Terrorists dont use credit to buy WMD!?!?

[CO Hummer]

Originally Posted by MarineHawk

I personally have not, and I do not know anyone who has, lost any freedoms here. What ?freedoms? have we lost?

How about "due process"? How about protection from illegal search and seizure?

[bparker]

I dont want to get started on this because I know hes a Jar Head that puts his life on the line for us - BUT - when I saw the MP take all the guns away from the private citizens hands INSIDE thier own houses leaving them defenseless against looters when hurricane katrina hit I almost lost it.

Originally Posted by CO Hummer

How about "due process"? How about protection from illegal search and seizure?

[MarineHawk]

Originally Posted by bparker

I dont want to get started on this because I know hes a Jar Head that puts his life on the line for us - BUT - when I saw the MP take all the guns away from the private citizens hands INSIDE thier own houses leaving them defenseless against looters when hurricane katrina hit I almost lost it.

I agree with you there. I'm just talking about the anti-terror-related snooping.

[KenP]

Originally Posted by CO Hummer

How about "due process"? How about protection from illegal search and seizure?

CO Hummer is a terrorist! (tags: radical, muslim, bomb, alf, elf, peta, fertilizer, plane, lessons, jihad, cleric, fear, poppy, WTC, gecko, camel jockey, infidel, UBL, dirty, uranium, iraq, quran, butt sex, afganistan, ied)

I have no problems with the Gov't checking people out. I've got nothing to hide.

[DennisAJC]

Originally Posted by KenP

I have no problems with the Gov't checking people out. I've got nothing to hide.

I peeked under your matress when I stayed there last year.

[MarineHawk]

Originally Posted by CO Hummer

How about "due process"? How about protection from illegal search and seizure?

I just don't see those rights as I understand them to have been violated.

4th amend't says: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

I'm just not aware of any unreasonable searches. Maybe there have been some. I just can't fathom how we would have defeated some of the powerful enemies we conquered in the past, such as the Nazis or Imperial Japan, if we had been complaining about the government looking at our library cards. In that situation, the government was rationing basic necessities and (as was necessary) drafting and forcing young men out of their private lives in the MILLIONS to don a uniform and risk, and in 400,000 cases, lose their lives. It seems that worring about the government looking at credit reports seem so, so insignificant in comparison - such a minor intrusion, if there is any chance it could help us defeat our enemies or save any of the lives of our civiliians or troops.

[bparker]

Since you like links

Second paragraph:
http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...0603210744.asp

Originally Posted by MarineHawk

I just don't see those rights as I understand them to have been violated.

4th amend't says: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

I'm just not aware of any unreasonable searches. Maybe there have been some. I just can't fathom how we would have defeated some of the powerful enemies we conquered in the past, such as the Nazis or Imperial Japan, if we had been complaining about the government looking at our library cards. In that situation, the government was rationing basic necessities and (as was necessary) drafting and forcing young men out of their private lives in the MILLIONS to don a uniform and risk, and in 400,000 cases, lose their lives. It seems that worring about the government looking at credit reports seem so, so insignificant in comparison - such a minor intrusion, if there is any chance it could help us defeat our enemies or save any of the lives of our civiliians or troops.

[bparker]

Yep, as lung as wares "secure" lettem dew wut they wunt!

[CO Hummer]

Originally Posted by bparker

Yep, as lung as wares "secure" lettem dew wut they wunt!

Reminds of a chat a had with a guy in the airline industry while at DFW. He was in town to give a lecture. The theme of his lecture was the myth of airline security. He went into details about a test they ran where they tried to smuggling illegal objects past the TSA.

Attempts: 21
Successfully Smuggled in: 21.

Nice. But hey, at least we're "secure"!

[MarineHawk]

Originally Posted by bparker

Second paragraph:
http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...0603210744.asp

I agree. I just don't think that our government's excess in that situation translates to all others.

[CO Hummer]

Originally Posted by MarineHawk

I just don't see those rights as I understand them to have been violated.

4th amend't says: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

I'm just not aware of any unreasonable searches. Maybe there have been some. I just can't fathom how we would have defeated some of the powerful enemies we conquered in the past, such as the Nazis or Imperial Japan, if we had been complaining about the government looking at our library cards. In that situation, the government was rationing basic necessities and (as was necessary) drafting and forcing young men out of their private lives in the MILLIONS to don a uniform and risk, and in 400,000 cases, lose their lives. It seems that worring about the government looking at credit reports seem so, so insignificant in comparison - such a minor intrusion, if there is any chance it could help us defeat our enemies or save any of the lives of our civiliians or troops.

Don't argue with me. Take it to the founding fathers.

A lot of what they established is totally lost. But heck, we have a Starbucks on every corner so it can't be that bad, right?

[bparker]

And dont forget the illegal mexicants on every corner we really need them too.

Originally Posted by CO Hummer

Don't argue with me. Take it to the founding fathers.

A lot of what they established is totally lost. But heck, we have a Starbucks on every corner so it can't be that bad, right?

[MarineHawk]

Originally Posted by CO Hummer

Don't argue with me. Take it to the founding fathers.

A lot of what they established is totally lost. But heck, we have a Starbucks on every corner so it can't be that bad, right?

I hate Starbucks because of their gun control contributions. We need to start a new chain of NRA cafes.

In case it's at issue, to justify the WWII comparison, one thing that is important to me is that, in WWII, our enemies were pretty much out in the open. Our intellegence efforts were important and, greatfully, effective, but we were basically fighting our enemies' carriers, battleships, and the thousands of tanks and aircraft their millions of troops fielded against us. Our current enemies have little or no power without the benefit of remaining hidden. They cannot possibly hope to harm us in the open. We win, if at all, by uncovering them. That's why our efforts to uncover them is more imprtant now than in any conflict we have ever faced.

[CO Hummer]

Originally Posted by Benjamin Franklin in 1759

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

I agree Ben. You should tell this to Marinehawk!

[MarineHawk]

Originally Posted by CO Hummer

I agree Ben. You should tell this to Marinehawk!

I agree too Ben. As I suggested in my comments about the Saudis, I just think of essential liberties as things like the ability to, as we are doing here, criticize our government and also things like the protections against unreasonable searches; the ability to practice or criticize whatever religion we want; due process; etc ... I just don't think Ben was characterizing the right to not have your credit report looked at as an "Essential Liberty." I'm pretty sure he was talking about serious infringements on essential rights. I imagine Ben would not go for general martial law and suspension of the 1st and 4th amendments to fight this war. I doubt he'd care if someone looked as his or anyone's credit history.

[CO Hummer]

Originally Posted by MarineHawk

I just don't think Ben was characterizing the right to not have your credit report looked at as an "Essential Liberty."

I agree with you. I'm not convinced that protection of credit information is an essential liberty.

HOWEVER........

All would, on paper, agree that we should not give up "essential liberties". But I think bparker's idea here is that no one asks the question about what an "essential liberty" is. The government is given unquestioned trust and a blank checkbook to do whatever it wants. All you have to do is whisper "in the interest of national security" and everyone is expected to shut their mouth and accept whatever they do.

[MarineHawk]

"This Court has gone far toward accepting the doctrine that civil liberty means the removal of all restraints from these crowds and that all local attempts to maintain order are impairments of the liberty of the citizen. The choice is not between order and liberty. It is between liberty with order and anarchy without either. There is danger that, if the Court does not temper its doctrinaire logic with a little practical wisdom, it will convert the constitutional Bill of Rights into a suicide pact."

U.S. Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson - Terminiello v. Chicago, 1949.

[Bully13]

Originally Posted by MarineHawk

I hate Starbucks because of their gun control contributions. We need to start a new chain of NRA cafes.

AHOY Cafe?

[DennisAJC]

Originally Posted by Bully13

AHOY Cafe?

AAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!