I have a serious question...

[BlueTJCO]

So...over the past few years our Country has really changed. The way others percieve us, the way our own people percieve America, and our relations with other countries.........

I've been semi interested in politics over the past couple of years but I still dont get head over heels in it. So here is my question to you older folks out there.

Has much changed (in terms of our relationship with Russia and other countries) or am I just getting older and more involved? It really seems to me that relations with our Allies are going down the **** hole and we are starting to isolate ourselves from some of the top dog governments such as Russia and China?

So a very simple question for some of you. Are things getting worse, or has it always been like this (power struggle and threats) and I'm just now starting to take notice and get more involved?

[Hucky]

your coming of age where Time and Events are starting to mean more to you.

Things are getting worse, but that line is the same in every generation, We as humans dont always adapt to change and most people in America are Sheep, If one guy says the economy is in the ****ter, we all start to follow and pass the word along.

We have become a society of posessions, where people see value in a person based on what he owns, Thanks to Media and the exploitation of the Rich and access to theyre homes and rides, etc...

Nobody really puts values on Marriage, Family, Future etc... Thats all taken for granted.

The generations of immigrants coming into this country has really changed it alot for the worst, The outsourcing of america has really hurt us too, but americans want a deal regardless of the future impact, Americans are fat and lazy, they feel an entitlement to life, nobody wants to work for it, especially the baby boomers and they teach theyre children the same thing, why do you think the white kids of america today have no work ethic, Its not cause the mexicans are taking theyre job, its cause MTV and media told them that you cant have a paper route, you cant work at a restaurant, that would be lowering yourself, you need to start at the top, You have been at your job 2 days, you should be the president by now.

Something has to change in this country.

We are a country of Rich and Poor, no more middle class, only to be worse in the years to come. America needs to start manufacturing jobs here again, farming here again, Grow real food, Grow real animals.

The **** they put into livestock to grow faster and then we eat it, its not healthy by any means. The milk we drink, the veggies we eat, its all fabricated by means of stimulation.

Farmers helped built this country and we turn our backs on them saying, that we can get that in a pill form.

The medications that doctors throw at us, and we think its safe cause a doctor told us so, get a clue, its about profits for the RX companies and its about vactions and bonuses for the doctors for pushing them.

Wake up Citizens, take back America, it starts in your home.

Rant

[Big Dad]

Russia and China...allies?

[BlueTJCO]

Russia and China...allies?

Wow, thanks for such wonderful insight :violin:

[Big Dad]

Are you serious about Russia and China being allies of the U.S.?

[BlueTJCO]

Are you serious about Russia and China being allies of the U.S.?

Oh please Mr. ****ing has something to say but wont/cant/doesn't just come out and ****ing say it?

what? what do you have to say that isn't just some one sentence crap line to try to call someone out on something they already admitted to not knowing much about...:confused: ....

Do you want to explain to me what your getting at, why your getting at it, and then we can continue to chat and I can continue to learn?

[wpage]

Russia and China are fair weather friends...

[BlueTJCO]

Are you serious about Russia and China being allies of the U.S.?

China, Russia, and the US have United against many things and on many subjects..........:beerchug:


hence why I'm asking if our relations with them have always been this strained, or if this is getting worse and worse by the moment........

[Hucky]

I thought this was going to be one of those serious threads, not a lame fighting thread.:lame:

Purses flying

[BlueTJCO]

I thought this was going to be one of those serious threads, not a lame fighting thread.:lame:

Purses flying


Hucky.........:fdance:

It's not a lame fighting thread, hence why I asked Big Dad to lay it out on the line for me to read. I dont want to sit here and read into what others might be thinking, I want to discuss and learn from others that know WTF they are talking about.....


but really........when had Elcova ever had a serious thread that doesn't get HiJacked by some AE or someone else and turned into a large puddle of ****?

[Big Dad]

Sorry...I was surprised to read the ally hypothesis...I'm only 18 years older...but never recall either country being an ally. I think you pose some valid questions. But I think there is too much rhetoric mixed in the first reply. Everything is dynamic, in my opinion, things were worse and seem to be getting better. 20 years in the military with resources on alert (finger on the button) might have clouded my vision. Those days are over...the state of the military isn't as on the edge as it used to be. There is a war, but the threat has changed. I was just surprised to read that someone thought that (prima facie) communist country's were allies. I wanted to make sure that you weren't hinting at rhetoric yourself. Didn't mean to pi$$ you off.

[CO Hummer]

but really........when had Elcova ever had a serious thread that doesn't get HiJacked by some AE or someone else and turned into a large puddle of ****?

I agree. I'm so sick of unrelated subject matter entering into a serious discussion.

[Big Dad]

Easy killer...I'm trying to drink my morning cup of coffee here...I got to sleep in. I was being serious. It's my day off.

[Big Dad]

Here comes breakfast...again

[GLBLWARMR]

There is quite a bit to look at with the question you posed. The first thing is since the end of the Cold War Russia has been trying to get back in the International Community. That country is totally screwed right now by this I am talking about economics, and military strength. The country is still extremely poor and they are trying to pull some of the same sh*t our good friend (not really) Kim Jong Ill (North Korea) has been pulling for years. KJI likes to rattle his saber to try and get concessions for the World Stage. Everytime he comes out and threatens the world with doing something stupid, we have discussions with him and provide some sort of help to that country. Well North Korea is totally screwed right now with all the weather issues and KJI knows that and is begging for help from the international community. Well Russia sees what we (International Community) gives to North Korea and so they are trying to do the same thing. Our relations with Russia really hasn't changed all that much since the end of the Cold War. We still talk and discuss things but Russia will back who they think they can get the most from and right now that is China.

Now China is another story. The issues with China right now is the struggle for Global influence. China and the United States are in a struggle for influence throughout the Globe. Both countries are trying to install their beliefs and influences throughout the world in order to win over valuable countries. By influencing these countries each country we can use them to push bordering countries to follow or align with what that country is doing.

There are many more issues that this but at the Macro level this is just a start.

[BlueTJCO]

Well Russia sees what we (International Community) gives to North Korea and so they are trying to do the same thing. Our relations with Russia really hasn't changed all that much since the end of the Cold War. We still talk and discuss things but Russia will back who they think they can get the most from and right now that is China.

Now China is another story. The issues with China right now is the struggle for Global influence. China and the United States are in a struggle for influence throughout the Globe. Both countries are trying to install their beliefs and influences throughout the world in order to win over valuable countries. By influencing these countries each country we can use them to push bordering countries to follow or align with what that country is doing.

There are many more issues that this but at the Macro level this is just a start.

:beerchug:

[BlueTJCO]

Easy killer...I'm trying to drink my morning cup of coffee here...I got to sleep in. I was being serious. It's my day off.

I know you were being serious.....so was I. I'm not looking to play games or try to answer someone else's question on a subject matter I obviously know much less about then many here. Just looking for a start, a simple answer and explanation from others who consider themselves "experts" when it comes to this subject. :beerchug:

[BlueTJCO]

I agree. I'm so sick of unrelated subject matter entering into a serious discussion.

What are you agreeing with me about? I'm not sick of it at all. It's kinda like wiping my ass after I take a turd. It just comes with the territory :)

speaking of asses..............:clapping:

[Big Dad]

Agreed...and don't forget that the rhetoric seems to focus on the fact that "China's GDP is growing at leaps and bounds" but when compared to that of the U.S. it's not really. China lacks so much of a badly needed "real" infastructure in order to evolve.

[Big Dad]

Oh please Mr. ****ing has something to say but wont/cant/doesn't just come out and ****ing say it?

what? what do you have to say that isn't just some one sentence crap line to try to call someone out on something they already admitted to not knowing much about...:confused: ....

Do you want to explain to me what your getting at, why your getting at it, and then we can continue to chat and I can continue to learn?

"Easy killer...I'm trying to drink my morning cup of coffee here...I got to sleep in. I was being serious. It's my day off."

:clapping:

[DRTYFN]

China, Russia, and the US have United against many things and on many subjects..........:beerchug:


hence why I'm asking if our relations with them have always been this strained, or if this is getting worse and worse by the moment........
Like what? Aliens in movies? Russia & China are only semi cordial because we're so much stronger economically & militarily than both of them combined. Also, part of what you're seeing now is the distorted perception the liberal media is trying to present to the sheeple.

You asked for opinions. Don't get into pissing matches with the people that respond even though you're not getting the responses you're obviously looking for. Instead of asking for opinions why don't you just make the statement you want to?

[HummBebe]

What are you agreeing with me about? I'm not sick of it at all. It's kinda like wiping my ass after I take a turd. It just comes with the territory :)

speaking of asses..............:clapping:

So somebody pisses in your Cheerios this morning and you come here to pick a fight.......

:twak::twak::twak::twak::twak::twak:

[Big Dad]

What happened to the 1st reply...you know the one that painted a picture of gloom and doom? I'm new to the forum.... Who stirred the pot?

[Big Dad]

Mooncricket...my 3 day weekend starts now...good luck in your quest for wisdom. Tact and diplomacy are your friends!

[MarineHawk]

China, Russia, and the US have United against many things and on many subjects..........:beerchug:


hence why I'm asking if our relations with them have always been this strained, or if this is getting worse and worse by the moment........

Russia and the U.S. were enemies almost constantly between 1917 and 1990. There was a brief "alliance" from 1941 to 1945 to defeat Hitler, but remember:
* Stalin started off the war as Hitler's ally. They enteried into the Molotoz/Ribontrop pact and divided up eastern Europe, whereby the Nazi's too western and central Poland and the Russians gobbled up eastern Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, and Besarabia. And then, stalin invaded neutral Finland. During the 30s and 40s, he killed 15-20M of his own people out of insane paranoia and to collectivize the farms (even Lenin did not try the later, knowing that they'd have to kill millions to accomplish it). Stalin, for example, destroyed the food supplies in the Ukraine in the mid 30s, and just let millins of men, women, and children there starve to death to subdue them. For that reason, the Nazis were greeted as liberators by the Ukrainians (and many Russians) in 1941 until they proved to be just a murderous.
* Russia only became our ally, when Hitler invaded Russia.
* During the war, we bankrolled Stalin's war effort with tens of thousands of tanks, airplanes, trucks, etc...
* During the war, Stalin never really acted as our ally.
* During the war, Stalin murdered the Polish government in exile after inviting them to Moscow to discuss how he would turn over power to them after the war.
* At the end of the war, Stalin occupied and imposed his dictatorship over all of eastern europe and much of central Europe.
* After the war, Stalin blockaded W. Berlin to drive us out of there.
* For the next 45 years, the USSR and the U.S. were enemies in every political sense of the word. Both did everything, short of a mutually-annihilating WWIII, to cause the collapse of the other.
* We essentially won this struggle in 1990 when the USSR collapsed (in large part because the arms race with the U.S. bankrupted their feeble Communist economy).
* For a brief period (about ten years) there was a pretense that we had the same goals and were on the same team. That fiction, was unraveled when the Russians violently resisted our attempts to put a stop to Hussein, which was bribing Putin (and Chrirac and others) with billions of petro-dollars from the oil-for-food scheme to oppose us.

There's no doubting however, that our diplomitic ties are currently strengthening with most trully democratic nations. That's about the best we can do. china and Russia, as always, want to dominate the globe. We don't want them to do so. thus, we're really not allies.

France, Germany, Britain, Poland, Australia, etc..., do not want to dominate the globe, thus we have increasingly friendly alliances with them. Sarkozy is much more friendly than Chirac; Merkel much more than Schroeder; Brown is less though than Blair, but Britain is still very friendly; most of eastern europe really love us-we're more popular there than anywhare else--in part because they are trully tasting and embracing democracy for the first time--they love it and love us for helping them get it. Seriously, the trend is up.

Also, it can get only better. I doubt many will want to read this article, but it explains what's really going on right now: http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=9804 (http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=9804)

If you want to know what really going on, what the facts are, and not just the general pessimistic conclusions by the media, read that article. The reason the main Dem candidates are backing off their demands/promises to immediately get out of Iraq is they’re starting to understand who the fundamentals have shifted in the last few months. Sometimes victories are costly and take time. We’re almost there. We really have no dedicated enemies in Iraq any more since the Sunni’s have turned against Al Qaeda other than the foreigners and bands of criminals. We no longer are fighting the Iraqi political insurgents who were previously by far the main reason form the civil and military strife going on over these.

[DennisAJC]

Times have changed Moonie. With kids you'll notice even more.

1. I don't recall anyone with peanut allergies when I was a kid. And now there seems to be at least 1 or 2 kids per class with it. Gone are the days of PB&J for lunch.

2. They're letting dyke and fag books into the schools now like "My two Dads" and "My two Moms" and teaching kids that open wound rubbing and chocolate diving is natural.

3. Discipline is a "Time Out" instead of a good ole' fashion belt. But this change I'm actually quite fond of.

4. People coming into a country that feeds and generously take care of them, and starts to bash it because they get greedy and want more. But going back to their homeland is not in the cards because they get persecuted over there.

5. People shoving their religions and cultures down our necks and call us racists for not accepting it. Whereas if you do the same in their country, they would immediately cut off your head with a steak knife out in public.

6. H3ers bad mouthing H2ers when 100% of the time they need us to strap them out off the trails.

There's more but it would take too long.:D

[CO Hummer]

6. H3ers bad mouthing H2ers when 100% of the time they need us to strap them out off the trails.

For crying out loud. He asked for a serious discussion here.

Clearly the statistics show it's only 96%. :rolleyes:

[MarineHawk]

Times have changed Moonie. With kids you'll notice even more.

1. I don't recall anyone with peanut allergies when I was a kid. And now there seems to be at least 1 or 2 kids per class with it. Gone are the days of PB&J for lunch.

2. They're letting dyke and fag books into the schools now like "My two Dads" and "My two Moms" and teaching kids that open wound rubbing and chocolate diving is natural.

3. Discipline is a "Time Out" instead of a good ole' fashion belt. But this change I'm actually quite fond of.

4. People coming into a country that feeds and generously take care of them, and starts to bash it because they get greedy and want more. But going back to their homeland is not in the cards because they get persecuted over there.

5. People shoving their religions and cultures down our necks and call us racists for not accepting it. Whereas if you do the same in their country, they would immediately cut off your head with a steak knife out in public.

6. H3ers bad mouthing H2ers when 100% of the time they need us to strap them out off the trails.

There's more but it would take too long.:D

Wait a minute! You actually made sense there. WTF? :confused:



:fdance:

[BlueTJCO]

You asked for opinions. Don't get into pissing matches with the people that respond even though you're not getting the responses you're obviously looking for. Instead of asking for opinions why don't you just make the statement you want to?


WTF are you talking about......:lame: I have no statement to make. Just want to understand. I dont see where anyone is getting pissed off this morning? Are my responses different to any response I've ever had on this board?

[BlueTJCO]

Who stirred the pot?



Damn guys........

[MarineHawk]

Are my responses different to any response I've ever had on this board?

No. That the problem.;)

:fdance:

[BlueTJCO]

Mooncricket...my 3 day weekend starts now...good luck in your quest for wisdom. Tact and diplomacy are your friends!

It's not a quest for wisdom, I'm trying to learn something about a subject I never cared about up until lately.........:yawn:

[BlueTJCO]

No. That the problem.;)

:fdance:


:beerchug: .....

[BlueTJCO]

So somebody pisses in your Cheerios this morning and you come here to pick a fight.......

:twak::twak::twak::twak::twak::twak:


Hey beautiful :fdance:

NO one pissed in my cherrios, and I never once tried to pick a fight. God damn, do you all have such huge flaming sore pussies today? :(

[BlueTJCO]

[quote=MarineHawk]

There's no doubting however, that our diplomitic ties are currently strengthening with most trully democratic nations. That's about the best we can do. china and Russia, as always, want to dominate the globe. We don't want them to do so. thus, we're really not allies.

quote]


:beerchug:

[BlueTJCO]

Times have changed Moonie. With kids you'll notice even more.

1. I don't recall anyone with peanut allergies when I was a kid. And now there seems to be at least 1 or 2 kids per class with it. Gone are the days of PB&J for lunch.

2. They're letting dyke and fag books into the schools now like "My two Dads" and "My two Moms" and teaching kids that open wound rubbing and chocolate diving is natural.

3. Discipline is a "Time Out" instead of a good ole' fashion belt. But this change I'm actually quite fond of.

4. People coming into a country that feeds and generously take care of them, and starts to bash it because they get greedy and want more. But going back to their homeland is not in the cards because they get persecuted over there.

5. People shoving their religions and cultures down our necks and call us racists for not accepting it. Whereas if you do the same in their country, they would immediately cut off your head with a steak knife out in public.

6. H3ers bad mouthing H2ers when 100% of the time they need us to strap them out off the trails.

There's more but it would take too long.:D

Lots of things to look at. Having a young child and growing up in general has really gotten me interested in politics over the past year. Never cared much about anything other than how my baseball swing looked, what my batting average was, and chasing tail up until now :)

[BlueTJCO]

Here...........

Let me start over.


I'm just looking for some insight into what is going on in our world today. Politics in general are not something I've taken a lot of interest in in the past and I'd like to see what others have to say about the state of our country as it is.

Sorry for calling Russia and China our allies. :beerchug: ...

See, as I stated VERY clearly, I dont know much about all of this but would like to learn.

[Big Dad]

Me too!

your coming of age where Time and Events are starting to mean more to you.

Things are getting worse, but that line is the same in every generation, We as humans dont always adapt to change and most people in America are Sheep, If one guy says the economy is in the ****ter, we all start to follow and pass the word along.

We have become a society of posessions, where people see value in a person based on what he owns, Thanks to Media and the exploitation of the Rich and access to theyre homes and rides, etc...

Nobody really puts values on Marriage, Family, Future etc... Thats all taken for granted.

The generations of immigrants coming into this country has really changed it alot for the worst, The outsourcing of america has really hurt us too, but americans want a deal regardless of the future impact, Americans are fat and lazy, they feel an entitlement to life, nobody wants to work for it, especially the baby boomers and they teach theyre children the same thing, why do you think the white kids of america today have no work ethic, Its not cause the mexicans are taking theyre job, its cause MTV and media told them that you cant have a paper route, you cant work at a restaurant, that would be lowering yourself, you need to start at the top, You have been at your job 2 days, you should be the president by now.

Something has to change in this country.

We are a country of Rich and Poor, no more middle class, only to be worse in the years to come. America needs to start manufacturing jobs here again, farming here again, Grow real food, Grow real animals.

The **** they put into livestock to grow faster and then we eat it, its not healthy by any means. The milk we drink, the veggies we eat, its all fabricated by means of stimulation.

Farmers helped built this country and we turn our backs on them saying, that we can get that in a pill form.

The medications that doctors throw at us, and we think its safe cause a doctor told us so, get a clue, its about profits for the RX companies and its about vactions and bonuses for the doctors for pushing them.

Wake up Citizens, take back America, it starts in your home.

Rant


I disagree that things are so gloom and doom...i.e. the "stirring the pot"

[BlueTJCO]

Oh please Mr. ****ing has something to say but wont/cant/doesn't just come out and ****ing say it?

what? what do you have to say that isn't just some one sentence crap line to try to call someone out on something they already admitted to not knowing much about...:confused: ....

Do you want to explain to me what your getting at, why your getting at it, and then we can continue to chat and I can continue to learn?


:clapping:

Ok...suppose I got defensive here but didn't really think about it as I'm just a smart ass as it is. Just didn't feel like setting myself up for someone else to slam me as I ALREADY mentioned I am very virgin on the subject...

[HummBebe]

Lots of things to look at. Having a young child and growing up in general has really gotten me interested in politics over the past year. Never cared much about anything other than how my baseball swing looked, what my batting average was, and chasing tail up until now :)

That's exactly right "Children arrive to make Adults out of their Paernts"

Welcome to the World Moonie :clapping:

[Big Dad]

your coming of age where Time and Events are starting to mean more to you.

Things are getting worse, but that line is the same in every generation, We as humans dont always adapt to change and most people in America are Sheep, If one guy says the economy is in the ****ter, we all start to follow and pass the word along.

We have become a society of posessions, where people see value in a person based on what he owns, Thanks to Media and the exploitation of the Rich and access to theyre homes and rides, etc...

Nobody really puts values on Marriage, Family, Future etc... Thats all taken for granted.

The generations of immigrants coming into this country has really changed it alot for the worst, The outsourcing of america has really hurt us too, but americans want a deal regardless of the future impact, Americans are fat and lazy, they feel an entitlement to life, nobody wants to work for it, especially the baby boomers and they teach theyre children the same thing, why do you think the white kids of america today have no work ethic, Its not cause the mexicans are taking theyre job, its cause MTV and media told them that you cant have a paper route, you cant work at a restaurant, that would be lowering yourself, you need to start at the top, You have been at your job 2 days, you should be the president by now.

Something has to change in this country.

We are a country of Rich and Poor, no more middle class, only to be worse in the years to come. America needs to start manufacturing jobs here again, farming here again, Grow real food, Grow real animals.

The **** they put into livestock to grow faster and then we eat it, its not healthy by any means. The milk we drink, the veggies we eat, its all fabricated by means of stimulation.

Farmers helped built this country and we turn our backs on them saying, that we can get that in a pill form.

The medications that doctors throw at us, and we think its safe cause a doctor told us so, get a clue, its about profits for the RX companies and its about vactions and bonuses for the doctors for pushing them.

Wake up Citizens, take back America, it starts in your home.

Rant

My opinion is that there is too much rhetoric in this 1st reply and possibly in your first question e.g. allies.

[BlueTJCO]

My opinion is that there is too much rhetoric in this 1st reply and possibly in your first question e.g. allies.


Take out the fact I called Russia and China our allies and I believe it's a very simple question that should allow someone that really knows what they are talking about to explain it to me in somewhat of a very short and simple answer.

[BlueTJCO]

are starting to isolate ourselves from some of the top dog governments such as Russia and China?

So a very simple question for some of you. Are things getting worse, or has it always been like this (power struggle and threats) and I'm just now starting to take notice and get more involved?[/quote]

[Big Dad]

The nuclear posture of the country (U.S. military) is more relaxed than in previous years.

[HummBebe]

The game stays the same, only the players change.


Most women say if they ruled the world there would be no wars, I disagree, I'd bomb them back to the stoneage...get it over with already.

[Big Dad]

I'm new to this forum...old person with technology. I won't point out that someone is clueless. I'll clarify and validate their question. Things are better.

[HummBebe]

The nuclear posture of the country (U.S. military) is more relaxed than in previous years.

No, we have the Pakistan and India threat, the Iran and Isreal threat, the Syrians, the Saudi's...the east/middle east is where we were with russia in the 80's.

[HummBebe]

Simply put, as 3rd world countries increase their technology, they get a little drunk with power until some slaps them down. North Korea? China? Same sh1t different countries.

[Big Dad]

No, we have the Pakistan and India threat, the Iran and Isreal threat, the Syrians, the Saudi's...the east/middle east is where we were with russia in the 80's.

In contrast to these threats, the US no longer has airplanes orbiting 24/7 waiting to give a "launch the nuclear arsenal" in response to a Russian or Chinese nuclear attack i.e. the 1980's.

[Big Dad]

I disagree, I think it's totally a different bucket of $hit. Just not so bad as "global nuclear annihilation."

[Big Dad]

Are you of the "duck and cover" generation?

[HummBebe]

Are you of the "duck and cover" generation?

Yep

[HummBebe]

In contrast to these threats, the US no longer has airplanes orbiting 24/7 waiting to give a "launch the nuclear arsenal" in response to a Russian or Chinese nuclear attack i.e. the 1980's.

That we know of :D

[Big Dad]

Global nuclear threat had been around for quite some time. Economically we as a country are in a much better position than we used to be. I don't think there is much in the way of valid arguments against that. There is poverty in our country and there is the have and have-nots but what are we to compare it with? We are the free market economy.

[Big Dad]

That we know of :D

I used to fly with the big white whale aka my avatar the (Doomsday machine) E-4 aircraft. Things have changed since the days of having to find a landing spot somewhere on the planet after a nuclear attack.

[HummBebe]

That is a true statement. And, we do constantly end up in the "world police" position.

We are constantly coming to the defense and aid of the Underdogs. And I don't disagree with that, but it always keeps us in the middle of everything. As it also makes us a target.

[Big Dad]

In this day and age I think that people have become more altruistic than ever before. I think that things are much better for many reasons and wish I had time to hang here. It's my 3 day weekend and I have to take-off. Maybe later. Have a good weekend.

[HummBebe]

I used to fly with the big white whale aka my avatar the (Doomsday machine) E-4 aircraft. Things have changed since the days of having to find a landing spot somewhere on the planet after a nuclear attack.

Only because technology has afforded us a better warning system.:beerchug:

[HummBebe]

Oh and thank you for your service and sacrifice BD.

[ROX]

The game stays the same, only the players change.


Most women say if they ruled the world there would be no wars, I disagree, I'd bomb them back to the stoneage...get it over with already.:perfect10s: I agree!! A good ole'fashioned spanking. Time outs haven't worked. (meaning embargos)

Imagine what kind of world we'd live in if we all had the same beliefs...:yawn:

[ROX]

I used to fly with the big white whale aka my avatar the (Doomsday machine) E-4 aircraft. Things have changed since the days of having to find a landing spot somewhere on the planet after a nuclear attack.:beerchug: I hope Iran doesn't have an opportunity to change that statement.

[Hucky]

Lunch time.

[Hucky]

Okay--Game On

[MarineHawk]

In contrast to these threats, the US no longer has airplanes orbiting 24/7 waiting to give a "launch the nuclear arsenal" in response to a Russian or Chinese nuclear attack i.e. the 1980's.

Right. The big difference from past foes is the asymetrical character of the order of battle now. By way of comparison, it took all the might of the U.S., Russia, France, and Britain and 20 million dead to take down the Kaiser in 1918--though Russia collapsed and we entered late.

It took all the might of most of the world's industrialized powers, minus the Krauts, Wops, and Japs, to take down the Axis in WWII at a cost of 55 million dead (we lost about 400,000 dead).

During the 45-year Cold War, we faced the constant threat of immediate attack by thousands of ICBMs containing tens of thousands of megatons of nuclear explosives--possibly enough to kill every living thing in North America (even the Canadians; note that they are very hardy creatures, much like the cockroaches who survived the great meteor impact that destroyed the dinosaurs 60 million years ago, but even the Canadians might not survive a full ICBM strike by the Kremlin).

We still have the possibility of a a nuclear strike, but on a much, much smaller scale. Much of the Russian arsenal is out of action (it costs many $billions to keep a large arsenal maintained and functional; only we can, and do, afford that). India and Pakistan don't have any reliable way to deliver nukes to Omaha. China can deliver some accross the Pacific, but not like the thousands the USSR could. North Korea is not a nuclear threat at this time. Trust me.

Keep in mind that, unlike the foes we have faced in the past, who it us took years and hundreds of thousands of American dead died to defeat (it would have cost many millions of American lives taking down the USSR militarily), with our nuclear arsenal, we can kill every living creature in the Middle East in a few minutes with the push of a few buttons.

Never forget that. The menace we face is annoying and threatening. It has harrassed us and knocked some buildings down. It must be dealt with. But it can't threaten us with annihilation like past foes could. If they blow up something big here, we know, and they know, we can kill every one of them in short order. We didn't have that option with Germany (twice) or with the USSR. China may be a military threat in a couple of decades, but they're still quite a ways off in that regard.

[3Hummer]

everything goes in a cycle of up and down, every country has been that way, and continue to be that way.

[BlueTJCO]

Right. The big difference from past foes is the asymetrical character of the order of battle now. By way of comparison, it took all the might of the U.S., Russia, France, and Britain and 20 million dead to take down the Kaiser in 1918--though Russia collapsed and we entered late.

It took all the might of most of the world's industrialized powers, minus the Krauts, Wops, and Japs, to take down the Axis in WWII at a cost of 55 million dead (we lost about 400,000 dead).

During the 45-year Cold War, we faced the constant threat of immediate attack by thousands of ICBMs containing tens of thousands of megatons of nuclear explosives--possibly enough to kill every living thing in North America (even the Canadians; note that they are very hardy creatures, much like the cockroaches who survived the great meteor impact that destroyed the dinosaurs 60 million years ago, but even the Canadians might not survive a full ICBM strike by the Kremlin).

We still have the possibility of a a nuclear strike, but on a much, much smaller scale. Much of the Russian arsenal is out of action (it costs many $billions to keep a large arsenal maintained and functional; only we can, and do, afford that). India and Pakistan don't have any reliable way to deliver nukes to Omaha. China can deliver some accross the Pacific, but not like the thousands the USSR could. North Korea is not a nuclear threat at this time. Trust me.

Keep in mind that, unlike the foes we have faced in the past, who it us took years and hundreds of thousands of American dead died to defeat (it would have cost many millions of American lives taking down the USSR militarily), with our nuclear arsenal, we can kill every living creature in the Middle East in a few minutes with the push of a few buttons.

Never forget that. The menace we face is annoying and threatening. It has harrassed us and knocked some buildings down. It must be dealt with. But it can't threaten us with annihilation like past foes could. If they blow up something big here, we know, and they know, we can kill every one of them in short order. We didn't have that option with Germany (twice) or with the USSR. China may be a military threat in a couple of decades, but they're still quite a ways off in that regard.

:beerchug:

[DennisAJC]

When the shit hits the fan, it's not going to be about nukes.

It's going to be targeting fragile infrastructures like power grids, water supplies and crashing and controlling the internet. Terrorist cells who are almost certainly embedded in our flock will hit at once.

Freezing society in fear and starving a country by stopping the economy is how it will happen.

This is the new world we live in. You can't kill the source of the infection by bombing the other country when the infection has terminally spread in your own back yard.

All this talk about military might really doesn't bring any comfort.






Mark my words. This is how the end will begin. I had a dream about it.

But it won't happen until March 22, 2022 Noon Pacific time.

My name is DennisAJC.........H2 Wheelin Prophet:D

[bparker]

MarineHawk (http://www.elcovaforums.com/forums/member.php?u=3418), I really enjoy reading your insights and opinions. :beerchug:

[bparker]

I agree 100% it will happen this way. You can cripple a country and never have to fire a shot and at the same time cause mass panic and hysteria which will lead to economic failure.

When the **** hits the fan, it's not going to be about nukes.

It's going to be targeting fragile infrastructures like power grids, water supplies and crashing and controlling the internet. Terrorist cells who are almost certainly embedded in our flock will hit at once.

Freezing society in fear and starving a country by stopping the economy is how it will happen.

This is the new world we live in. You can't kill the source of the infection by bombing the other country when the infection has terminally spread in your own back yard.

[MarineHawk]

Not one country has ever been crippled by a terrorist group trying to knock out a power grid. there's a reason for that. If it could be done, it already would have. Al Qaeda might someday again be able to kill a decent number of Americans in isolated attacks (they haven't been able to kill one American over here in seven years, and no, it's not because they aren't trying, we keep finding them out and rounding them up, and, here's a novel thought, we're killing them by the tens of thousands in the central battlefield, where they keep focusing their attention, because they know they must get the Dems to hel them kick us of out of Iraq or they will be f*cked), but their not going to shut down the country and bring us to our knees. The Nazis bombed the British cities into submission, but it did not stop the British. We bombed Germany off the face of the earth and yet, they fought to the last man, and their wartime production actually peaked in late 1944. If a country could just make another country collapse like that, we would have sent a bunch of Kraut talking guys into Berlin and done it. If you say our 2007 infrastructure technology actually makes us more vulnerable, I don't believe it. When a modern country is wrecked by a bunch of ignorant, extremist f*cks knowing out their power lines, I'll believe it. If it could be done it would have been done. With all the resources of our $13T economy, why didn't we just do that to Hussein if it was possible. In 1991, we (me included) had to go in and physically kick those bastiges out of Kuwait, even though we decimated their infrastructure far greater than any raghead power-grid terror team could. We actually blew up their infrastructure. Why don't we just send some CIA guys into Iran or N. Korea or Canada and shut their power grid down? Not that easy. Further, if they ever really did something fairly harmful (they can't possibly have nukes for the maintenance reasons i mentioned earlier, but pretend they do, could have), and they took out a quarter of Chicago. Not gong to happen, but, if it did, we would find every arab/muslim person in the country and isolate them (lke the Japanese in 1941, only worse). PC would die overnight. We'd blow up the country that sponsored them. It would never happen again. It won't happen in the first place anyway. When any country in the world, much less the USA, is brought to its knees by this mythical infrastructure terror, I'll believe it.

Just my $0.03

[Big Dad]

Right. The big difference from past foes is the asymetrical character of the order of battle now. By way of comparison, it took all the might of the U.S., Russia, France, and Britain and 20 million dead to take down the Kaiser in 1918--though Russia collapsed and we entered late.

It took all the might of most of the world's industrialized powers, minus the Krauts, Wops, and Japs, to take down the Axis in WWII at a cost of 55 million dead (we lost about 400,000 dead).

During the 45-year Cold War, we faced the constant threat of immediate attack by thousands of ICBMs containing tens of thousands of megatons of nuclear explosives--possibly enough to kill every living thing in North America (even the Canadians; note that they are very hardy creatures, much like the cockroaches who survived the great meteor impact that destroyed the dinosaurs 60 million years ago, but even the Canadians might not survive a full ICBM strike by the Kremlin).

We still have the possibility of a a nuclear strike, but on a much, much smaller scale. Much of the Russian arsenal is out of action (it costs many $billions to keep a large arsenal maintained and functional; only we can, and do, afford that). India and Pakistan don't have any reliable way to deliver nukes to Omaha. China can deliver some accross the Pacific, but not like the thousands the USSR could. North Korea is not a nuclear threat at this time. Trust me.

Keep in mind that, unlike the foes we have faced in the past, who it us took years and hundreds of thousands of American dead died to defeat (it would have cost many millions of American lives taking down the USSR militarily), with our nuclear arsenal, we can kill every living creature in the Middle East in a few minutes with the push of a few buttons.

Never forget that. The menace we face is annoying and threatening. It has harrassed us and knocked some buildings down. It must be dealt with. But it can't threaten us with annihilation like past foes could. If they blow up something big here, we know, and they know, we can kill every one of them in short order. We didn't have that option with Germany (twice) or with the USSR. China may be a military threat in a couple of decades, but they're still quite a ways off in that regard.

"I like the way you talk (type) mhmmm" and the fact that you go back to the "Great War" trench warfare. You should have brought up the fact that the Germans and the Brits actually were humane enough to have the Christmas truce in the trenches, share food and drink, and play football. And, then, resume the battle. I think that it illustrates a sobering reality in contrast to the enemy of today.

As far as Iran is concerned...and I would compare Iran with the Nat, on your ass, while taking a well-deserved $hit, at the end, of a successful moose hunt. You just don't want to get any on your hands once you deep six it. I'm also a DS vet...the only thing I might differ from you is that we should have gone all the way to Baghdad the first time. The older I get the more it pisses me off. But, then that's the congress....

[NewHummerGuy]

When the **** hits the fan, it's not going to be about nukes.

It's going to be targeting fragile infrastructures like power grids, water supplies and crashing and controlling the internet. Terrorist cells who are almost certainly embedded in our flock will hit at once.

Freezing society in fear and starving a country by stopping the economy is how it will happen.

This is the new world we live in. You can't kill the source of the infection by bombing the other country when the infection has terminally spread in your own back yard.

All this talk about military might really doesn't bring any comfort.






Mark my words. This is how the end will begin. I had a dream about it.

But it won't happen until March 22, 2022 Noon Pacific time.

My name is DennisAJC.........H2 Wheelin Prophet and MOTORBOATIN MOFO SOB:D

Thats better:D

[MarineHawk]

...the only thing I might differ from you is that we should have gone all the way to Baghdad the first time....

We don't differ on that at all. At the end of Feb., I was thinking: WTF? Why stop? We own these bitches now! Why let them regroup?
That being said, hindsight is 20/20, and I thought at the time that Sodomer was too weakened at that point to survive in power. I was wrong.

By way of edit: While I agree that we should have driven to undefended Baghdad in 1991, the lefties who, only recently, make this criticism, are pure opportinists. No Dem or lefty in Feb/March 1991 was saying "attack, continue the attack." Pure BS on their part.

[MarineHawk]

As far as Iran is concerned...and I would compare Iran with the Nat, on your ass, while taking a well-deserved $hit, at the end, of a successful moose hunt. You just don't want to get any on your hands once you deep six it. ....

There are reasons why we need to give them a beat down fairly soon if the govt' doesn't collapse (not because we need to wait until we have to be reactive, but basically out of need to maintain an effective psychological deterence), but I agree Iran's in trouble (economy collapsing; tremendous dissent) and far from able to harm us in any direct way. They're slightly more dangerous to Europe because they might actually be able to land in missle in Paris or Munich--not New York. That's why the French via Sarkozy are starting to demand that Iran be checked, militarily if necessary. If Iran did anything to us, it could not be severe, and, again, we could simply delete them from the map in minutes if they did so.

[Big Dad]

When the **** hits the fan, it's not going to be about nukes.

It's going to be targeting fragile infrastructures like power grids, water supplies and crashing and controlling the internet. Terrorist cells who are almost certainly embedded in our flock will hit at once.

Freezing society in fear and starving a country by stopping the economy is how it will happen.

This is the new world we live in. You can't kill the source of the infection by bombing the other country when the infection has terminally spread in your own back yard.

All this talk about military might really doesn't bring any comfort.






Mark my words. This is how the end will begin. I had a dream about it.

But it won't happen until March 22, 2022 Noon Pacific time.

My name is DennisAJC.........H2 Wheelin Prophet:D

All the more reason to have a CCW permit. Wait...you live in Canada, is it true that the one handgun in Canada is still located in Edmonton? :giggling: In Alaska the requirement for the CCW permit is gone. Just about anyone can carry. It's very polite there. I'm positive the infection isn't terminal in Alaska.

Anyways I don't think the fundamentalists are going to "freeze" or "starve" the USA anytime soon aka during my, or my kids lifetime.

[DennisAJC]

All the more reason to have a CCW permit. Wait...you live in Canada, is it true that the one handgun in Canada is still located in Edmonton? :giggling: In Alaska the requirement for the CCW permit is gone. Just about anyone can carry. It's very polite there. I'm positive the infection isn't terminal in Alaska.


I have a Non-Restricted, Restricted and Prohibited Firearms Licence. ;)

I've amassed a collection of firearms that would make the CIA go, "Oh hey, that can't be right.":jump:

And ya, there's that other guy in Edmonton.:giggling:


Anyways I don't think the fundamentalists are going to "freeze" or "starve" the USA anytime soon aka during my, or my kids lifetime.


I hope so too. But if we had this conversation in 2000 and speculated that in 2001 a bunch of rag heads would fly planes into buildings......

Let's just say, it's a new world we live in and ANYTHING is possible. There is no doubt in my mind there are very intelligent people protecting the country. But unless they have a crystal ball, I fear we just have to wait it out and see what comes our way. It's hard to be proactive when there are too many scenarios. But I'm with you in the hopes our children will not see this in their lifetime. :beerchug:

[DennisAJC]

Thats better:D

Oh ya, sorry.:jump::clapping::jump:

[DennisAJC]

MarineHawk (http://www.elcovaforums.com/forums/member.php?u=3418), I really enjoy reading your insights and opinions. :beerchug:

He scares me. He knows things. Things I'm afraid to ask why he knows.



He knows things.:cool: :D

[Big Dad]

But I'm with you in the hopes our children will not see this in their lifetime. :beerchug:

Here here. :beerchug:

[Big Dad]

There are reasons why we need to give them a beat down fairly soon if the govt' doesn't collapse (not because we need to wait until we have to be reactive, but basically out of need to maintain an effective psychological deterence), but I agree Iran's in trouble (economy collapsing; tremendous dissent) and far from able to harm us in any direct way. They're slightly more dangerous to Europe because they might actually be able to land in missle in Paris or Munich--not New York. That's why the French via Sarkozy are starting to demand that Iran be checked, militarily if necessary. If Iran did anything to us, it could not be severe, and, again, we could simply delete them from the map in minutes if they did so.

Absofrickenlutely! I figure it'll take a missile ending up in Europe somewhere...we could throw our hat in the ring, AGAIN, and keep the American casualties to a minimum by making a glass parking lot out of Iran and just divvy up the oil. Little bit of wishful thinking.

[MarineHawk]

Let's just say, it's a new world we live in and ANYTHING is possible.

ANYTHING? Well, it is possible that Al Qaeda will show up, create a new type of extremely popular Islamic hip-hop prime time show on NBC; successfully market it; exert unprecedented influence over our youth; and successfully direct them all to simultaneously murder all their parents. Wait, no it's not. Neither is it possible for Al Qaeda to take out our infrastructure and drive us to our knees. Destroying buildings, may have seen improbable before 9/11, but that doesn't mean that ANYTHING is now suddenly possible just because we didn't expect that one.