EATON FRONT E-LOCKER [Archive] - Hummer Forums by Elcova

Hummie2

01-14-2003, 01:28 PM

http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifFRONT E-LOCKERS

Hey Steve R I checked this out just for you buddy. I though I would start a new topic on it as I did't want the news to get burried at the end of the old thread.

Front Eaton E-Lockers are in the works for the GM 9.2IFS! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I just got off the phone with the folks @ Reider Racing www.reiderracing.com (http://www.reiderracing.com) and the tech guy told me the E-lockers are coming but are running about 6 months behind schedule. He said hopefully will be available in 2-3 months. Price should be the same as for rear E-Locker which is priced at $695.95 http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ARB air lockers are presently available for front for $695 and require a air compressor for$190. He said the H2's compressor might work but ARB unit requires 130psi pressure min. Would have to check and see if H2 compressor can
make that much pressure.

I have coil rear suspension so therefore no air compressor. I think I will wait for E-Locker.

I usually don't give endorsements but Reider Racing and Rancho Suspension are 2 companies that I have been satisfied with. Reider were the people who modified that Detroit Locker I mentioned in the other thread and it was truly a thing of beauty when they finished with it.

Don

Hummie2

01-14-2003, 01:28 PM

Mike97ZJ

01-19-2003, 12:35 AM

That's great news. That E-Locker looks to be about the best thing since sliced bread, lol.

All the advantages of the ARB, except you don't have to worry about a compresor or the air lines getting ripped out.

An H2 locked at both ends would go just about anywhere! I've seen rigs with dual lockers do some truly amazing things.

I'd like to get one for the rear of my Jeep, but I hate to spend the money on a Dana 35, I really don't think it would hold up.

Hummie2

01-19-2003, 01:17 PM

Mike...

Words just can't do a locker justice. I have personally been places in my old CJ5s in 2wd with rear axle locked (my front driveshaft was out and laying on the floor of shop) that my buddy couldn't go in 4wd with open differentials. We were playing on some dirt piles and in one spot we could get one front wheel and one rear wheel in the air. I could go right through in 2wd no problem, but as soon as he got one wheel on each end in the air in 4wd he was stuck.

Those Dana 35s are little light, but 44s front and rear locked might be awesome. Who knows might be the start of a Grand Cherokee version of a Rubicon there.

Don

Gray

01-19-2003, 03:28 PM

what is the elocker i have heard about it but im not sure exactly what it is or what it does

Gray

Hummie2

01-20-2003, 12:39 AM

Gray...

The E-Locker is what we have in the rear axle instead of a posi-traction. When we push the button on the dash for the locker it locks both the right side and left side rear axles togather making them both turn as one unit. As long as there is one wheel with traction the vehicle will move. Our H2s can only lock the rear E-Locker while they are in 4low lock transfercase mode, otherwise the rear axle is in open mode and functions like a open differential.

In the near future a E-Locker should be available for our front axles.

Don

Steve R

01-20-2003, 05:57 PM

THANKS DON!!!!!

I really appreciate the info. I think I'll end up adding the front locker. I'm almost certain the newer H2's will likely come with it anyways....especially seeing as Jeep & Mercedes have it on some of their models, and I hear there will be a new VW that may also come stock with front & rear locker. Seems to me Hummer should have it if any vehicle has it. I was shocked to find the H1 didn't come with them and that our H2's didn't have front lockers either.

Can anyone explain this: we had just crossed a nice stream and were coming out of the river when we came upon a "rock garden"..lots of boulders that looked forbidding. I proceeded to get into this field of rocks and was being guided through. I had the rear suspension up, the transfer case in 4Lo-locked, and the rear locker on. When the front end had one tire in the air.....the tire in the air would spin...which is fine for an open-differetial...but isn't the traction control supposed to come on and stop that free-spinning wheel and divert power to the traction wheel??? I'm starting to get the feeling that when the e-locker is "on"...the traction control system is off!!??

I can understand turning off traction control to the rear axle/tires...but is the front on or off??? cause we were spinning both rear tires and one front tire in the air. That ain't right???

Hummie2

01-20-2003, 11:13 PM

Steve...

According to what I have read on trac control it should have enough power to pull a 10% grade with only one wheel, but I don't know if that is with or without the aid of the locker. I feel your assumption that only the front axle would be in trac control mode, if the transfercase and rear axle were locked, is correct, but sometimes GM does some really weird stuff with their computer controls and they seem to go against comon sense until you read the theory of operation in the shop manual ( but we have no shop manuals yet).

Whenever we are able to get a locker for the front axle we will truly have All Wheel Drive.

Now think about this for awhile and let me know your thoughts: Do you want to tie the front axle control in with the rear axle control or do you want to keep the controls seperate. With the controls seperate you could select rear, front or both, but tying them togather would probably simplify the installation wiring somewhat.

Don

Mike97ZJ

01-21-2003, 08:31 PM

If I were doing it on my vehicle, I would want to be able to control the front and rear lockers independently.

It'd be nice to have the rear locked when you need it, but the front open so you can steer.

You'd have to be doing some extreme stuff to need a front locker.

Steve R

01-22-2003, 05:46 AM

DAMN GOOD SCHTUFF GUYS!!!

Just so ya know...the two of you are my favorite technical guys when it comes to knowing about 4x4 mechanics (I'd say collectively we rule the roost on this forum).

My thoughts are this: I will DEFINITELY get a rear-locker as soon as a good/reliable one is made available, and I will wait for the E-locker for sure!!! ARB is like 8-track/beta.

As far as switches, definitely seperate controls for each individual locker. I've been told, and to some degree have experienced the lack of steering when you have front & rear lockers on. You lose about 15% good steering with the rear locker on....but when you activate a front locker you lose about 75% your ability to steer well. Definitely gotta have seperate controls and use front-locker sparingly for certain special situations that only demand it. Anyways.....

Here's my thought on the traction control and the rear-end. The traction control works similar to anti-lock braking (but in reverse): it modulates braking to the free-spinning wheel...it inhibits all the torque from going to that one loose wheel. By stopping that free-spinning wheel from turning, the torque is redirected to the wheel on the opposite side.

(sidenote; the Range Rover has an amazing traction control system...the moment a tire looses contact with the ground, the brake is applied to that wheel causing the opposing wheel to keep turning faithfully...it's impressive)

Now, if we lock-up (E-locker) the rear-end you basically have one solid axle. The braking of one wheel ENTIRELY effects the other wheel...because each wheel is essentially now attached to the same axle. You can't individually brake each rear wheel AND for that matter the computer can not distinguish which wheel is slipping: each wheel moves 100% consistent with the other. THEREFORE it stands to reason that the traction control (at least for the rear section) MUST be turned OFF when the rear is locked!

I'd like to think the front-end still has a traction control system working....but who knows???? I did see my air-tire spinning freely while the other sat on the rock. I think that is what happened at least.

This makes me want to take some car jacks and play around in the driveway!!!!

Any thoughts gentlemen?????

As you know, when you have an open differential and one tire is free-spinning (in the air per se)...the other tire not only turns...but rotates at twice the speed of normal

Hummie2

01-22-2003, 01:12 PM

GOOD EXPLANATION THERE STEVE!

Its nice to be able to talk with people that have a good mechanical knowlege of the vehicles they drive. I have been very IMPRESSED by the amount of information presented on this forum. Thanks Jason for making it available for everyone.

I think Steve meant he will get a Front Locker folks as we already have the rear locker from the factory.

I too wan't each locker on seperate controls for all the reasons both you guys described above.

At first I wasn't too keen on the idea that GM had setteled on the idea that the computer could DICTATE to ME that our rear lockers could only be used in "4Low Lock", but I understand why they did it. They did not want any liabilaty issue that might arise from a vehicle at speed that might not have complete control of its steering. For a novice to lockers a vehicle that tends to plow straight ahead when the steering wheel is turned might be disaster just waiting to happen, so therefore the locker in our H2s is limited to 4 Low Lock only. Also another thing about a Locker is it's tendency to "side slip" when both wheels are spinning on a really slippery surface like ice. Having the rear end of a rig "spinout" sideways instead of going straight can really suprise someone if they are not expecting it ( its something you have to experience a few times before you aquire that "Seat of the Pants" feel for when driving with a Locker ).

Steve let us know what you find out when you get done playing with yours in the driveway.

One thing for certain the H2 with it's Anti Skid/Traction Controls for when it's at speed and Locked on both Front and Rear Axle for low speed crawling would be one of the best things going on four wheels.

Don

Steve R

01-22-2003, 04:08 PM

Don,

Thanks for the kind words AND right back at ya!!

Your right....as much as I re-read and edit my writing, some stuff slips by: it's a front-locker that I'm looking to get!

Just some additional thoughts. I've posted the similar inquiry on the H2ml and one person responded in reminding me that the traction control needs two things: 1) you must not be "on" the brakes at all (this foils the computers ability to sensor stuff) and 2) the rpm's/gas must be kept fairly level for a bit of time also for the computer to sense stuff.

You know what's funny....here I sit in my comfy office all calm and collect just thinking about the situation....yet at the time it was happening, there were two spotters giving me orders from outside, one guy in the vehicle with me also contributing and about 7 other rigs watching/waiting to see how it would go. With all the people, exitement and adrenaline in the air....who knows what was going on. The only thing for sure going on was a LOT of fun.

I've got some research to do and some playing around. Maybe I will jack the thing up, put various wheels in the air and play with it in my driveway.

Another thought comes to mind: the rock garden was so turbulent that I wanted to creep through it. One issue I was watching others deal with was this: they'd have to get over an object and would need to apply gas until they basically built-up enough "umph" until the vehicle almost lurched upwards. Sometimes they would almost launch upwards and come back down again to a loud crunching noise, or they'd almost over-shoot the rock and lose the opportunity to pivot or redirect towards the next direction.

To combat this 'lurching' I incorporated some braking. By using a Brake-throttle-modulation I would ascend these rocks gracefully, smoothly and with control....creeping along instead of jolting. Trust me...without control the 6,000 pound H2 becomes a marshmellow wobbling drunkedkly across the rocks crushing and grinding boulders as it stumbles. Usually BTM is used for creating a locker-effect, but in this case it was more for a cushioning stablizer effect. I would just apply light braking in conjuntion with gas (less brake as gas came on, more brake as I came off the gas).

ANYWAYS....it was pointed out to me that braking screws up the traction control system...so maybe this is where I went wrong. Whew....too long a post!

Mike97ZJ

01-22-2003, 08:40 PM

Actually Steve, it sounds like you know exactly what you are doing. That's how you want to drive over rocks, slow and controlled.

When you hit that stuff hard and lurch over things, you can break stuff when you come crashing back down.

It's all about the finese. It takes more skill to creep over something gently than it does to hammer the throttle and use momentum.

I obviously don't have any experience with it, but I've read in a few magazines that the front traction control takes to much wheelspin (in thier opinion) before it kicks in.

You don't want alot of wheelspin in the rocks. When a spinning tire catches traction, again, that's when you can break stuff.

I think using your technique and driving slow is more of a help than that front traction control would be. It's okay to lift a front tire once in a while, as long as you have those two rears pushing you and you make sure you come back down to earth slowly, no harm done.

Hummie2

01-23-2003, 12:31 AM

[QUOTE] "Just some additional thoughts. I've posted the similar inquiry on the H2ml and one person responded in reminding me that the traction control needs two things: 1) you must not be "on" the brakes at all (this foils the computers ability to sensor stuff) and 2) the rpm's/gas must be kept fairly level for a bit of time also for the computer to sense stuff."

Thanks for posting that Steve. That answers alot of questions. I was wondering why factory rep would recomend that you not use Brake/Throttle Modulation,BTM. True you do place more stress on drivetrain using BTM, but if done properly, not enough to hurt anything. Now I feel that their main concern is that the Trac Control is ineffective if you are on the brakes. I am in total agreement with you and Mike in that I will continue use BTM instead of bashing over the rock piles traction control or not.

I can attest that the Trac Control does work at speed. We found a fresh graded gravel road with nice sweeping "S" curves last weekend and decided to play alittle. You could hit the curves hard enough for the rig to break traction and start drifting sideways, let it slide to the apex of the curve and "Gently" apply a little more throttle and feel the Trac Control take over and "Pull" you back out of the corner ready to set up for the next curve. It was totaly awesome and far superior to just regular 4WD. The most fun I've had since I quit racing.

When the front locker becomes available I am definitely going to have one for crawling through the rough stuff using BTM and with H2s Trac Control for faster times we will have the Best of Both Worlds.

Don

Steve R

01-23-2003, 07:52 AM

Thanks for the informative words guys. Agreed, the front-locker is the sweet ticket and I'm in the shop the day it comes out.

I watched as another H2 attempted to go over some rocks and did not really use the brakes. The inexperienced driver just applied gas until the rig lurched up and over the rock....only to come down hard with a nasty crushing noise under the belly. Right there and then I realized I'd be using my brakes along with throttle to regulate my progress.

I don't mean to brag....but heck...I went over and through that rock-garden with gentle fineese....not once crashing down. We took our time, chose our lines and worked it out. The other H2 looked like a hippo grinding itself for pleasure on a pile of rocks: it was brutal and ugly!

So often I see drivers and spotters having total disregard to technique. It's a shame.

As for me, I couldn't even see the rocks below me...I was literally flying blind and being guided by my spotters. I was the driver/controls-technician....they were the pathfinders and guides. It was very cool!!! Gotta do it again and get some pics...my buddy Scott told me he saw the H2 doing all sorts of amazing things to get through there...very impressive.

Mike97ZJ

01-24-2003, 01:45 AM

Sounds good!

Maybe you ought to teach your friends how to drive! http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I'm sure they'd appreciate the pointers.

I know the feeling of having no idea of what's in front of you. It's good to have a spotter you trust. If I don't have a spotter, what I do is pick a line that will put my driver's side tires on the majority of rocks. I can see my front tire if I hang my head out the window a bit, so this minimizes my chances of running into stuff.

Also, I adjust my power mirrors so that I can see the ground and back tires with them. That way I can keep an eye on what the back of the vehicle is doing.

And yeah, have you friends take more pics. I'd like to see some of your truck in the rocks. Maybe you guys ought to bring along an extra person next time just to be cameraman.

Steve R

01-24-2003, 06:38 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike97ZJ:
Maybe you ought to teach your friends how to drive! And yeah, have you friends take more pics. I'd like to see some of your truck in the rocks. Maybe you guys ought to bring along an extra person next time just to be cameraman.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As for teaching friends, you'd think so...but that particular truck was being guided by the guy who pre-ran the trail and he was letting his girlfriend drive it. Two spotters are like two cooks in the kitchen (sometimes).

We did bring a photographer...no idea what happened with/to him. We crossed the river and the rocks were just as you got out....so he was stuck on the other side.

Mike...can you use BTM on a jeep? I was told elsewhere that BTM only works with torsen differentials and that standard diff's don't really work/respond well to btm?

Mike97ZJ

01-25-2003, 01:36 AM

Do you mean will BTM make my open diffs act like limited slips? No, not really.

But I do drive with both feet, as it allows me to creep up a rock, and then get on the brakes and ease myself down slowly. Also, as I don't have that cool drive by wire throttle you guys do, it helps smooth out my throttle imputs. In low range, first gear, it can be a bit jumpy with a 2.72 low range, 3.73 gears, and 30" tires. So if I have some pressure on the brakes at the same time I'm on the gas, it allows me to drive a bit smoother.

That's my thing, I try to drive as smoothly and elegantly as possible. Not only is it much easier on the terrain and vehicle, I also get the satisfaction in knowing it was my driving, and not momentum, that got me over the obstacle.

You'd actually be surprised at how far I can get with open diffs. I have my flexy suspension to thank for that, it's good at keeping all four tires on the ground.

Hummie2

01-25-2003, 09:04 AM

Really Great Stuff Guys

I have enjoyed this thread very much and it has certainly given lots of food for thought. Both you guys, Steve and Mike, are very experienced 4 wheelers and are willing to share your experience and knowledge with others less experienced. This is truly what makes "Wheelin" and this forum so enjoyable.

I have purchased a 6 disc CD "SI2000" GM Service Manual Set. When it arrives I plan on giving the front axle section some "very close scrutiny." I also plan on buying a front E-Locker when they become available. I most likely will install it myself and will post detailed pics of the installation if I do. Not that too many others would do the job theirself, but they might like to see what is involved in the process of installing it.

I am also thinking about some way to make the swaybars with a quick disconnect featue. This would help keep our suspension more complient with the terrain off-road and keep the wheels on the ground, instead of in the air. What do you think? Give me some input.

Don

Mike97ZJ

01-25-2003, 04:40 PM

Thanks for the kind words, Hummie. You sound very experienced and knowledgeable yourself.

And kudos to you if you install that E-Locker yourself. Looks like a complicated job. I'd be leary of installing one in a sold axle, never mind an IFS diff.

The swaybar disconnect sounds like a good idea. I think it will help out in hte rear, but not sure what the difference will be in the front. I have a friend who wheels a '99 GMC 1500, and he removed his front swaybar and didn't notice much of a difference while offroad. The rear of that truck articulates surprisingly well though.

It's kind of the opposite on my Jeep. Disco'ing the front bar makes a world of difference (I actually have a set of JKS Quick Disconnect links) while removing the rear bar doesn't make that much difference at all. I've removed my rear bar, and haven't noticed much of a diff. Actually, I'm going to put it back on whem the weather gets warmer. The bar actually keeps it a little more stable in offcamber situations.

I'm sure you could rig something up. I saw a great idea on one board. A guy took a quick disconnect air coupler and welded the male side to the lower link, and the female side to the swaybar. So you disconnect the swaybar the same way you'd disconnect your impact wrench from an air hose. Ingenious, I think. I'll post a pic if I can find it.

Hummie2

01-25-2003, 07:09 PM

Hey Thanks Mike....

That quick coupler idea sounds neat. I would have not thought of that one myself. I have a small metal lathe/milling/drilling machine combo in my shop at home so that might be a project I can run off when I find some time. The rear of the H2 looks like it would be easy to do and fast to disconnect as its right out in the open. Where did you get your JKS Quick Disconnect Links and do you know if they have a website?

Thanks, Don

Steve R

01-25-2003, 10:45 PM

Hey guys....sorry I missed some convo. Funny how this seems like our own private topic, cool though.

You would think (and it totally makes sense) that the removal of the sway-bar would free-up and essentially liberate each wheel from influence from the other wheel. In theory...but only in application would one really know the actual results. Sounds like your on the right track with making it removable Don....keep up posted!!! (inquiring minds want to know!).

Mike, I spent some time with a buddy of mine who is insanely into 4x4ing. According to him it is not an established fact that SFA is completely superior to IFS...it's definitely a debate and argued issue. The one point I do see is that when one wheel goes up, the other is pushed down...and that would reasonably make sense to offer some benefits. I wonder why it is that Hummer chose the IFS then...no doubt it cost more?

A front-locker is definitely on the list of "must-haves", that should truly make the H2 quite unstoppable. Wish they had made it with one!!

Mike...when I was very serious about buying a Grand Chickedee, I was looking at the 2001 and wanting to lift it a bit and add larger tires. The salesman "looked into it" and came back telling me that the quadra-drive can not be lifted...it was some kind of special 4x4 system and not like the previous 4x4's. Now I find out different...just goes to show ya how you should get a 2nd opinion before taking anyones word for much of anything. Hmmm...might want to get a 2nd opinion on that opinion too! hehehe.

My sides are all scratched up...that darn clear coat scrapes to a white color, and I don't want to buff repeatedly down to my paint...so I'm wondering what to do. I might have gotten a white H2 had I realized this was coming. weep weep weep.

Steve R

01-25-2003, 10:46 PM

Oh yeah...Mike, when I first met you and started talking shop I thought to myself....I bet Hummie2/Don would be into this...gotta get us all hooked up!

Mike97ZJ

01-25-2003, 11:34 PM

I got the QD's from Dirk at www.dpgoffroad.com (http://www.dpgoffroad.com)

Great guy to do business with.

He carries the complete line of JKS products at great prices. He mainly deals in Jeep stuff though.

Not sure of the JKS address, but I think there is a link to it off of the DPG site.

01-26-2003, 04:32 AM

Hey guys, hope you don't mind me butting in.....I have an ignorant question to ask you. I've been asked twice now if our H2s have independent 4-wheel drive. After following you guys in this thread and some of the others I have a much better understanding of some of the mechanical stuff - IFS, SFA, and all the off-road driving modes.. But what is independent 4-wheel drive? If there is independent 4-wheel drive then if would reason that there must be dependent 4-wheel drive??? http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

JJ

Hummie2

01-26-2003, 04:37 AM

Here is a pic of the rear sway setup that I took of the display @ Houston Auto Show. Those JKS QDs might adapt pretty easy to the H2s rear sway Mike.

Steve check the pics of Safe Guard film in the scratch removal posts. Its expensive but probably cheaper than a new paint job.

Hummie2

01-26-2003, 04:55 AM

JJ...
The only ignorant question is the question that is not asked. Feel free to ask anytime, we will do our best to answer.

IFS means Independent Front Suspension (which H2 has). SFA stands for Solid Front Axle ( like on Mike's Jeep Cherokee).

Here is a pic of the H2 IFS. You can see the front "A" arms and front torsion bar in red in this photo.

01-26-2003, 04:59 AM

Hummie2 - man, you have the best photos of the H2 assy. After following several of Mike's and Steve's earlier posts I became more coherent on IFS and SFA, etc..
But what I'm still confused on is this Independent 4-wheel drive thing. Do you think the questions I've been getting referred to Independent Suspension versus solid axles?

JJ

Hummie2

01-26-2003, 05:24 AM

JJ... I think I understand your question alittle better now. There is no such thing as independent fourwheel drive that I know of. We are talking of Independent Front Suspension.

H2 has a fulltime 4 wheel drive meaning that it is always in 4 wheel drive, usually in 4 High Unlocked Mode, meaning that the differential inside the transfercase is unlocked. This will let the front and rear driveshafts turn at different speeds as the vehicle goes around corners and over uneven terrain. If the vehicle were on a slippery surface like ice and the transfercase was unlocked as soon as one wheel lost traction the truck would not move were it not for the Traction Control/ Anti Skid System and the brake computer, just like when one wheel on a 2WD without posi traction looses traction. When the transfercase differential is locked in 4 High Lock or 4 Low Lock both driveshafts have to turn at the same speed as they are locked together inside the transfercase.

The transfercase can be seen in this picture behind the transmission (pretty big isn't it). BTW the thing on the frame rail with all the lines is the control for Anti Skid/ Trac Control.

Hope I made this explanation clear.

01-26-2003, 05:45 AM

I had a feeling the questions I was getting earlier were in reference to Independent Suspension (like the H1 - right). I'd never heard of Independent 4-wheel drive.

JJ

Hummie2

01-26-2003, 06:01 AM

YEP...

Your right JJ. The H1 has 4 Wheel Independent Suspension. The first H2 prototype had 4 Wheel Independent Suspension as well but was changed to IFS with Solid Rear Axle when the H2 went into production.

One more shot of the frame display. This view shows the electric shifter motor (black thing with the wire harness on it) on the left side of transfercase. The small black thing with wire harness at top center above driveshaft is the speedo sensor.

[This message was edited by Hummie2 on January 26, 2003 at 12:16 AM.]

01-26-2003, 01:33 PM

Hummie2 - these photos are great, do you have the entire frame and drivetrain captured? I can see these coming in handy when I'm crawling around underneath checking things out before each and every long distance and off-road trip. If you do, maybe they could be posted in separate topic. http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JJ

Mike97ZJ

01-26-2003, 04:41 PM

Don, after looking at that pic of the rear sway setup you posted, I agree with you. I'm sure a set of JKS links could be adapted to fit pretty easily. The links are straight,and are pretty long. Most JKS links are adjustable for length to accomodate different lift heights.

Another thing to figure out is what to do with the swaybar once it's disco'd. On Jeeps, you can just tuck it up and out of the way. Doesn't look really possible with he H2 setup.

I have another suggestion though, after seeing the pic. Most setups I've seen have the swaybar bolted to the frame, and the links bolted to the axle, not vice versa like in the Hummer. It looks like it's just waiting to get snagged on something, hanging below the axle like that. What I would consider doing is removing the swaybar altogether before you go on a wheeling trip. Ubolt the 2 bolts per side that hold it to the axle, and unbolt the upper links from the frame.

"Mike...when I was very serious about buying a Grand Chickedee, I was looking at the 2001 and wanting to lift it a bit and add larger tires. The salesman "looked into it" and came back telling me that the quadra-drive can not be lifted...it was some kind of special 4x4 system and not like the previous 4x4's. Now I find out different...just goes to show ya how you should get a 2nd opinion before taking anyones word for much of anything. Hmmm...might want to get a 2nd opinion on that opinion too! hehehe"

Steve, just goes to once again prove my theory that car salesmen are for the most part idiots who have no clue about what they sell.

My advice to anyone looking into getting any kind of vehicle is always to find a BB such as this one and ask people who actually have one, and not listen to what the shyster car salesman has to say.

"Mike, I spent some time with a buddy of mine who is insanely into 4x4ing. According to him it is not an established fact that SFA is completely superior to IFS...it's definitely a debate and argued issue. The one point I do see is that when one wheel goes up, the other is pushed down...and that would reasonably make sense to offer some benefits. I wonder why it is that Hummer chose the IFS then...no doubt it cost more?"

Are baiting me here, Steve? Trying to get me into a debate? http://www.elcova.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Well, the H1 has IFS/IRS because it was a military design requirement. They wanted the underbody clearance that the IFS/IRS gives.

I'm sure in the case of the H2, it costs LESS than what SFA would, because the IFS setup is right out of the existing GM parts bin. GM does not make any vehicles with solid front axles anymore. They haven't since 1991, IIRC. I also think that ride quality was a big reason for the IFS. It's easier to make a good riding IFS than it is a SFA. Although Chrysler Corp SFA vehicle ride very nicely.

I don't want to get into that debate about what your buddy said, mostly because I'm way outnumbered here. I'll say this though, short of a purpose built, big $$ IFS system, stock for stock, the SFA is better for rock crawling. Maybe you don't like to rock crawl, but would rather blast through the desert at speed. In that case, IFS is better, and IFS/IRS even better yet.

It all depends on what you want to do with it.

Another thing to think about is that SFA is much easier and cheaper to modify for more height and travel than IFS.

My buddy with the '99 GMC is currently gathering parts and plans to torch out his IFS and swap in a solid axle. This is actually becoming a common swap, if that tells you anything.

JJ, glad to hear that you are getting alot out of these tech topics.

Like Steve said, the only stupid question is the one not asked.

I've been getting alot out of them too. I've really learned alot about the H2 in the few weeks that I've been here.

I'm glad that I can read these forums and have technical discussions like this, and not just read endless posts about which chrome grille guard is better and who makes the best 20" wheels.

[This message was edited by Mike97ZJ on January 26, 2003 at 10:49 AM.]

Hummie2

01-26-2003, 05:38 PM

Mike...

Good point about the sway bar might get snagged. That was my first thought when I saw it for the very first time too. But then I thought about maybe the engineers left it down there for a reason, although they could have designed around the problem altogather. There are quite a few lines, wires, cables and a expensive air compressor & valving set-up above the sway bar. With the sway bar down like it is maybe someone will stop when the hear it draging on the rocks instead of continuing on and getting some more expensive parts snagged that are above it. Sometimes things are a trade-off when it comes to design and ease of production & costs usually win out.

Here are a few more pics of the rear and some of the more of the air compressor assy.& ride height sensors. It could be easy to damage in some cases, one of the reasons I decided to go with rear coil suspension, besides the coils were $1175 less cost and ride great.

Hummie2

01-26-2003, 05:48 PM

Picture of the rear air suspension bag. The bag is completely deflated here and not resting in its seat on top of the rear axle.

Hummie2

01-26-2003, 05:56 PM

Heres one of the air compressor assy. and associated valving. I think the round object partly visible on the right to right of the compressor motor is a air drier/ filter assy., not sure though.

I was supprised at the size of the compressor. Larger than what I expected. Its rated a 11 amps. and 1/4 hp. motor.

[This message was edited by Hummie2 on January 26, 2003 at 12:04 PM.]

Hummie2

01-26-2003, 06:08 PM

One last shot of the ride height sensor. It sits atop the upper control arm pretty close to the tire.

buddy

01-26-2003, 06:11 PM

Mike,

I've seen more and more of GM IFS getting switched over to SFA. I have a friend who has done a few conversions using Ford parts. He did his first about 5-6 years ago for a customer who uses it now as a show truck.

The debate over SFA and IFS is a no win deal.
You'll never convince hard core SFA guys, there's anything else, and I can see the point.
I've seen them do things in their trucks that I wouldn't do in my Chevy, or for that matter, couldn't do.

I think most of the hard core off-roaders would prefer SFA. I only do moderate off roading these days, so the IFS works for me. Heck, that's the only act GM's got.

Buddy

Mike97ZJ

01-26-2003, 09:36 PM

Buddy,

Yeah, I don't want to get into that debate. Everyone has thier own opinions about it, and sometimes its like talking to a brick wall. It's very hard to change someone's opinion.

IFS is good enough for most situations. Add a front locker, and your all set.

Don, those are some great pics you have. I see what you mean about all that air suspension junk in the way. Not much room up there for the swaybar. Good call on going with the coils, seem to me the air suspension is just another thing that will need fixing somewhere down the line. I tend to like things simpler and can do without electronic gadgets like that.

Keep us posted if you ever get around to designing some disconnect links or experiment with removing the rear bar.

I wonder if it would be possible to engineer disconnects that will allow the whole bar to be removed? Maybe get some QD's for the links themselves, and then get some wing nuts or something similar for the bolts that attch the bar to the axle. I'm thinking something like those wing nut valve cover bolts they make. The ones shaped like a "T" that you don't need a wrench to remove.

Before I got my JKS QD's, my "quick disconnects" consisted of a 1/2" drive ratchet with a torx bit and a 18mm box end. Reason I bought the JKS units was that my stock links needed replacing, so at $40 each from the dealer, I might as well fork over the extra $40 and get the JKS.

Steve R

01-27-2003, 04:18 AM

Well....I suppose it's only proper to welcome JJ and Buddy to what has become the premier tech-thread on this forum. It's all good (so long as JJ doesn't go nuts over the air compressor issue...sheesh).

Mike....I'm not trying to drag you into an SFA/IFS debate or anything, I'm seriously just fascinated by the technical merits of each. I don't really think of things in terms of opinions...we just study facts and support conclusions.

I sincerely appreciate the education on the subject matter. At present, my thought is that GM should have given the H2 either the H1's gear-driven hubs for awesome clearance OR have gone with an SFA...and that's what I'll be telling the reps and others! And when someone asks why GM didn't use SFA....I'll also know that it wasn't part of their existing parts bin.

What it comes down to is this: I didn't design, engineer or build the H2....I merely laid down the cash for it. I have no 'defensive ego' to protect in supporting the thing. It is what it is and I'm open to knowing/understanding both the strong points as well as the weak. With that said....Jeeps suck!!! (kidding)

Don, the air suspension is actually pretty cool. Not only does it offer all the cool sounds of the air-release occassionally, but it does jack the back up for additional clearance...that clearance DID make a difference over that rock-garden as compared to rigs that didn't have it! GM typically just calls the feature "auto-ride", but by adding a switch and sensor, they were able to allow it to be used also as a height control.

Sway-bars....yeah, I see them hanging down and wonder why they did that. Oh well....could removing them while offroading really make that much a difference? I can see how it would allow each wheel to be more independent....but by how much?

I became friends with Tom Cepek (son of Dick Cepek). He's working on a suspesion system where shocks can actually follow the terrain and the computer can make adjustments. We've all seen those old cruiser-cars that hop and move around....well, he's going to have some kind of deal where each wheel can be manipulated. Imagine running a side-slope and still being level inside the vehicle. The computer could totally raise one wheel and fully extend the other (better then simulating SFA). Course...this is in the works AND will be costly....but the future is indeed interesting.

Anyways..that's long enough a post. And Mike....which chrome grille guard is better and who makes the best 20" wheels??

Hummie2

01-27-2003, 01:44 PM

Guys...

That is what is so Great about the H2. We have so many choices of options from the factory " do you wan't air suspension with that or standard?" not just color, fabric, or stereo choices. Presently to get the height adjust feature with a standard coil suspension I would have to go with a aftermarket air shock similar to what is on a Escalade or Tahoe from the factory. Tom Cepek's suspension might be the "Hot Ticket" when it becomes available.

One thing that is not obvious in the picture I posted above is that the sway bar does not protrude out any farther than what the tire does and therefore does Not affect the H2's angle of departure. The only place the bar might get hit would be in the "Rock Gardens". Only way to find out whether disconnecting the sway bar will help axle articulation is do a "Ramp Index" with it connected and disco'ed and see how much the numbers change.

Steve... over in the General Discussion sec. I posted a picture of the rear bumper height of my standard coils in the "Headlight Setting.. a Theory" thread. Mine measured 35 3/8 inches to top of rear bumper. If you find time can you measure your bumber height as I did in the picture with your H2 at both "normal" and "lifted" ride height settings and post the measurements. It might be interesting to compare apples to oranges for the people here to see how the two suspensions differ from each other. I do know that they use different rear shocks on each of them.

Don

TonkaH2

01-27-2003, 07:14 PM

Yikes, my truck is being built as we speak, and I'm suddenly rethinking the air spring assembly/ride height sensor concept. It does look easy to break, and there have been a few failures. . . hmmm. What a revolting development.

-Jack
Yellow H2 adv. on order [forever]
Alaska to ??? June '03
www.sunspotnatural.com (http://www.sunspotnatural.com)

Mike97ZJ

01-27-2003, 09:06 PM

Well, I think the only way to settle it is for one of you guys to grab your socket set and crawl under there and unbolt that swaybar.

But first, find some kind of obstacle you can climb up with one front wheel to test your travel. Climb up as far as you can before a rear wheel lifts, then take a picture. Either that, or place a rear tire on it and back up the obstacle.

Go back home, unbolt the swaybar, and then go do it again and take another pic.

Doesn't have to be offroad. A good sized rock, the edge of a culvert, even the edge of a loading dock ramp will work.

Steve... I'm happy to share any info that I have on the SFA thing. I was just kidding you about the debate thing. I just don't want to go spouting off about the SFA and come off like I'm trying to be superior or anything.

And I know you didn't design the truck, but there's no reason you can't defend it or be proud of it.

I agree with you about the geared hubs. It would have been really cool if the H2 had them up front, along with a solid rear axle. They actually make straight axles with hubs like that, now THAT would be really cool, to have those bad boys front and rear.

Don.....As far as that swaybar, the thing that I noticed is that it looks pretty vulnerable bolted below the axle like that. My shock mounts hang down below the axle in much the same way, and I've nailed them pretty good on rocks. The shock mounts are pretty beefy, much more beefy than the way that sway is attached. I figure you got 6k lbs of Hummer moving forward and a rock snags just the bar, you're likely to shear it right off if you hit it hard enough.

I guess it depends on the wheeling you do. Around here, we have a lot of stumps and things like that in addition to rocks. One time I thought I cleared a log in the trail, but I ended up with it wedged underneath my t-case skidplate. I had to rock it back and forth a bit to free it.

Oh well, that's enough for now. I'm off to my welding class.

You know, I really love these tech discussions.

Maybe we ought to get our own forum, LOL.

Mike97ZJ

01-28-2003, 01:06 AM

Here's a few pics of my Jeep with the swaybar connected and disconnected. I figured I'd post them for the sake of....well just for the sake of me wanting to post pics, LOL.

This is my ZJ up on a rock with no rear swaybar and the front bar is connected.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid47/p0ef53956b63e284c93be46b473f128d2/fcc2ff7e.jpg.orig.jpg

This is my Grand on a different rock, but with the front swaybar DISconnected this time. It's different angle than the other pic, but you get the idea.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid47/pbaa88937d06a7c34ab57dabad1661d9c/fcc2ff80.jpg.orig.jpg

You can see that on my vehicle, it makes quite a bit of difference.

I know this doesn't really relate to what we're talking about, but hey, I felt like posting pics.

1997 Grand Cherokee TSi
It's got some lift, skids, and rock rails, among other things.

*member of the "No Hummer Krew"*