American Axle may close, makes parts for H-3

[RubHer Yellow Ducky]

REUTERS

8:47 a.m. April 13, 2007

DETROIT – American Axle & Manufacturing Holding Inc. plans to close a plant in Buffalo, New York, that makes parts for trucks, United Auto Workers union President Ron Gettelfinger told union members late Thursday.
“However, we are in negotiations in an attempt to have new work brought into the plant,” Gettelfinger said in an online message. “We recognize this is a difficult challenge, but we are not giving up on this effort.”


American Axle, which earlier this year said it would idle a portion of production capacity at plants that make products for mid-sized sport utility vehicles, has about 700 employees at the Buffalo plant. The facility makes parts for mid-size pickup trucks and General Motors Corp's Hummer H-3.
Analysts responded positively on Friday, saying a closure of the plant would boost the auto parts supplier's earnings and could be a prelude to wage concessions.
“The ongoing cost savings associated with closing Buffalo are significant, due to the very high wages paid to AXL's U.S. workers,” Lehman Brothers analyst Brian Johnson said in a note, estimating the wages at $50 to $60 per hour.
Johnson had said in an earlier note the potential savings for moving work from Buffalo to Mexico would boost the company's earnings by $1.22 per share, based on 1,000 employees.
American Axle, which lost $4.42 a share in 2006, offered buyouts and retirement offers to its blue-collar work force last year. Nearly 1,500 workers, or one-fourth of the company's unionized employees, accepted the offers.
“Following its successful buyout program, it appears that here are now 700 employees left at Buffalo, implying potential savings of around 85 cents per share from the Buffalo plant,” Johnson said.
JPMorgan analyst Himanshu Patel said it is unlikely the union would be able to bring any new business into the plant. ”We doubt that would happen without a meaningful reduction in existing UAW wages/benefits,” he wrote in a note.
The union's current contract expires in March 2008, and Gettelfinger said the UAW does not plan to provide any concessions to the supplier before contract negotiations.
Lehman's Johnson said closing the plant would show the company's resolve to get to a more competitive labor cost structure ahead of its contract talks.
“Closing the Buffalo plant would send a strong signal to the UAW that it needs to make concessions at AXL's Detroit plants, if it wants future business to be sourced in the U.S.,” he said.
American Axle spokeswoman Renee Rogers declined to say if the company plans to close the plant. “We are saying nothing beyond the plans we stated last January.”
“We are idling some capacity at our U.S. plants for the mid-size light truck segment and Buffalo is one of those plants.” Rogers said the plant mainly serves GM, which is likely to cut production of trucks and SUVs as demand for those vehicles because of a weaker economy and a consumer shift to more fuel-efficient vehicles.

[Viet Nam Vette]

estimating the wages at $50 to $60 per hour.



GTFOH...?????? Holy PooP...!!!! :confused:

[deserth3]

:iagree: :iagree:

[Desert Dan]

do they make the cast iron front diff?

[SR1355]

Doesn't surprise me, my dad worked in that plant as a subcontractor installing machines last several years on and off. He was appalled at the lack of productivity and the amount of money the typically worker was paid. He said may where making 140-150k a year with OT. CRAZY......

[Gooey Gaybob]

GTFOH...?????? Holy PooP...!!!! :confused:

Hey vette boy, nice avatar, wanna go make out? :beerchug:

[HummBebe]

:jump: :jump: :jump:

LMFAO!!!

[Huck BB62]

Here's the dealeo, and my problem with the anti-union bullsheot. They'll move the manufacturing down to Mexico. Do you think the cost of the H3 will drop? Hell no, it'll stay the same. Every since this bullsheot NAFTA thing started up, Americans have been taking the shaft. If we have fat cat Americans on big salaries making axles, so frickin' what. They're spending that money HERE. They're buying something that YOU make or sell. When that money goes to Mexico, then what? (basically Mexican welfare for an inferior product, that's what)

I say screw it, keep the AXL plant open. The price of our vehicles won't drop anyway so keep the money going to our middle class. When they move a factory to Mexico, the product's price doesn't drop, the shareholders and CEOs simply get more skim.

[bparker]

I agree and disagree.
I disagee with the inflated pay rates. Sure we do not see the immediate cost reduction as it takes years to trickle down to the consumer. That rate of pay is ridiculous!! To stay in business you have to use common sense and compete in the market place. 50-60 per hr is NOT getting your dollars worth. Lets keep it realistic here.

I too would like to see them relocate to somewhere in the south where labor is much cheaper. They could cut thier pay rates in half and keep it american.

Now as for Mexico, if they must move, I would rather see them go to Mexico than China. Complain about NAFTA all you want as I hate it too - however - it gives us an alternative choice to China which is as we all know the worst possible choice of all.

Here's the dealeo, and my problem with the anti-union bullsheot. They'll move the manufacturing down to Mexico. Do you think the cost of the H3 will drop? Hell no, it'll stay the same. Every since this bullsheot NAFTA thing started up, Americans have been taking the shaft. If we have fat cat Americans on big salaries making axles, so frickin' what. They're spending that money HERE. They're buying something that YOU make or sell. When that money goes to Mexico, then what? (basically Mexican welfare for an inferior product, that's what)

I say screw it, keep the AXL plant open. The price of our vehicles won't drop anyway so keep the money going to our middle class. When they move a factory to Mexico, the product's price doesn't drop, the shareholders and CEOs simply get more skim.

[usetosellhummer]

Unions got too fat and because of the greed and bloat have forced jobs overseas. Thsi has killed our country. A new union reflective of the 21st century is needed.

[Huck BB62]

I'm betting that the axle plant employees would LOVE to be making 50-60$ an hour. I'm calling BS.

In so cal, a frickin' union nuclear plant operator barely makes $40 an hour (of this I know).

Here's what's killin' on the American manufacturing:

Osha rules. They cost a mint. Granted, they save workers, but that ain't free. Move the plant to Mexico or anywhere else, all that cost becomes nil.

Environmental compliance. Same thing. Move the plant, save a mint.

Everyone loves bashing the unions. Who signed the contract? Who made the money, plenty enough money to sign those contracts?

[usetosellhummer]

it's 2007 contracts mean nothing,

[usetosellhummer]

I belonged to a Union, it'a a joke at this time, back in the day they helped, now they just get fat, and will not be able to protect health or retirement benifits in the future.

[hummer_metal]

The 50-60 dollar an hour wage is for what the company must charge as per employee on the clock. Not the hourly wage of the employee themselves.

I have different levels that I charge clients depending which machine is being used.

My 100 ton brake press is 60.00 an hour, tig and or mig is 85.00 an hour because there are added cost in materials and labor. My brake press operator makes 15.00 an hour, where as my welders make 18.50 an hour.

You might think that 50-60 dollars is a lot, however you need to figure adding in other cost. IE; Each employee I hire cost me 5-6 dollars more an hour than what I am paying them, insurance, comp. unemployment benefits and so on.

Now consider the cost to run the machines and the cost of the machines themselves. A good brake press can cost 30k-150k, but in order to keep a business up and running you have to make sure the equipment can pay for itself.

Then there is profit, so you have to factor many things together in order to come up with a hourly charge. 50-60 dollars an hour is not bad at all....

Being a Entrepeneur myself, I understand what it cost to keep a company in the green. In the four years I have run my company I have never made a loss and have never been in the red.

Not to be rude, but I also say how the profits will be spent, and over wages, 100% of it goes back into my company to build my customer base and add new products.

[hummer_metal]

I belonged to a Union, it'a a joke at this time, back in the day they helped, now they just get fat, and will not be able to protect health or retirement benifits in the future.


This is correct....:iagree:

[Huck BB62]

This is correct....:iagree:

Maybe some, but that blanket statement's completely inappropriate. The unions I deal with, the IBEW, Pipefitters, and some others are the only game in town for large scale, highly trained labor. They're the only people providing apprenticeships. There's no "non-labor" companies capable of doing the highly skilled, massive, technical jobs on power plant construction and maintenance. I've seen 'em come and go. The non-union companies SAY they can compete and that they can do the job for cheaper, then they come in and provide crap for service and skills. Valuable time is lost on rework, failed inspections due to poorly done work etc. The non-union crews that come in look like, and perform like they picked them up at the work release program that morning. They steal, don't show up, and in general, are a joke.

I can't even fathom a job like a bridge being built, power plant being constructed, or a high rise being raised by non-apprentice program raised scabs with marginal and unproven skills. Maybe small dinky stuff, but as a rule, the larger more complex jobs require large, skilled, proven workforces.

[hummer_metal]

Unions....

Fair enough, I called NCST today, they have 15 months of school behind them. Yet have no hands on, I know your point...

But I am expected to pay 14-15.00 an hour for their students?

http://www.ncstinfo.com/index.jsp?&CCID=20067761203220881&QTR=ZZf200609181719460Za20067761Zg172Zw41Zm508Zc20 3220881Zs3086ZZ&CLK=824070423214604541&&ac=001&ti=1B8D2F288F09FD0ABB2EE82CFD1F4240D480F84D&ad=646883524&sp=&kw=new_castle_trade_school

I have fired 9 people in the last 6 weeks because they have lied on their resume. If you say you can do it, and I provide you with the machines to do it, you better be able to produce.

That being said, since the industrial revolution, unions have had there place. Today? No!, OSHA has stepped in..

I pay scale, and have never had a labor issue other than not being able to do what they said they could do.

You can say anything you want in my shop, but when it comes to putting up, you better be able to do what you say. If not, your screwed.

See my point?

[f5fstop]

UAW plant workers DO NOT Make $50-60 bucks an hour!!!!!!!!!!!
Best is around 25-30. This figure, includes their benefits (insurance, retirement, etc.) and that sounds a bit high to me. Also a big rumor that many made over $150K a year with overtime. Let's try around $90-100.
I agree with some, the company out of ignorance signed the contracts that the union is working under. My opinion of the UAW will be dependent upon their new contracts to be signed this year. Will the UAW use some common sense, or get stubborn and say screw it, and the auto industry falls?

There are a lot of intelligent UAW workers who understand they have to bend, to drop some of their benefits, or lose it all. However, there are some who would rather hit the streets than bend one inch. Again, let's wait and see what happens this Sept.:beerchug:

[startin\' young]

first of all i am a union worker and i only make about 15 an hour, my benifits are all paid for. so not everybody is making 25 an hour. all you have to do is spend one day in a union shop to see that they are necessary to have. (btw i build the duamax motor) the reason why unions are getting weak is because the people now and days will not unite and stick together, u have union brothers ratting on other union brothers. this is the same problem with the usa right now we are split down the middle.

yea i will admit that 50 and hour is high but u have to look at a few things like how long have they been employed, how much training they have, and the company ageed on the wages they are making.

i think that the number one problem in our country is outsoursing of jobs, i don't know about the rest of u but i do not want to work at any fast food joints because if people keep taking jobs overseas that will be the only jobs out there (oh i forgot the number on outsourser wal m**t will be there)

thank you huck for reminding that even though they move to mexico the price of the truck will not drop, it just makes the big wigs pockets get fatter.

"united we stand divided we fall":rant:

[f5fstop]

A few questions (and statements):
1. Where were the UAW and other union workers in the 60s and 70s, when the electronics industry in the USA was hurting due to imports? From my experience, they were lined up purchasing Sony, Hitachi, Panasonic, etc. Do not get me wrong, I am not condemning this action, I was there purchasing the imported products too. However, now that their jobs are at risk, they are screaming. Do not get me wrong, the last thing I want to see is the decline of the auto industry. Not only because I work in it, but also I believe that if GM and Ford go out of business, this country is in big trouble.

The auto companies put a lot more into this country than the transplants. Most of the transplant vehicles contain less USA/Canadian content, and the primary profits go back to Japan or Korea, not into the USA economy.

For those who believe the country would survive without GM and Ford, I agree with you, the country will survive. However, not counting the number of GM/Ford/Chrysler employees who will no longer be working, let us count all the suppliers, truckers, rail, dealers, technicians, etc. Look at the taxes these companies, suppliers, dealers, etc., pay into the economy. The USA will survive, but it will be a large dent in our country.

The country is not only in trouble because of the income lose, but for national defense. If we ever need the industrial capacity to build for another world war, what do we do, outsource to Mexico? If it was not for the big three in WWII, we might all be talking German or Japanese today. Just look at the tanks, planes, and even machine guns that the car companies were able to start manufacturing in months after the war started.

2. Why do union workers always condemn Wal-Mart, yet every union worker I knew in TN, shopped at Wal-Mart? It used to kill me that the UAW news out of Spring Hill had a message at least once a month about stores that were not union friendly, and a good union worker should not shop there. However, when I was there purchasing cleaning, auto, household items, I always spotted union workers and their families. Talk about hypocrisy.

[K9sH3]

Unions got too fat and because of the greed and bloat have forced jobs overseas. Thsi has killed our country. A new union reflective of the 21st century is needed.

EXACTLYyou are so right. Unions do serve a purpose for some but I agree that the greed that unions have will cost more jobs to to move out of country.

[HummerHippy]

Here's the dealeo, and my problem with the anti-union bullsheot. They'll move the manufacturing down to Mexico. Do you think the cost of the H3 will drop? Hell no, it'll stay the same. Every since this bullsheot NAFTA thing started up, Americans have been taking the shaft. If we have fat cat Americans on big salaries making axles, so frickin' what. They're spending that money HERE. They're buying something that YOU make or sell. When that money goes to Mexico, then what? (basically Mexican welfare for an inferior product, that's what)

I say screw it, keep the AXL plant open. The price of our vehicles won't drop anyway so keep the money going to our middle class. When they move a factory to Mexico, the product's price doesn't drop, the shareholders and CEOs simply get more skim.

Interesting point. Could this argument be used to support building Toyotas in the U.S. because the $ stays here, paying the American workers?

[Huck BB62]

A few questions (and statements):
1. Where were the UAW and other union workers in the 60s and 70s, when the electronics industry in the USA was hurting due to imports? From my experience, they were lined up purchasing Sony, Hitachi, Panasonic, etc. Do not get me wrong, I am not condemning this action, I was there purchasing the imported products too. However, now that their jobs are at risk, they are screaming. Do not get me wrong, the last thing I want to see is the decline of the auto industry. Not only because I work in it, but also I believe that if GM and Ford go out of business, this country is in big trouble.

The auto companies put a lot more into this country than the transplants. Most of the transplant vehicles contain less USA/Canadian content, and the primary profits go back to Japan or Korea, not into the USA economy.

For those who believe the country would survive without GM and Ford, I agree with you, the country will survive. However, not counting the number of GM/Ford/Chrysler employees who will no longer be working, let us count all the suppliers, truckers, rail, dealers, technicians, etc. Look at the taxes these companies, suppliers, dealers, etc., pay into the economy. The USA will survive, but it will be a large dent in our country.

The country is not only in trouble because of the income lose, but for national defense. If we ever need the industrial capacity to build for another world war, what do we do, outsource to Mexico? If it was not for the big three in WWII, we might all be talking German or Japanese today. Just look at the tanks, planes, and even machine guns that the car companies were able to start manufacturing in months after the war started.

2. Why do union workers always condemn Wal-Mart, yet every union worker I knew in TN, shopped at Wal-Mart? It used to kill me that the UAW news out of Spring Hill had a message at least once a month about stores that were not union friendly, and a good union worker should not shop there. However, when I was there purchasing cleaning, auto, household items, I always spotted union workers and their families. Talk about hypocrisy.

I completely agree on this stuff guy. I berate my buddies all the time for buying Chinese crap. It actually saves me a bunch of money. I'll see a hat, jacket, or little tool that I want, pick it up, see that "Made in China" and put it right back down. If I can, at all possible, buy "Made in USA" I'll do it. If I don't absolutely need something that's not made in USA, I just do without.

It's the only power we have. I'll support US at every opportunity.

[HummBebe]

EXACTLYyou are so right. Unions do serve a purpose for some but I agree that the greed that unions have will cost more jobs to to move out of country.

It REALLY depends on the Union. My hubby is CWA. The benefits are awesome, pensions and retirement plans, with a 401K. Health, dental, optical and ADD insurance.

When these incredibly physically hard working people take these jobs, they have to be protected and supported. The physical body only lasts so long getting beat up on a daily basis. Their work lifespan is shorter than that of a desk jockey/pencil pusher.

I don't believe the 50-60 dollar an hour is what they take home, but when you add up the costs of all the above mentioned benefits, it makes sense. They deserve it.

There is a cost and a benefit to every system, the Unions may be greedy, but the men and women who are protected by them deserve the support they offer.

[evldave]

...the Unions may be greedy, but the men and women who are protected by them deserve the support they offer.

x2!!

Now the real question is how to get rid of the overhead...

[HummBebe]

There is a cost and a benefit to every system

As much as I want to agree with you on that I can't. My Father builds Race cars for a living, my stepfather builds highrises, my husband climbs telephone poles all day.

It's the companies who are greedy. They are going to go through all of that expense to move to Mexico, to EVENTUALLY save a buck a share. In the meantime, those workers left behind will become the taxpayers responsibility, we'll either support them on welfare, AFDC, EDD retraining, unemployment, etc.

NAFTA sucks and so does AAM.

[f5fstop]

There is a bigger picture. Why do people, including union workers, purchase imported products? Cost!
What drives up costs in this country? The cost of doing business, labor, supplies, etc. Why is labor so high? Health care is one big item, and some of the guarantees the big companies made to the unions years ago. These agreements should be honored, UNTIL, new contracts are signed. Remember, for years GM/Ford/Chrysler were paying hundreds of millions a year to workers who were not working, but sitting on their collective arses.
The layoff policy was originally designed to keep a factory worker working if the line or the plant was shut down temporarily. However, in the past ten years, the shutdowns were no longer temp, but permanent. Thus the company had to honor the agreement, and pay these people to do NOTHING.

I am not anti-union. My mother was a member of the Communication Workers of America for over 30 years, my Dad was in the Sheetmetal Union, my grandfather stood on a bridge in Dearborn MI with Reuther and got his arse kicked. However, I am against unions who do not flex with the times. Whether or not the UAW will flex in the coming months, remains to be seen. But it appears some are going to hold strong.

I purchase US made whenever I can; however, in some cases there is no alternative. Ninety percent of my camera equipment is made in Japan or made by Nikon in Thailand or some other country. My TVs are made overseas. A number of parts on the Hummer are made overseas such as the radio, the computers, etc. (It does have a large US content thanks to the engine/trans/axles and assembly in LA.)

Unions have protected the workers, and there is nothing wrong with that. However, in the future, unions will have to understand times are changing, we are being based on a world economy, whether we like it or not. The same hold true for corporations. GM will have to learn large P/U trucks are not the answer, and start making some more extremely fuel efficient vehicles. Hell, the already make more vehicle that obtain over 30 mpg than any other manufacturer, and their quality is higher than most of the imports (or so says some of the JD Power surveys).

Time will tell if the corps and the unions learn to bend with the times. If they don't, times will be really rough in the USA.

Done ranting...

[Viet Nam Vette]

Some interesting reading...

http://money.cnn.com/2007/04/24/news/companies/gm_toyota/index.htm?postversion=2007042416

[Huck BB62]

Why is labor so high? Health care is one big item,

Done ranting...

This one item, I've gotta vent on. Our county lets the roads go to hell. They're holding them hostage. It's a great way for them to make people want to pay higher taxes. They're using the money for other social programs and still, the roads are crap.

Same thing on the health care. I've been sick a lot the last few months and have been sitting talking to nurses, office administrators, and even a doctor about it. We're getting fugged face down with this health care thing. People are beetching about not having it and how it's unaffordable and they won't get coverage all the while, they're taking vacations, buying new DVD players, new cars, big screens etc. The very last thing on their mind is paying for their health care coverage.

More and more, with the media and left wing socialist politician's help and constant barrage, people are thinking that health care is a right and that somehow, we should pay for their health care. These people are fugged in the head. Screw 'em. I'm wondering why I, a person that pays thousands and thousands in insurance premiums, have to pay for them too when they themselves haven't anted up for that BEFORE all the other crap they spend money on!

The immigration influx is the other hit on the health care. Going to the doc in California's like sitting at the INS office. It's insane. Three months ago, I was having chest pains. In the er, I was the only white guy. Three people were run in the cath lab to get work. Dr. Rathsanjani says I need an angiogram. I'm thinkin' "nuh uh, my 42 year old cousin died during that proceedure." and elected to wait. My primary doctor and cardiologist later said that nothing's wrong, it ended up being my esophagus and gall bladder. I talked to the head nurse at the hospital the other day at the grocery store he had this to say " Dr. Rat needed you, a paying customer, to pay for the other three before you that had no coverage"

Yeah, I'm pissed. I'm pissed in more ways than I can believe. I gotta listen to this rising cost horsesheot, pay for it, watch jobs go across the border in the BULLSHEOT name of it, and pay my premiums too. And on top of that, the doctor was willing to risk my frickin' life to pay the bills down there! I should meet him out by his Mercedes and kick his phuckin' ass.

HEALTH CARE IS NOT A RIGHT, CHECK THE CONSTITUTION FOLKS! And it darned sure isn't something that I should be paying for someone else while the piss their money away on things and stuff they shouldn't be buying and most CERTAINLY shouldn't be spent paying for illegal alien's medical!

Medical cost haven't gone up for crap, only the load of the moochers has gone up like crazy.

[HummBebe]

Huck....you know I like you....but would you please try to stay on topic....K?;)

[NEOCON1]

Roads , Roads , we dont need no stinkin roads :jump:

[Steve - SanJose]

OT, natural selection is cheaper.

[startin\' young]

i am proud to say the i do not go to wal mart, mater a fact i try to talk people not to go. my friends hate when we go out and they need to pick up somthing little. i make them go to meijer or kroger because i will not go into the number 1 outsourser of jobs. my insurence is payed through my company and i believe that they should pay for it. prople are blaming the unions for the problems but (thanks babe for saying it) the company is not all innocant. plus their has to be ending on both sides (company and union) plus what are the big 3 going to do when nobody can afford to buy their product because the have outsourced all the decent paying jobs.

on the toyota of america i do not care that they are made in america, you will still never see me in a toyota.

[f5fstop]

And I have no problem going to Walmart and will not do business with Meijer. Only items I do purchase from Wally's are items such as car maintenance items, household cleaners, some small appliances, etc. No clothes. The items I do purchase are the same items you would purchase from Meijer. Then again, I don't and will not apologize to anyone for where I go shopping.
There is a lot more to Walmart than that which is pushed by the Union leaders. These are the same leaders who insist politicians like Kerry, Gore, Billary; (gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling).

The reason the union hates Walmart is the fact the have not successfully organized Walmart. As for Meijer, check the labels, do you see made in America? Read closely, their clothing items are the same as Walmart; made in China or somewhere else overseas. Same as Nike, New Balance, etc. The items such as appliances, car maintenance, sporting goods, are the same at Meijer as they are at Walmarts; only difference is, at least in this area, the Walmarts is a bit less expensive, and the people in Walmart SPEAK ENGLISH. Go to the local Meijer and ask for help. You need a UN translator just to ask where the baskets are.

The hypocrisy of the union to state Walmart is the outsourcing leader, when there are others that outsource just as much, just not in as large of a volume. Then again, Walmart is a hell of a lot larger than Meijer. These same union people believe the Meijer worker is paid higher, has better benefits, etc. Per a neighbor who worked part time at Meijer, that is pure BS.

My insurance is paid for via my company and a pretty good size monthly payment from my check. I also have a 500 deductible to meet. To say that a company has to pay for your insurance shows the hard core mentality of many union people. As Huck implied, where in the Constitution is the right to insurance? Hopefully, that will change in the future. I see the companies offering insurance at a cost reduction, but I sure hope the UAW folks start paying their fair share for their insurance in the future, as we do in the salary ranks.

[RubHer Yellow Ducky]

In my younger days I went through 4 years of apprentice training as a carpenter. Most, not all construction was Union built. (in the Miami area)

As was stated earlier there is no training (in the construction trades) except by unions.

Training costs money, therefore Union jobs were costlier then non-union. I will say the overall quality of an ALL UNION construction job was better

BUT

now days less then 10% of construction in the Miami area is Union. Certain specialized jobs like elevator installation I believe are still done by Union personal but the rest (money talks)

In the earlier days of unions the purpose of safety and protecting the workers and better wages were very important. Now days (and there are exceptions) Union representatives, not the general members are the ones benifitting...

RYD

[HummerHippy]

Roads , Roads , we dont need no stinkin roads :jump:
Where we're going Marty, we don't need roads. :)

[Huck BB62]

Huck....you know I like you....but would you please try to stay on topic....K?;)

Sorry Bebe's, like I said, I've been pretty danged ill (bad gall bladder, esophogus probs, pneumonia, pinched nerve) and it's a "sore" spot and when I hear about the axle company going south because the cost of employees and a huge part of that being the rising cost of health care, I gotta vent.

Like Neo says, we don't need no stinkin' roads! My neighbors own a Porsche Boxster and cry bloody hell about our road conditions. When they bought the thing, she even said "Why would someone want an SUV when they can have a Porsche for the same money" I guess alluding to our Denali purchase. To a Hummer, or even the Denali, the potholes really don't matter much!!! I imagine to them, even a chunk of gravel has to be dodged. A set of tires for that sucker is $2500!!!! (no spare either)