German Jeep or American Land Rover

[SJ]

I was looking at a 1997 Land Rover D90 over the weekend (with no desire to replace the H2) and comparing it to a new Jeep Wrangler Rubicon. Price is roughly the same given a possible discount on the D90.

So my question is:Do you consider one, both, or neither brands to be American?

Jeep has American heritage, but is a Daimler-Chrysler product [German]. The dual HQ structure is now kaputt! Car and Driver and Four Wheeler are among the many media sources that note the increased German influence. The CEO is German, the Board is almost entirely German, and the ultimate decision of which products to produce resides in Germany. Further, the Liberty and Grand will both get Mercedes derived Diesel options in years to come. So the USA is relegated to being an assembler of Jeep products and providing parts/components in seemingly decreasing scope. Ultimately, the intellectual or "brain" input (as some journalists have described it) for Jeep, has shifted from a largely American base to a German affair.

Land Rover has British heritage, but is now a Ford product. So, although this D90 represents a used product [2nd market], the thought of a new Land Rover translates to revenue in the coffers of an American corporation.

Daimler-Chrysler and Ford call themselves multinationals, but I still like to make purchases based on a sense of loyalty and nationalism.

I'm curious to read how other H2 owners view Jeep and Land Rover from an economic and nationailstic standpoint. Last and for the record; I like both marques.

[SJ]

I was looking at a 1997 Land Rover D90 over the weekend (with no desire to replace the H2) and comparing it to a new Jeep Wrangler Rubicon. Price is roughly the same given a possible discount on the D90.

So my question is:Do you consider one, both, or neither brands to be American?

Jeep has American heritage, but is a Daimler-Chrysler product [German]. The dual HQ structure is now kaputt! Car and Driver and Four Wheeler are among the many media sources that note the increased German influence. The CEO is German, the Board is almost entirely German, and the ultimate decision of which products to produce resides in Germany. Further, the Liberty and Grand will both get Mercedes derived Diesel options in years to come. So the USA is relegated to being an assembler of Jeep products and providing parts/components in seemingly decreasing scope. Ultimately, the intellectual or "brain" input (as some journalists have described it) for Jeep, has shifted from a largely American base to a German affair.

Land Rover has British heritage, but is now a Ford product. So, although this D90 represents a used product [2nd market], the thought of a new Land Rover translates to revenue in the coffers of an American corporation.

Daimler-Chrysler and Ford call themselves multinationals, but I still like to make purchases based on a sense of loyalty and nationalism.

I'm curious to read how other H2 owners view Jeep and Land Rover from an economic and nationailstic standpoint. Last and for the record; I like both marques.

[Mike97ZJ]

Jeep is American, and Land Rover is British.

It won't always been that way, but Daimler hasn't ruined Jeep just yet.

Rover is already on the downward slide to Ford-dom though, which is too bad. You can see that the same thing has happened to Jaguar.

The D90 rules though, and is all British. Same thing with the Rubi, it's all American.

[SJ]

Mike:

I think I asked you when you first came here - if you felt Jeep was becoming German. The reason my curiosity arose was because of a certain troll we had here. He seemed to be oblivious to the changes in the automotive world.

I'm a fan of both marques and I consider Jeep to be American/German and Landies British/American.

[DiscoDancingRover]

I would say that Land Rovers are british and jeeps are american at heart. That is their origion, where they were orinally produced. Same thing, would you concider a volvo, saab, aston martin, mitsubishi, or Jaguar american. They are all owned by american companies. Oh yea and by the way get the d-90, it is better off-road, more room, bigger tires stock, and you will rarely see one around!

[MAC]

A friend of mine recently bought a Dell laptop and he was very proud of the fact that he has a Texas made computer, he called in the order, Dell made it for him right there and FedEx to him in a few days. Through trade publications and business contacts, I know Dell buys millions of laptops from Taiwan, he refuses to believe that his laptop is actually designed and made in Taiwan. Of course, it is entirely possible that his laptop was made by an American worker sitting in Texas, while millions of other Dell customers got the Taiwan made laptops.

My Masonic lodge voted to buy a new laptop not long ago, but few older gentlemen added an amendment that it must be an American made computer. That was really a problem, because there is no such thing, but thanks to smart American marketing, everybody thinks IBM, Dell, HP and Apple are American made. In the end, everyone is happy.

[SJ]

MAC:

I bought a Dell for the same reason as your friend - it is an American company. However, unlike your friend, many of us are aware that assembly takes place in Taiwan. All one has to do is flip the laptop over and read the bottom and it reads "Made in Taiwan," but I'd still rather support Dell, HP, or IBM, than give my money to Toshiba or Sony.

Even though the laptop is assembled in Taiwan, at least I've helped subsidize and strengthen an American company, rather than give market share and revenue to a Japanese brand.

It's like when my European relatives come and visit the U.S. They cannot believe how many Japanese cars are on our roads. They have an image of the U.S. as a powerful and industrious nation and the scores of Toyotas tend to kill that image. Forget that Toyota assembles some cars in the States - the cars/trucks are still Japanese name brands and that's what carries weight. I'd rather support Ford or GM and empower an American company and their ability to gain market share.

[MAC]

Years ago, you know where you are just by looking at the cars on the road. In France, 99% were French cars, Italy, UK, Germany, etc... Except Switzerland which does not make automobile, thus consumers made their choices freely, Swiss had large number of Japanese cars. Nowadays with the Euro market, Japanese cars are everywhere. I do not buy Japanese cars for personal reasons, but I am a strong believer of a free world market where the strongest and the best win.

In the '90s, my firm buys 6 million pens a year from a Montana company, while our plan B and C showed me that I would make $300K extra a year if I move production overseas. I kept the production in USA, because I knew if I leave it would have dealt a serious blow to that company and that entire town. A few years back we lost some major contracts on these pens, the Montana supplier had no choice but to supply the same pens to the competitor who took away our contracts. In return, I moved production to Spain and later set up production in China to fill in the demand; consequently we had new & lowered prices, the competitor lost the contracts back to us, the Montana people lost it all. It is a battle out there, every single day. You cannot stop the world from turning. My decision to keep production in the US costed me dearly, I was soft and weak, I will not make the same mistake again.

[Hummer Man]

Mac, I don't buy Japanese either for just basice principles. That being said let's face it . The Japanese auto makers are all building their vehicles in the US now with US workers and are using parts made out of this country at the same percentage as the HUMMER H2. Their is not a GM product made that is not getting major components outside of the country!

Truth be told when we were kids Mac - MADE IN JAPAN meant cheap poor quality.
Today it means it will last forever! My sister has a Honda Accord that has 400,000 miles on it - it runs perfect! She is in love with the car and could afford any car she wants but chooses HONDA. You will never see a HUMMER H2 with that kind of mileage - They just will not last that long - as much as I hate to say it!

[SJ]

Hummer Man:

I had a '81 Chevy Blazer w/ 260K on the engnie and tranny when I sold it.

The Guinness book has a Cadillac as holding the mileage record for a single engine (i.e. most miles w/o rebuild). The overall record is a VW bug, but it had multiple rebuilds.

So, I disagree - my American cars/trucks have flat-out kicked the heck out of some Japanese products that friends own [as far as reliability and longevity]. It's partially luck o' the draw and part care.

[MAC]

I love big American cars. My first American car was a black 94 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham, the biggest car, period. The trunk was big enough for 3 bodies, was told that is/was Mafia's favorite car. Beautiful, big, powerful, reliable and cheap.

After 20+ years German and British cars, premium gas and high maintence cost, I was absolutely shocked and overjoyed with the regular gas and cheap service cost, $1000 vs $25, that was the difference. It was super powerful like an ICBM, step on the gas, it shoots out, love the big brutal American engine, very different from the European "refined" engines. Big and soft inside vs the hard MB leather. It was reliable, just drive and drive and drive, forgot to change oil? who cares? I looked at a new 96 Cadi Fleetwood after I saw it on TV news in another country where it is used as Presidential limos(still is), I said to myself, "I gotta get myself one of those!" When friends and family found out, everyone was horrified, "how can you buy an American car?", they talked me out of it, and it was discontinued in '96. I could not get it out of my mind, took me 2 years of daily checking the ads to find a black one, honestly, daily checking. It was cheap, another beauty of American cars.

I sold it to a Hispanic gentleman from Fresno, whom have been searching for this exact black Fleetwood for 2-3 years, it was perfect match for him and bought it sight unseen. I am very happy it is in the hands of a new loving owner. Wonder if he lower the Fleetwood? why not? I would love to see it.

Hummer is my 2nd American auto. I think I will stay with American cars from now on.

[MAC]

If anyone is interested, in the current issue of TIME, there is a special report on "Why the most profitable cars made in the USA are Japanese and German."

So here's the mystery: if foreign-based companies like Nissan — along with BMW, Honda and Toyota — are building more vehicles in American factories, using American workers and American suppliers, and selling the vehicles to Americans for a good profit, why aren't DaimlerChrysler, Ford and General Motors doing the same? Last year the Big Three collectively lost money on car sales in North America (and earned a mere 1.8% profit on overall sales). Honda and Nissan earned higher margins and record profits, and Toyota is expected to post similar results.

The stock explanation for this situation is that the foreign makers pay their U.S. workers less in wages and benefits than do the Big Three. But that answer is wrong; the compensation is roughly equivalent. The real reasons for the transplants' success are much more interesting and instructive: more efficient manufacturing systems, better labor relations, more collaborative relationships with suppliers, lower "legacy" costs for retirees' pensions and health benefits, and hard-earned reputations for quality.

http://www.time.com/time/globalbusin...451002,00.html

[Hummer Man]

Just read the article - The bottom line is that their quality is persumed to be better and they don't have to cut prices as much.

"FORUM FOUNDING MEMBER 11/03/02 - #1 H2 SITE"

[MichiganK9SAR]

I am curious why people think that just because DCX is HQ'd in Germany, that every profit made goes solely to the German economy. And why should buying a Toshiba laptop be immoral? Because it wasn't MADE here?

I'm sorry friend, but America is no longer the industrial manufactoring powerhouse it once was. We're consumerists. And if you think that buying a Ford over a Mercedes improves our economy, I think you're wrong.

Automotive and computer makers both are international companies, their stocks traded throughout the world. The only way you could say that DCX was a German company, would be if DCX was owned by the German government. It is instead owned by its stockholders. I own DCX stock, but consider myself America.

I used to own a Honda Accord. Very nice car...until it runs out of oil. Actually, I broke down with a crack in my oil pan (hit a rock or something). I walked to the nearest farmhouse to use the telephone. The man let me use his phone but told me "I'd help you with your car, but you see I'm from the world war II generation, and have a hard time helping someone who supports Japan".

As ignorant as that old man's statement was, it really is not far off from what has been said here.

[Klaus]

If you had been in that old man's shoes 60 years ago, you might have a different opinion.

If you were bombed and shot at, I'm sure you would be "ignorant" as well.

Klaus

"God made some men big and some men small, but Sam Colt made them all equal."

[SJ]

Michigan K9SAR:

It's more than just being based in Germany:

1. DC's CEO is German
2. DC's Board is mostly German
3. German's CONTROL the products that will be funded for development and offered to consumers.
4. Wall Street Journal, Business Week, and other Biz publications rank DC as German when they do their annual International rankings. Ford & GM are American.
5. Intellectual or 1st-tier input into the products is increasingly a German affair for DC Products.
6. More DC parts are Mercedes sourced - engine for new Jeep CRD Diesel option as one example.

There's no need to debate; when the USA becomes relegated to a 2nd-tier producer then maybe some day you'll understand. The attitude that "it doesn't matter," is something I can't relate to. You're entitled to spend your hard-earned dollars how you see fit - that's the American way.

I have my convictions and that's all there is to it. I'm far from ignorant on the matter, given that even industry experts and professors will debate over how "Buying American Brands Helps the Economy."

I refuse to proliferate a Japanese brand. Taken one step further, if nobody cared about buying American, then we'd have a nation with all foreign brands. How proud can you be when tourists come to America and all they see is Toyota, Volkswagen, etc.? It'd be a sad day to know that the USA is reduced to a 2nd-tier producer for other people's products.

[MAC]

Emotionally I may agree with SJ to certain points, but patriotism has been proven not effective in protecting or promoting any nation’s industry. Extreme patriotism or protectionism is a game everyone can play, driven by national pride, the only response from targeted nations is to return the barriers with barriers of their own. When practiced in the past, lead to hot wars, trade wars and Depression.

Past wars and hatred also proved not to be long lasting. Japanese products are ever popular in China and China is one of Japan’s biggest market, second only to USA; Jewish owned businesses remain some of the biggest buyers of German made products, likewise as German car buyers. Last I read, Germany is Israel’s No.1 trading partner.

In the ‘70s and ‘80s, faced with the threat of reliable Japanese and German cars, American auto makers reinvented themselves to be highly productive with reliable and desirable automobiles. At a point in the ‘90s, American automakers actually surpassed the Japanese in productivity and quality (in few cases). That is the beauty of free enterprise and business competition. With no competition, we got fat and lazy; as in personal and business life, we get sharp and lean when faced with danger and competitions. .

That is the nature of free enterprise and free market, they are interdependent with the free and democratic society. All these are not my invention or fantasy but proven economic theory, and clearly stated in far better elegance in the recent best selling book “Commanding Heights” and the PBS 4 hours series “Commanding Heights”. It talks about and compares the difference between a free market and centrally controlled communist economies and how the West won, the Cold War was won by the free market system, not by the armies nor the bombers or ICBMs. It also discusses the deregulations within the US, UK and Europe in the past 2 decades.

Politicians talk about protecting our industries and workers with trade barriers during the elections, but none of them actually do anything about it once elected, because they know the talk gets votes but it cannot be done responsibly and selectively.

Just my humble opinion.

[DennisAJC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MAC:
If anyone is interested, in the current issue of TIME, there is a special report on "Why the most profitable cars made in the USA are Japanese and German."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Toyota Camary in Japan is worth approx.$8500US

Toyota Camary in USA is worth approx.$17000US

Camary is considered low-mid end in Japan
Camary is considered Luxury in USA

It's a shame but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who is getting the shaft and why we have such disgruntled patriots like SJ.

He ain't heavy.....
He's ma HUMMER baby!
03 NUDE Pewter Lux H2
03 Dressed Range Rover