from The Big Ugly.

[tower]

Now, if I can figure out how to post a photo album here without having to downsize all the photos, I will do so tomorrow. In the meantime heres one more.

[Longhorn]

Bill used to have a lot more sponsor stickers on his D90 http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Mas picturas por favor pendejo http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Fubar]

Tower,
What the hell are you doing? You get questioned by some of the senior members of this board about a couple comments you made and all of sudden its us that are or should be swimming in our BS?

You claim to have run trails with ratings of 4+ but can't remember there names or where they were. Then you post a picture of you crawling down a nothing obstacle, with a disclaimer that it was the first day and that things got harder. What gives? You shot this stuff digitally so don't give lame excuses for not posting a picture that address the questions at hand. Address the concerns for which you've been questioned on. No one is questioning you went to Moab, no one is questioning you hired Bill Burke as a trail guide. What seams to be in question is your statement about running +4 difficulty trails and which trails exactly they were. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[DennisAJC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Longhorn:
"Correct the wise man and he will thank you. Correct the fool and he will attack you." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

HEHEHE! Your sig is making me tee hee! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://elcova.com/groupee/forums/a/ga/ul/1231004321/inlineimg/Y/img_0493.jpg

[h2co-pilot]

HA Haaaa! LMAO! I forgot about that.http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[ROX]

Tower! Post some more pics!

BTW, the bling looks great! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[DennisAJC]

I clearly remember one azzhole from the big jeeper group that passed us when they saw Tower's H2 almost going over...

"Those Hummer guys don't belong here."

I wanted to say something but they drove past.

Sometimes one bad apple makes the whole barrel look bad. The last Moab trip had just way too much unnecessary dangers to the teams overall safety.

Some people are just WAY TOO STUBBORN to realize what TEAM really means. LIES and EGO played a sad factor too.

[KenP]

Running a +4 trail is different then touching a few spots on a +4 trail.

BTW, I understand Bill hates H2's. So why would he take you two on a +4 trail knowing the truck would probably not make it without serious damage?

[timgco]

I found one of the "4+++ trail" Tower ran while in Moab.

[DRTYFN]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by timgco:
I found one of the "4+++ trail" Tower ran while in Moab. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
And he still managed to f' that up.

[TootsSUT]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Alec W:
Even little Fred is confused. I'll have to translate but he is saying "Dad, why didn't he drive on that black stuff where I am standing?".

Fred also said to tell t~ (the artist formally known as TallTales) that hiring a guide in Moab is a good idea for some people http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who's "taco bell" dog? The look on this dog's face speaks a million words!! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[DennisAJC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by timgco:
I found one of the "4+++ trail" Tower ran while in Moab. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[HummerNewbie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by timgco:
I found one of the "4+++ trail" Tower ran while in Moab. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Tim, that one is in Kansas http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[ShaggyX]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DennisAJC:
http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Some has to photoshop tower's face onto that one. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Hart1]

lol! Talk about some here proceeding from a number of false assumptions.... http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

No good deed will go unpunished.

Thanks for the trip report.... http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[KenP]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hart1:
lol! Talk about some here proceeding from a number of false assumptions.... http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

No good deed will go unpunished.

Thanks for the trip report.... http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I just want to see some pics and the names of the trails he went on. What are you talking about? http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Hart1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Sorta smells like BS to me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Come on Tower. Pictures tell a thousand stories. You don't honestly expect us.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">... If you know it was a 4+ run, you had to know the name of the trail. Also, he said he thinks... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif (However, The Timco/Dennis Photos were brilliant and very funny...)

[Hart1]

Tower:

I have a question. What was Mr. Burk's view of the Hummer H2? Did he say?

I am thinking of going to his Anza Borrego trip in November....

[Fubar]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DennisAJC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by timgco:
I found one of the "4+++ trail" Tower ran while in Moab. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
here you go ShaggyZr2

[PARAGON]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hart1:
lol! Talk about some here proceeding from a number of false assumptions.... http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

No good deed will go unpunished.

Thanks for the trip report.... http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You are one stupid loser. "trip report?" What trip report? We have asked about a "trip report" repeatedly but all we've gotten is the run-around. Your nonsensical one-liners is about as witty as wipers on a goat's butt.

[Hart1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You are one stupid loser. "trip report?" What trip report? We have asked about a "trip report" repeatedly but all we've gotten is the run-around. Your nonsensical one-liners is about as witty as wipers on a goat's butt. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, "Stupid Loser" that's really a good one.

I found Tower's impressions and overviews of his experience entertaining and informative.

The information on Mr. Burk's 4x4 trip offerings (via his web site) was appreciated and used.

If his efforts are not good enough for you, maybe its time for you to get off your fat ass and file your own trip report?

Your continuing false assumptions and accusations while amusing, are really irreverent.

damn.... http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[ShaggyX]

Hey Alec...does that trail have an off-camber rocky section? Because if it does I think I have been there before. It is really intense isnt it?

[PARAGON]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hart1:
Your continuing false assumptions and accusations while amusing, are really irreverent. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>No, actually they are not. First please explain what false assumptions I have made and any accusations I have laid. If it's that you are a stupid loser, well that has been well documented by you.

As far as anything being irreverent, to receive reverence, you have to have credibility and respect first.

[Hart1]

Alac:

I was wondering when you would "pop" up.

At any rate, Tower's first post was focused on what Mr. Burk Offered...So the subject seemed to me to be Mr. Burk's services and what a good time Tower and his companion had. True?

[Hart1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">... If you know it was a 4+ run, you had to know the name of the trail. Also, he said he thinks... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here is a good example of your BS. No, you don't "Had to know" the name. Give me a break.

Notwithstanding, you are now going to tell me what I think? lol...

[DennisAJC]

Hart,

Never had any beef with you before but you need to shut that pie hole of yours.

I'm sure you would not appreciate someone lying to you about their abilities to later put yourself and your family/friends in danger. Unfortunately this was the case with Tower and his credibility about anything has been in question since.

Tower I have no doubt is a good person with a generous heart. But he has issues with his ego.

Instead of clearly admiting his "INEXPERIENCE" and "EXTREME FEAR" during our last Moab trip. He displayed incredibly idiotic behavior on the trails ENDANGERING some of the group members.

It was obvious Tower was desperately trying to maintain his "RESCUE MAN" status repeatedly ignoring other members warnings and guidance. Later on having an excuse for every numerous incident involving him.

There is no room for that kind of crap with our group of friends and for the type of wheeling we do. Know it alls are fine. Just be prepared to back your BS.

There. I said it. But I think it had to be said.

[PARAGON]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hart1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">... If you know it was a 4+ run, you had to know the name of the trail. Also, he said he thinks... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here is a good example of your BS. No, you don't "Had to know" the name. Give me a break.

Notwithstanding, you are now going to tell me what I think? lol... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You had to ride the short bus to school didn't you. How would you ever know the trail classification if you didn't get the information from somewhere legitimate. How would somewhere legitimate list trails and their difficulty ratings without naming them or otherwise differentiating the trails.

Oh, I guess we are to assume that someone on one of their first trips on the trails can then provide the trail ratings himself.

Just plain stupid.

[PARAGON]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hart1:
Your continuing false assumptions and accusations while amusing, are really irreverent. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Pot, kettle, black? http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

****ing idiot. You are the one that makes stupid assumptions and lays false accusations and lies about crap. Or do you not remember accusing me of "hacking" your personal computer.

[Hart1]

Greetings Dennis:

Thank you for your thoughts. Let me offer this:

I know Towers ego, because I have been the unwilling recipient of the same. However, this does not excuse the implications that he did not go or, he was somehow a liar or giving "BS", or his information did not rise to the level of a Pulitzer for Journalism.

If this happened to you, I would be the first to stand up and say so, if it were not true.

It is my current viewpoint that the main subject of Tower's Topic was Mr. Burk's 4x4 offerings. Secondary were the impressions of the course Mr. Burk offered., and a recommendation to try it out.

Sorry, but I enjoyed his post, valued the information, and I believe he was truthful. If you feel these viewpoints warrant the Paragoon treatment, then fine I respectfully disagree.

However, I found the Courage Photos tasteful and very funny, and all in good fun.

I just hope Tower's "ego" does not prevent him from posting future topics here...

[Hart1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You had to ride the short bus to school didn't you. How would you ever know the trail classification if you didn't get the information from somewhere legitimate </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here is a good example of what a mental midget you are. Why don't you try to put some flesh and blood on Tower? He is Human, right?

I can imagine being very excited and a million things running through my mind as you start out. I can imagine Burk yelling out that the next stop is a 4++ trail, and with all the excitement and things going on, you did not register the name of the trail. Plausible? You bet.

Have any of us been on a trail we did not know the name of? Or know the F-ing rating on? You bet.

You are one cruel, sad (and wrong) dude.

[Hart1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Or do you not remember accusing me of "hacking" your personal computer </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No I don't. Can you please send me the link? Or, are you the one in outer space?

[PARAGON]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hart1:
Here is a good example of what a mental midget you are. Why don't you try to put some flesh and blood on Tower? He is Human, right?

I can imagine being very excited and a million things running through my mind as you start out. I can imagine Burk yelling out that the next stop is a 4++ trail, and with all the excitement and things going on, you did not register the name of the trail. Plausible? You bet.

Have any of us been on a trail we did not know the name of? Or know the F-ing rating on? You bet.

You are one cruel, sad (and wrong) dude. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tower:
We did some 4+ runs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Comprehend much? He didn't say, "I think we might have....."

Sorry, it's not plausible at all. I simply asked the name of the trails. He made some **** up and posted BS pictures. All a few of us wanted was where he went so we would know. He could have simply called "Burk" and had him "yell" the names of the trails to him over the phone.

So, he goes back and tells everyone in the world to see that he was on 4+ trails but doesn't say what they are and the only "plausible" explanation you can offer is that his trail guide blurted it out on the radio with no other efforts at explaning what you did. What's the point of even posting that you did 4+ trails if you can't offer what trails they are?

[PARAGON]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hart1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Or do you not remember accusing me of "hacking" your personal computer </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No I don't. Can you please send me the link? Or, are you the one in outer space? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Why don't you ask Jason for it. You cried to him enough times about it.

[timgco]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hart1:

Have any of us been on a trail we did not know the name of? Or know the F-ing rating on? You bet.
QUOTE]

NEVER, not once! I have always researched EVERY single trail I have been on. To go out and start a trail without this intel can be very dangerous, not to mention a risk to your life and others around you. have been luck to meet up with this group to go out and run these trails in CO and UT.

HArt, I hope you practice this more often. The privalage of off raoding is also a responsability. Being safe is my first priority... even though I'm not a "certified ego inlfated rescue guy." http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Hart1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Sorry, it's not plausible at all. I simply asked the name of the trails. He made some **** up and posted BS pictures. All a few of us wanted was where he went so we would know. He could have simply called "Burk" and had him "yell" the names of the trails to him over the phone. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for proving my point.

I do not share your negativity and pessimism about people. Its not in my nature.

If my only crime is not agreeing with you, I plead guilty.

[Hart1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">NEVER, not once! I have always researched EVERY single trail I have been on. To go out and start a trail without this intel can be very dangerous, not to mention a risk to your life and others around you. have been luck to meet up with this group to go out and run these trails in CO and UT. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You may be the exception to the rule. I don't know. We should do a poll, a good question is raised.

What if you are with an Expert Guide like Tower was? Would you still do all that mapping?

You are a better person than me or the 4x4 group(s) I hang with. It is fun to explore and hit the unknown...Does this fact make you right and me "wrong"? Or, should one now be subjected to ridicule for not knowing the name of a trail or rating?

Also, I 4x4 Mexico a lot, and without the benefit of 4x4 type maps (they just don't exist for much of Baja)...This won't stop me from going.

However, my outlook on this aspect may need adjustment, thanks for the powerful points you have made....

[Hart1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Personally I have never run a Moab 4+ trail that I did not know the name of. Again have you run any 4+ trails in Moab Hart? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry to say I have not. I would like to, one day...

[Hart1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Why don't you ask Jason for it. You cried to him enough times about it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A dodge? It was you and not Jason that made this claim, put up or....

[Fubar]

hart1,
No one is questioning Tower about whether he went on this trip or not. No one has questioned his opinion that Burkes course is worthwhile. What has been questioned are his comments about the trails he ran.

Let me put it this way, if you came on this forum and said you won a MILLON dollars you better believe someone (Me) would ask to see a scan of the lottery ticket. Upon your failure to produce such ticket you better believe you'd get pounded on.

As others have stated here if your going to BS be prepared to back it up. Regardless of the reason Tower still has not produced additional images to back up his claims (as he said he would)

Do people get excited and forget to notice where they are or where they are going, especially when its one of there first times out? You bet. That is not in question. But since he was in a class along with other students there had to have been plenty of time to notice the little things and take pictures along the way. Even if it was a solo trip with Burke, Towers and or his co-pilot I'm willing to bet were given info about where they were going, what trails they would be running, how to get in contact with Burke if separated that sort of thing and if by chance that info wasn't passed on this course isn't something that anyone needs to take. With that assumption in place Tower should be able to answer some simple questions about his trip, like which 4+ trails did you run...

Tower hasn't received anything out of the ordinary by the folks of the forum. You've been around long enough to know you need a tough skin if your going to dish out crap like Tower has in the past.

Tower is a big boy and if he allowed all of this to get to him and it precludes him from posting in the future, well then he will be missed because along with his BS he has on pervious posts offered up useful information.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hart1:
Greetings Dennis:

Thank you for your thoughts. Let me offer this:

I know Towers ego, because I have been the unwilling recipient of the same. However, this does not excuse the implications that he did not go or, he was somehow a liar or giving "BS", or his information did not rise to the level of a Pulitzer for Journalism.

If this happened to you, I would be the first to stand up and say so, if it were not true.

It is my current viewpoint that the main subject of Tower's Topic was Mr. Burk's 4x4 offerings. Secondary were the impressions of the course Mr. Burk offered., and a recommendation to try it out.

Sorry, but I enjoyed his post, valued the information, and I believe he was truthful. If you feel these viewpoints warrant the Paragoon treatment, then fine I respectfully disagree.

However, I found the Courage Photos tasteful and very funny, and all in good fun.

I just hope Tower's "ego" does not prevent him from posting future topics here... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[ShaggyX]

I have done 2 4+ trails in Moab and 1 4. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Once you start doing trails at that level you can't help but know the names. 4 and 4+ trails are something even the most humble 4-wheeler wants to brag about, so someone with the ego the size of an H2 owner would never do a 4+ without knowing ever detail possible so they could brag about it later. It just doesnt happen. I can see why you wouldnt care about names when driving down dirt roads in Baja, but once you granduate to real trails you will understand what I am talking about.

[Fubar]

Baja? Are you kidding there are more topographical maps of the area of Baja then almost any place in the world. Perhaps you've heard of the Baja 1000? You best do a little research...

Yes you always map the route for your self. No exceptions.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hart1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">NEVER, not once! I have always researched EVERY single trail I have been on. To go out and start a trail without this intel can be very dangerous, not to mention a risk to your life and others around you. have been luck to meet up with this group to go out and run these trails in CO and UT. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You may be the exception to the rule. I don't know. We should do a poll, a good question is raised.

What if you are with an Expert Guide like Tower was? Would you still do all that mapping?

You are a better person than me or the 4x4 group(s) I hang with. It is fun to explore and hit the unknown...Does this fact make you right and me "wrong"? Or, should one now be subjected to ridicule for not knowing the name of a trail or rating?

Also, I 4x4 Mexico a lot, and without the benefit of 4x4 type maps (they just don't exist for much of Baja)...This won't stop me from going.

However, my outlook on this aspect may need adjustment, thanks for the powerful points you have made.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[PARAGON]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hart1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Why don't you ask Jason for it. You cried to him enough times about it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A dodge? It was you and not Jason that made this claim, put up or.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>So you are denying it?

[DennisAJC]

Bejeeezuuuus! Alec!!!

I don't need anymore proof than that! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[h2co-pilot]

Ha Ha, big mistake Alec, I am bored tonight.http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[DennisAJC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by h2co-pilot:
Ha Ha, big mistake Alec, I am bored tonight.http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMAO!!! YA FACKED NOW BOIIIEEE!!!! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[h2co-pilot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DennisAJC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by h2co-pilot:
Ha Ha, big mistake Alec, I am bored tonight.http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMAO!!! YA FACKED NOW BOIIIEEE!!!! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"And your little dog too!! Hee Hee Hee...".http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[timgco]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Alec W:
Fred's comming to Moab CP, he is not happy with you. Fred saw your picture chop and asked where he should poop at the Gonzo http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Captain and Bodie have Fred's back. They'll pee on just about anything I tell them too. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[frank6150]

I might as well jump in. Haven't played in a while. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[DennisAJC]

OMG!!!!! That's precious!!!!!


THAT'S ONE FAWKING UUUUUGLY DOG! Must be a pug http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[DennisAJC]

Don't push me into a face off. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[KenP]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DennisAJC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by h2co-pilot:
Ha Ha, big mistake Alec, I am bored tonight.http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMAO!!! YA FACKED NOW BOIIIEEE!!!! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>OK, those two posts are the funniest I've seen in a long time! Damn...

Again, I have to post this because Tower is not responding:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Running a +4 trail is different then touching a few spots on a +4 trail.

BTW, I understand Bill hates H2's. So why would he take you two on a +4 trail knowing the truck would probably not make it without serious damage? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Help us out, ~T. Make things right.

[KenP]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DennisAJC:
Don't push me into a face off. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Nasty. You and Alec in a pee-pee face off. Barf thank you...... http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[HeimenHummer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DennisAJC:
Hart,

Never had any beef with you before but you need to shut that pie hole of yours.

I'm sure you would not appreciate someone lying to you about their abilities to later put yourself and your family/friends in danger. Unfortunately this was the case with Tower and his credibility about anything has been in question since.

Tower I have no doubt is a good person with a generous heart. But he has issues with his ego.

Instead of clearly admiting his "INEXPERIENCE" and "EXTREME FEAR" during our last Moab trip. He displayed incredibly idiotic behavior on the trails ENDANGERING some of the group members.

It was obvious Tower was desperately trying to maintain his "RESCUE MAN" status repeatedly ignoring other members warnings and guidance. Later on having an excuse for every numerous incident involving him.

There is no room for that kind of crap with our group of friends and for the type of wheeling we do. Know it alls are fine. Just be prepared to back your BS.

There. I said it. But I think it had to be said. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why do you keep inviting him then? Sounds like a jerk.

[h2co-pilot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Alec W:
Fred's comming to Moab CP, he is not happy with you. Fred saw your picture chop and asked where he should poop at the Gonzo http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


That's fine, I'll wipe a booger on him.http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

You might want to bring his personal groomer.http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[ShaggyX]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HammerH2:
Why do you keep inviting him then? Sounds like a jerk. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Only invited him once...Never again.

[DRTYFN]

Porn Star Dog.http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Hart1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Baja? Are you kidding there are more topographical maps of the area of Baja then almost any place in the world. Perhaps you've heard of the Baja 1000? You best do a little research...

Yes you always map the route for your self. No exceptions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Topos? No ****. I carry a GPS. But that was not the issue.

I have never, ever seen a Baja map with trail ratings, never. I have yet to see a detailed map with trail (off road) names throughout baja. If you know of some, please share.

Sure, you can find them for some (very few) main off roads, however these are the roads I try to avoid.
However, GPS "detailed" software is just starting to come out....but they still mostly lack the above information.

[Fubar]

Well here's some info that might be of help. You are correct about books with trail raitings they seam to be difficult to find but there are many, many books and videos out there covering Baja. the SideKick maps are great I've used them a lot for off-roading in Big Bear.


Off Highway Adventure Series 1 (http://www.4x4books.com/rrv1.htm)

Sidekick Off Road
San Felipe, Baja Mexico Map
133 miles south of the U.S. border. All vehicles, beach riding, primitive and full hookup camping, mild climate, warm water.

[More Sidekick Off Road Trail Maps]

7 day a week x 24 hour a day
Fast & Secure On-Line Ordering
4X4NOW Price $2.70 (including handling)

http://www.rainbowgardensbookshop.com/desert.html

[DRTYFN]

Hart! = pwn3d!!!

[Hart1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You are correct about books with trail raitings they seam to be difficult to find </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

True. Thanks for the info, but I have all the Topos, Maps, etc.,...My point being, trail ratings and many trail names are lacking in Baja...that is my only claim, and it is correct!

I feel sorry for some that will not explore this or other areas without this "intel"...

Alac, Drtyfn, can't you two read? He proved my claim...

(Some of the best hot springs in Baja were found by an old timer drawing me a map, counting trails and using landmarks! Have GPS coordinates now, if any one wants them!)

[DRTYFN]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hart1:
Alac, Drtyfn, can't you two read? He proved my claim... </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


ALL HART1'S ASS ARE BELONG TO US

[KenP]

Nasty girly girl.:barf:

[DRTYFN]

Where is she anyway?

[DennisAJC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Alec W:
Funny. Will the evil mod (who is S&B) deleat that one tonight like last night too?

S&B is dead. Trust is broken because of the moderation </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Don't worry. I won't MODERATE this one. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[KenP]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DRTYFN:
Where is she anyway? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Who? http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Hart1]

Too easy: "4x4 Type Maps" = Trail Ratings and Trail Names, remember the "Intel" that is needed for some? What good is a "4x4 type map" if it does not include this information?

The maps that were shown does not have this information, but are also missing 90% of the trails out in Baja

I know Attention Deficit Disorder is problematic for you two, but try to keep up! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Fubar]

How in the HELL did you ever conjure up enough brain cells to pass your driving test, let alone figure out how to fill out the loan app for your truck? Let me guess you got your license out of cracker jack box and someone else filled out the paper work for you..

What the F*** are you talking about? Your point originally was that there were no maps of Baja. Well you were proven wrong there so now your going to twist this around until you find some glimmer of hope of proving some twisted point in your feeble mind. Give it a rest and come up with some other topic you might be more informed on.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hart1:
Too easy: "4x4 Type Maps" = Trail Ratings and Trail Names, remember the "Intel" that is needed for some? What good is a "4x4 type map" if it does not include this information?

The maps that were shown does not have this information, but are also missing 90% of the trails out in Baja

I know Attention Deficit Disorder is problematic for you two, but try to keep up! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[DRTYFN]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fubar00:
How in the HELL did you ever conjure up enough brain cells to pass your driving test, let alone figure out how to fill out the loan app for your truck? Let me guess you got your license out of cracker jack box and someone else filled out the paper work for you..

What the F*** are you talking about? Your point originally was that there were no maps of Baja. Well you were proven wrong there so now your going to twist this around until you find some glimmer of hope of proving some twisted point in your feeble mind. Give it a rest and come up with some other topic you might be more informed on.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hart1:
Too easy: "4x4 Type Maps" = Trail Ratings and Trail Names, remember the "Intel" that is needed for some? What good is a "4x4 type map" if it does not include this information?

The maps that were shown does not have this information, but are also missing 90% of the trails out in Baja

I know Attention Deficit Disorder is problematic for you two, but try to keep up! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've been talking to me too much.http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Hart1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What the F*** are you talking about? Your point originally was that there were no maps of Baja. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not true. Never posed this, you dip ****. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Reasoning with you is like trying to give medicine to a dead man.

Your either can't read, or are a Neanderthal (or, you could be both).

The issue was "Intel"= Trail Ratings & Trail Names.

My post clearly shows that "4x4 type maps" I was referring to included this "Intel" i.e., Trail Ratings & Trail Names for Baja, again, I have never seen any substantial maps of Baja that shows this "Intel."

If you wanted a "4x4 type map" of Baja, would you not want this "intel" included?

In my mind, It would not be a 4x4 type map without this information (trail ratings and trail names). Se the diff between Topos and 4x4 maps?

Do you get it? Or, or you so blinded by your wanting to "prove me wrong" that you can't take your head out of your ass long enough to read what was posted? http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Since I am dealing with some ass holes here, let me also put this disclaimer out:

I never claimed that 4x4 type maps complete with trail ratings and a majority of trail names do not exist for Baja. I have never come across any in all my research. I have never seen any. And so far, no one has produced a map that does.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Topos? No ****. I carry a GPS. But that was not the issue.

I have never, ever seen a Baja map with trail ratings, never. I have yet to see a detailed map with trail (off road) names throughout baja. If you know of some, please share.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Fubar]

your a f ing idiot and I'm not going to justify this with a response.

[Hart1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">your a f ing idiot and I'm not going to justify this with a response. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yea, right. Don't disprove what was posted, just insult.

Have you found a map with trail ratings yet for Baja?

Or, is all you can produce is a map on how to get to a Mexican McDonalds in Baja? Or, a Topo map with no trail names?

Ass Hole.

[Fubar]

Ok **** for brains since you can't seam to remember what you typed a few pages back let me refresh your memory. Your quote:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I 4x4 Mexico a lot, and without the benefit of 4x4 type maps (they just don't exist.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ok see you said 4x4 maps of Baja don't exist.

You didn't say "trail rated 4x4 maps" you said simply that 4x4 maps of the area didn't exist. A topo map is a 4x4 map of the area. It may not have all the info you're looking for but it is what it is. A map intended for 4x4 use.

Now what part of that seams to be so damn difficult for you to remember or admit to? I'm sorry if your fragile ego has been hurt by the truth.

Are we clear on what you said not what you meant to say?

[KenP]

http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/757654/caulk.jpg

[Hart1]

Why take my words out of context? Here is the context:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">quote:
NEVER, not once! I have always researched EVERY single trail I have been on. To go out and start a trail without this intel can be very dangerous, not to mention a risk to your life and others around you. have been luck to meet up with this group to go out and run these trails in CO and UT.


(I responded)
You may be the exception to the rule. I don't know. We should do a poll, a good question is raised.

What if you are with an Expert Guide like Tower was? Would you still do all that mapping?

You are a better person than me or the 4x4 group(s) I hang with. It is fun to explore and hit the unknown...Does this fact make you right and me "wrong"? Or, should one now be subjected to ridicule for not knowing the name of a trail or rating?

Also, I 4x4 Mexico a lot, and without the benefit of 4x4 type maps (they just don't exist for much of Baja)...This won't stop me from going.

However, my outlook on this aspect may need adjustment, thanks for the powerful points you have made.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

4x4 type maps = Trails that are marked and rated. Farbar if you can't understand this I can't help you. This was my meaning, and the context shows.

You even admitted that you came up short on findig rated trails, so I know you understood my claim.

Let the readers decide. I stand by my claims.

[Fubar]

dude go out and get laid, relax.. your heads going to explode. Give it a rest. I could care less what you think or what you say or what you thought you said. It doesn't matter and it doesn't solve or reslove anything. All any of this is proving is that you are the type of person who will argue and argue and argue knowing full well they are wrong but you'll keep arguing until you get your way. Whatever makes you happy I really don't care.

[H3OwnerDiz]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Alec W:
anything you post from this day forward automatically gets flamed by the "auto flame the ******* bot" http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE> YIKES! I think Vincent found that auto-flame-the-*******-bot you mentioned. See? He keeps his flaming weapon on the wall!

[DRTYFN]

H2Blondie and I just got back from a weekend in Moab with Bill Burke. I can't recommend this course and instructor highly enough. He walks his talk. He has been operator and mechanic for every type of multiple drive axle vehicle imaginable (including tanks). He covers winching, jacking, getting unstuck and field repairs, all "hands on". We did some 4+ runs. I Would do it again in a heartbeat (and will at some other location) FWIW. You can find him at http://www.bb4wa.com
Did that stroke jog your memory?