Well, like I already said, we did not stay on the throttle and we were not blasting through the obstacle. We were climbing up a hill at the same speed four other H2's had just done. Very good advice though for those who haven't wheeled before. I know you guys think the H2 is without any problems and anything that happens has GOT to be the drivers fault (Gee, sounds like the typical Hummer rep response). I am honestly not here to bad mouth the H2. We REALLY liked it. But after three straight outings with breakage we figured we would cut our losses. I shared our experiance to get a conversation going about a known problem and for folks to share solutions they have found, and I thank those who contributed.

The dealer offerd us $44K and we keep the rack, lights, ladder and winch. Happy trails, folks.

Well, like I already said, we did not stay on the throttle and we were not blasting through the obstacle. We were climbing up a hill at the same speed four other H2's had just done. Very good advice though for those who haven't wheeled before. I know you guys think the H2 is without any problems and anything that happens has GOT to be the drivers fault (Gee, sounds like the typical Hummer rep response). I am honestly not here to bad mouth the H2. We REALLY liked it. But after three straight outings with breakage we figured we would cut our losses. I shared our experiance to get a conversation going about a known problem and for folks to share solutions they have found, and I thank those who contributed.

The dealer offerd us $44K and we keep the rack, lights, ladder and winch. Happy trails, folks.

Ok- So perhaps my previous post answers a) and b) don't apply, but not neccessarily. A product manager may just be a guy that's good at moving cars off the lot. I'm sure there are a few engineers that designed the H2 that couldn't hold a candle to some of the forum members here, out on a trail. Perhaps the guy was just trying to massage your ego. Did you get your upgrades through him? If you don't want to accept any responsibility for your driving technique then maybe look at the fact that you modified the stock vehicle, and perhaps did not complete the job. Maybe beefing up the tie rods as well as some other components becomes a neccessary evil after lifting the vehicle and increasing tire size, given your style of driving. The guys making lifts don't know if your cruising the mall or running Baja, so why would they tell you that other modifications may be neccessary. I assume that Rod Hall isn't racing H2's with all stock parts either. I'm all for people modifying their H2, but once you start that process you also must accept responsibility for the results. I believe the H2 meets or exceeds the goals of it's design. Comparing the H1's progression and redesign to the H2 isn't really applicable either as the H1 is designed and held to a much different criteria than the H2.
There are far too many great H2 offroad stories and pics on this site alone to give your viewpoint any merit. Sounds more like sour grapes.

Ok- So perhaps my previous post answers a) and b) don't apply, but not neccessarily. A product manager may just be a guy that's good at moving cars off the lot. I'm sure there are a few engineers that designed the H2 that couldn't hold a candle to some of the forum members here, out on a trail. Perhaps the guy was just trying to massage your ego. Did you get your upgrades through him? If you don't want to accept any responsibility for your driving technique then maybe look at the fact that you modified the stock vehicle, and perhaps did not complete the job. Maybe beefing up the tie rods as well as some other components becomes a neccessary evil after lifting the vehicle and increasing tire size, given your style of driving. The guys making lifts don't know if your cruising the mall or running Baja, so why would they tell you that other modifications may be neccessary. I assume that Rod Hall isn't racing H2's with all stock parts either. I'm all for people modifying their H2, but once you start that process you also must accept responsibility for the results. I believe the H2 meets or exceeds the goals of it's design. Comparing the H1's progression and redesign to the H2 isn't really applicable either as the H1 is designed and held to a much different criteria than the H2.
There are far too many great H2 offroad stories and pics on this site alone to give your viewpoint any merit. Sounds more like sour grapes.

bad dawg,
since you have to let it go, i don't want you to be upset every time you go into the garage and stub your toe on the rack, ladder and winch, so how much are you willing to sell them for so you have peace of mind???

bad dawg,
since you have to let it go, i don't want you to be upset every time you go into the garage and stub your toe on the rack, ladder and winch, so how much are you willing to sell them for so you have peace of mind???

He he

He he

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bad Dawg:
I know you guys think the H2 is without any problems and anything that happens has GOT to be the drivers fault (Gee, sounds like the typical Hummer rep response). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There is a difference between "having problems" and there being a design flaw, at which you are trying to say. The tie rod is obviously a weak link, but it is a weak link on many vehicles. Personally I would rather be replacing $50 tie rods than replacing a front differential or something. The tie rod bending might be an indicator of something wrong, either in setup or driving and is bending for a reason. It did not bend on the other H2s, as you mentioned, going over the same obstacle, so the only logical reasoning is either your setup caused it or your driving did. Why is that so hard to grasp from our perspective?

As someone has stated on the board before, the tie rod can be considered something like a "fuse" for the front end, bending or breaking before major damage occurs. By the way, many, if not most, off-roaders (before there were H2s or H1s) carried extra tie rods. It is probably the most common breakage on the trail.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bad Dawg:
I know you guys think the H2 is without any problems and anything that happens has GOT to be the drivers fault (Gee, sounds like the typical Hummer rep response). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There is a difference between "having problems" and there being a design flaw, at which you are trying to say. The tie rod is obviously a weak link, but it is a weak link on many vehicles. Personally I would rather be replacing $50 tie rods than replacing a front differential or something. The tie rod bending might be an indicator of something wrong, either in setup or driving and is bending for a reason. It did not bend on the other H2s, as you mentioned, going over the same obstacle, so the only logical reasoning is either your setup caused it or your driving did. Why is that so hard to grasp from our perspective?

As someone has stated on the board before, the tie rod can be considered something like a "fuse" for the front end, bending or breaking before major damage occurs. By the way, many, if not most, off-roaders (before there were H2s or H1s) carried extra tie rods. It is probably the most common breakage on the trail.

I think something VERY important was hit on here but is not being given much merit and that is BTM. I got into several situations in the last two weeks where I have seen other H2s break things. We however did not and I make sure to keep one foot on the break at all times to "stop" any wheel spin when tires come off the ground or lose traction.

If you are not doing this, it is very likely that your front end problems are DRIVER ERROR. I don't see any trucks out there that are going to take the abuse of having huge and heavy 35 or 37 inch tires and wheels slammed back into the ground while rotating fast. You might also have to take into account the 7000 pounds sitting on those tires as well. That energy HAS to be absorbed by something and if the spinning tire is forced into the ground to where it gets traction enough to stop it from spnning that energy is going right into the front end.

Front Locker is next on my list of modifications.

Anyway, that is just my opinion and I am not trying to force it on anyone, but years of 4x4 experience, do not equate to years of H2 driving experience. It is quite a different vehicle.

I think something VERY important was hit on here but is not being given much merit and that is BTM. I got into several situations in the last two weeks where I have seen other H2s break things. We however did not and I make sure to keep one foot on the break at all times to "stop" any wheel spin when tires come off the ground or lose traction.

If you are not doing this, it is very likely that your front end problems are DRIVER ERROR. I don't see any trucks out there that are going to take the abuse of having huge and heavy 35 or 37 inch tires and wheels slammed back into the ground while rotating fast. You might also have to take into account the 7000 pounds sitting on those tires as well. That energy HAS to be absorbed by something and if the spinning tire is forced into the ground to where it gets traction enough to stop it from spnning that energy is going right into the front end.

Front Locker is next on my list of modifications.

Anyway, that is just my opinion and I am not trying to force it on anyone, but years of 4x4 experience, do not equate to years of H2 driving experience. It is quite a different vehicle.

Bad Dog I'm over at the place quite often.
The person making the SS sleeves is over there too.
Seems the tierods won't stand up to 500 or 600hp Dmax 4wd launches on asphalt.
Hate to see u get rid of the H2.
U got a PM and pic.

Bad Dog I'm over at the place quite often.
The person making the SS sleeves is over there too.
Seems the tierods won't stand up to 500 or 600hp Dmax 4wd launches on asphalt.
Hate to see u get rid of the H2.
U got a PM and pic.

Mr Paragon, one more time....I have already said it was my fault. I overestimated the capabilities of the H2 for my needs. Why is that so hard for you to hear (read)? Could it have been my driving or my wife's? Maybe but if we were going any slower we would have been stopped. That leaves two other explainations. One is that the mild lift, larger more aggressive tires, slightly wider wheels with slightly more offset and a winch on the front all contributed to pushing the H2's tie rod capabilities beyond it's threshhold of strength. The second could simply be that the tie rods (and perhaps the whole front end) need to be beefier. Actually, there could be a third reason, that being a combination of the first two. I believe it's behind door number three.

FRGMSTR - You are so right. I have been wheeling since I came home from Nam in '72 and the H2 is a whole different beast.

DURAMAXTIM - I forgot how to get to the PM ( ). Uh, Are you saying you have some experiance with launching a 500 to 600hp Dmax? Wow. I'm impressed. Mine is only 400hp. Thanks for the info. I may look into them for my Dmax. The H2 goes to the dealer as soon as I take off the rack and ladder. Dispite what folks might think, we REALLY liked ours and we wish we could feel confident it would have held up without spending another thousand dollars. Besides, I heard yesterday that regular gas is expected to hit $3 a gallon by July.

Mr Paragon, one more time....I have already said it was my fault. I overestimated the capabilities of the H2 for my needs. Why is that so hard for you to hear (read)? Could it have been my driving or my wife's? Maybe but if we were going any slower we would have been stopped. That leaves two other explainations. One is that the mild lift, larger more aggressive tires, slightly wider wheels with slightly more offset and a winch on the front all contributed to pushing the H2's tie rod capabilities beyond it's threshhold of strength. The second could simply be that the tie rods (and perhaps the whole front end) need to be beefier. Actually, there could be a third reason, that being a combination of the first two. I believe it's behind door number three.

FRGMSTR - You are so right. I have been wheeling since I came home from Nam in '72 and the H2 is a whole different beast.

DURAMAXTIM - I forgot how to get to the PM ( ). Uh, Are you saying you have some experiance with launching a 500 to 600hp Dmax? Wow. I'm impressed. Mine is only 400hp. Thanks for the info. I may look into them for my Dmax. The H2 goes to the dealer as soon as I take off the rack and ladder. Dispite what folks might think, we REALLY liked ours and we wish we could feel confident it would have held up without spending another thousand dollars. Besides, I heard yesterday that regular gas is expected to hit $3 a gallon by July.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bad Dawg:
Mr Paragon, one more time....I have already said it was my fault. I overestimated the capabilities of the H2 for my needs. Why is that so hard for you to hear (read)? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ok, Mr. Bill Clinton double-speak. It is very clear what you are saying, that's why you are getting a response.

If you "were going any slower you would have been stopped" then why did your "front end start bouncing", were you jumping up and down on it or something. Only speed, either in wheel spin or vehicle speed is going to cause the front end to start bouncing.

You didn't overestimate the capabilities of the H2, as stated here before, compare what you were doing to the pics and videos from PhilD, FRGMSTR, JNSFOX, ALEC W, Detonate, DRTYFN, etc. You overestimated YOUR common sense and insulting everyone's intelligence by claiming otherwise.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bad Dawg:
Mr Paragon, one more time....I have already said it was my fault. I overestimated the capabilities of the H2 for my needs. Why is that so hard for you to hear (read)? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ok, Mr. Bill Clinton double-speak. It is very clear what you are saying, that's why you are getting a response.

If you "were going any slower you would have been stopped" then why did your "front end start bouncing", were you jumping up and down on it or something. Only speed, either in wheel spin or vehicle speed is going to cause the front end to start bouncing.

You didn't overestimate the capabilities of the H2, as stated here before, compare what you were doing to the pics and videos from PhilD, FRGMSTR, JNSFOX, ALEC W, Detonate, DRTYFN, etc. You overestimated YOUR common sense and insulting everyone's intelligence by claiming otherwise.

Well, I knew you would get down to this level sooner or later. You usually do. I have been talking about myself, my rig and the problems I have had with it. You, sir, always seem to start attacking people on a personal level as soon as you see the opportunity. You seem to take any critique of the H2 as a personal attack. Don't you get tired of taking almost every thread down to this level where the topic gets lost in your ranting? Get a life.

For all of those who are reading this to try to find some useful information I appologize for letting the door open for Paragon to trash yet another thread.

Well, I knew you would get down to this level sooner or later. You usually do. I have been talking about myself, my rig and the problems I have had with it. You, sir, always seem to start attacking people on a personal level as soon as you see the opportunity. You seem to take any critique of the H2 as a personal attack. Don't you get tired of taking almost every thread down to this level where the topic gets lost in your ranting? Get a life.

For all of those who are reading this to try to find some useful information I appologize for letting the door open for Paragon to trash yet another thread.

Right.... attacking..... Right...... How about pointing out the obvious, that would be more accurate. Please, don't flatter yourself.

You are on a public forum that consists mainly of H2 owners and you expect to get away with the comments you have made without any contestation. The truth can be hard to swallow some times can't it? You can't reconcile your many comments on this so you view my comments as "attacking" or "ranting." I think it's only fair that a logical and opposite opinion to yours be offered since your facts seem to be all over the place.

It's is awfully infantile to suggest that by my providing a different opinion than yours, you see it as "trashing yet another thread."

Right.... attacking..... Right...... How about pointing out the obvious, that would be more accurate. Please, don't flatter yourself.

You are on a public forum that consists mainly of H2 owners and you expect to get away with the comments you have made without any contestation. The truth can be hard to swallow some times can't it? You can't reconcile your many comments on this so you view my comments as "attacking" or "ranting." I think it's only fair that a logical and opposite opinion to yours be offered since your facts seem to be all over the place.

It's is awfully infantile to suggest that by my providing a different opinion than yours, you see it as "trashing yet another thread."

Duramaxtim- Thank you for the pictures. I am seriously thinking of using the sleeves on the Duramax. And the price is great, not over priced like most things aimed at the H2 market.

Duramaxtim- Thank you for the pictures. I am seriously thinking of using the sleeves on the Duramax. And the price is great, not over priced like most things aimed at the H2 market.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bad Dawg:

My question is that we are close to getting rid of the H2 if we can't feel like we can go out and do some mild playing without feeling safe in doing so. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> However, we may very likely trade back in our H2 afterall. We will be losing money but we feel that we should not be having to replace parts like the tie rods to bring up the quality of a rig like this. The tie rods are an obvious weak point and dispite the fact we have a mild lift we should not be having to improve the parts. We have been building rigs for over 20 years and this is the first time this has happened. Too bad, we really like the H2 otherwise, but we bought it to use it as advertised, not to commute in. We don't feel safe going out on even a mild trail without something else breaking. Good luck to you all who use your rigs.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> We were really hoping we could make it on just one outing without busting something else. I know this forum will blast us for saying all this, and believe me I hate coming to this conclusion, but I don't feel the H2 is what it is advertised to be. It might be fine for those who like fixing broken parts all the time or for those of you who never see the dirt, but I need something I can depend on. Damn, I hate getting rid of it, but we want to USE it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So you don't understand how these comments might be inflamatory on this site. Secondly many here may feel that you are passing out misinformation. Those that believe that their H2 is rugged and capable and that someone who may be considering getting an H2 deserves to here both sides of the story. You are entitled to express your viewpoint here just don't expect it to be accepted as gospel. If I wanted to add a few more quotes from you in this thread, I could very well make a strong case for the frequent damage being completely due to your driving technique( with respect to H2)or not willing to make a thorough upgrade to your truck. By the way why was it fine to spend the cash on a lift, larger tires, and increase the engine power, but not beef up the steering components? By placing yourself beyond reproach you attacked everyone else here who is passionate about their H2 and have had many "safe" off road trips.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bad Dawg:

My question is that we are close to getting rid of the H2 if we can't feel like we can go out and do some mild playing without feeling safe in doing so. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> However, we may very likely trade back in our H2 afterall. We will be losing money but we feel that we should not be having to replace parts like the tie rods to bring up the quality of a rig like this. The tie rods are an obvious weak point and dispite the fact we have a mild lift we should not be having to improve the parts. We have been building rigs for over 20 years and this is the first time this has happened. Too bad, we really like the H2 otherwise, but we bought it to use it as advertised, not to commute in. We don't feel safe going out on even a mild trail without something else breaking. Good luck to you all who use your rigs.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> We were really hoping we could make it on just one outing without busting something else. I know this forum will blast us for saying all this, and believe me I hate coming to this conclusion, but I don't feel the H2 is what it is advertised to be. It might be fine for those who like fixing broken parts all the time or for those of you who never see the dirt, but I need something I can depend on. Damn, I hate getting rid of it, but we want to USE it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So you don't understand how these comments might be inflamatory on this site. Secondly many here may feel that you are passing out misinformation. Those that believe that their H2 is rugged and capable and that someone who may be considering getting an H2 deserves to here both sides of the story. You are entitled to express your viewpoint here just don't expect it to be accepted as gospel. If I wanted to add a few more quotes from you in this thread, I could very well make a strong case for the frequent damage being completely due to your driving technique( with respect to H2)or not willing to make a thorough upgrade to your truck. By the way why was it fine to spend the cash on a lift, larger tires, and increase the engine power, but not beef up the steering components? By placing yourself beyond reproach you attacked everyone else here who is passionate about their H2 and have had many "safe" off road trips.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BKLYNH2:
By the way why was it fine to spend the cash on a lift, larger tires, and increase the engine power, but not beef up the steering components? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Bad Dawg, that's a darn good question. By all means get rid of something you no longer enjoy. I'm sure you have valid reasons -- but bad tie-rod ain't it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BKLYNH2:
By the way why was it fine to spend the cash on a lift, larger tires, and increase the engine power, but not beef up the steering components? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Bad Dawg, that's a darn good question. By all means get rid of something you no longer enjoy. I'm sure you have valid reasons -- but bad tie-rod ain't it.

My humble apologies for trying to explain what happened and to answer questions (such as: Q. We must have been "blasting" up the hill. A. No, we were going slow") My intent wasn't to get you guys excited but to talk about a problem that more people than I have had and to figure out how to fix it. I have said that my experiance was my fault and that it was not just one thing but many that contributed to it. I also wanted to warn folks that if they modify their H2's then be prepared for things like what happened to me. I did say that it could have been our driving that caused it.
Quote: "So you don't understand how these comments might be inflamatory on this site."

From my earlier post:
"I know this forum will blast us for saying all this...". I know this from observing on here that some folks are hypersensitive to the notion that the H2 could be improved.

I don't have a problem with folks discussing what did or could have happened and trying to solve the problem. But turning it personal solves nothing. If you guys want to continue to flame on and believe that there isn't something going on with the front ends and that there aren't people working on fixes (see all the tie rod fixes shown on here and the tie rod "shield" on the H3T as examples of improvements) then have at it.

I still believe that the H2 is an awesome rig. I was not trying to chase anyone away from buying an H2. Just understand it's limitations both in stock form and modified.

My humble apologies for trying to explain what happened and to answer questions (such as: Q. We must have been "blasting" up the hill. A. No, we were going slow") My intent wasn't to get you guys excited but to talk about a problem that more people than I have had and to figure out how to fix it. I have said that my experiance was my fault and that it was not just one thing but many that contributed to it. I also wanted to warn folks that if they modify their H2's then be prepared for things like what happened to me. I did say that it could have been our driving that caused it.
Quote: "So you don't understand how these comments might be inflamatory on this site."

From my earlier post:
"I know this forum will blast us for saying all this...". I know this from observing on here that some folks are hypersensitive to the notion that the H2 could be improved.

I don't have a problem with folks discussing what did or could have happened and trying to solve the problem. But turning it personal solves nothing. If you guys want to continue to flame on and believe that there isn't something going on with the front ends and that there aren't people working on fixes (see all the tie rod fixes shown on here and the tie rod "shield" on the H3T as examples of improvements) then have at it.

I still believe that the H2 is an awesome rig. I was not trying to chase anyone away from buying an H2. Just understand it's limitations both in stock form and modified.

BKLYNH2 and H2Finally..To answer your question of "why add a lift, larger tires and maybe 30 more horse and not beef up the steering?" Because I have made the same mods on many other rigs in the past and haven't had to replace the steering componets. On those rigs and the H2 we only used them for mild trail riding and I did not expect the H2 to not be as strong as they were/are ('72 1/2 ton Chevy, '76 1/2 ton chevy, '76 Land Cruiser, '97 GMC 3/4 ton, 2001 1 ton Chevy). I have completely changed out the steering on our race rig because I knew how it was going to be used and what the stock parts could handle. You are right, the tie rod by itself isn't it. Some have pointed out that just changing out the tie rod might just push the problem to another part. By comparison to my other rigs the H2 was a mild build, so I did not expect what happened. For $60K I expected the H2 to handle what I did. I do not want to take anymore time and money to bring it up to my expectations.

I may be young at heart but I'm an old fart with just a few years experiance I do know how to drive off road as does my wife. We save the bashing for the race rig.

You guys and gals have fun and enjoy your H2's. We're going racing.......

BKLYNH2 and H2Finally..To answer your question of "why add a lift, larger tires and maybe 30 more horse and not beef up the steering?" Because I have made the same mods on many other rigs in the past and haven't had to replace the steering componets. On those rigs and the H2 we only used them for mild trail riding and I did not expect the H2 to not be as strong as they were/are ('72 1/2 ton Chevy, '76 1/2 ton chevy, '76 Land Cruiser, '97 GMC 3/4 ton, 2001 1 ton Chevy). I have completely changed out the steering on our race rig because I knew how it was going to be used and what the stock parts could handle. You are right, the tie rod by itself isn't it. Some have pointed out that just changing out the tie rod might just push the problem to another part. By comparison to my other rigs the H2 was a mild build, so I did not expect what happened. For $60K I expected the H2 to handle what I did. I do not want to take anymore time and money to bring it up to my expectations.

I may be young at heart but I'm an old fart with just a few years experiance I do know how to drive off road as does my wife. We save the bashing for the race rig.

You guys and gals have fun and enjoy your H2's. We're going racing.......

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bad Dawg:
You guys and gals have fun and enjoy your H2's. We're going racing....... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I enjoy my all the time and push it way beyond it published specifications without issue. I just don't allow my front end to START bouncing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bad Dawg:
You guys and gals have fun and enjoy your H2's. We're going racing....... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I enjoy my all the time and push it way beyond it published specifications without issue. I just don't allow my front end to START bouncing.

rubberduck tierod
pic1

rubberduck tierod
pic1

pic2

pic2

I can't help but think that he is going to charge a fortune for those once he releases them.

I may have to just keep a few stock spare handy instead.

I can't help but think that he is going to charge a fortune for those once he releases them.

I may have to just keep a few stock spare handy instead.