New to offroading, how does the H3 compare with an Jeep Rubicon?

[EricJ]

As the title suggests I'm new to off-roading and I have a couple of co-workers who drive Jeep rubicons that give me crap about the Hummer. I know most of this is just for fun. However, for those who are into off-roading and have some experience, how does the H3 compare with say a new Jeep Rubicon? Will I be able to go on the same expeditions and weekend adventures as my co-workers?

[EricJ]

As the title suggests I'm new to off-roading and I have a couple of co-workers who drive Jeep rubicons that give me crap about the Hummer. I know most of this is just for fun. However, for those who are into off-roading and have some experience, how does the H3 compare with say a new Jeep Rubicon? Will I be able to go on the same expeditions and weekend adventures as my co-workers?

[Desert Dan]

When I get my H3 I will let you know! I hope to keep my Rubicon but add an H3 in the future!

The H3 does not have a front locker but with the Adventure Package you get 4.56:1 axle gears the Rubicon has only 4.11:1 gears.

Most people with Rubicon’s add a lift and a new t-case skid plate to get rid of the factory low hanging "shovel" and add 33" tires. All of this is not under a factory warranty or financing.

The Jeep is much lighter and has a shorter wheelbase. The Jeep will have more per to it since it has much less weight to haul around and the engine is made for low end torque. The Jeep will articulate more if you are into rockcrawling.

But with the Jeep you don't have 4 doors or creature comforts and the H3 has a bigger gas tank and probably better gas mileage. The H3 has more safety features than a basic Wrangler.

The H3 will be better on the road for sure and some places better off road where a long wheel bas come in handy!

[Desert Dan]

I am sure this debate will stir up lots of talk in the Hummer and Jeep crowd......


A few more things to add...

The H3 has a roof rack and more payload and towing capacity.

[richk]

Last year I sold my 2004 Jeep Wrangler. I had upgraded it with 4.5" lift, 33" tires, 4.56 gears. After I finished I was unhappy with the engine performance so I had an avenger super charger installed (which was great). After driving it for 6 months after that here are some of reasons I decided to sell:

The backseat was almost useless. I have 2 teenagers and they were very cramped in the back seat, so much so that we didn't use the Jeep as a family.
Even with the hard top the interior noise was annoying. I was wishing for a quieter car.
The ride was harse for a daily driver.
The gas milease was bad, around 15mpg, and to make matters worse the supercharger required premium fuel.

In the end I decided that the Jeep was too utilitarian for my lifestyle. It would have been great for a 2nd vehicle (toy, etc).

I think the H3 will be a great combination of off-road ruggedness and everyday driveability!

[Rocky Mts]

It's hard to say since the H3 is so new, but I'd guess that the Rubicon is slightly better off-road. The H3 is far superior as an everyday driver, however, and not much more expensive in the base version.

[usetosellhummer]

Skill level will be the factor. You can get the H3 to do almost all of what the Rubi will do. You will need the Adv package and most of all you will need some time to build up your skills. Start out slow and work your way up and take the jeep guys with you. When they see that Hummer twist they will be belivers.

[EricJ]

Thanks for the replies. I know skill will be a big factor and that will take some time to develop. I just hear alot of complaints/bashing especially regarding the H2 from the Jeep crowd here were I work.

[usetosellhummer]

see how many have driven one? Alot of people piss on what they can't have?

[DRTYFN]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EricJ:
Thanks for the replies. I know skill will be a big factor and that will take some time to develop. I just hear alot of whining like little girls especially regarding the H2 from the Jeep crowd here were I work. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fixed.http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[H3 Hummer]

Not good at comparisons with the jeep but according to the professionals at a Hummer happening, they said the H3 was very surprising at off road. Further more with some package with some low gear stuff they said it was excellent.

[FormerJeeper]

Comparing an H3 to a Wrangler Rubicon isn't really fair.
I've built a TJ wrangler all the way up to 38.5" tires, Atlas 2 t-case. shaved D70/D60 axles etc and it's a fun thing to do and great experience but a Wrangler is a lot smaller in every respect to an H3 and will wheel comletely differently.

You need to start with the wheelbase.

A stock Wrangler has 97.4", the Unlimited 101.4". The Grand Cherokee 111" or there abouts.
I believe the H3 is around 111" so if its a Jeep you are comparing, then compare it to the GC.
The H3 is a bit heavier but once you add bigger tires and armour to a GC, it's going to be close.

OK, the H3 with Adventure Package comes with 33" tires and a 4:1 t-case and a full rear locker.
The older ZJ GC can fit 33" tires with 6-7" of lift and a long arm kit for better stability but it's kind scary to drive, suffering from "death wobble" if the lift and allignment isn't performed correctly.

I don't know if anyone has lifted the last model GC, the WJ to fit 33s, but I know the wheel weels are smaller than on the ZJ.
I don't know how anyone would go about lifting the newest model in the front because of the IFS, but I'm sure it's doable at a price.

None of the GC models have a 4:1 t-case or fully locking diferentials.

OK, so suppose that the latest IFS equipped GC can be lifted 6" or so to fit 33s. The cost of the lift kit is going to be close to $2K for a quality long arm kit. Then you have to fit new tires. 5x decent offroad tires are $1K. 5x rims another $1K.
An Atlas 2 t-case for the 4:1 is another $2K. Then there's a fully locking differential like the ARB, add another $700. Regearing both diffs, add another $300+.
Then there's the rear bumper + swing out (for the 33" wheel) + rock rails, skid plates etc and you will be close to $10K on top of the new price, which to begin with is around the price of the H3 + AP.

It also gets worse gas mileage in stock form and now you've added the 33" tires and all the weight and increased the center of gravity and rolling resistance its a lot worse.


See what I'm getting at?

Yes, the Rubicon is a great rig but it's pretty basic in features and comfort. It's noisey, drifts and gets blown all over the highway but it will get you places in stock form that no other vehicle could come close to, until now http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm too busy to go wheelin every weekend like I used to but it's still in my blood. I love it and miss it a lot.
When I found out the features availabe with H3 + AP, I was already sold.
Two test drives later (Luxury Package followed by AP) convinced me.
I didn't even drive the two blocks further to my local Jeep dealer and test drive the new GC.
The H3 was that impressive.
BTW, I traded a 04 Jeep Unlimited which I was sick of driving on the highway. It has a longer wheelbase than the stock TJ (whcih makes it smoother to drive) but it still got blown all over the road compared to my previous WJ GC.
The H3 by comparrison is like driving a luxury SUV. Smooth, solid and has as much apparent power as the Jeep Unlimited had and simillar, if not better, fuel economy.

Buy the H3 http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-C

[fuentex]

I have a friend who jsut got an H3 and I came over here to see what was on the internet about them.

I'm a Jeep guy, I own a 97 Cherokee, an 84 Scrambler and an 05 Rubicon Unlimited. I have no intention of starting a war, but I happened to see this and wanted to provide another point of view for you.

I agreee with the post above, comparing the H3 and the Rubicon overall is like comparing the Miata and the Corvette overall because they're both two-door cars. The H3 is a luxury SUV with offroad ability and the Rubicon is a rather utilitarian, offroad, removable-topped vehicle. (neither of those descriptions are meant to be disparaging)

Comparing the H3 to the GC overall is a better comparison... Jeep has yet to try to really deliver a solid offroad GC. I applaud any vehicle that has a locker from the factory, I think Jeep should do it in all of theirs as an option.

However, since the original question was regarding the offroad ability and not luxury, towing capacity, highway ride, etc. I thought that I had a great example of why Jeep people disparage the H2/3 in offroad situations...

H3 flex (stock I assume):
http://migmon.com/H3/H3%20126.jpg

Rubicon Unlimited flex stock (and I didn't disconnect the swaybars, but that wouldn't really make that much more difference):
http://www.kateanderic.com/crabtreefalls/crabtreefalls-Images/5.jpg

While simple flex is not the whole deal offroad, combine this with the facts that a Rubicon does have a 4:1 transfercase and two lockers... The 4:11 gears are indeed higher than an H3, but they're matched to the tire size (~31s) similarly to the 4.56 gears are to the 33s.

A BIG part of the issue is simplty attitude. People get in situations like the H3 pictured above and call themselves hardcore offroaders that can go anywhere a _____ can go (and no I'm not saying that is what that person claims, it's just an illustrative example).

If you didn't know, there's a very similar perception of Rubicon owners among other Jeep owners (CJ guys especially). Many buyers of Rubicons are doing it for the look/image and won't ever have their Jeep offroad and probably never in 4Lo... that's the thing that rubs people that really enjoy "hardcore" offroading the wrong way (no I'm not claiming my picture is hardcore). It's about knowing your vehicle, it's equipment for the task and your ability as a driver.

You can decide for yourself which one is more capable offroad in stock form in the hands of identically experienced drivers... I hope that another point of view helps some, I always like to look at both sides (which is why I came over here in the first place http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif).

Just to cover my bases, nothing in this post is meant to be confrontational or demeaning... I'm not a troll and I'm not trying to cause trouble.

[bparker]

Fuentex - well said and an excellent post.

[HummerJim]

Excellent review Fuentex! I would have to agree with a lot that you said. I was a confirmed Jeep man for many years because of where I live, but now find myself enjoying the differences of my Hummer. The Jeep does have some unique abilities offroad, but I find I can actually hear my radio in the H3 at highway speeds, ride the dog around with out him breathing down my neck, have an air conditioner that really keeps me comfortable, a seat that is really comfortable, and can do almost everything I need it to do offroad that 95% of the SUVs out there won't. Even in its base form the H3 is a luxurious ride. Oh yes, one other thing, this thing attracts attention every time you park it.
When tropical storm Dennis came through MO I got to finally see what the H3 would do in some serious mud driving up the trail to the house and through the creek. It made it where few other SUVs would dare to tread, but yesterday at 5,800 miles I put on 4 Goodyear Wrangler AT/Ss and the spare. I've had a lot of experience with these tires on two past 4 X 4s and became sold on them when I noticed on a vacation in Alberta, Canada, they are used almost exclusively on all the Calgary and Banff rescue 4 X 4s, being fantastic snow tires and those are always excellent mudders too. They seem to have a unique tread design that flexes the tread with remarkable self cleaning abilities and they wear well for such an aggressive tread design with not much noise either. I've had my old Jeep up to the hubs in snow and mud with these and like them - personal preference you might say.
I encountered my first problem when I energetically power washed the mud off the undercarriage last night and got a Check Engine
light followed by a Stability Sytem? annunciation. The H3 ran fine, so I pulled it in the garage and looked underneath and saw no hanging wires. About an hour later I went out and started it up and no annunciations and no problem. I'll have to step down the pressure on my power washer and I'm guessing I probably sprayed high pressure water into some sensor.
Took it out to get the paper this morning and no warning - pfm as we used to say in the Air Force.

[HummerJim]

OK, I won't keep everyone on pins and needles.
When I was a test pilot in the military, many, many, many, many years ago, when an aircraft would depart from the design perameters for an unknown reason, or a system would shut down and start back up and we had no idea why, we would enter PFM in the flight log. As far as I know NASA still uses this terminology today.
pfm = pure f...ing magic

[FormerJeeper]

Another thing to bear in mind if you are comparing an H3 with a GC...

If you have the misfortune of rolling either offroad, chances are you will be able to repair the damage to an H3 due to its solid frame design.

A GC, like all Cherokkes is of unibody construction
and analogous to a beer can. If you roll it off road it is done.
This has happened to more people than I care to remember. I 'almost' rolled my '98 Cherokee with 2000 miles on it coming down the infamous Thomson Hill on the famous Dusy Ershim trail.

Here is a link to this trail for the interested...

http://www.californiajeeper.com/dusy_ershim/review.htm

-C

[HummerNewbie]

PFM, sounds like a good new term for the forum http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Great reviews fuentex and Jim.

Jim, where exactly in the Ozarks are you?

[fuentex]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sfox:
As a Hummer owner, I would have to say that the H3 will go places that would set a Rubicon aquiver with fear and admiration. In a head to head competition, the H3 would not only throughly trounce the Rubi, it would mount the Rubi and pee on it's spare tire. C'mon guys, you're buying Hummers now, quit being so wimpy about proclaiming your vehicle's off-road prowess http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And here I was so proud of my post for not inciting a riot and I was impressed with the attitude of the H3 folks for accepting another point of view... then this http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If that's the conclusion you get after comparing the two in offroad capabilities... I hope there's no pictures if it's a Jeep that happens to get you out if you ever get stuck http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Seriously, it's nice to see a board where everyone doesn't read ill intentions into everything posted with an alternative point of view. Happy people liked reading what I had to say.

[fuentex]

I'd agree with everything you said if you are comparing an H3 and a Wrangler X (base model).

I'd agree with a few things if you are comparing a regular Wrangler Rubicon (space is very minimal/restricted and I'd never consider one)

You get a whole new level of functionality with a Rubicon Unlimited (what I own and a much better comparison to an H3). My friend who bought the H3 looked hard at a Rubi LJ too and went with the H3 for the comfort level and passenger room (no agument here on either of those counts).

Having not seen an H3 in person, can you get the 25 fence posts in with the rear seat up? If so, I'm very impressed. If not, are you aware that the rear seat of a Wrangler comes out and in the Unlimited flavor that opens up a very large space in the back. True that it's certainly not the size of the H3 cargo area and you have to plan ahead to take the seat out (does anyone pick up 25 fence posts on the spur of the moment though http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ), but I helped a friend move with the rear seat out and it held an amazing amount of crap (especially with the hard top that you can just pile things up against, I had the hard top on at the time). I'm not saying it can haul as much/more than an H3 by any means, just that it's WAY more functional than a regular Wrangler if you weren't aware.

I would disagree with the comment about the off-road differences being minimal in some categories, as the suspension flex photos and lack of a front locker would indicate. Both of those, while not being a dealbraker offroad by any means, are quite significant in my mind. Here on the east coast prerunning and sand driving are not real big as there's just no place to do them, so I'm talking from the trail riding/rockcrawling POV and can't speak to that terrain.

And of course, it's obvious that if you want anything that has the word "luxury" in the description, the H3 is the choice http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif as it was for my friend.

Without a single power option, no leather (but the A/C works incredibly well... as opposed to what some people have apparently heard/experienced) and a "Jeep-like" driving experience, the Rubicon Unlimited wouldn't be for you http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Just a counterpoint again...

[fuentex]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sfox:
Extending a TJ by 18" does make a difference, but it still doens't have the storage room of a Hummer...or the towing capacity... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I said as much on both points (3500 lb. vs 4500 lb. on towing capacity just so it's here).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As to the flex of a STOCK Rubi... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My picture is a 100% stock Rubicon LJ (unless you count the iPod adapter http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...not particularly impressive </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In all seriousness, do you think an H3 would have all 4 wheels planted on the hill I picutured after looking at the ones I posted? Honestly now... I've never ridden in/with an H3 so I have no choice but to respect your opinion on that (and anyone reading can judge for themselves).


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...and the width and wheelbase of a Hummer makes up for some flex defeciencies with balance and stability </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Width, yes, it's much wider, but that's still a picture of an H3 in a flexy situation in my initial post and the width didn't really seem to help. I can defintely see the width helping (and hurting BTW) in other situations though.

Wheelbase H3: 111.9, LJ: 103.4 that's 8.5 inches (8.2%) on an already long wheelbase... you decide if that's significant. I would argue that 8.5 inches added to a normal TJ wheelbase would indeed be singnificant, but that once you're already out in the 100+ inch range, it's much less so.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">(and the rear end of H2's and H3's flex more than you probably think). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Possibly, but there's pictures like this. At least they did stick with a solid axle in the rear and I'm sure different springs/shackles could help here.

http://migmon.com/H3/H3%20127.jpg


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The lack of a front locker is debatable (but cheap to install if you really need one)... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm curious what you consider cheap. To match the Rubi's selectable locker (and the rear selectable in the H3) you're looking at something like this: $899 (http://www.rubicon4x4.com/catalog/lockers-electrac-lockers-c-2880_226_2390.html) plus install which (if done "properly") would include resetting the gears. I just paid $150 to have my front D44 Detroit installed in my Scrambler and that was with the axle out of the vehicle and totally stripped down.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...but honestly most people would be their own worst enemy with a front locker when off-roading. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif That's one way to look at it. Could have been a nice option in the Adventure (IIRC) package though.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Now let's put the Rubi (even an unlimited) on a nice steep hill climb and put the Hummer on the same hill....which one is gonna be more "uncomfortable" to be in? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have been discussing only the Rubicon Unlimited, as a better comparison to the H3 in size.

See my comment about the difference in wheelbase. I don't really know what you consider "uncomfortable" but neither my Scramber (104" wheelbase) or Unlimited have ever felt anything close to "uncomfortable" on steep hills. I guess it's familiarity with the vehicle maybe? Again, once you're 100+" in wheelbase you're pretty dang stable on hills.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Like I said different vehicles, different strengths....and the Hummer wins walking away as a daily use vehicle. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Except for maybe the "walking away" comment, I'll totally agree with this http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[bparker]

fuentex:

Please dont argue (not saying you are as you are debating well but I see this thread starting to digress).

You have made some very nice posts and accurate. I have owned both a higly modified ZJ and now the H3 and you are correct on all points.

I agree the Rubi and the Rubi ULs are different animals and I thinkt he H3 should be compared to a lifted GC myself.

There are pros and cons to everything so only in the eye of the beholder is one of them percieved to be the best. Let that sink in....

[fuentex]

You said it. I didn't post to start anything and that's why I hadn't replied to the last two.

Just wanted a thorough discussion since I was here. I enjoyed this and would always keep it civil, no worries http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif To each his own!

As long as you'll still let me give my friend some good-natured crap for buying a Hummer over a Jeep http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[bparker]

sfox:

I will do my talking on the trail and if need be argue face to face and not on the internet.

I doesnt matter if you are driving a monster truck as its all about who is driving it and what THEY are capable of.

I have owned Chevy all my life so please make note. But I do recognize the pros or the Rubis and am not afriad to admit it. But which one did I buy???

Take care,

Brent

[bparker]

Because I have a 10" dong and dont care to argue about it when the proof is on the trial when you make the nae sayers go OMG! Did you see that!! =)

I know what the H3 can do which is why I didnt buy a Rubi Unlimited and lift it then drive a crappy vehichle down the road. I bought an H3 that is 300% better on road and 95% as good on the trail.

/salute

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sfox:
But I don't get why you guys would idly sit by and "be told" how your vehicle is inferior... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[bparker]

hahaha, ya this is true, and I hope I didnt offend anyone. I love my H3 more than I did my Vette. Well maybe my vette just got old to me but I and my GF are having a blast in the H3. I dont care if it was a piece of **** on the trail (which I know its not), I love it!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sfox:
See, you must not be NEARLY as bored at work todayas I am...fighting on the internet can kill an hour faster than just about anything else http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[fuentex]

You guys are a trip http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Sorry I was in a meeting for the last hour and missed out on the fun!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bparker:
I know what the H3 can do which is why I didnt buy a Rubi Unlimited and lift it then drive a crappy vehichle down the road. I bought an H3 that is 300% better on road and 95% as good on the trail.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said, although lifted TJ/LJs can be made to ride quite well and safely, if you're into the nice street ride/room and all of your other valid points along with great offroad capability go H3. (Note that we're debating levels of greatness in offroad capability, I take issue that I "bagged" the H3 anywhere. I admitted you were right on a number of points!).

Please consider, hard as it may be to believe, some people LIKE the Jeep-like ride on-road http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif just like some people like to drop their rides and put on stiff shocks for the on-road handling (this is straying off the topic of the thread though).

If I had my dream, I'd be driving a restored Scrambler around daily http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I LIKE feeling like I'm in a Jeep, it's something different than everything else out there. It's NOT for everyone and I never said it was.

I've already offered to go trail riding with my friend in his H3, I'm very interested to see how it stacks up against my different Jeeps! I tried not to draw too many conclusions and asked for informed opinions. Sorry if it came off another way.

If we need another new, larger DD, you BETTER believe that the H3 would be on the list from what I've read around here (probably ahead of a Jeep GC for the reasons you mentioned) and learned from my friend.

Maybe I'll see you all on the trail sometime and you can show me what an H3 can do.

[bparker]

Yea I thought it was cool too for a few years. But I am getting older and wiser so why have a rig that will dart off the road if you let the steering wheel go if you dont need to? LOL

I know LAs makem smooth but dont lie, you know that solid axel in the front wanders like a chicken with its head cut off down the road. Not to mention death wobble after trailing for a weekend and trying to drive home praying to GOD that you dont hit the "right bump".

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fuentex:
, some people LIKE the Jeep-like ride on-road http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[fuentex]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bparker:
Yea I thought it was cool too for a few years. But I am getting older and wiser so why have a rig that will dart off the road if you let the steering wheel go if you dont need to? LOL

I know LAs makem smooth but dont lie, you know that solid axel in the front wanders like a chicken with its head cut off down the road. Not to mention death wobble after trailing for a weekend and trying to drive home praying to GOD that you dont hit the "right bump".
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Apparently I'm in for a surprise at some point. I have not had this problem nearly to that extent. (Or are you talking about lifted TJs?)

Does it drive like a car? Heck no and I don't want it to. But all my rides back from the trail have been nice cruises at ~80 MPH, it has a real sweet spot in 6th gear on the highway right at 80-85.

[ChevyHighPerformance]

fuentex,

The 1st picture of the H3 looks like the drivers rear tire is about 18 inches below the pass. rear tire and the pass front has about over 16 inches to hit the ground. It looks like the H3 body is being twisted in opposite directions. Would the rubi really be able to keep all 4 wheels on the ground here?

The rubi picture seems to show the rear wheels and pass fron at the same elevation while the drivers front is elevated about 16 inches. It looks like the rubi has a very stiff front sway bar, since the body is aligning with the front wheels.

The 2nd hummer picture seems to show another uneven twist of the h3. The drivers front looks about 10ish inches lower while the pass rear need about 10 more inches to hit the ground.

It could be the way these pitures were taken too.

In both H3 pictures the H3 body seems more flat.

[fuentex]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ChevyHighPerformance:
fuentex,

The 1st picture of the H3 looks like the drivers rear tire is about 18 inches below the pass. rear tire and the pass front has about over 16 inches to hit the ground. It looks like the H3 body is being twisted in opposite directions. Would the rubi really be able to keep all 4 wheels on the ground here?

The rubi picture seems to show the rear wheels and pass fron at the same elevation while the drivers front is elevated about 16 inches. It looks like the rubi has a very stiff front sway bar, since the body is aligning with the front wheels.

The 2nd hummer picture seems to show another uneven twist of the h3. The drivers front looks about 10ish inches lower while the pass rear need about 10 more inches to hit the ground.

It could be the way these pitures were taken too.

In both H3 pictures the H3 body seems more flat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good points but those are the pictures that I have.

Typically, the TJs (read: solid axles) do a good job in keeping tires down in situations like the first H3 is in because the "high" tire pushes the "low" tire to the ground.

Edit: Kinda like this... this one's lifed and all, but you get the idea. This just happens on both ends independently of the body when opposite corners are "high"

http://image24.webshots.com/25/0/73/1/290807301dHvTTT_ph.jpg

[f5fstop]

Might be a dumb question from an experienced Jeep driver who is seriously looking at getting an H3.
There are many mentions of the H3 not having a front locker; however, no mention that in the picture shown of the H3 with the right wheel in the air, the front left tire might be pulling, while the right tire in the air has no power applied.
No, there is no front locker available for the H3, but the power in the front axle is efficiently transferred to the wheel on the ground (non-spinning wheel if both wheels are on the ground and one is spinning).
As for front lockers; ever see someone who is not experience in driving with a locked from axle?

[PARAGON]

This brings up a good point and a place where I'll jump in. The idea that flex is the end all answer to wheeling is backwards thinking. That technology and thought process has been around for 30 years and has been tweaked to the point that it is at it's peak of capability.

Taking a solid axle and being able to force a wheel ,that otherwise might be in the air, to the ground in an effort to gain traction is just not the noblest way to look at it. A vehicle has X,XXX of force to apply to gain friction and therefore keep the tires sticking. To keep things simple, if only one tire has enough downward force applied to it and enough torque applied to it via the drivetrain then at that point the vehicle with move, again putting it simply. In that same situation, if the suspension is forcing the spread of that downward force that friction coefficient is not going to be as high.

So just because you have heard all of your life that SA are the way to go and IS is crappy. Don't believe it. Even mighty solid axle king Jeep has put IFS in theirs and look at the Hurricane concept with it's unique fully independent suspension that Jeep says is unstoppable.

With the traction control systems of both the H2 and the H3, if you get a wheel in the air you can ride your brake and stop the loose wheel and apply all of the torque to the wheel with traction instead of splitting that torque to a wheel that doesn't have as much traction.

A vehicle is a sum of its parts. To debate the singular components of one over the other is moot unless you tie it to how it all operates as a whole.

[FormerJeeper]

The other thing to bear in mind here is that the pictures of the TJs are more than likely with the front swaybar disconnected.

IFS owners can do the same for a lot more flex.
Interested parties should look at the solutions available for IFS "wheeled" rigs like Toyotas.

http://www.4x4spot.com/swaybar.htm

-C

[fuentex]

The grey one (mine) that I posted has the swaybars connected, it's dead stock.

I'm sure the second one I posted has them disconnected though.

I'd be really interested to see an H3 with swaybar discos if someone has a pic. I'd like to see the difference.

[fuentex]

Yeah, I mentioned that it was lifted and not stock when I posted the picture.

[FormerJeeper]

So fox,

You r the offroading Hummer guy...

Is it common to disco the swaybars on H2 offroad?
I used to disco my highly lifted TJ front and rear.
Others used to leave the rear connected and use some form of "Anti-rock" up front.

-C

[FormerJeeper]

BTW, the TJ doesn't have coilovers - look more closely http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-C

[PARAGON]

I failed to mention something in my earlier post. Both the H2/H3 have traction control and will divert torque to the wheel with the highest resistance. While on the trail you can let this happen dynamically or in some cases use the 2 foot technique I described earlier.

I also failed to point out that many consider the H1/HMMWV to be virtually unstoppable sans it's width issues. Simply considering it's ability. And it utilizes a fully independent suspension system but the entire vehicle was designed around that drivetrain/suspension. Again, sum of the parts.

The point I guess I am trying to make is that the idea that the H3 doesn't "unlock" the swaybars might not be an issue because of the overall design of the vehicle. It might be that the engineers feel that in most situations that the traction control/rear locker will be enough to pull it through most obstacles. The truck does not have to have all 4 tires on the ground to move. All it needs is one with just enough traction and enough torque from the drivetrain.

[fuentex]

Coils.... coilovers.... what's the difference? http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[PARAGON]

Let's use that last picture as an example. Do you really thing that Jeep is gaining extra traction with the PS front tire? It is not being "forced" to the ground.

Actually, along those lines I have wanted to see someone put some scales under the PS front tire that's on the ground on the Articulation Rack to see just how much force is being applied to the ground from that tire.

I have seen many of them, and quite honestly the only point of the articulation in those situations is to keep the vehicle from flipping, not gaining extra traction.

[FELNTPSY]

Woops, I'm the friend that started this whole deal. Picked up my wife's H3 last Monday. Fuentex and I will be going wheel'n with in the next couple of months to test the H3 out. I think that both parties have valid points...the Hummer v. Jeep debate will be like the Ford v. Chevy debate....mostly brand loyalty and neither party will total accept the other...just a fact. What should be said and somewhat has been said, is that each vehicle is capable in its own way and in the way that it was designed. The hinderance of most Hummers on our trails here in the east is the large size of the vehicle when compared to the narrower width of a jeep. However as a jeep owner and a Hummer owner now I will just have to see what happens. I WILL wheel the H3 to see how it does and give an honest opinion. It will be difficult to even begin to compare its performance with my jeep since the Scrambler is far from stock.

As for IFS...my bro's XJ has front coils and runs 38 boggers. I have seen him actually over come some obstacles b/c his stiff arse suspension was able to lift one of the front tires over a hole....I couldn't take the same obstacle because the "Rat" is just too damn flexy. However, I've taken other obstacles that the flex allowed me to walk easily up and he flopped on the side.

Two different types of vehicles, both designed for offroad usage, but different driving styles are needed for each and must be adjusted to the vehicle and terrain. I would not drive a stock Unlimited the same way I drive my CJ8, and will not drive the Hummer the same as the 8. The combination of skill, rig capability, rig engineering, and etc. will ultimatly determine what the vehicle can do. Neither rig Hummer or Rubicon of any flavor are designed to be "point-and-shoot" trail rigs.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y193/leebopp/drivewayposershot.bmp