Protection vs Performance

[CampMaster]

If you get the underbody protection for the H3 you gain some protection for the underbody but lose an inch of clearance...

http://elcova.com/groupee_files/attachments/8/3/8/8381002461/8381002461_protection_00013.jpg?ts=441EC8D8&key=17845843CD82D163E553114FADE90D36&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Felcova.com%2Fgroupee%2Fforum s%2Fa%2Fga%2Ful%2F9381002461%2Finlineimg%2FY%2Fpro tection_00013.jpg

Is it really worth it at that point? The protection you seek makes it hard to get back to where you could use the protection...

If you want to wheel better in the back country, why would you limit yourself?

[HummerNewbie]

I can tell you from personal experience that you will be glad you have it down there. It gave me the confidence to just go for it in Tellico. Yes there were a couple of times where the second day that I got hung up a little or scraped but HI didn't due to the UCP. But ask her what her stress level was the first day when we got to the first real obstacle. Knowing the UCP was down there, I just went for it and didn't really worry. Knowing what I do now, I wish I would have at least checked into getting the 35"s instead. If I had, I would not have lost any clearance at all with the UCP.

[Ipedog]

If you want to wheel better in the back country, why would you limit yourself?


Because its better to loose an inch of clearance (that can be regained with bigger tires) than to loose a transfer case and be stuck in the back country? http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Just a thought...

[Hal]

I have the UCP as well, but I knew when I installed it that 35"s were eventually going on the truck and a lift kit too. If one of those items are not in your future then the UCP may not be necessary for the type of wheeling you plan to do.

Another thought to bear in mind if anyone is planning to get UCP, it may not be compatible with a suspension lift (or may need modification). Anyone know about this?

I'm hoping it will work with the RC lifts that are coming out soon.

[Edd]

I am twitching to lift my H3, so I have been watching the RC lift development. I was told one of the reasons the lift is taking so long to come out is because it had to be re-engineered because the UCP designed changed from the original UCP offered by HUMMER. So, the RC lifts should be compatible. Now if only they would HURRY UP!!!!

[DarthKarl]

Originally posted by Ipedog:
Because its better to loose an inch of clearance (that can be regained with bigger tires) than to loose a transfer case and be stuck in the back country? http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

x2!

If you are wheeling somewhere where getting hung up on some rocks is an issue, I'll take losing an inch (or less) in clearance over the bill for a new t-case any day of the week.

The UCP is cheap insurance. If you hit a rock just right without the UCP, you'll be getting a tow and a big repair bill.

[HummerNewbie]

Originally posted by DarthKarl:
The UCP is cheap insurance. If you hit a rock just right without the UCP, you'll be getting a tow and a big repair bill.

From what we heard it would be at least $1K if you had to have a tow truck come get you in Tellico. I am a lot happier spending less on the rocker rails and UCP than one tow would have cost me let alone the repair bill.

[Sewie]

Originally posted by DarthKarl:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ipedog:
Because its better to loose an inch of clearance (that can be regained with bigger tires) than to loose a transfer case and be stuck in the back country? http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

x2!

If you are wheeling somewhere where getting hung up on some rocks is an issue, I'll take losing an inch (or less) in clearance over the bill for a new t-case any day of the week.

The UCP is cheap insurance. If you hit a rock just right without the UCP, you'll be getting a tow and a big repair bill. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

x3 Just slap some 35's on there and you'll get that clearance back.

[f5fstop]

I have never like the idea of losing an inch http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif, but it is better than destroying a tranny pan or a case.

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Edd:
I am twitching They make drugs for that.

If you are going to wheel where there are rocks, you need UCP. It's pretty simple. The extra clearance really doesn't matter if you break to the lack of.

Worst case is that you high center due to the supposed extra inch. That's a much better and easier scenario to solve than a busted pan or a rock banging around up in your driveline.

[ketcat]

This a picture of the RP and UCP after Sunflower Mine Loop trail. I know the pictures are not that good but the stuff hanging from the UCP is metal not paint. Can you imagine how the aluminum transfer case would have faired.

If your going off road get the RP and UCP.

[ketcat]

UCP: If I ever get the H3 in the air I will take some better pic's. This one really does not show how much the UCP has been used but it's all I have.

[NEOCON1]

just thro on a set of 35's http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif to get that inch back thats what i did . heres mine http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif i will be putting the UC protection to use this weekend for the first time http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[ketcat]

Originally posted by NEOCON1:
just thro on a set of 35's http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif to get that inch back thats what i did . heres mine http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif i will be putting the UC protection to use this weekend for the first time http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Have fun putting the UCP to use. I put the MT/R 315's on last week and they really help off road. I would never go back to the 285's.

[NEOCON1]

great news ket i have a happening this weekend so will be testing it out http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif did they rub at all , did you bend something ?

[DTHVLY]

Originally posted by CampMaster:
If you get the underbody protection for the H3 you gain some protection for the underbody but lose an inch of clearance...

http://elcova.com/groupee_files/attachments/8/3/8/8381002461/8381002461_protection_00013.jpg?ts=441EC8D8&key=17845843CD82D163E553114FADE90D36&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Felcova.com%2Fgroupee%2Fforum s%2Fa%2Fga%2Ful%2F9381002461%2Finlineimg%2FY%2Fpro tection_00013.jpg

Is it really worth it at that point? The protection you seek makes it hard to get back to where you could use the protection...

If you want to wheel better in the back country, why would you limit yourself?

Get the rock rails but don't waste the money on the UCP. Not only do you lose at least an inch of clerance but those are useless unless your going over really smooth rocks, otherwise there just going to get hungup on everything. Get a piece of 1/4" steel and have it cut to fit, it will give you total protection between the frame rails and you won't lose any clerance.

Looks something like this
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/yotataco/skids3.jpg

[MarK M]

DTH, the pic you show... is that for the H3? Did you make that yourself? How can I obtain one of those protections?

thats a good point you bring up about it getting caught up on things. I already read about the current UCP collecting a lot of mud!

[ketcat]

Originally posted by NEOCON1:
great news ket i have a happening this weekend so will be testing it out http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif did they rub at all , did you bend something ?

The tires touch the sway bar at full lock, not bad but they do touch. Don't know about the alignment yet but I really don’t know how I could have bent something. I was not on that difficult of a trail……we’ll see.

[DTHVLY]

Those plates were made for a 4runner, but you could take some measurements of the H3 and have some made at a metal fab shop. The belly pan should be easy the front skid would be a little tougher because of the bends.

Here's what it looks like mounted
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/yotataco/skids2.jpg

[Sewie]

Originally posted by MarK M:
DTH, the pic you show... is that for the H3? Did you make that yourself? How can I obtain one of those protections?

thats a good point you bring up about it getting caught up on things. I already read about the current UCP collecting a lot of mud!

Exactly. While a plate like that looks good, I'd be worrying about collecting mud and trying to clean it. I had about 4-6 inches of mud on top of my UCP after the last trip.

I'm more interested in something like this.

http://elcova.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/5106011751/m/6601039561

[nmikes]

That looks pretty slick, seems though in other posts on the subject that you might have a problem with things overheating down there as it looks like its not going to provide a lot of ventilation. F5 might be able to comment... is there anything down there that needs some air?

[CampMaster]

So how do you keep the mud from packing in on top of the plate(s)?

or the UPC for that matter?

With the plate, don't you worry about heat build-up?

[KenP]

Originally posted by HummerNewbie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DarthKarl:
The UCP is cheap insurance. If you hit a rock just right without the UCP, you'll be getting a tow and a big repair bill.

From what we heard it would be at least $1K if you had to have a tow truck come get you in Tellico. I am a lot happier spending less on the rocker rails and UCP than one tow would have cost me let alone the repair bill. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>We'd have pulled you down the hill... for only $950! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I've seen situations that if you didn't have UCP, you'd have a real problem with damage. We're going to put something stronger and wider on Big Nasty just so we can ride along the rocks without worrying.

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by DTHVLY:
Get the rock rails but don't waste the money on the UCP. Not only do you lose at least an inch of clerance but those are useless unless your going over really smooth rocks, otherwise there just going to get hungup on everything. Get a piece of 1/4" steel and have it cut to fit, it will give you total protection between the frame rails and you won't lose any clerance.
In your opinion.... and a bad one at that. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I guess all those H1s and H2s with ladder type UCPs are somehow different than a H3. We slide our UCPs on H2s across all kinds of rocks.

[KenP]

Originally posted by DTHVLY:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CampMaster:
If you get the underbody protection for the H3 you gain some protection for the underbody but lose an inch of clearance...

http://elcova.com/groupee_files/attachments/8/3/8/8381002461/8381002461_protection_00013.jpg?ts=441EC8D8&key=17845843CD82D163E553114FADE90D36&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Felcova.com%2Fgroupee%2Fforum s%2Fa%2Fga%2Ful%2F9381002461%2Finlineimg%2FY%2Fpro tection_00013.jpg

Is it really worth it at that point? The protection you seek makes it hard to get back to where you could use the protection...

If you want to wheel better in the back country, why would you limit yourself?

Get the rock rails but don't waste the money on the UCP. Not only do you lose at least an inch of clerance but those are useless unless your going over really smooth rocks, otherwise there just going to get hungup on everything. Get a piece of 1/4" steel and have it cut to fit, it will give you total protection between the frame rails and you won't lose any clerance.

Looks something like this
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/yotataco/skids3.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>No way would I put that under my truck. Just the thought of servicing the truck with that cake pan on there bothers me.

[f5fstop]

Originally posted by nmikes:
That looks pretty slick, seems though in other posts on the subject that you might have a problem with things overheating down there as it looks like its not going to provide a lot of ventilation. F5 might be able to comment... is there anything down there that needs some air?

Can't say. However, if I was to add something to the GM UCP unit, I would add some quarter steel to the existing UCP. Be a lot cheaper, and would not need to add at all points.
Just measure some of the squares where extra protection might be nice, have the metal cut in squares, lay under the vehicle, drill and attach.
I'm not worried about losing one inch http://hometown.aol.com/f5fstop01/images/thumbsup.gif (8.1 inches is still respectablehttp://hometown.aol.com/f5fstop01/images/rollingonfloorlaughing.gif , even with running stock 33's. (More ground clearance than my Vette.)

[HummerNewbie]

Originally posted by KenP:
We'd have pulled you down the hill... for only $950! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Damn, if I had known that I wouldn't have gotten the UCP http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[HummerNewbie]

Originally posted by PARAGON:
I guess all those H1s and H2s with ladder type UCPs are somehow different than a H3. We slide our UCPs on H2s across all kinds of rocks.

The H3 UCP slides across rocks pretty good too http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Well, 90+% of the time http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[DarthKarl]

Originally posted by KenP:
Just the thought of servicing the truck with that cake pan on there bothers me.

I think you could make some great mud cakes with that thing as well.

[CampMaster]

I stopped off at the dealership nearly a month ago to get the price for the UPC... still waiting!

They just aren't very motivated up here in the PNW!

What are the UPC's going for? Can you order them factory direct and do the install yourself? Especially since the dealers don't want the sale!!!

[DarthKarl]

Originally posted by CampMaster:
What are the UPC's going for? Can you order them factory direct and do the install yourself?

GM part number: 12498474

http://www.gmpartsdirect.com has them for $294

It's a fairly easy bolt-on job that you can either do yourself or have a dealer do it for you.

[HummerNewbie]

Originally posted by CampMaster:
What are the UPC's going for? Can you order them factory direct and do the install yourself? Especially since the dealers don't want the sale!!!

I have no idea what your dealer is going to say but mine wanted $700+ for the UCP and $800+ for the rails plus install. Based on everything I have seen my dealer is way over priced on accessories though. You can get the UCP from GMPartsDirect.com for about $425 shipped if I remember correctly. Yes you can install yourself as show below in the hotel parking lot at Tellico http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BTW, thanks again for the help guys.

[HummerNewbie]

Originally posted by DarthKarl:
GM part number: 12498474

http://www.gmpartsdirect.com has them for $294

It's a fairly easy bolt-on job that you can either do yourself or have a dealer do it for you.

While I was looking for that pic you posted damn it! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Sewie]

Campmaster-

I Got mine from H2parts.com for ~$300 Takes less than an hour to bolt on. Tell your dealer to GFthemselves.

[DTHVLY]

Originally posted by CampMaster:
So how do you keep the mud from packing in on top of the plate(s)?

or the UPC for that matter?

With the plate, don't you worry about heat build-up?

I live in the desert so I have no worries about mud and on the extremly rare chance that I ever got in to some I would just drop the plates and hose them off.
I guess if you do a lot of mud wheeling and don't want to take the time to drop and clean them then these would not be the best thing to use, these are better for mostly rocks and crunchy stuff. The UCP would probably be better for mud not so good on rocks.
There is no problem with heat, it's not like its sealed up and I have had no problems wheeling in 120+ degree heat.

[DTHVLY]

Originally posted by PARAGON:
In your opinion.... and a bad one at that. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I guess all those H1s and H2s with ladder type UCPs are somehow different than a H3. We slide our UCPs on H2s across all kinds of rocks.

http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gifDon't get your panties in a bunch. The UCP is better than nothing but if given the choice would you rather drag a ladder across a bed of jagged rocks or a sheet of smooth steel? Obviously the sheet of steel is going to make it easier because it has nothing to get hung up on.

[HummerNewbie]

Originally posted by DTHVLY:
The UCP would probably be better for mud not so good on rocks.

I can tell you from personal experience that the UCP works great on rocks. If your concern is the pointed rock sticking up, well when I (or my spotter) pick my line, I (he/she) make sure it is not going to be an issue. Is it the best possible protection for every situation, no way, but I wouldn't knock it. Everything has it's strengths and weaknesses.

[nmikes]

I've already got well over an 400 pounds worth of crap for off roading... after I get the hilift jack, winch with bumper, lifted and larger tires, couple jerry cans of fuel... I'm not sure how much a .25 inch plate of steel weighs, but I'm thinking its starting to really add up. Just how durable is this transmission... I don't remember asking if it had a oil cooler on it, but I'm thinking that and maybe a triple lock might not be a bad idea. I'd be entrested in know what any of you wizards out there think of this link...

http://www.partshp.com/Converters.htm

[Alan06SUT]

Originally posted by KenP:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DTHVLY:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CampMaster:
If you get the underbody protection for the H3 you gain some protection for the underbody but lose an inch of clearance...

http://elcova.com/groupee_files/attachments/8/3/8/8381002461/8381002461_protection_00013.jpg?ts=441EC8D8&key=17845843CD82D163E553114FADE90D36&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Felcova.com%2Fgroupee%2Fforum s%2Fa%2Fga%2Ful%2F9381002461%2Finlineimg%2FY%2Fpro tection_00013.jpg

Is it really worth it at that point? The protection you seek makes it hard to get back to where you could use the protection...

If you want to wheel better in the back country, why would you limit yourself?

Get the rock rails but don't waste the money on the UCP. Not only do you lose at least an inch of clerance but those are useless unless your going over really smooth rocks, otherwise there just going to get hungup on everything. Get a piece of 1/4" steel and have it cut to fit, it will give you total protection between the frame rails and you won't lose any clerance.

Looks something like this
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/yotataco/skids3.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>No way would I put that under my truck. Just the thought of servicing the truck with that cake pan on there bothers me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

if the skids can't at least hold the vehicles weight w/o bending, they are worthless IMO. The stock bars work good enogh so far for me on my h2 but I have bent them twice (they suck to bend back because they are pretty strong). But, if they were not strong, my tcase or tranny would have been screwed (6400lbs pushing down on alum. tranny housing, sitting on a rock). If the plates are flimsy, they will just bend and still put pressure on your t-case/tranny, etc if you get high centerd. This will be expensive when the aluminum casing cracks!

[Wile E. Coyote]

An inch or two makes no difference when you are on a serious trail. You can't measure it anyways. What will make a diffence is having some protection underneath because inevitably it's going to get hit. 1/4" steel plate is the way to go. It's going to weigh maybe around 200 lbs for the one previously discussed by someone else, however, if you have it segmented, it'll be easier to manage when doing the maintenances. Also you can place a jack at any spot and it'll lift the vehicle up. Very important when stuck on a trail, and you will one day. I have 1/4" armor on my old vehicle and I never regreted it. It will give you more confidence to try tougher courses without worrying about damages. Plus it's kind of fun watching bystanders scrinch at the grinding and scratching noise coming from the armor scraping on rocks and you are the only one that knows there is no damage.

One more thing, when you're on a serious trail, you'll be tilted and offbalanced. It's going to feel very awkward. On top of that, you may bounce a little bit too. Sometimes, you are going to wish that your vehicle wasn't lifted so high. Just my two cents worth.

Are there any vendors that are thinking about carrying 1/4" armor?

[KenP]

Originally posted by Woody:
One more thing, when you're on a serious trail, you'll be tilted and offbalanced. It's going to feel very awkward. On top of that, you may bounce a little bit too. Sometimes, you are going to wish that your vehicle wasn't lifted so high. Just my two cents worth.
Woody http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif You're gonna get change. I know you're not talking about us when referring to the height of the vehicle. If you are, then you haven't done enough research and don't know our particular truck. It's tall, it's fat and it's happy.

I really think our CG may be lower compared to a stock truck due to our width. The problem with most lifted trucks is that the owners use the wrong tire/rim combo. They end up with a tall skinny thing.

Thanks to PhilD because it seems we're set.

http://elcova.com/groupee/forums/a/ga/ul/7751030561/inlineimg/Y/tellico_044_(Custom)1.jpg

[Wile E. Coyote]

Suite yourself. I've done a lot of trails including the Rubicon and like I said, it's just my two cents worth. Good luck.

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Woody:
Suite yourself. I've done a lot of trails including the Rubicon and like I said, it's just my two cents worth. Good luck.

Woody http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Well, a Jeep Commander/Liberty/Compass did the freaking Rubicon. It ain't the end all answer.

Try some real trails.

[PARAGON]

Why are you people trying to force a square peg into a round hole?

If you use plating for UCP, you are going to have overheating issues. You'll be cooking the tranny and transfer case fluids all because some idiot on a forum "thinks" it's better.

We've simply proven that ladder-type UCP protection works so why risk it? Ignorance is the only thing being discussed otherwise, we put 7,500lbs on a ladder-type UCP and drag it across a pointed rock with no problems.

Just damn.

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Woody:
One more thing, when you're on a serious trail, you'll be tilted and offbalanced. It's going to feel very awkward. On top of that, you may bounce a little bit too. Sometimes, you are going to wish that your vehicle wasn't lifted so high. Just my two cents worth.
I think you should PAY after making those comments because they are certainly not worth even 2 cents.

[Wile E. Coyote]

Hey Paragon, I had just about had enough with you're A55, so let's clear up the air about this string of posted discussion once and for all. First of all, it's obvious that me and you are on different planets here. From the picture you posted, you have a H2 SUT. Well, I have a H3. You paid twice as much as I did and I get twice the gas mileage as you. You probably had someone else upgrade your rig and you paid twice the cost of the parts. Well I do it myself and it's done right the first time.

Actually, none of these matters, because you obviously think you have a rig that defies the law of gravity. So, if I offended you in some way by saying that "when you're on a serious trail, you'll be tilted and offbalanced. It's going to feel very awkward...", well that's the reality on my planet, my friend. You're vehicle is well balanced from the production line and it's very nice. I am not knocking that. When I say "tilted and offbalanced", what I am referring to is the terrain. On a serious terrain, it's going to tilt your vehicle. It's going to make you feel offbalanced. Have you every taken your vehicle to the manufacturer's spec of maximum 40 degrees side tilt or even 30 degrees for that matter. Try a 25 degree and I'll bet you'll piss in your pants. On top of that, do it while on an uneven terrain, while turning and rolling instead of on a simulated course like the ones that the dealer builds to impress the potential buyers. That's all sales gimic, just like the crap you been hearing that a Liberty has gone thru the Rubicon Trail...Liberty...HA HA HA HA HA HAAH. That's the five mile of paved trail after the real Rubicon Trail. I know you've never been there or else you wouldn't be saying this. Check out this web page if you want to know more about it. Rubicon Trail (http://www.4x4now.com/trcar.htm)

Hey, just stick to your cobblestone trails that you showed on your picture, and you'll be just fine. What was that you said earlier, "Fat, dumb and happy" or something like that...

By the way, overheating from armor plating...HA! you don't even know how the plate is set up underneath. I'll let you figure that one out by your self.

By the way, I thought this was an H3 Discussion Board, What the fukc is an H2 SUT doing here? Lost....

One last thing, a little word of wisdom, "You don't know what you don't know".
Ponder on this attached picture...

[Huck BB62]

Hey Woody, is that the Miller Jeep Trail?

[Wile E. Coyote]

Yes, I believe it is. Good eyes.

[Huck BB62]

What the hell happened? Do you know the story behind the picture? I've done that trail in a CJ7, a '67 Jeepster, and a Scout II. That's the toughy a little more than half way up the trail, how'd they roll the H2?

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Woody:
Hey Paragon, I had just about had enough with you're A55 <span class="ev_code_RED">You haven't even begun to deal with me, so can the attitude sport</span> , so let's clear up the air about this string of posted discussion once and for all. First of all, it's obvious that me and you are on different planets here. From the picture you posted, you have a H2 SUT. <span class="ev_code_RED">Well, if you'll go look at the pictures I've posted, you'll see, no I don't own a SUT, stupid.</span> Well, I have a H3. You paid twice as much as I did and I get twice the gas mileage as you. <span class="ev_code_RED">does it bother you that much that can afford a vehicle that costs twice as much and put it on the trail?</span>You probably had someone else upgrade your rig and you paid twice the cost of the parts. Well I do it myself and it's done right the first time. <span class="ev_code_RED">take a look at my past posts and all of the technical discussions of the upgrades I've done myself</span>

Actually, none of these matters <span class="ev_code_RED">no, really, it doesn't matter because it only has to do with your own insecurities</span>, because you obviously think you have a rig that defies the law of gravity. So, if I offended you in some way by saying that "when you're on a serious trail, you'll be tilted and offbalanced. It's going to feel very awkward...", well that's the reality on my planet, my friend. <span class="ev_code_RED">so.... why did you conveniently leave out the main part of that where you said "you are going to wish that your vehicle wasn't lifted so high"</span> You're vehicle is well balanced from the production line and it's very nice. I am not knocking that. When I say "tilted and offbalanced", what I am referring to is the terrain. On a serious terrain, it's going to tilt your vehicle. It's going to make you feel offbalanced. Have you every taken your vehicle to the manufacturer's spec of maximum 40 degrees side tilt or even 30 degrees for that matter. Try a 25 degree and I'll bet you'll piss in your pants. <span class="ev_code_RED">Now, see. Ignorance just catches up to you all of the time. How much you wanna bet that the specs is not 40 degrees side tilt, not to mention I have actual pictures and video of my truck approaching actual 40 degrees side slope, which you have no idea is</span> On top of that, do it while on an uneven terrain, while turning and rolling instead of on a simulated course like the ones that the dealer builds to impress the potential buyers. That's all sales gimic, just like the crap you been hearing that a Liberty has gone thru the Rubicon Trail...Liberty...HA HA HA HA HA HAAH. That's the five mile of paved trail after the real Rubicon Trail. I know you've never been there or else you wouldn't be saying this. Check out this web page if you want to know more about it. Rubicon Trail (http://www.4x4now.com/trcar.htm)

Hey, just stick to your cobblestone trails that you showed on your picture, and you'll be just fine. What was that you said earlier, "Fat, dumb and happy" or something like that... <span class="ev_code_RED">Let's see, the closest thing I've done out your way would be out in Moab, like Potato Salad, Hell's Gate, Lion's Back, Escalator, Golden Spike, etc. </span>

By the way, overheating from armor plating...HA! you don't even know how the plate is set up underneath. I'll let you figure that one out by your self.<span class="ev_code_RED">HEY STUPID, there is a picture posted just above where someone suggested what to do instead of a ladder type. </span>

By the way, I thought this was an H3 Discussion Board, What the fukc is an H2 SUT doing here? Lost.... <span class="ev_code_RED">What's your point, do you really want to play footsy with me?</span>

One last thing, a little word of wisdom, "You don't know what you don't know".
Ponder on this attached picture... Yeah, an idiot with a typing fetish. First look above I responded next to each portion of your attempt at diatribe.

[PARAGON]

Geezus Woody. How ****ing stupid are you. How in the hell did you confuse me with KenP and his SUT with the pic he posted above.

SeanK is a stupid ****ing tool that will continue making a complete fool of himself by posting.

[HummerNewbie]

Damn, did someone piss in your Wheaties Woody? I have no idea who you are or what you have done but you come across as someone who thanks they are the end all of off road knowledge. It really helps your argument if you have your facts straight. Really sorry that someone had the nerve to have a differing opinion but get over yourself. You mentioned in your other thread that Paragon is arrogant, WRONG. I have personally met him and wheeling with him and that would not be a word I would use in my description. You got all up tight about Ken's post (though you seem to think it was Paragon) about their truck. He simply pointed out how their truck's CG is pretty good even though it is lifted. Is it wrong in your mind that anyone could possibly think this? Just because you don't have experience with a lifted vehicle that also has a wide stance does not mean it is a bad thing. On a side note, how the hell are you getting 22 to 26 MPG out of your H3 since as you stated you get twice the gas mileage of an H2? Just goes to show that ignorance must be bliss http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[MarineHawk]

Originally posted by Woody:
Have you every taken your vehicle to the manufacturer's spec of maximum 40 degrees side tilt or even 30 degrees for that matter. Try a 25 degree and I'll bet you'll piss in your pants.

Hey, Mr. Smarty:
Do you know the difference between a 40 percent slope and a 40 degree slope?

[Sewie]

By the way, I thought this was an H3 Discussion Board

Um, no. It's a HUMMER forum.

One last thing, a little word of wisdom, "You don't know what you don't know".

Fitting quote. Now look in the mirror and repeat it 100 times. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Oh, and GFY!!! Again.

[HummBebe]

Originally posted by Sewie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">By the way, I thought this was an H3 Discussion Board

Um, no. It's a HUMMER forum.

One last thing, a little word of wisdom, "You don't know what you don't know".

Fitting quote. Now look in the mirror and repeat it 100 times. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Oh, and GFY!!! Again. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Sean K.]

First off, the bellypan that DTHVLY posted is probably okay for a 4Runner.....(anyone know the thickness?), but for *most* vehicles, it's going to need to be alot thicker. On my old Toyota pickup, I personally wouldn't have run that without some sort of additional support, but depends on your use and I admittedly don't know if that unit replaces the factory tcase crossmember entirely as so many Toyota specific skids do.

The stock Hummer one has a lot more rigidity than that sheetmetal one. (Sorry for calling it sheetmetal, but it *looks* thin from the pic). Even if it's 1/4", I'd bet spanning that great a distance on the belly of an H3, it could easily bend in the right environment. Will it still protect your components? Probably, but it's still mashing the tcase up into the floor pan (if you remove the factory crossmembers and use it solely....which I don't think anyone is advocating). The best route is a tubular frame with 1/4" plating. That way the plating does the skid work and the tubing supports the vehicle weight. If the skid that was pictured was actually for an H3 and kept the factory crossmembers, it *could* work....again, depends on the use as well as the distances spanned. Keep in mind though a skid that size will be HEAVY....which can be a good thing if you have enough engine to move it and if you want a negligibly lower CoG.

And I'll agree with Woody....keeping your vehicle as low as possible to clear as big a tire as possible (that your axles can handle) is the right way to build an offroad truck. The "generic" formula for keeping factory stability is usually considered to be "for every inch you lift a vehicle, the track width should be widened by 1.5". So, if you put a 6" lift on, your track width should be 9" wider. Obviously, this "formula" will differ from vehicle to vehicle....it's a generalization that is VERY hard to actually make happen on most vehicles. If someone wants the actual formulas for figuring your CoG, I can link it and then someone with a stock truck vs. a lifted one with offset wheels can do a comparo and we can put the argument to bed. Any takers? We need someone with a stocker, someone with a lifted one and both of them need to be completely honest and able to follow instructions (as well as be able to fab or rig up a set of rigid links to replace the shocks). It will be time consuming, no doubt. ***EDIT*** The one thing we'll need to decide though is: are we really wanting to know CoG or the roll center...or even the roll angle? The tests will change based on what you guys are really wanting to know.

***EDIT***The one thing I would cautiously disagree with Woody about is his comment about "Sometimes, you are going to wish that your vehicle wasn't lifted so high." I'm making the assumption that he's in effect saying that it's better to leave the vehicle stock.....the problem is (especially with a full bodied vehicle): you have to lift it to clear the tires you NEED to run the trails you want. Yes, you may end up paying in terms of stability, but it's one of those tradeoffs you have to make to have the vehicle do what you want (and maybe that's what KenP and Paragon are trying to say). Your only other option is to break out the plasma, sawzall and welder and it would seem that most Hummer owners aren't quite ready to take that leap....yet. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ****


As for overheating with a skid pan.....How do you guys that are saying that come to that conclusion? What exactly are you overheating? It certainly isn't going to be the engine. Yes, you may heat up the floor boards and any wiring in the covered area more (especially if the catalytic converter is housed between the floor and skid), but it's highly unlikely that there's anything that will be damaged by the relatively minor increase in temperature....and that includes the transmission and tcase. Again, easy test if we can find a few volunteers....one equipped with no skid and one with a skid in the same local area. That is, if you guys really wanna know for sure instead of merely speculating about something with which you have no experience.

All you guys claiming that rocks never get stuck between the factory UCP bars, obviously don't wheel where I do. That design's a liability, but it's easily solved with some plate if your brand of 4wheeling necessitates it. And yes, it does make it harder to clean up (as well as service).....I'm willing to sacrifice a little inconvenience for better performance and protection.

Oh, and Liberty's are bad ass. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Here's mine.


It's got a 1/2" thick, 12"x25.5" skid under my tcases. It also protects the front and rear drivelines (to an extent; the lower links do the rest since my DLs are both above the lower links). The only overheating problems I anticipate will be having the exhaust running so close to my floorboards....but that's why they make header/exhaust wrap and floor insultation that's only 30 thousandths thick and is heat resistant to 2100º. Just route any wiring away from this area or encase it in fire-retardant loom (275º heat protection)....all these products cost less than a bill total.

Sean

***EDIT*** Any chance "Paragon" has a (I think) yellow H2 that he posted pics of on Pirate4x4.com where he was climbing Escalator? If so, I'm the same "Sean" that sent you a PM about all the a-holes making snide comments in your thread. If it's you....hope all's well. :wave: (guess you guys don't have the "wave" icon).

[HummerNewbie]

Originally posted by Sean K.:
All you guys claiming that rocks never get stuck between the factory UCP bars, obviously don't wheel where I do.

Pretty sure that nobody claimed they never get stuck between the UCP bars. That will certainly happen from time to time. I'm not going to go back through the whole thread but maybe you were referring to my comment that I know from experience that the OEM UCP will slide on rocks just fine. That was in response to a claim that they won't.

Originally posted by Sean K.:
Oh, and Liberty's are bad ass. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Here's mine.


Not sure you can call that a liberty anymore http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
Pretty cool though http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by HummerNewbie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sean K.:
All you guys claiming that rocks never get stuck between the factory UCP bars, obviously don't wheel where I do.

Pretty sure that nobody claimed they never get stuck between the UCP bars. That will certainly happen from time to time. I'm not going to go back through the whole thread but maybe you were referring to my comment that I know from experience that the OEM UCP will slide on rocks just fine. That was in response to a claim that they won't.

Originally posted by Sean K.:
Oh, and Liberty's are bad ass. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Here's mine.


Not sure you can call that a liberty anymore http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
Pretty cool though http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, my mistake. I didn't realize you'd take my comment about "never" so literally. I typed alot of crap above and have edited several times now to try and make it as clear as possible. Poor choice of word on my part....again, my apologies. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif That particular comment was really in response to, "we put 7,500lbs on a ladder-type UCP and drag it across a pointed rock with no problems."

What I meant was on the trails I've run, (and hopefully many H3s will begin running as modifications permit), it would be happening quite frequently with a ladder type support. Someone mentioned earlier about picking good lines and tire placement.....true in a perfect world, you can pick your way through and the holes in the undercarriage will be a non-issue.....but Murphy and that f<span class="ev_code_BLACK">uck</span>ed up law of his always seems to show up at the worst possible time and a tire slips off line and then you're stuck. Know what I mean? http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oh, and the hood and grill aren't even really Liberty when you get down to it.....just narrowed, custom fiberglass units from Campbell Enterprises.

Take care,
Sean

[HummerNewbie]

Originally posted by Sean K.:
Sorry, my mistake. I didn't realize you'd take my comment about "never" so literally. I typed alot of crap above and have edited several times now to try and make it as clear as possible. Poor choice of word on my part....again, my apologies. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif What I meant was on the trails I run, (and hopefully many H3s will begin running as modifications permit), it would be happening quite frequently. Someone mentioned earlier about picking good lines and tire placement.....true in a perfect world, you can pick your way through and the holes in the undercarriage will be a non-issue.....but Murphy and that ****ed up law of his always seems to show up at the worst possible time and a tire slips off line and then you're stuck. Know what I mean? http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oh, and the hood and grill aren't even really Liberty when you get down to it.....just narrowed, custom fiberglass units from Campbell Enterprises.

Take care,
Sean

No need to apologize for the "never" http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Is your "Liberty" finished? Any pics of it on the trails. Looks pretty bad ass.

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by HummerNewbie:

No need to apologize for the "never" http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Is your "Liberty" finished? Any pics of it on the trails. Looks pretty bad ass.

No, I should be working on it right now instead of screwing around on the net. It's pretty much an abortion baby anyway....no Jeep parts on it at all, lol. Hope to have it done this summer....but we'll see. I'm already WAAAAY behind schedule.

***EDIT*** Weird. Words like cockfag are not filtered on this site but the "F" word is?

Sean

[h2co-pilot]

Originally posted by Sean K.:


***EDIT*** Weird. Words like cockfag are not filtered on this site but the "F" word is?

Sean

F<span class="ev_code_BLACK">uck</span> yeah, <span class="ev_code_BLACK">f</span>uck is bad. Cockfag however, is a mandatory word for you Zonies, we didn't want you to feel awkward.http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by h2co-pilot:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sean K.:


***EDIT*** Weird. Words like cockfag are not filtered on this site but the "F" word is?

Sean


F<span class="ev_code_BLACK">uck</span> yeah, <span class="ev_code_BLACK">f</span>uck is bad. Cockfag however, is a mandatory word for you Zonies, we didn't want you to feel awkward.http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Okay, what's the secret? How'd you post it? I use the word **** in almost every sentence (that I actually speak)....sorry, I have a potty mouth. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

***EDIT*** figured it out. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

F<span class="ev_code_BLACK">uck</span> http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[HummerNewbie]

Originally posted by Sean K.:


***EDIT*** figured it out. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

F<span class="ev_code_BLACK">uck</span> http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S<span class="ev_code_BLACK">hit</span> yeah you did http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Steve - SanJose]

"Protection vs. Performance", sounds like the new slogan for a condom commercial.

S.

[f5fstop]

Originally posted by Sean K.:
As for overheating with a skid pan.....How do you guys that are saying that come to that conclusion? What exactly are you overheating? It certainly isn't going to be the engine. Yes, you may heat up the floor boards and any wiring in the covered area more (especially if the catalytic converter is housed between the floor and skid), but it's highly unlikely that there's anything that will be damaged by the relatively minor increase in temperature....and that includes the transmission and tcase. Again, easy test if we can find a few volunteers....one equipped with no skid and one with a skid in the same local area. That is, if you guys really wanna know for sure instead of merely speculating about something with which you have no experience.

Overheated trans fluid is one of the biggest killers of an auto trans. In addition, the pan itself is used as a cooling medium (finned pans increase cooling efficiency). The damage to the trans, due to overheated fluid, will not be done in a few thousand miles, it will be done in 20-30K miles. The fluid will degrade over a period of time, causing internal trans failures.

Trans fluid has a frictional coefficient designed into it, that is why there are so many different trans fluids on the market. Heat, is one of the major factors in deterioration of trans fluid. Heat, over a period of time causes the frictional coefficient of the trans fluid to change, in the case of the 4L transmissions used on GM vehicles, it cause the fluid to become more slippery. The lower frictional coefficient will cause clutches to slip, and this initial slippage will not be that noticeable, since it is happening slowly over a period of time.

Heat also causes the viscosity to change as it does with engine oil. The designed life of trans fluid is calculated on the maximum temps the trans will be normally run, that is one reason why many vehicles required a fluid change on vehicles that are not run at high speed (taxi cabs, police cars, delivery vehicles, etc.). Running a vehicle at low speeds does not create enough airflow past the pan and the trans itself. (Same with an external trans fluid cooler.)

Therefore, the easy test of a few days travel will prove nothing, other than the trans fluid is or is not running hotter than normal. Pretty sure I can save your trouble, since enclosing the trans in a shield will cause it to run hotter, due to the trans heat itself not escaping, and adding the heat buildup from the cat.

I would recommend to anyone adding a full underbody shield to at least change their trans fluid every 10-15K. In fact, I would recommend a full trans fluid flush. A normal trans fluid change only replaces the fluid in the pan, the remainder of the old trans fluid is still in the passages, clutches and servos of the trans. In fact, on the 4L70 trans used on the H3, the pan will contain 5 quarts of fluid, the remainder of the trans hold an additional 6 quarts of fluid. Therefore, a fluid and fill is the only way to replace all the damaged fluid.

At this time, the trans engineers at GM I know would never recommend a full body undershield, unless it is bolted on for minimum use during severe off-road driving. That is probably the reason GM Accessory parts sells only the ladder type, since it is assumed most will leave the underbody protection on all the time.

[ketcat]

f5f

Thanks for the straight scoop. I'm sticking with the UPC, it works for me.

[NEOCON1]

Originally posted by ketcat:
f5f

Thanks for the straight scoop. I'm sticking with the UPC, it works for me.

X2 http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[nmikes]

X3

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Sean K.:
That particular comment was really in response to, "we put 7,500lbs on a ladder-type UCP and drag it across a pointed rock with no problems."

What I meant was on the trails I've run, (and hopefully many H3s will begin running as modifications permit), it would be happening quite frequently with a ladder type support. Someone mentioned earlier about picking good lines and tire placement.....true in a perfect world, you can pick your way through and the holes in the undercarriage will be a non-issue.....but Murphy and that f<span class="ev_code_BLACK">uck</span>ed up law of his always seems to show up at the worst possible time and a tire slips off line and then you're stuck. Know what I mean? http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Does the H3 forum just draw the dumbasses out out of the woodwork or what?

So, on the trails you run, rocks are somehow worse than any others that anybody else does. They just are soooo badass that you would have problems frequently if you had a ladder type UCP, huh? ****ing idiot.

[CampMaster]

X4

[nmikes]

Also just wondering, does the H3 have an oil cooler for the transmission, of not would this be worth looking into? And is a triple lock torque converter a bit overkill for the transmission seeing on how its only having to deal with a 220 hp engine, even if you do bolt on another 1500 lbs of offroading gear?

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sean K.:
That particular comment was really in response to, "we put 7,500lbs on a ladder-type UCP and drag it across a pointed rock with no problems."

What I meant was on the trails I've run, (and hopefully many H3s will begin running as modifications permit), it would be happening quite frequently with a ladder type support. Someone mentioned earlier about picking good lines and tire placement.....true in a perfect world, you can pick your way through and the holes in the undercarriage will be a non-issue.....but Murphy and that f<span class="ev_code_BLACK">uck</span>ed up law of his always seems to show up at the worst possible time and a tire slips off line and then you're stuck. Know what I mean? http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Does the H3 forum just draw the dumbasses out out of the woodwork or what?

So, on the trails you run, rocks are somehow worse than any others that anybody else does. They just are soooo badass that you would have problems frequently if you had a ladder type UCP, huh? ****ing idiot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Paragon,

Wow, you're a pleasant individual. Anywho....are you the guy from Pirate or not? Just curious, as if it was you (search is down) you weren't a jerk there. Again, if it is you....must be that you're at "home" here so you think you can be an internet bully. That's cool. Not everyone's gonna get along I guess.

If you doubt what I've said, bring your UCP equipped H3 (I have no idea what sort of Hummer you have....perhaps it's an H2 or H1; doesn't really matter)....to AZ and we'll run some trails and you can see for yourself what I mean. (I figure you'll probably say it's too far....perfectly good excuse). http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

***EDIT*** Here's an example of trails we run in AZ and while it may not be the best example of what we're talking about.....I'm sure you can get a feel for the kind of wheeling.



It may or may not work....I don't think Pirate will allow direct linking so you may have to copy and paste. *****

I'm just here to get other people involved in 4 wheeling and to have a good time and meet people. If my comments and experience are not welcome or wanted...fine, I'll leave.

f5fstop,

You make a very valid point especially concerning autos.....however, none of you have actually run a full belly pan, correct? I know several people running them on everything from small SUVs, to buggies to fullsizes....yes, heat builds up more at slow speed without air flow....

What I'm saying is: it's not significant enough to cause a transmission failure, IME. As you eloquently stated: transmission fluid and oils both have ranges of acceptable operating temperature. Unless we did a real test to find out just what the temps are running without a full belly skid and then with....how can ANYONE say for certain it will raise the temperature above the acceptable range? The obvious answer is: you can't. That is just my opinion though and you guys are welcome to your own (not that you need my permission).

I apologize if I ruffled any feathers with my comments. That was not my intent. I was only trying to give my own personal experience with belly pans as well as some general comments about lift height vs. CoG.

Take care,
Sean

[Kevin B]

Sean, I have been to Mesa with my wife twice. Once to a wedding and again to visit relatives. Where do you guys ride out there?

[Sean K.]

We run several different areas within an hour to 2 hr. drive from Mesa.

We go to the Florence Junction area....trails like Highway to Hell, Elvis, Upper and Lower Woodpecker, Martinez Canyon, Axle Alley, Overdose, Bad Medicine, Upper Ajax, Woody's Wash, Miner's Revenge, etc.

We go down to some private land in the Oracle area too.

We head to Table Mesa for trails like Matrix, Anaconda, Upper and Lower Terminator, Die Hard, Judgement Day, Annihilator, Armageddon (before it was closed), Predator, Collateral Damage, and Twister.

There's some new areas up past Black Canyon City that are really extreme....Bumble Bee area. I haven't been....my old wheeling rig wasn't set up for that extreme of wheeling. I was only running D44 axles....1 Ton running gear is mandatory up there.

On the west side we go to the White Tanks....Ruler and Asylum are the best trails in that area. Asylum is INSANE, but will be closed very soon.

We have a trail right outside Apache Junction called Willow Springs. And we even have a few near Payson and Gisela. The one in Payson is about as hard as they come....it's called Skull Crusher.

If you're in the area and want to do some wheeling, (assuming my junk is up and running by then) please don't hesitate to contact me. I like wheeling with all types of vehicles; I'm not snobby about it. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Take care,
Sean

[CampMaster]

Pans may work in the desert. I didn't wheel too much out there, though when I did it was bone dry.

I don't think that a pan is a viable option in the PNW. It's just too wet and muddy. I beleive mus would pack up over the pan. So unless you trailer it too and from the trails - your going to have some Hwy heat building up without any air circulating to cool it.

I do understand your suposition about the pan providing more universal protection, since the ladder inherantly provides hole which rocks could hang up on. No matter how good the spotter or the line, eventually you will get stuck.

Every wheeler must balance the type of wheeling and terrain with the pros/cons of lifting to improve approach/break over/departure angles. If you don't encounter side hills often, the COG becomes less critical.

Manny ways/types of wheeling... means there isn't one solution for all situations.

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Sean K.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sean K.:
That particular comment was really in response to, "we put 7,500lbs on a ladder-type UCP and drag it across a pointed rock with no problems."

What I meant was on the trails I've run, (and hopefully many H3s will begin running as modifications permit), it would be happening quite frequently with a ladder type support. Someone mentioned earlier about picking good lines and tire placement.....true in a perfect world, you can pick your way through and the holes in the undercarriage will be a non-issue.....but Murphy and that f<span class="ev_code_BLACK">uck</span>ed up law of his always seems to show up at the worst possible time and a tire slips off line and then you're stuck. Know what I mean? http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Does the H3 forum just draw the dumbasses out out of the woodwork or what?

So, on the trails you run, rocks are somehow worse than any others that anybody else does. They just are soooo badass that you would have problems frequently if you had a ladder type UCP, huh? ****ing idiot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Paragon,

Wow, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah

Take care,
Sean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Let us know when you wheeled somewhere besides your own backyard

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Sean K.:
More BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH =ing no real experince

Take care,
Sean sure thing there sport

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by CampMaster:
Pans may work in the desert. I didn't wheel too much out there, though when I did it was bone dry.

I don't think that a pan is a viable option in the PNW. It's just too wet and muddy. I beleive mus would pack up over the pan. So unless you trailer it too and from the trails - your going to have some Hwy heat building up without any air circulating to cool it.

I do understand your suposition about the pan providing more universal protection, since the ladder inherantly provides hole which rocks could hang up on. No matter how good the spotter or the line, eventually you will get stuck.

Every wheeler must balance the type of wheeling and terrain with the pros/cons of lifting to improve approach/break over/departure angles. If you don't encounter side hills often, the COG becomes less critical.

Manny ways/types of wheeling... means there isn't one solution for all situations.

I agree about the mud.....unfortunately, I get very myopic with my viewpoint. I've lived all over the US (MT, NM, CO, OK, AR, AZ, CA, UT) and wheeled all sorts of terrain, but I've been heavily involved with rockcrawling for about the last 8 years or so (even competitions) and I tend to only think in those terms now, so I apologize again for my comments.

I also trailer my junk everywhere now....have been for about the last 4-5 years I guess. We just experience too much metal fatigue that you just can't see to safely run on the road. (Not all of the bellypan experience I was commenting on was on trailer queens....but the majority was to be 100% honest).

Sean

[Kevin B]

If you're in the area and want to do some wheeling, (assuming my junk is up and running by then) please don't hesitate to contact me. I like wheeling with all types of vehicles; I'm not snobby about it. Smile

sounds like fun but I doubt I will EVER make that trip again in the summer time. I honstly dont know how people survive out there during the summer months. If I remember correctly it was something like 118/122 degrees http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif. Thanks for the offer, if we come out there again that sounds like more fun than roasting with the relitives http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by Kevin B:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If you're in the area and want to do some wheeling, (assuming my junk is up and running by then) please don't hesitate to contact me. I like wheeling with all types of vehicles; I'm not snobby about it. Smile

sounds like fun but I doubt I will EVER make that trip again in the summer time. I honstly dont know how people survive out there during the summer months. If I remember correctly it was something like 118/122 degrees http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif. Thanks for the offer, if we come out there again that sounds like more fun than roasting with the relitives http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya, we don't wheel during the summer much. If we do, the run usually starts at 10 pm. Most vehicles here that 4 wheel run "rock lights"....just some offroad lights or bright LEDs that illuminate just a few feet around each tire.

Wheeling season is typically from mid-October to around early May.

I always say Phoenix is 6 months of heaven, 6 months of hell. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sean

[f5fstop]

Originally posted by Sean K.:


http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmen...5&stc=1&d=1143223579 (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=236035&stc=1&d=1143223579)


f5fstop,

You make a very valid point especially concerning autos.....however, none of you have actually run a full belly pan, correct? I know several people running them on everything from small SUVs, to buggies to fullsizes....yes, heat builds up more at slow speed without air flow....

What I'm saying is: it's not significant enough to cause a transmission failure, IME. As you eloquently stated: transmission fluid and oils both have ranges of acceptable operating temperature. Unless we did a real test to find out just what the temps are running without a full belly skid and then with....how can ANYONE say for certain it will raise the temperature above the acceptable range? The obvious answer is: you can't. That is just my opinion though and you guys are welcome to your own (not that you need my permission).

I apologize if I ruffled any feathers with my comments. That was not my intent. I was only trying to give my own personal experience with belly pans as well as some general comments about lift height vs. CoG.

Take care,
Sean

Maybe I should have further qualified my response since it appears to have been missed.
First, I'm talking an H3, and probably goes over to an H2 and H1, but I will be first to state I'm not that familiar with these vehicles.
Second, I'm talking a vehicle with a full body, not a frame unit. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to note that the type of vehicle you are showing in the photos, would have plenty of airflow from top of the vehicle since there is NO body. In addition, heat rises, and it appears there is no place to trap heat and cook the fluid. I don't believe you would be driving this down Interstate 10 at 75 mph, or doing any city, stop and go driving.
I also believe that running rigs like that would tend to blow the trans for other reasons, thus when it is rebuilt, I would hope you would use new fluid. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Now, let me explain something. ALL GM authorized accessories have to be tested by GM.
First, if they affect a safety area, such as a front brush guard, they must be crash tested to assure it has no affect on the front discriminating SIR sensor. Don't want a front brush guard that is so strong, the front sensor does not trigger when required. Someone could get seriously hurt. This means plenty of input from safety engineers, as well as body engineers.

Second, they must not screw with emissions, or else places like CA will come after GM with a big hammer (called a recall). Other states would also be involved like in the NE states. This means input from the emission engineering section in the emission lab. If there are sound concerns, such as an exhaust system, then the requirements for states must be followed.

Third, it must not affect the warranty of the vehicle. In the case of the underbody protection, yes, there was input from the transmission engineering section. Concerns of overheating are stressed. Testing is done on all types of shields, over a long period of time, and then the approvals are given.
Again, any testing is done on the full H3, not an H3 without a body, it has to be a production intent vehicle.

If heat cooking the trans fluid is not a concern of GM (or the owner), then why does the owner's manual state under normal use, the trans fluid must be changed at 100K, but if under severe service it must be changed at 50K:

(h) Change automatic transmission fluid and filter if the vehicle is mainly driven under one or more of these conditions:

• In heavy city traffic where the outside temperature regularly reaches 90°F (32°C) or higher.

• In hilly or mountainous terrain.

• When doing frequent trailer towing.

• Uses such as found in taxi, police, or delivery service.

These four types of service allow trans fluid to get hot and stay hot, thus breaking down the fluid.

As I said in my previous post, GM assumes (yes this might be an incorrect assumption) that the person who has this underbody protection installed will leave it on the vehicle at all times. They will not install before running a trail, and remove after the trail has been run.
If a person desires a full underbody protection, and installs when required, and removes after, problems with heat destroying the fluid would be minimal (my assumption, not GM's).
For a rig like you show, I'm sure the protection stays on all the time, but again, that will not be used for commuting in rush hour traffic, or at least not on a normal basis. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I will also say that the trail you show looks like a hell of a lot of fun, but I will also state that my H3 will never run it. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Maybe I'm wrong, and I would love to see someone prove me wrong, but I don't believe the H3 is designed to run a trail like that, even with a 2-6 inch body lift. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by f5fstop:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sean K.:


http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmen...5&stc=1&d=1143223579 (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=236035&stc=1&d=1143223579)


f5fstop,

You make a very valid point especially concerning autos.....however, none of you have actually run a full belly pan, correct? I know several people running them on everything from small SUVs, to buggies to fullsizes....yes, heat builds up more at slow speed without air flow....

What I'm saying is: it's not significant enough to cause a transmission failure, IME. As you eloquently stated: transmission fluid and oils both have ranges of acceptable operating temperature. Unless we did a real test to find out just what the temps are running without a full belly skid and then with....how can ANYONE say for certain it will raise the temperature above the acceptable range? The obvious answer is: you can't. That is just my opinion though and you guys are welcome to your own (not that you need my permission).

I apologize if I ruffled any feathers with my comments. That was not my intent. I was only trying to give my own personal experience with belly pans as well as some general comments about lift height vs. CoG.

Take care,
Sean

Maybe I should have further qualified my response since it appears to have been missed.
First, I'm talking an H3, and probably goes over to an H2 and H1, but I will be first to state I'm not that familiar with these vehicles.
Second, I'm talking a vehicle with a full body, not a frame unit. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to note that the type of vehicle you are showing in the photos, would have plenty of airflow from top of the vehicle since there is NO body. In addition, heat rises, and it appears there is no place to trap heat and cook the fluid. I don't believe you would be driving this down Interstate 10 at 75 mph, or doing any city, stop and go driving.
I also believe that running rigs like that would tend to blow the trans for other reasons, thus when it is rebuilt, I would hope you would use new fluid. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Now, let me explain something. ALL GM authorized accessories have to be tested by GM.
First, if they affect a safety area, such as a front brush guard, they must be crash tested to assure it has no affect on the front discriminating SIR sensor. Don't want a front brush guard that is so strong, the front sensor does not trigger when required. Someone could get seriously hurt. This means plenty of input from safety engineers, as well as body engineers.

Second, they must not screw with emissions, or else places like CA will come after GM with a big hammer (called a recall). Other states would also be involved like in the NE states. This means input from the emission engineering section in the emission lab. If there are sound concerns, such as an exhaust system, then the requirements for states must be followed.

Third, it must not affect the warranty of the vehicle. In the case of the underbody protection, yes, there was input from the transmission engineering section. Concerns of overheating are stressed. Testing is done on all types of shields, over a long period of time, and then the approvals are given.
Again, any testing is done on the full H3, not an H3 without a body, it has to be a production intent vehicle.

If heat cooking the trans fluid is not a concern of GM (or the owner), then why does the owner's manual state under normal use, the trans fluid must be changed at 100K, but if under severe service it must be changed at 50K:

(h) Change automatic transmission fluid and filter if the vehicle is mainly driven under one or more of these conditions:

• In heavy city traffic where the outside temperature regularly reaches 90°F (32°C) or higher.

• In hilly or mountainous terrain.

• When doing frequent trailer towing.

• Uses such as found in taxi, police, or delivery service.

These four types of service allow trans fluid to get hot and stay hot, thus breaking down the fluid.

As I said in my previous post, GM assumes (yes this might be an incorrect assumption) that the person who has this underbody protection installed will leave it on the vehicle at all times. They will not install before running a trail, and remove after the trail has been run.
If a person desires a full underbody protection, and installs when required, and removes after, problems with heat destroying the fluid would be minimal (my assumption, not GM's).
For a rig like you show, I'm sure the protection stays on all the time, but again, that will not be used for commuting in rush hour traffic, or at least not on a normal basis. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I will also say that the trail you show looks like a hell of a lot of fun, but I will also state that my H3 will never run it. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Maybe I'm wrong, and I would love to see someone prove me wrong, but I don't believe the H3 is designed to run a trail like that, even with a 2-6 inch body lift. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

f5fstop,
I hesitate to even reply considering my comments seem to be just making more people angry, however, I would just like to say again (and you quoted it above) that I was also talking about full bodied rigs like small SUVs (Cherokess, Tjs, Cjs, 4Runners) as well as fullsize trucks (some have a bed, most don't), so in all fairness, it wasn't just buggies I was referring to (and most buggies have more heat restriction b/c unlike the one pictured or mine, yet, they have full floor pans and a much more confined space for the trans/tcase(s) to be housed)....some of these vehicles are in fact, daily drivers and DO NOT have an overheating problem; but you're correct, most are not driven on the road regularly.

This brings up another point though. As you pointed out in your other post....low speed crawling will generate more heat b/c of lack of air flow. Stop and go driving and highway driving are going to see more air flow and associated lower temps just b/c of the higher speeds, right? (Now, I'm not talking about a mud packed skid.....again, my narrow viewpoint coming out).

I'm not sure I understood your first two points about GM testing accessories and having to meet emissions standards. Do you mean that no accessory should be put on the vehicle unless GM approves it through their engineering and test department? Please elaborate.

As for your 3rd point about warranty of the vehicle....I never said, "heat cooking the trans fluid is not a concern of GM" and I surely didn't mean to imply that. Heat is the number one reason an automatic transmisssion fails....but it's too much heat. We've yet to determine through any kind of analysis that a skid would raise the temperature enough to be "too much". That's all I was saying.

You seem to have an intimate insight of the transmission engineering process at GM according to this quote: "the trans engineers at GM I know would never recommend a full body undershield". So did GM actually test the UCP with full shielding? Perhaps you know something we all do not. Any chance you could get one of your friends to register on the site and discuss the issue in detail? As an engineer myself, most of us nerds love nothing more than to talk tech. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oh, and please don't take my comments as anything more than my opinion. I feel like we're adding some technical discussion to a thread that has been devoid of it and is really just people's opinions not backed by any real experience (coupled with childish insults).

Sean

[Sean K.]

Oh, and I found the video I was referring to when talking to Paragon.....it was actually DRTYFN's silver H2. My apologies to DRTYFN and Paragon.

Sean

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Sean K.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by f5fstop:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sean K.:


http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmen...5&stc=1&d=1143223579 (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=236035&stc=1&d=1143223579)


f5fstop,

You make a very valid point especially concerning autos.....however, none of you have actually run a full belly pan, correct? I know several people running them on everything from small SUVs, to buggies to fullsizes....yes, heat builds up more at slow speed without air flow....

What I'm saying is: it's not significant enough to cause a transmission failure, IME. As you eloquently stated: transmission fluid and oils both have ranges of acceptable operating temperature. Unless we did a real test to find out just what the temps are running without a full belly skid and then with....how can ANYONE say for certain it will raise the temperature above the acceptable range? The obvious answer is: you can't. That is just my opinion though and you guys are welcome to your own (not that you need my permission).

I apologize if I ruffled any feathers with my comments. That was not my intent. I was only trying to give my own personal experience with belly pans as well as some general comments about lift height vs. CoG.

Take care,
Sean

Maybe I should have further qualified my response since it appears to have been missed.
First, I'm talking an H3, and probably goes over to an H2 and H1, but I will be first to state I'm not that familiar with these vehicles.
Second, I'm talking a vehicle with a full body, not a frame unit. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to note that the type of vehicle you are showing in the photos, would have plenty of airflow from top of the vehicle since there is NO body. In addition, heat rises, and it appears there is no place to trap heat and cook the fluid. I don't believe you would be driving this down Interstate 10 at 75 mph, or doing any city, stop and go driving.
I also believe that running rigs like that would tend to blow the trans for other reasons, thus when it is rebuilt, I would hope you would use new fluid. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Now, let me explain something. ALL GM authorized accessories have to be tested by GM.
First, if they affect a safety area, such as a front brush guard, they must be crash tested to assure it has no affect on the front discriminating SIR sensor. Don't want a front brush guard that is so strong, the front sensor does not trigger when required. Someone could get seriously hurt. This means plenty of input from safety engineers, as well as body engineers.

Second, they must not screw with emissions, or else places like CA will come after GM with a big hammer (called a recall). Other states would also be involved like in the NE states. This means input from the emission engineering section in the emission lab. If there are sound concerns, such as an exhaust system, then the requirements for states must be followed.

Third, it must not affect the warranty of the vehicle. In the case of the underbody protection, yes, there was input from the transmission engineering section. Concerns of overheating are stressed. Testing is done on all types of shields, over a long period of time, and then the approvals are given.
Again, any testing is done on the full H3, not an H3 without a body, it has to be a production intent vehicle.

If heat cooking the trans fluid is not a concern of GM (or the owner), then why does the owner's manual state under normal use, the trans fluid must be changed at 100K, but if under severe service it must be changed at 50K:

(h) Change automatic transmission fluid and filter if the vehicle is mainly driven under one or more of these conditions:

• In heavy city traffic where the outside temperature regularly reaches 90°F (32°C) or higher.

• In hilly or mountainous terrain.

• When doing frequent trailer towing.

• Uses such as found in taxi, police, or delivery service.

These four types of service allow trans fluid to get hot and stay hot, thus breaking down the fluid.

As I said in my previous post, GM assumes (yes this might be an incorrect assumption) that the person who has this underbody protection installed will leave it on the vehicle at all times. They will not install before running a trail, and remove after the trail has been run.
If a person desires a full underbody protection, and installs when required, and removes after, problems with heat destroying the fluid would be minimal (my assumption, not GM's).
For a rig like you show, I'm sure the protection stays on all the time, but again, that will not be used for commuting in rush hour traffic, or at least not on a normal basis. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I will also say that the trail you show looks like a hell of a lot of fun, but I will also state that my H3 will never run it. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Maybe I'm wrong, and I would love to see someone prove me wrong, but I don't believe the H3 is designed to run a trail like that, even with a 2-6 inch body lift. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

f5fstop,
I hesitate to even reply considering my comments seem to be just making more people angry, however, I would just like to say again (and you quoted it above) that I was also talking about full bodied rigs like small SUVs (Cherokess, Tjs, Cjs, 4Runners) as well as fullsize trucks (some have a bed, most don't), so in all fairness, it wasn't just buggies I was referring to (and most buggies have more heat restriction b/c unlike the one pictured or mine, yet, they have full floor pans and a much more confined space for the trans/tcase(s) to be housed)....some of these vehicles are in fact, daily drivers and DO NOT have an overheating problem; but you're correct, most are not driven on the road regularly.

This brings up another point though. As you pointed out in your other post....low speed crawling will generate more heat b/c of lack of air flow. Stop and go driving and highway driving are going to see more air flow and associated lower temps just b/c of the higher speeds, right? (Now, I'm not talking about a mud packed skid.....again, my narrow viewpoint coming out).

I'm not sure I understood your first two points about GM testing accessories and having to meet emissions standards. Do you mean that no accessory should be put on the vehicle unless GM approves it through their engineering and test department? Please elaborate.

As for your 3rd point about warranty of the vehicle....I never said, "heat cooking the trans fluid is not a concern of GM" and I surely didn't mean to imply that. Heat is the number one reason an automatic transmisssion fails....but it's too much heat. We've yet to determine through any kind of analysis that a skid would raise the temperature enough to be "too much". That's all I was saying.

You seem to have an intimate insight of the transmission engineering process at GM according to this quote: "the trans engineers at GM I know would never recommend a full body undershield". So did GM actually test the UCP with full shielding? Perhaps you know something we all do not. Any chance you could get one of your friends to register on the site and discuss the issue in detail? As an engineer myself, most of us nerds love nothing more than to talk tech. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oh, and please don't take my comments as anything more than my opinion. I feel like we're adding some technical discussion to a thread that has been devoid of it and is really just people's opinions not backed by any real experience (coupled with childish insults).

Sean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Don't ****ing flatter yourself there sport. You've already displayed you level of intelligence.

You have added nothing but confusion since you obviously don't know much about a modern vehicle or one that is used both on or off-road. You float from forum to forum and try to write your little books to see how many words you can spurt into a post, but in the end, you offer no real advice.

It's really starting to get insulting that you assume that you have the end all answer and those of us here that work for AM General, GM, Aftermarket Manufacturers, Retailers, 4wd shops, yet you want to purport the position that since you have not personally approved of a "test" then it must not be so.

Logic doesn't have to be tested, except by idiots. If trapping a hot exhaust, a hot transmission between 2 layers of sheet metal and a boxed frame makes sense to you when the option of having the same protection with an open design doesn't, please, just move on, or it's going to get a lot more flamey around here for you.

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Sean K.:
Oh, and I found the video I was referring to when talking to Paragon.....it was actually DRTYFN's silver H2. My apologies to DRTYFN and Paragon.

Sean WTH are you talking about. Are you now hearing voices in your head?

[f5fstop]

Originally posted by Sean K.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by f5fstop:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sean K.:


http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmen...5&stc=1&d=1143223579 (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=236035&stc=1&d=1143223579)


f5fstop,

You make a very valid point especially concerning autos.....however, none of you have actually run a full belly pan, correct? I know several people running them on everything from small SUVs, to buggies to fullsizes....yes, heat builds up more at slow speed without air flow....

What I'm saying is: it's not significant enough to cause a transmission failure, IME. As you eloquently stated: transmission fluid and oils both have ranges of acceptable operating temperature. Unless we did a real test to find out just what the temps are running without a full belly skid and then with....how can ANYONE say for certain it will raise the temperature above the acceptable range? The obvious answer is: you can't. That is just my opinion though and you guys are welcome to your own (not that you need my permission).

I apologize if I ruffled any feathers with my comments. That was not my intent. I was only trying to give my own personal experience with belly pans as well as some general comments about lift height vs. CoG.

Take care,
Sean

Maybe I should have further qualified my response since it appears to have been missed.
First, I'm talking an H3, and probably goes over to an H2 and H1, but I will be first to state I'm not that familiar with these vehicles.
Second, I'm talking a vehicle with a full body, not a frame unit. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to note that the type of vehicle you are showing in the photos, would have plenty of airflow from top of the vehicle since there is NO body. In addition, heat rises, and it appears there is no place to trap heat and cook the fluid. I don't believe you would be driving this down Interstate 10 at 75 mph, or doing any city, stop and go driving.
I also believe that running rigs like that would tend to blow the trans for other reasons, thus when it is rebuilt, I would hope you would use new fluid. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Now, let me explain something. ALL GM authorized accessories have to be tested by GM.
First, if they affect a safety area, such as a front brush guard, they must be crash tested to assure it has no affect on the front discriminating SIR sensor. Don't want a front brush guard that is so strong, the front sensor does not trigger when required. Someone could get seriously hurt. This means plenty of input from safety engineers, as well as body engineers.

Second, they must not screw with emissions, or else places like CA will come after GM with a big hammer (called a recall). Other states would also be involved like in the NE states. This means input from the emission engineering section in the emission lab. If there are sound concerns, such as an exhaust system, then the requirements for states must be followed.

Third, it must not affect the warranty of the vehicle. In the case of the underbody protection, yes, there was input from the transmission engineering section. Concerns of overheating are stressed. Testing is done on all types of shields, over a long period of time, and then the approvals are given.
Again, any testing is done on the full H3, not an H3 without a body, it has to be a production intent vehicle.

If heat cooking the trans fluid is not a concern of GM (or the owner), then why does the owner's manual state under normal use, the trans fluid must be changed at 100K, but if under severe service it must be changed at 50K:

(h) Change automatic transmission fluid and filter if the vehicle is mainly driven under one or more of these conditions:

• In heavy city traffic where the outside temperature regularly reaches 90°F (32°C) or higher.

• In hilly or mountainous terrain.

• When doing frequent trailer towing.

• Uses such as found in taxi, police, or delivery service.

These four types of service allow trans fluid to get hot and stay hot, thus breaking down the fluid.

As I said in my previous post, GM assumes (yes this might be an incorrect assumption) that the person who has this underbody protection installed will leave it on the vehicle at all times. They will not install before running a trail, and remove after the trail has been run.
If a person desires a full underbody protection, and installs when required, and removes after, problems with heat destroying the fluid would be minimal (my assumption, not GM's).
For a rig like you show, I'm sure the protection stays on all the time, but again, that will not be used for commuting in rush hour traffic, or at least not on a normal basis. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I will also say that the trail you show looks like a hell of a lot of fun, but I will also state that my H3 will never run it. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Maybe I'm wrong, and I would love to see someone prove me wrong, but I don't believe the H3 is designed to run a trail like that, even with a 2-6 inch body lift. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

f5fstop,
I hesitate to even reply considering my comments seem to be just making more people angry, however, I would just like to say again (and you quoted it above) that I was also talking about full bodied rigs like small SUVs (Cherokess, Tjs, Cjs, 4Runners) as well as fullsize trucks (some have a bed, most don't), so in all fairness, it wasn't just buggies I was referring to (and most buggies have more heat restriction b/c unlike the one pictured or mine, yet, they have full floor pans and a much more confined space for the trans/tcase(s) to be housed)....some of these vehicles are in fact, daily drivers and DO NOT have an overheating problem; but you're correct, most are not driven on the road regularly.

This brings up another point though. As you pointed out in your other post....low speed crawling will generate more heat b/c of lack of air flow. Stop and go driving and highway driving are going to see more air flow and associated lower temps just b/c of the higher speeds, right? (Now, I'm not talking about a mud packed skid.....again, my narrow viewpoint coming out).

I'm not sure I understood your first two points about GM testing accessories and having to meet emissions standards. Do you mean that no accessory should be put on the vehicle unless GM approves it through their engineering and test department? Please elaborate.

As for your 3rd point about warranty of the vehicle....I never said, "heat cooking the trans fluid is not a concern of GM" and I surely didn't mean to imply that. Heat is the number one reason an automatic transmisssion fails....but it's too much heat. We've yet to determine through any kind of analysis that a skid would raise the temperature enough to be "too much". That's all I was saying.

You seem to have an intimate insight of the transmission engineering process at GM according to this quote: "the trans engineers at GM I know would never recommend a full body undershield". So did GM actually test the UCP with full shielding? Perhaps you know something we all do not. Any chance you could get one of your friends to register on the site and discuss the issue in detail? As an engineer myself, most of us nerds love nothing more than to talk tech. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oh, and please don't take my comments as anything more than my opinion. I feel like we're adding some technical discussion to a thread that has been devoid of it and is really just people's opinions not backed by any real experience (coupled with childish insults).

Sean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can't answer all, but just to say, read my previous posts. I have stated that using a full underbody shield when off-roading will probably cause no problems, if it is a temporary item. The problem is, GM assumes you will leave whatever they sell on the vehicle at all times. This is the problem. I don't care if you are going 100 mph, if there is no airflow around the trans, and the heat generated by the trans and the cats is trapped, it will cause the trans fluid to degrade at a faster rate. I do not mean to imply it will show an overheat condition, it will just heat it up and cause it to degrade faster than designed (the severe maintenance schedule). If the engine flashes a code for overheated trans fluid, you have a big problem.
Will you notice this slippage? No, it will be gradual overtime, until it is a problem. Someone driving a vehicle, where the trans starts to slip over a period of time will not notice this slippage, it will be so slight, it will seem normal.

As for added accessories. You can add anything to your vehicles that you wish; however, GM as the manufacturer has to follow all the laws and safety regulations issued by the countries that they sell the vehicle in. That is the reason many accessories you see sold by aftermarket companies are never offered by GM, they can't, through their official channels.
GM can't offer a set of headers unless they meet emission regulations, you can add a set and not violate the law, unless you have a local I/M requirement. GM can't offer a super loud exhaust, since many states outlaw these loud exhausts, but you can install a loud exhaust. GM will not offer a front end brush guard that affects the operation of an SIR sensor. Not only is it against the regulations, but it would also lead to liability lawsuits. However, if you want to install one, they can't stop you, but if the bags don't go off as designed, you can bet they will fight you tooth and nail in court if you sue.
Only input GM (or any manufacture) has in regard to what you install on a vehicle is the warranty may be voided if the addition could cause a failure of a part (e.g., supercharger, turbocharger, etc.).

My last words on the subject are: You whatever you wish to use, chances are in some cases the trans will fry outside of warranty. Just don't bash the manufacturer; GM, Chrysler, etc., if it does fail.

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by f5fstop:

Can't answer all, but just to say, read my previous posts. I have stated that using a full underbody shield when off-roading will probably cause no problems, if it is a temporary item. The problem is, GM assumes you will leave whatever they sell on the vehicle at all times. This is the problem. I don't care if you are going 100 mph, if there is no airflow around the trans, and the heat generated by the trans and the cats is trapped, it will cause the trans fluid to degrade at a faster rate. I do not mean to imply it will show an overheat condition, it will just heat it up and cause it to degrade faster than designed (the severe maintenance schedule). If the engine flashes a code for overheated trans fluid, you have a big problem.
Will you notice this slippage? No, it will be gradual overtime, until it is a problem. Someone driving a vehicle, where the trans starts to slip over a period of time will not notice this slippage, it will be so slight, it will seem normal...........................

My last words on the subject are: You whatever you wish to use, chances are in some cases the trans will fry outside of warranty. Just don't bash the manufacturer; GM, Chrysler, etc., if it does fail.

Well, I guess you and I have re-hashed this to the point of repeating ourselves.....

The above post does bring about something you touched upon earlier and definitely has merit. As you and I both stated, the belly pan will increase the temperature and as you also stated before, it would be wise to follow an increased service interval (i.e., change the fluid more frequently) should one choose to go with a full belly pan.

I think where we may still disagree is whether or not the increase will be significant enough to cause damage (especially if one decreased the time between transmission flushes), but as you said it would probably be imperceptible to the driver.

In any case, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree unless one of your transmission engineers wouldn't mind giving his input.

Take care and happy trails.

Sean

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Sean K.:
Well, I guess you and I have re-hashed this to the point of repeating ourselves.....

The above post does bring about something you touched upon earlier and definitely has merit. As you and I both stated, the belly pan will increase the temperature and as you also stated before, it would be wise to follow an increased service interval (i.e., change the fluid more frequently) should one choose to go with a full belly pan.

I think where we may still disagree is whether or not the increase will be significant enough to cause damage (especially if one decreased the time between transmission flushes), but as you said it would probably be imperceptible to the driver.

In any case, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree unless one of your transmission engineers wouldn't mind giving his input.

Take care and happy trails.

Sean I'm thinking no one really cares whether you agree or disagree, since you don't own any version of a Hummer, don't sound like you ever intend on owning one and are too damn ignorant to recognize common sense.

Why force the issue? Why force a belly pan onto a vehicle where you admit that temperatures will increase when a ladder design will do the same job (this is from excrutiating detailed experience from many owners) without any issues. But you want to keep arguing the fact from a position of ignorance. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[PARAGON]

Actually, no one else has even come close to hitting on that additional and very important reason why the H2 and H3 differs. I poked at it, hinted at it, but no one got it. Mainly because you can pick out when someone just wants to argue regardless of their point of view. It really doesn't matter to them if others read what they write and try to follow their advice and experience a failure. They just like mouthing what they typed back to themselves.

The H2 and H3 have nothing hanging below their frames. Everything is tucked. To try to draw a comparison to other vehicles on something like this without any intimate knowledge is futile and grossly negligent as a poster on this forum. To place a belly pan on one of these trucks wold be effectively sealing up in a metal box, the exhaust, transmission and transfer case.

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by sfox:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">quote:
Originally posted by PARAGON:
Does the H3 forum just draw the dumbasses out out of the woodwork or what?



Well, your here alot, does that answer your question? SPORT!

Flame on...

Oh look, here's what was deleted.....http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
S </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Now, that's pretty damn weak. Posts it but then get's scared and deletes it.

[evldave]

ok, got a question for all you experts (and wannabes). I'm a cheap-ass, and prefer to make stuff myself.

I'm not using a pan.
I'm not likely to rock crawl to the extent I need to worry about regular beatings on the undercarraige.
I like to run things over in the woods, and have dented the oil pan on every truck I've ever owned, hence the need for some sort of protection just in case.

I'm thinking of taking 3/8" x 1" flat bar, running it front to back. Support it with 3/8" x 1" flat bar across every 6-12" from frame rail to frame rail. I'd run it the same length as the current factory UCP.

This strikes me as a balance between protection and clearance. It would have more clearance than the factory UCP (3/4" vs 1-1/2"), be a lot cheaper (about $30 total + my time cutting and welding), and should be just as strong.

Thoughts?

[PARAGON]

I still don't get this clearance thing people are bringing up.

IIRC, you have a front end, a rear end and a gas tank that has to clear.

[evldave]

Paragon-

Here's my most common problem. Here in the northwest there are lots of old logging roads that aren't maintained anymore. To keep crazy people like me off those old roads (which can have washouts and can actually be somewhat dangerous to Darwin candidates), they plow up hills at the beginning of the roads. Since I don't like to be told where I can or can't go on public land, I drive over these. Sometimes the angle at the top is such that the front wheels go down before the back wheel go up (imagine a pyramid that's a rectangle at the bottom and a ridge at the top - I don't know what the geometric term for it is). I've scraped that in the center between the wheels many times - my jeep and suburban both had some good protection, but I'm a little concerned about the lack of protection on the H3.

[PARAGON]

You are testing the breakover of the vehicle.

If you have a rear locker, getting by some of these are fairly easy. If you can go to it at an angle and get a front wheel over it and when your rear wheels approach turn into straightening up the truck can minimize some breakover issues.

Instead of only have ground contacts for the breakover, you effectively created 3 by staggering when the front tires reach the crest.

In all honesty though, I don't think, in most cases, the inch or so you give up for good protection is going to hang you up any, especially on dirt. The piece of mind of having sound protection to vitals when you are off-road is of much more importance than 1 inch of clearance because you just never know.

[Alan06SUT]

Originally posted by PARAGON:
I still don't get this clearance thing people are bringing up.

IIRC, you have a front end, a rear end and a gas tank that has to clear.

Agreed. At Tellico we watched one H3 w protection and one without protection go over many of the same obstacles where clearance was definatley tested. Both made it fine but, I do belive that the one w/o UCP was taking far greater risks each time the clearance was tested.

[HIHUMMER]

I do belive that the one w/o UCP was taking far greater risks each time the clearance was tested.

hehehe! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But remember...that extra clearance w/out the UCP got me over that one rock on 6 that the other got stuck on...but agreed...I really need to get the UCP.

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by HIHUMMER:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I do belive that the one w/o UCP was taking far greater risks each time the clearance was tested.

hehehe! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But remember...that extra clearance w/out the UCP got me over that one rock on 6 that the other got stuck on...but agreed...I really need to get the UCP. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>BS, yellow just weighs less than blue http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[HummerNewbie]

Originally posted by HIHUMMER:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I do belive that the one w/o UCP was taking far greater risks each time the clearance was tested.

hehehe! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But remember...that extra clearance w/out the UCP got me over that one rock on 6 that the other got stuck on... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You talking about me bish http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I was able to get off myself though. Wait, that didn't sound good. I mean, I was able to proceed without the assistance of another truck http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[HummerNewbie]

Originally posted by PARAGON:
BS, yellow just weighs less than blue http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ROFLMAO http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Tis true. Well, at least the driver did http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[h2co-pilot]

Originally posted by HIHUMMER:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I do belive that the one w/o UCP was taking far greater risks each time the clearance was tested.

hehehe! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But remember...that extra clearance w/out the UCP got me over that one rock on 6 that the other got stuck on... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it was just because we knew where to stack the rocks on the line the second time.http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[HummerNewbie]

Originally posted by h2co-pilot:
I think it was just because we knew where to stack the rocks on the line the second time.http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

LMAO http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Maybe that's it http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by sfox:
For an H2 and an H3, given the weight of the vehicles and the trannies used for them, you get a lot of heating problems in them just with stock configurations........


See the difference between you and me is that I don't claim to know eveything about wheeling, I just know a whole hell of a lot about wheeling HUMMERS....moron......

S



My mistake. I had no idea H2s and H3s were borderline overheating with the stock configuration. This post isn't to beg forgiveness, seek acceptance or start an argument.....merely to acknowlege that I was wrong and once again apologize for being "grossly negligent" in my advice without "intimate knowledge" of the vehicles in question, as Pargon stated.

After reading the last comment in the above quote, I re-read my original post to this thread and it did come across as "know it all". My apologies for that as well. It wasn't my intention, but you know what they say about good intentions.

Take care,

Sean

***EDIT****Oh, and sfox, thanks for the kick in the pants as well as the explanation.

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by PARAGON:
Let us know when you wheeled somewhere besides your own backyard

Well, since the ball's rolling.............

Again, please re-read what I wrote. You've got an open invite to AZ to do wheeling that WILL hang you up on your open UCP.

Sean

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Sean K.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
Let us know when you wheeled somewhere besides your own backyard

Well, since the ball's rolling.............

Again, please re-read what I wrote. You've got an open invite to AZ to do wheeling that WILL hang you up on your open UCP.

Sean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You have an open invite to come out of the closet

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by PARAGON:
Don't ****ing flatter yourself there sport. You've already displayed you level of intelligence.

You have added nothing but confusion since you obviously don't know much about a modern vehicle or one that is used both on or off-road. You float from forum to forum and try to write your little books to see how many words you can spurt into a post, but in the end, you offer no real advice.

It's really starting to get insulting that you assume that you have the end all answer and those of us here that work for AM General, GM, Aftermarket Manufacturers, Retailers, 4wd shops, yet you want to purport the position that since you have not personally approved of a "test" then it must not be so.

Logic doesn't have to be tested, except by idiots. If trapping a hot exhaust, a hot transmission between 2 layers of sheet metal and a boxed frame makes sense to you when the option of having the same protection with an open design doesn't, please, just move on, or it's going to get a lot more flamey around here for you.

So, omnipotent one http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif............(Can you smell the sarcasm? Hope so; I'm laying it on pretty thick).....


Just what constitutes a "modern" vehicle? Is it fuel injection? Ya, I have that too. Is it a/c? Yep, got it....it's converted to OBA, but it's there. So, just what is it that makes your vehicle SOOO much more modern than my buggy? Is it b/c you have a sealed body? I wouldn't call that new technology since cars have had bodies pretty much since the beginning. Must be the ABS and airbags......ya, that's it. There's a major difference. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

And yep, I write little books.....but your adult ADHD makes it hard for someone of your intellect to follow, doesn't it?

Oh, and my buggy will be street legal in AZ, I just choose not to waste soft 40" tires on road use.....the difference between you and I (at least on this one issue) is that you bought a vehicle that compromises offroad-ability for streetability and I built one that didn't.

Have a super day,
Sean

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sean K.:
Oh, and I found the video I was referring to when talking to Paragon.....it was actually DRTYFN's silver H2. My apologies to DRTYFN and Paragon.

Sean WTH are you talking about. Are you now hearing voices in your head? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, but if ONCE AGAIN you'd learn to read, you'd realize I'd already mentioned this here:

"***EDIT*** Any chance "Paragon" has a (I think) yellow H2 that he posted pics of on Pirate4x4.com where he was climbing Escalator? If so, I'm the same "Sean" that sent you a PM about all the a-holes making snide comments in your thread. If it's you....hope all's well. :wave: (guess you guys don't have the "wave" icon).

Make sense now or do you still need help? Hint: it's on page 3.....my first post to this thread.

Sean

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sean K.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
Let us know when you wheeled somewhere besides your own backyard

Well, since the ball's rolling.............

Again, please re-read what I wrote. You've got an open invite to AZ to do wheeling that WILL hang you up on your open UCP.

Sean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You have an open invite to come out of the closet </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But I'm having so much fun in here with you.......

You are making me a wonderful wife. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

(See, it doesn't take any real talent to insult people).

Sean

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Sean K.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
Don't ****ing flatter yourself there sport. You've already displayed you level of intelligence.

You have added nothing but confusion since you obviously don't know much about a modern vehicle or one that is used both on or off-road. You float from forum to forum and try to write your little books to see how many words you can spurt into a post, but in the end, you offer no real advice.

It's really starting to get insulting that you assume that you have the end all answer and those of us here that work for AM General, GM, Aftermarket Manufacturers, Retailers, 4wd shops, yet you want to purport the position that since you have not personally approved of a "test" then it must not be so.

Logic doesn't have to be tested, except by idiots. If trapping a hot exhaust, a hot transmission between 2 layers of sheet metal and a boxed frame makes sense to you when the option of having the same protection with an open design doesn't, please, just move on, or it's going to get a lot more flamey around here for you.

So, omnipotent one http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif............(Can you smell the sarcasm? Hope so; I'm laying it on pretty thick).....


Just what constitutes a "modern" vehicle? Is it fuel injection? Ya, I have that too. Is it a/c? Yep, got it....it's converted to OBA, but it's there. So, just what is it that makes your vehicle SOOO much more modern than my buggy? Is it b/c you have a sealed body? I wouldn't call that new technology since cars have had bodies pretty much since the beginning. Must be the ABS and airbags......ya, that's it. There's a major difference. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

And yep, I write little books.....but your adult ADHD makes it hard for someone of your intellect to follow, doesn't it?

Oh, and my buggy will be street legal in AZ, I just choose not to waste soft 40" tires on road use.....the difference between you and I (at least on this one issue) is that you bought a vehicle that compromises offroad-ability for streetability and I built one that didn't.

Have a super day,
Sean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Ummm.... it seems you know how to use a dictionary. Look up "modern." I think it's pretty self explanatory.

And I have OCDADHD but how did you know about that and my intellect?

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Sean K.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sean K.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
Let us know when you wheeled somewhere besides your own backyard

Well, since the ball's rolling.............

Again, please re-read what I wrote. You've got an open invite to AZ to do wheeling that WILL hang you up on your open UCP.

Sean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You have an open invite to come out of the closet </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But I'm having so much fun in here with you.......

You are making me a wonderful wife. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

(See, it doesn't take any real talent to insult people).

Sean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Apparently it takes a little bit, because you certainly don't have any

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Sean K.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sean K.:
Oh, and I found the video I was referring to when talking to Paragon.....it was actually DRTYFN's silver H2. My apologies to DRTYFN and Paragon.

Sean WTH are you talking about. Are you now hearing voices in your head? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, but if ONCE AGAIN you'd learn to read, you'd realize I'd already mentioned this here:

"***EDIT*** Any chance "Paragon" has a (I think) yellow H2 that he posted pics of on Pirate4x4.com where he was climbing Escalator? If so, I'm the same "Sean" that sent you a PM about all the a-holes making snide comments in your thread. If it's you....hope all's well. :wave: (guess you guys don't have the "wave" icon).

Make sense now or do you still need help? Hint: it's on page 3.....my first post to this thread.

Sean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Does your mommie have to wipe the drool from the side of your face?

If you'll look on page 3, a few posts up above yours, you'll see my response. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

You ****ing idiot. Why in the hell would I go back 3 days later and read a post that you edited?

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sean K.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sean K.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
Let us know when you wheeled somewhere besides your own backyard

Well, since the ball's rolling.............

Again, please re-read what I wrote. You've got an open invite to AZ to do wheeling that WILL hang you up on your open UCP.

Sean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You have an open invite to come out of the closet </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But I'm having so much fun in here with you.......

You are making me a wonderful wife. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

(See, it doesn't take any real talent to insult people).

Sean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Apparently it takes a little bit, because you certainly don't have any </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow. F'n pathetic that that's all you came up with.

Care to admit you have a problem reading?

Sean

[PARAGON]

Originally posted by Sean K.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sean K.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sean K.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
Let us know when you wheeled somewhere besides your own backyard

Well, since the ball's rolling.............

Again, please re-read what I wrote. You've got an open invite to AZ to do wheeling that WILL hang you up on your open UCP.

Sean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You have an open invite to come out of the closet </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But I'm having so much fun in here with you.......

You are making me a wonderful wife. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

(See, it doesn't take any real talent to insult people).

Sean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Apparently it takes a little bit, because you certainly don't have any </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow. F'n pathetic that that's all you came up with.

Care to admit you have a problem reading?

Sean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That that.... Nope.

[PARAGON]

I crack myself up!!!!!!!!

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by PARAGON:
Does your mommie have to wipe the drool from the side of your face?

If you'll look on page 3, a few posts up above yours, you'll see my response. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

You ****ing idiot. Why in the hell would I go back 3 days later and read a post that you edited?

No, I have your mommie do that. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

As for your not so brilliant rebuttal.....would you like a second try at "putting me in my place"? http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

My first post to this thread was ONpage 3....how could you have responded to me before I ever posted b/c you never posted after me on page 3? Are you now clairvoyant and knew what I'd post before I even posted it? Sorry, I doubt anyone's going to believe you're as cool as you seem to have deluded yourself into thinking. How is your megalomania? Seems to be going well. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As for the edit....you're about as sharp as a marble.

Let me break it down for you:

I asked if you were the guy from Pirate in the orginial post (within several minutes of posting....I try to always mark an edit with ***EDIT*** so someone won't think I tried to pull one over on them)......


I then found out the guy from Pirate was DRTYFN, so I posted an apology to you and him.

You replied with "are you hearing voices in your head" or something to that affect.

Got it?

Sean

[PARAGON]

Nope, don't got it.

Stinkin little liar:

Posted Mar 25, 10:29 AM Central Time

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sean K., Mar 27, 6:25 AM Central Time

[PARAGON]

Did you go ****ing look at the page. Look a few posts up from your first post and your stupidity will be revealed, even to you possibly.

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by PARAGON:
Nope, don't got it.

Stinkin little liar:

Posted Mar 25, 10:29 AM Central Time

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sean K., Mar 27, 6:25 AM Central Time

Again, best you can do? I edited it that time to pull the pic of my buggy....I'm not wasting my pic bandwidth on a loser like you.

Sheesh.

Sean

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by PARAGON:
Did you go ****ing look at the page. Look a few posts up from your first post and your stupidity will be revealed, even to you possibly.

Yep, sure did. Guess you'll have to explain how you already responded to a question about you being the guy on Pirate that posted a video of an H2 climbing Escalator BEFORE I even asked the question.

***EDIT***And if you're referring to the fact that you "claim" to have driven Esalator a few posts above my own......that wasn't really "responding" to my question, now was it? (BTW.....You suck at communication. Maybe you should take a class at your local community college.) Did I send you a PM on Pirate? No. Did you post video of your H2 climbing the obstacle? Is so, it certainly wasn't the video I sent the PM about.

Sean

[PARAGON]

YAAWWWWNN!!!!!!

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by PARAGON:
YAAWWWWNN!!!!!!

Oh, I get it....now that I pointed out you're the one with the brain damage, you've grown bored.

Well, get used to me. I'll be around for awhile.

http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sean

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by Alec W:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sean K.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PARAGON:
YAAWWWWNN!!!!!!

Oh, I get it....now that I pointed out you're the one with the brain damage, you've grown bored.

Well, get used to me. I'll be around for awhile.

http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I doubt it. You are getting pwn3d badly http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just b/c you say it's so, doesn't make it so.......

Sean

[Sean K.]

Originally posted by Alec W:
Actually it does. I'm a Supreme Hummer Lord http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

So let it be written....so let it be done. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sean