Attn: gun experts

[Racer-X]

Originally Posted by PARAGON

I'll reiterate my original suggestion then. Why do you want to carry a gun then?

I'll clarify - I would never attempt to PULL a gun on someone who had one pointed at me. That would be asking to get shot. I would have no problem pulling the trigger if I thought my life was in danger.

[PARAGON]

Originally Posted by Racer-X

I'll clarify - I would never attempt to PULL a gun on someone who had one pointed at me. That would be asking to get shot. I would have no problem pulling the trigger if I thought my life was in danger.

It was clear the first time and you didn't change things. How do you know the person pointing the gun doesn't subscribe to the same principles that was iterated to you above about pointing a gun at someone that you don't intend to kill.

Why take the chance? Again, if you are not comfortable in pulling and using a handgun in that situation, you do not need to seek it's use as personal protection. You are simply looking for additional trouble that you don't want. That is the one time in your life you would most assuredly want that protection, yet you state you wouldn't make use of it. Someone is pointing a gun at you, you can't assume they are NOT going to shoot you. THAT'S asking to get shot.

[ShaggyX]

CC is just asking for trouble, and is more likely to escalate the issue then anything else. That is all.

[CO Hummer]

Originally Posted by ShaggyX

CC is just asking for trouble, and is more likely to escalate the issue then anything else. That is all.

Do you mind if I quote you for a Deep Thinker's Hall of Fame nomination?

[ShaggyX]

Originally Posted by CO Hummer

Do you mind if I quote you for a Deep Thinker's Hall of Fame nomination?

I will gladly endorse this request.

[PARAGON]

Originally Posted by ShaggyX

CC is just asking for trouble, and is more likely to escalate the issue then anything else. That is all.

I agree if you don't pay them off every month. If you carry the balance the interest rates will eat you up.

[Mrs.ssippi]

Originally Posted by PhilD

Spoken like a true whining liberal "Don't do anything to upset them and they'll leave you alone" Shoot them dead and then see if they can hurt you anymore

Phil, I like how you think!

[Andy C]

The mark of a true professional is KNOWING when NOT to draw a gun.
Always remember that by drawing a weapon you have just turned a dangerous situation into a deadly one - so you had better bloody well know how to use it.

If anyone has any questions about this ask Peter Blake, oh wait he is dead. (Famous round the world sailor that was shot and killed in the Amazon after he tried to pull a gun on armed robbers, interestingly they did not kill the rest of the crew, witnesses, they just fled the scene)

[MarineHawk]

Originally Posted by Andy C

The mark of a true professional is KNOWING when NOT to draw a gun.
Always remember that by drawing a weapon you have just turned a dangerous situation into a deadly one - so you had better bloody well know how to use it.

If anyone has any questions about this ask Peter Blake, oh wait he is dead. (Famous round the world sailor that was shot and killed in the Amazon after he tried to pull a gun on armed robbers, interestingly they did not kill the rest of the crew, witnesses, they just fled the scene)

Your assertion seems to be in opposition to 800,000 to 2.5 million instances where law abiding citizens use firearms successfully in self defense in the U.S. every year. Note: Most estimates are much higher. 14 studies fell between 800,000 and 2.5m; one study, the lowest by far, was 108,000.
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html
http://www.gunsandcrime.org/dgufreq.html

Even 108,000 (and even ABC News acknowledged that the number was higher) is an awful lot of non-weird-rainforest incidents and many times higher than the total number of murders comitted in the U.S. every year.

As far as anectdotes, how about the time when a New Orleans resident pulled into his driveway in the mid-90s and there was a strange van in his driveway and his wife inside. [At the time, the average response time to a 911 call in N.O. was 38 minutes (I lived there and had NOPD members in my Marine Resurve unit)]. At that point, [1] he could wait who knows how long for the cops while they molest/kill his wife; [2] run in unarmed; or [3] go in there and kill the intruders. Fortunately, he chose option [3]. He saved his wife from certain tragedy.
He quickly drew his pistol and entered through the front door. He found three large men inside along with his nude wife tied to a chair. [She hadn't been raped yet.] He fired. He killed one; inured another; and pursued the third out the door. The intruders were armed and at least one was a convicted rapist (released, of course). By not "cooperating" with these guys, he saved himself and wife from some pretty serious tragedy. That kind of story happens a lot more often than the weird rain-forest stuff.

[PARAGON]

Originally Posted by Andy C

The mark of a true professional is KNOWING when NOT to draw a gun.
Always remember that by drawing a weapon you have just turned a dangerous situation into a deadly one - so you had better bloody well know how to use it.

If anyone has any questions about this ask Peter Blake, oh wait he is dead. (Famous round the world sailor that was shot and killed in the Amazon after he tried to pull a gun on armed robbers, interestingly they did not kill the rest of the crew, witnesses, they just fled the scene)

Has nothing to do with professionalism. It's maintenance of life. You can never assume what someone is going to do. You don't risk yours or anyone else's life on the possibility that someone just wants your wallet. They might want the path of least resistance and take your "property" and then take your life so that there is no witnesses.

Proper employment of any weapon is a responsibility and has to be gauged by the situation. If you are willing to simply shoot someone because you can get away with it because they pointed a gun at you, then you shouldn't carry. But, sorry, if you THINK that is all that is going to occur, your chance of death in the event he chooses to kill you is 100%.

Inaction is a choice, just as choosing to shoot a badguy is. Inaction carries it's own responsibilities just as shooting someone does. Yes, making the right decisions on WHEN to act is just as important as the type of action.

Racer, in all honesty. IMO you need to re-evaluate your need to carry a gun. You have plenty of time to think these things through right now aforehand and you are second guessing the shoot/no shoot situation. I'm sorry, but the simple truth is that if you have a gun pointed at you, and unless you are 100% positive that person is not going to shoot you or another person, you have to shoot that person. You cannot guess what their actions are going to be.

I'll put it in a different perspective. If it was some grungy guy with a gun to your head and he was simply asking for your wife's purse, how can you assume he is not attempting to gain keys or something to a vehicle so he can kidnap her to take her and rape her.

[PARAGON]

Wierd,

Two Marines posting the exact same time about wive's getting hurt scenarios

[Racer-X]

Originally Posted by PARAGON

Racer, in all honesty. IMO you need to re-evaluate your need to carry a gun. You have plenty of time to think these things through right now aforehand and you are second guessing the shoot/no shoot situation. I'm sorry, but the simple truth is that if you have a gun pointed at you, and unless you are 100% positive that person is not going to shoot you or another person, you have to shoot that person. You cannot guess what their actions are going to be.

I'm seeing your point. So how am I better off without a gun? If he's going to shoot me for his next crack rock - which is better - to be unarmed or hesitating to pull and shoot?

I think this is where the class will come into play. All of your views are changing my thoughts on what I would do. The class would likely further that, no?

I'll put it in a different perspective. If it was some grungy guy with a gun to your head and he was simply asking for your wife's purse, how can you assume he is not attempting to gain keys or something to a vehicle so he can kidnap her to take her and rape her.

Point taken Edited to add: I think I would react very differently with my wife or kids around.

[MarineHawk]

I agree with Para on this and his previous comments. If the guy is about to shoot you you anyway, acting quickly, drawing, and firing a shot or more into his mid section, will give you a very good chance of survival - approximately infinitely better than just sitting there and taking the hit.

If he's hesitant and unsure what to do himself - even more so. The vast majority of armed criminal IMO are cowards. If you act decisively, calmly, quickly, and intellligently in deploying your weapon, you should come out on top more than 90% of the time.

One illustration that draws on what Para was saying is that more than 85% of rounds fired in police shootouts (I think this is correct; I can't recall the specific numbers - someone help me if you know) miss their target. Keep in mind that (again I think this is correct) more than 80% of those shootouts occur at a distance of less than 10 feet!

Thus the victor isn't usually or necessarily the best marksman, the fastest one, or even the one who gets the head start - it's most often the one who is determined to respond and does so as calmly and proficiently as possible. As part of that training formal or otherwise at hitting moving targets quickly and thinking about what you will do in a given situation ahead of time is critical. If you act decisively and don't freak out, you'll win most of the time even if the other guy has the drop on you. As a concealed carrier, you have the element of surprise, and they don't know what you're going to do or when you're going to do it. in some sense, it's an advantage if you act effectively.

I might disagree with the others about the pocket issue. I have a small auto in my pocket often when I woulnd't have anything if I had to have a holster. If it's hot and I'm wearing shorts and a shirt tucked in, I'm not going to wear a jacket or untuck my shirt so that I can carry. I just put my thin holstered .380 in my pocket. (Note, as I said earlier, I'd put my Glock or H&K in a holster or quick opening camera case or something if I was expecting to walk around East St. Louis or Detroit or something)
One advantage to the pocket approach is that if someone is walking near you, and you sense a possible threat but really don't know, but don't want to reach for a holstered weapon, just stick your hand in your pocket. At that point, drawing and firing takes about 0.3 seconds.

Originally Posted by PARAGON

It was clear the first time and you didn't change things. How do you know the person pointing the gun doesn't subscribe to the same principles that was iterated to you above about pointing a gun at someone that you don't intend to kill.

Why take the chance? Again, if you are not comfortable in pulling and using a handgun in that situation, you do not need to seek it's use as personal protection. You are simply looking for additional trouble that you don't want. That is the one time in your life you would most assuredly want that protection, yet you state you wouldn't make use of it. Someone is pointing a gun at you, you can't assume they are NOT going to shoot you. THAT'S asking to get shot.

[Aubs]

I think this would scare anyone: Just walk around with a particle accelerator on your back, and aim it at anything that moves...

[PARAGON]

Originally Posted by MarineHawk

I might disagree with the others about the pocket issue. I have a small auto in my pocket often when I woulnd't have anything if I had to have a holster. If it's hot and I'm wearing shorts and a shirt tucked in, I'm not going to wear a jacket or untuck my shirt so that I can carry. I just put my thin holstered .380 in my pocket. (Note, as I said earlier, I'd put my Glock or H&K in a holster or quick opening camera case or something if I was expecting to walk around East St. Louis or Detroit or something)
One advantage to the pocket approach is that if someone is walking near you, and you sense a possible threat but really don't know, but don't want to reach for a holstered weapon, just stick your hand in your pocket. At that point, drawing and firing takes about 0.3 seconds.

I would suggest one of these. You can stick a full-sized in there (especially since you are a small-penised Hummer owner ) and it still not print. As long as you don't have an old style 1911 or something that snags bad, it is pretty smooth to pull from.

It's perfect for something like the sk or even a G23.

http://www.smartcarry.com/scbrochure.pdf

[MarineHawk]

Originally Posted by PARAGON

I would suggest one of these. You can stick a full-sized in there (especially since you are a small-penised Hummer owner ) and it still not print. As long as you don't have an old style 1911 or something that snags bad, it is pretty smooth to pull from.

It's perfect for something like the sk or even a G23.

http://www.smartcarry.com/scbrochure.pdf

It helps that I wear my pants like this:

[Mrs.ssippi]

Originally Posted by MarineHawk

It helps that I wear my pants like this:

A good friend of ours works SWAT in Kansas City MO, and he said he loves it that the bad "guys" wear their pants like that. He said you know when they are going to run, because they pause to pull them up, and then they run. Works great for them and gives them a few seconds.

[Racer-X]

Note: NO sarcasm in this post whatsoever - Just real questions.

Scenario - thug with a gun 6' away pointing between my eyes. If I have a gun in my pocket I should try to pull it?

I would think my chances would be better if I cooperated. Atleast until I felt I had an oppourtunity to pull when and IF the situation allowed it.

For me it would depend on what he wanted. If he wanted my wallet, he can have it. I would never take someones life to protect my property.

On the other hand if I thought he simply wanted me dead or had mental issues I would likely take my chances and draw. It all depends on the situation.

MarineHawks scenario of putting my hand in my pocket when I feel something is out of place is a good point. I can't tell you how many times I would have loved to be able to do that.

I think it's a good idea if I get into some kind of class that addresses these issues and I will. Can't say I have time to practice with the thing every month but I'll certainly spend as much time as possible learning to use it proficiently. Would be fun anyway.

Pepper spray and Tazers have uses, they are great in a fist fight but I wouldn't want to use either in a gun fight.

BTW - I bet I would get fairly good at close quarters snap shooting really quick. I've played paintball almost all of my adult life at a tournament level. I know a firearm is different but in many ways it is very similar. Reaction time is reaction time.

[MarineHawk]

Originally Posted by Racer-X

Scenario - thug with a gun 6' away pointing between my eyes. If I have a gun in my pocket I should try to pull it?

Stand there motionless except for pulling the gun? No.

Move quckly out of his line as you pull the gun and fire while moving laterally? Yes.

It's unlikely he's going to have the immediate reaction to shoot before the 1/20th of a second elapses and your head leaves his sight line. Even then, he probably won't be able to keep his aim on you and also be able to realize that you are deploying a weapon. A million thoughts are going through his head. "What should I do? Is he running away? should I let him go? Is he a threat? Does he have enough money in his wallet to risk a murder charge?" Only two are going through yours. Move and fire; move and fire. IMO opinino your chances of surviving if you act effectively are greater than they are at correctly guessing whether or not he just wants your wallet or your life as well.

Modify the scenario a bit though. What if you're with your wife/sister/son/mother/girlfriend/etc. ? Going to "cooperate" then? Leave a violent criminal with total control over a loved one?

[Racer-X]

What do you guys think of this place?

http://www.frontsight.com/index.asp